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ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:24 am

longhauler wrote:
I honestly think a lot of people go here misunderstand what ETOPS certification actually means.

If this 777 is ETOPS 180 certified, it means it has met certain standards that allows it to fly up to 180 minutes from a suitable landing site. Things like necessary equipment, maintenance and MEL restrictions, cargo smoke detection and suppression standards, pilot and airline licensing requirements, etc.

“I know that” cuing the eye rolls.

What is DOESN’T mean, is that the aircraft is capable of suppressing, solving, fixing, etc. EVERY possible emergency for 180 minutes. If an on board emergency presented itself, the pilots don’t just lean back, relaxing saying ...... ahhh, there’s no hurry, we have 180 minutes. Think say, cabin fire, medical emergency, fumes/smoke, uncontrollable engine fire, etc.

That is why the actual pilots on here are curious about what was actually going on in the cockpit of that airplane. But ..... the CVR may never be public, the FAA may be satisfied, Delta may be happy with the performance of the pilots and no further action will be taken. So relax kids, there’s a very good chance you’ll never know!

People understand just fine.

The point is so do the pilots. They know that if it’s a simple compressor stall, they have plenty of time to tool around in a hold at 8000, dumping fuel, communicating with ATC, planning approach. That situation is not a get it down yesterday situation that allows them to violate public safety rules.

So everyone wants to know what the event was that would make 4 experienced pilots act in such a manner, not communicating with ATC and dumping fuel at a low altitude.

As others have pointed out, they could have dumped over the valley above 6000 net altitude (the northern areas of calabasas all being well under 1500ft elevation and all other points being lower).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
luv2cattlecall
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:25 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:31 am

Looks like the aircraft is still at LAX.
Is it normal for such a long AOG period after a compressor stall?
 
ryanov
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:23 am

No one who was not on that airplane (except maybe those that interviewed them afterwards, if that happened) can know what they could have or could not have done. After 11 pages, that seems pretty clear.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:43 am

ryanov wrote:
No one who was not on that airplane (except maybe those that interviewed them afterwards, if that happened) can know what they could have or could not have done. After 11 pages, that seems pretty clear.


You're right. We have a mix -- about half of the posts are from knee-jerk reaction posters who think the pilots failed miserably without knowing any facts. And about half are from pilots / fellow union members who will defend the pilots without knowing any facts. Neither is credible and I guess they cancel each other out.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:24 am

There are news articles that say that DL89 dumped 15,000 gallons of fuel. Is that an exact figure that the South Coast Air Quality Management District was able to get from Delta? Or did they just guess that amount?

If that is an accurate number, then you can calculate the approx number of minutes that the fuel dump was going on.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:48 pm

In all seriousness, can someone tell me what a fuel dump feels like on the ground in this scenario? Is it like a light rain shower, torrential rain, a misting or a sheet of liquid that hits quickly?
 
BA777FO
Posts: 580
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:44 pm

IPFreely wrote:
ryanov wrote:
No one who was not on that airplane (except maybe those that interviewed them afterwards, if that happened) can know what they could have or could not have done. After 11 pages, that seems pretty clear.


You're right. We have a mix -- about half of the posts are from knee-jerk reaction posters who think the pilots failed miserably without knowing any facts. And about half are from pilots / fellow union members who will defend the pilots without knowing any facts. Neither is credible and I guess they cancel each other out.


As a current 777 pilot with nearly 4,500 hours on type I'm not one of those defending the pilots. There are many flawed posts in this thread but here are some facts:

• Just because an aircraft is ETOPS 180 certified doesn't mean you should fly around for 3 hours in the event you develop a technical issue.
• Unless your emergency involves smoke, fire, fumes or a fuel leak there's no compulsion to land as soon as possible. There is no indication that any of those conditons existed for this crew.
• They were airborne for what, 17 minutes? That's barely enough time to run a decision making tool. I imagine Delta uses one, any western airline worth its salt would use one. There was little time dedicated to diagnosis and therefore no option generation. How much of an approach brief was conducted in that time? Guessing virtually none.
• No NITS brief or equivilent to ATC, and if they didn't do one to ATC I wonder if they even communicated to the cabin crew at all.
• They didn't "cage their chimp" - The Chimp Model was alive and well in this example and airline crews are trained to avoid exactly this because it leads to rushed decisions and mistakes get made. These mistakes are what usually end up aliging the holes in the proverbial swiss cheese.
• The aircraft could land overweight, but unless there is a chance of immediate hull loss (such as smoke, fire, fumes or main tank fuel leak, or included in this, a soul onboard requiring immediate medical attention) there are virtually no other situations that warrant it. Jettisoning to MLW would have perhaps taken 30 minutes in this case - a perfect amount of time to run that decision making tool and properly brief the approach. Landing at the MTOW or TOPL would result in the brakes entering the caution or fuse plug melt zone, this presents a potentially serious situation to manage after landing.

The Eng Surge/Lim/Stall checklist has memory items. After they were complete, the rest of the ECL should have been run, I imagine it was. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Once the ECL was complete and the aircraft was stable and climbing, navigate to somewhere to run a TDODAR or decision making tool. This stage wasn't run, hence a rushed approach and jettison on final approach. There was plenty of airspace over the Pacific where a jettison could have taken place. Communicate: with ATC, let them know what the problem is, what your intentions are, how much time/track miles to touchdown you need and let them know of any special instructions. This barely happened and when it did it was muddled and confused. Did they communicate at all to crew or passengers? Their company or engineers for any help with diagnosis or history of issues?

Just because everyone walked away doesn't mean this was as successful as it should have otherwise been. If I was given an engine stall to deal with on my sim check and I flew the scenario like this crew I'd expect to need some retraining before being allowed back on the line. Whatever happens I imagine to be kept in house but I'd be stunned if a few extra sim sessions weren't prescribed or even offered after this.
 
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brianK73
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:47 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Gasoline has Ethanol, one of the worst caustic substance


For your information, a classic vodka composition is usually 40% ethanol by volume.
 
 
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exFWAOONW
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:24 pm

IPFreely wrote:
ryanov wrote:
No one who was not on that airplane (except maybe those that interviewed them afterwards, if that happened) can know what they could have or could not have done. After 11 pages, that seems pretty clear.


You're right. We have a mix -- about half of the posts are from knee-jerk reaction posters who think the pilots failed miserably without knowing any facts. And about half are from pilots / fellow union members who will defend the pilots without knowing any facts. Neither is credible and I guess they cancel each other out.

I'll go with the professionals over the boys typing in their mother's basement, thank you.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:00 pm

The aircraft N860DA is finally scheduled to fly again on Jan 24 LAX to Tokyo. It had not flown since it landed Jan 14.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da

Any guesses why it did not fly for 10 days? Does compressor stall require engine repair/replacement? Or was it due to inspections for overweight landing?
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:07 pm

flybucky wrote:
The aircraft N860DA is finally scheduled to fly again on Jan 24 LAX to Tokyo. It had not flown since it landed Jan 14.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da

Any guesses why it did not fly for 10 days? Does compressor stall require engine repair/replacement? Or was it due to inspections for overweight landing?


Compressor stalls are usually extremely violent the chances the borescope came back negative would be extremely surprising. I’m sure they swapped the engine.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:55 am

Today, N860DA made its first flight since the Jan 14 incident. It's flying from LAX to Paris. Currently about 4 hours into the flight.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:27 pm

Bsowles wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Youtube has many ATC comms recordings, but I doubt there is a single CVR.


Here’s a select choice there’s absolutely tonnes of them:

Delta Airlines flight 191:
https://youtu.be/3ha7oDLZzpw

Dan Air flight 1008:
https://youtu.be/LhBhUzkmo9o

Air Florida flight 90:
https://youtu.be/svly_ElwhxM

Northwest Airlines flight 255:
https://youtu.be/ekMvyMGE9lE

Adam Air flight 574:
https://youtu.be/KgTNkmi8W-4

These next two are probably the two of the most horrifying crashes to be able to listen because both sets of pilots were up against impossible odds and in very different but equally terrifying situations that went on for what must have felt like a lifetime.

This is the full tape of Aeroperu flight 603:
https://youtu.be/oZIjh7d7JmQ

Japan Airlines flight 123:
https://youtu.be/Xfh9-ogUgSQ


That Aeroperu transmission was sickening to hear. Those poor men on the flight deck never had a chance. It’s so disturbing I’m not going to listen to the JAL tape.


I agree, 603 and 123 to me are probably the most horrific non-terrorism related crashes because of the tapes, neither crew had any idea what was going on and that in both scenarios a crash was more or less
inevitable.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8413
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:25 pm

flybucky wrote:
Today, N860DA made its first flight since the Jan 14 incident. It's flying from LAX to Paris. Currently about 4 hours into the flight.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da


10 days to change engine at its own base. I guess all a.net pundit comments in similar situations are applicable.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Bsowles
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:59 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:26 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
Bsowles wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:

Here’s a select choice there’s absolutely tonnes of them:

Delta Airlines flight 191:
https://youtu.be/3ha7oDLZzpw

Dan Air flight 1008:
https://youtu.be/LhBhUzkmo9o

Air Florida flight 90:
https://youtu.be/svly_ElwhxM

Northwest Airlines flight 255:
https://youtu.be/ekMvyMGE9lE

Adam Air flight 574:
https://youtu.be/KgTNkmi8W-4

These next two are probably the two of the most horrifying crashes to be able to listen because both sets of pilots were up against impossible odds and in very different but equally terrifying situations that went on for what must have felt like a lifetime.

This is the full tape of Aeroperu flight 603:
https://youtu.be/oZIjh7d7JmQ

Japan Airlines flight 123:
https://youtu.be/Xfh9-ogUgSQ


That Aeroperu transmission was sickening to hear. Those poor men on the flight deck never had a chance. It’s so disturbing I’m not going to listen to the JAL tape.


I agree, 603 and 123 to me are probably the most horrific non-terrorism related crashes because of the tapes, neither crew had any idea what was going on and that in both scenarios a crash was more or less
inevitable.


I finally did listen to the JAL123 tape. Again, those gentlemen worked the problem the best they could, with upmost professionalism, to the very (horrific) end. I find it amazing that they were able to keep that crippled bird aloft for 32 minutes - with no tail section! To me, that is - again - amazing. About all I could do at the conclusion of the tape was shed a few tears and say a prayer for the flight crew and their families. I hope they are honored in their homeland as much as I honor them, which I’m sure they are. True professionals to the very end! RIP

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