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centrair
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JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:07 am

I saw this post on Twitter of a JAL TU114 from the 1960s.
https://twitter.com/sovietvisuals/statu ... 08/photo/1

Image

The story according to Wikipedia:
"For the Moscow–Tokyo route, Japan Air Lines made an agreement with Aeroflot to use the Tu-114. The flight crew included one JAL member, and the cabin crew consisted of five each from Aeroflot and JAL. The seating was changed to a two-class layout with 105 seats, and the aircraft livery included a small JAL logo and lettering on the forward fuselage. The first flight was on April 17, 1967. In 1969 the Moscow–Tokyo Tu-114 flights ended and the four involved planes converted back to the 200-seat domestic layout."

So why did JAL decide to do this instead of say using one of their DCs?
Was it because the JAL fleet was all American?

There has to be more background to this story. Anyone know?
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
airbuster
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:15 am

I believe KLM also had something to do with it..
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
airbuster
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:20 am

airbuster wrote:
I believe KLM also had something to do with it..


Found something:

KLM goes Ilyushin

For the summer schedule of 1971, the Dutch national airline KLM made a joint venture with Aeroflot on the route from Amsterdam to Tokyo with a stop at Moscow-Sheremetyevo. At the time KLM operated 3 flights a week to Tokyo, using the polar route via Anchorage. The joint venture made it possible to use the Trans-Siberian route, reducing the flight time by 4 hours. (The other two routes, a polar route via Anchorage and the familiar southern route.).

The last time the Dutch used this great circle route was in 1596 when explorers Heemskerk and Barentsz made a failed attempt to go to the far east Asia via the North Pole. Their ship got stuck in the ice near Nova Zembla. Four men of the 16 crew did not survive the harsh winter conditions.

“The new joint flight was operated by Aeroflot Il-62s with an Aeroflot flightcrew and a KLM cabin crew. The KLM personnel were trained to know the peculiarites of working on the Il-62. With some improvisation, the KLM catering material was used as much as possible to give the flight a 'KLM experience'.
On 6 April 1971 Ilyushin 62 CCCP-86652 took off from Amsterdam-Schiphol as KL851 to Tokyo via the Siberian route (AMS-SVO-TYO). The weekly flight was operated on Tuesday. The other two weekly flights to Tokyo were operated by KLM, using the polar route via Anchorage as before.
The Aeroflot - KLM joint venture lasted until 31 October 1972. It would take until 1987 before KLM received permission to fly their own aircraft over Siberia to Tokyo.”

From https://aeroflotarchives.com/ilyushin-il-62.html

It seems a way to control overflight by the soviets at that time.
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juliuswong
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:39 am

Love this. You learn something new every day. Here is some good read I found: https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/2/2017/6/13/141/?h
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Silverstreak
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:00 am

I believe the TU-114 was one of the most beautiful airliners ever built. I have only seen one and it was on display at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport in Moscow. Sadly, shortly after, it went to the crusher. What a waste of this important aircraft in history.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:07 am

Silverstreak wrote:
I believe the TU-114 was one of the most beautiful airliners ever built. I have only seen one and it was on display at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport in Moscow. Sadly, shortly after, it went to the crusher. What a waste of this important aircraft in history.

I agree. It was kind of the 757 of its day.
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hongkongflyer
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:21 am

wow 10 FA to 105 passengers
 
tu204
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:42 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
wow 10 FA to 105 passengers


I'd love to see that the interior configuration at 105 seats!

When standard capacity is 220 and you only put in 105, you are pretty much offering an all Business class cabin so might as well throw in a bunch of FA's. Cabin length is same as a 757 I think, but it is much wider.
 
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Aesma
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:34 am

Wasn't the 114 basically the only aircraft able to do this flight non stop at the time ?
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aw70
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:17 am

Something I've always wondered about the Tu-114... as impressive as its performance (and safety record, for that matter) were, at least for the age it operated in - but that bird was also ridiculously impractical due to the huge distance the fuselage was from the ground.

Now the Soviets had to put a new fuselage on the Tu-95 anyway, in order to make an airliner out of it. Why didn't they alter the configuration to a shoulder wing in the process, to make the resulting airframe more practical? They needed a new fuselage anyway, so why not go for a configuration that actually made sense?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:53 pm

One of the reasons why the Tu-114 was quickly forgotten about once the IL-62 entered international long-haul service, was the appalling cabin noise level that made normal conversation almost impossible for something like half of the fuselage length. That was the price to pay for those massively powerful contra-rotating propellers apparently. The shock waves created huge sound reverberations that shattered the entire airframe.
 
Kilopond
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:22 pm

Here is a video clip from the Dutch newsreel (via Wikipedia with English subtitles):

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... _52883.ogv
 
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Tabito
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:41 pm

tu204 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
wow 10 FA to 105 passengers


I'd love to see that the interior configuration at 105 seats!


Seat Map
https://travel.watch.impress.co.jp/img/trw/docs/1056/065/html/07.jpg.html
 
tu204
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:46 pm

aw70 wrote:
Something I've always wondered about the Tu-114... as impressive as its performance (and safety record, for that matter) were, at least for the age it operated in - but that bird was also ridiculously impractical due to the huge distance the fuselage was from the ground.

Now the Soviets had to put a new fuselage on the Tu-95 anyway, in order to make an airliner out of it. Why didn't they alter the configuration to a shoulder wing in the process, to make the resulting airframe more practical? They needed a new fuselage anyway, so why not go for a configuration that actually made sense?


I'm guessing prop-ground clearance.
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tu204
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:50 pm

Tabito wrote:
tu204 wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
wow 10 FA to 105 passengers


I'd love to see that the interior configuration at 105 seats!


Seat Map
https://travel.watch.impress.co.jp/img/trw/docs/1056/065/html/07.jpg.html


Hey thanks!

I think even 3-3 in Y would be amazingly roomy by today's standards. The fuselage is much wider than the typical 3-3 aircraft we are used to these days.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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ACCS300
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:25 pm

Kilopond wrote:
Here is a video clip from the Dutch newsreel (via Wikipedia with English subtitles):

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... _52883.ogv


Incredible footage thanks!! I'm fascinated by the additional small staircase required to board passengers, also the door looked quite tiny, similar to the Comet, whereby passengers had to 'duck-down' to enter the cabin.

Cabin looked comfortable too, I'm guess the rear was the quietest section, hence locating the first-class cabin in back.
 
aw70
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:30 pm

tu204 wrote:
aw70 wrote:
Something I've always wondered about the Tu-114... as impressive as its performance (and safety record, for that matter) were, at least for the age it operated in - but that bird was also ridiculously impractical due to the huge distance the fuselage was from the ground.

Now the Soviets had to put a new fuselage on the Tu-95 anyway, in order to make an airliner out of it. Why didn't they alter the configuration to a shoulder wing in the process, to make the resulting airframe more practical? They needed a new fuselage anyway, so why not go for a configuration that actually made sense?


I'm guessing prop-ground clearance.


Yeah, sure, that is exactly the point. Putting the wing in a shoulder config would have allowed them to keep the same huge propellers, while putting the fuselage considerably closer to the ground. It would certainly not have looked as elegant as the real Tu-114 in the air, more like a giant Dash-7: but at least you could have gotten in and out of the thing without special high-rise steps.
 
CRJ900
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:46 pm

Wow, what an aircraft. They don't make 'em like this any more.
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centrair
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:29 pm

So KLM did this to cut time on flying and not have to go via Anchorage. JAL did it for relations.

Amazing what happens when you search random things.

Now onto that TU-114 configuration... the first class is in the back air middle?
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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Polot
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:40 pm

centrair wrote:

Now onto that TU-114 configuration... the first class is in the back air middle?

Pretty common in the prop days. The front was louder and had more vibrations due to the propeller.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:47 pm

Had similar discussion last summer with more details. JAL also utilized IL-62 (photo included in thread)

SU / KL IL-62
viewtopic.php?t=1428893

=
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Dominion301
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:14 pm

Kilopond wrote:
Here is a video clip from the Dutch newsreel (via Wikipedia with English subtitles):

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... _52883.ogv


Thank you so much for sharing this video. Fascinating and the extra stairs above the airstairs, yikes!
 
tu204
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:27 pm

Tabito wrote:
Interesting photos from japanese sites.
https://jp.sputniknews.com/opinion/201704243566254/


According to the advertisement here in 1967 one way fares were:
J - 787.50 Roubles / 875.00 Dollars
Y - 484.80 Roubles / 538.60 Dollars.

Is it just me, or those pretty damn high? Any comparisons with other fares back in the day?

Also what I don't get is how they sold the suites (sleeping berths). Did they sell them simply as J class?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Rossiya747
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:29 pm

Silverstreak wrote:
I believe the TU-114 was one of the most beautiful airliners ever built. I have only seen one and it was on display at the entrance to Domodedovo Airport in Moscow. Sadly, shortly after, it went to the crusher. What a waste of this important aircraft in history.


There is one in Monino, which I visited back in August.
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mxaxai
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
Wasn't the 114 basically the only aircraft able to do this flight non stop at the time ?

By 1967, there were several long-haul jets to choose from that could comfortably fly Tokyo - Moscow. The distance of ~4000 nm is comparable to Europe-ANC, which was a fairly common route back then. JAL had the DC-8 in their fleet.
 
georgiabill
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:20 pm

what was the flight time on the TY-114 from SVO to NRT?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:36 pm

georgiabill wrote:
what was the flight time on the TY-114 from SVO to NRT?

Tu-114, you wrote in latin alphabet.

Only 10 hours 35 minutes. Says so here
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:39 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
One of the reasons why the Tu-114 was quickly forgotten about once the IL-62 entered international long-haul service, was the appalling cabin noise level that made normal conversation almost impossible for something like half of the fuselage length. That was the price to pay for those massively powerful contra-rotating propellers apparently. The shock waves created huge sound reverberations that shattered the entire airframe.


NK-12 engines, in Tu-114 operation, had propeller tips running at supersonic speeds. Good for speed, bad for noise and vibrations.
Some crews were losing hearing, and there was a bit of a drama:
1) some cockpit crews were declared medically deaf, grounded and kicked out. Massive personal tragedies for many.
2) later, some crews got waivers, and continued flying, despite partial loss of hearing. Crews were large, a dedicated radio operator was on hand for ground communication, so safety apparently wasn't compromised
3) yet later, this loss of hearing was rated as disability -- it entitled crews to pensions/compensations, while waivers still allowed them to fly
4) some folks began abusing the system, getting disability payments, without true loss of hearing
5) USSR imploded, united Aeroflot disintegrated, two-person cockpits arrived, together with Western plane types. Deaf pilots suddenly became unwelcome.
6) many formerly "disabled" pilots turned out to be not as disabled as it seemed. They scrambled to get their "hearing loss" records re-examined. Also, some pilots, who experienced genuine hearing issues, managed to recover, both with medical intervention, and/or by simply through flying quieter types (i.e. they had hearing loss, but not a permanent one). Crew rooms rumor mill buzzed, fingers were pointed at "cheats", "cheats" were (rightly or wrongly) claiming innocence, and said that "we had it bad before, now we recovered, and now you are accusing us, instead of supporting us". That sort of thing, apparently.

Some of these stories are still being actually debated online, though I would have thought all involved should have been retired since a long time -- Tu-114 was withdrawn from front-line service 40 years ago...
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workhorse
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Re: JAL TU114 in 1967

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:39 pm

My father has flown it extensively between Moscow and Khabarovsk in the beginning of the 70's. He keeps very fond memories of it.

He says, yes, it was loud, but you quickly got used to it. And the small compartments with two couches facing each other with a table between the two were great, he says. They had these nice art deco lamps on them and plush curtains. Sometimes flights were going out less than half full, so if you were lucky, you could get a whole couch for yourself - for the price of a regular Soviet Y ticket!

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