Nicknuzzii
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EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:14 am

My intention of making this thread is to understand why there are a limited number of international carriers at EWR, not to create a JFK vs. EWR debate. But why do carriers such as ANA, KLM, Air France, Qatar, Copa, Avianca, Asiana, etc. chose to serve JFK vs EWR? The demand is there from EWR along with it being significantly closer to key parts of Manhattan. Have airlines been too conservative when choosing which route to fly?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:21 am

JFK is the premier international gateway of the United States.

Like Heathrow or Charles de Gualle

If airlines are going to serve one airport in NY, unless they have a pull to EWR (aka UA) they likely choose JFK

You see how much UA regrets leaving JFK for their premium transcons...and they have the biggest reason to be at EWR

Furthermore, There are several Star carriers that serve only JFK.

Mostly prestige. Some history. Sometimes just closer to immigrant communities in Queens
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:29 am

jfklganyc wrote:
JFK is the premier international gateway of the United States.

Like Heathrow or Charles de Gualle

If airlines are going to serve one airport in NY, unless they have a pull to EWR (aka UA) they likely choose JFK

You see how much UA regrets leaving JFK for their premium transcons...and they have the biggest reason to be at EWR

Furthermore, There are several Star carriers that serve only JFK.

Mostly prestige. Some history. Sometimes just closer to immigrant communities in Queens


I’m not going to lie that all your answers were completely valid and make sense, but I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many imports parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if your traveling to NYC for almost any reason, your heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?
 
dmstorm22
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:34 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
JFK is the premier international gateway of the United States.

Like Heathrow or Charles de Gualle

If airlines are going to serve one airport in NY, unless they have a pull to EWR (aka UA) they likely choose JFK

You see how much UA regrets leaving JFK for their premium transcons...and they have the biggest reason to be at EWR

Furthermore, There are several Star carriers that serve only JFK.

Mostly prestige. Some history. Sometimes just closer to immigrant communities in Queens


I’m not going to lie that all your answers were completely valid and make sense, but I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many imports parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if your traveling to NYC for almost any reason, your heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?


It's not airlines not catching up, it is reflecting their passengers to some degree.

I live in NJ. I am a UA 1K. I still very much realize Newark is 'New Jersey' and JFK is 'New York'.

There's also I'm sure some operational advantages with JFK having more runways, more capacity (that said, from what I gather it is operating pretty close to the max).

But at the end of the day, when passengers think of New York, they think of JFK.
 
BuildingMyBento
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:46 am

Which excuse are you looking for?

There's the until recently EWR was slot-controlled one. The JFK is more prestigious one. The UA does just fine one.

Indeed, it makes a bit more sense for Star Alliance carriers to serve EWR, and I'm shocked (but not disappointed) that ICN isn't served from there.
Also, I believe QR's first NYC-area airport was EWR, and their return seems possible.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:00 am

I think a lot of pax that originate abroad view JFK as the main airport (right or wrong). So this makes JFK flights more desirable to non Star airlines. Even Star airlines serve JFK in a big way. So I infer O&D to JFK is pretty strong. That said, I was really surprised that AF and KL killed their EWR flights to their mega hubs CDG, AMS. Clearly pax that live in NJ will much prefer EWR. The only thing I could infer was again that foreign origin O&D wanted JFK and NJ residents that are higher value want OW. So better to move the flights to JFK (I believe I am correct that DL/AF/KL just moved the ewr flights to JFK instead of cancelling them - so they clearly felt they weren’t serving a meaningful EWR/NJ captive audience).
 
airhansa
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:39 am

JFK is a hub for JetBlue, Delta and American Airlines. It has a wider range of domestic destinations than EWR. It also benefits from better public transportation than JFK (at least in terms of what it has, not necessarily the travel time).

Also note that the terminals at JFK are directly run by airlines (including foreign carriers), whereas the terminals at EWR are run by the Port Authority, United Airlines and a private management company. Airline companies may prefer to fly into airports where they have substantial control (and also they can make extra money).
 
Nick614
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 am

wrong forum
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many important parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if you're traveling to NYC for almost any reason, you're heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?


That's quite a drastic oversimplification of the NYC market... New York's most populous borough is Brooklyn, followed by Queens. Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in the City, is largely closer to JFK than to EWR, although fairly equidistant. The Bronx is closer to JFK than to EWR. Anything on Long Island is closer to JFK than EWR. So if you look at NYC originating traffic, JFK is more convenient for a huge amount of it. Not to mention that many of the largest foreign born populations are in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx.

For those originating outside the City, I'd bet a lot of people assume JFK is closer to where they are going than EWR is, regardless of whether that's the case. Locals may understand the nuances of when it's quicker to get to EWR vs JFK from Manhattan, but visitors might be seeing "New York" versus "Newark" and assuming that JFK is closer.

New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).
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caliboy93
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:32 am

Also, Newark and New York sound the same, so maybe it won't make a difference which airport the airline serves?
 
dmstorm22
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:54 am

FSDan wrote:
New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).


This is a good point. The immigrant communities with a heavy presence in NJ have international flight options - namely the Indian subcontinent population that has two non-stops with UA and an AI flight to BOM.

That is why it is bit surprising how slow the ME3 has been to come to EWR. There's 2x DXB now (one is a 1-stop), but QR still hasn't returned. Very surprising IMO.

The only one that is a bit surprising is Alitalia leaving around the time of the CO/UA merger (thus losing CO as a partner) and nor returning despite the heavy Italian population in NJ. Of course, the Italian market is notoriously tough, and UA has expanded there as well.
 
skipness1E
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:30 am

And unless you’re United, the terminal facilities for international carriers at EWR are not up to scratch, it’s pretty basic.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:44 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
This is a good point. The immigrant communities with a heavy presence in NJ have international flight options - namely the Indian subcontinent population that has two non-stops with UA and an AI flight to BOM.

Three.

EWR-DEL nonstop (UA082) has existed longer than either of the above.
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strfyr51
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:55 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
My intention of making this thread is to understand why there are a limited number of international carriers at EWR, not to create a JFK vs. EWR debate. But why do carriers such as ANA, KLM, Air France, Qatar, Copa, Avianca, Asiana, etc. chose to serve JFK vs EWR? The demand is there from EWR along with it being significantly closer to key parts of Manhattan. Have airlines been too conservative when choosing which route to fly?

It could be their alliance partners also fly into JFK rather than EWR? Asiana is a Star Alliance partner and United does have a Ground crew at JFK to take care of them
BUT? With JFK being a preferred airport? Were they to pull out of JFK in favor of EWR? Would they EVER regain space AT JFK were United to ever move Back into JFK? At the moment? I don't even think there's room for United to even get back into JFK. and if there were? with How many connecting flights and from Where?. Staying in JFK might well be tactical. It made sense to the former CO management that we move to EWR and stop JFK flying. But NOW? We may have erred in leaving JFK.
Though time will tell the whole Story. There is a management group that believes we may have "Screwed the Pooch" in leaving JFK. But? they weren't even AT United when the Decision was made and the guys who made it? Aren't even at United. So at this point? It's Academic....
 
MaRoFu
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:05 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).


This is a good point. The immigrant communities with a heavy presence in NJ have international flight options


Not the Korean community though. The only major flight that EWR really needs is a nonstop to ICN.
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jfklganyc
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:11 pm

The hub of the Korean community in the area is NE Queens and spreading along the north shore of the LI

JFK is the better choice

UA, with a hub, is the best choice to start ICN
 
MIflyer12
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:45 pm

OP could ask why SFO and not OAK, or why MIA and not FLL...

One breaks out and gets the reputation and momentum, and then it becomes self-reinforcing. Many people (and search engines) search JFK as origin/destination and not EWR.

Efforts to force traffic to alternate airports often end unhappily. Montreal Dorval/Trudeau vs. Mirabel. Haneda vs. Narita. Dulles vs. DCA. LaGuardia's perimeter restrictions forcing traffic to JFK/EWR. The multi-decade mess than were the Dallas Love restrictions (and still prohibit international traffic at DAL). Political choices get in the way of economically rational choices.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
This is a good point. The immigrant communities with a heavy presence in NJ have international flight options - namely the Indian subcontinent population that has two non-stops with UA and an AI flight to BOM.

Three.

EWR-DEL nonstop (UA082) has existed longer than either of the above.


Yeah, worded it a bit off. Meant two non-stop with UA + the one non-stop with AI.
 
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:00 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The hub of the Korean community in the area is NE Queens and spreading along the north shore of the LI

JFK is the better choice

UA, with a hub, is the best choice to start ICN


Samsung and LG also have major regional headquarters in NJ, so there is a clear business incentive for UA or OZ starting ICN from EWR in addition to NJ’s large Korean diaspora.
Airports I have been to:
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x1234
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:03 pm

I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I know they code-share on JFK-ICN on OZ (Asiana). Yes there is capacity dumping with the 2x daily KE A380 and 1x daily OZ A350. Maybe that's the reason (KE/DL too powerful)...
 
EMB170
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:29 pm

Personally, as a SkyTeam loyalist, I'd love to see AF/KL/AZ return to EWR. For a time after they left, DL served CDG and AMS on their behalf, which was a good thing. Personally, I'd assume that NYC was big enough for the market to support both EWR and JFK, but apparently AF and KL think differently.

I'm hopeful that over the next few years, as the EWR terminals are redone, that AF/KL will indeed reconsider and return to EWR, or that DL will resume the services on their behalf. ICN on KE with a 789 would be a nice add, as well.

On a related note, I'm surprised that neither JL nor NH offers Tokyo service. Again, ripe for JL on a 789. Yes, you can argue that UA serves Tokyo on behalf of NH, but I'd think that if CX can make EWR work, JL ought to be able to do the same...

I'm looking forward to taking SQ's 359 from EWR in March, and (I hope) NZ's 789 from EWR in 2021, though! So, things are looking up.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:58 pm

x1234 wrote:
I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I know they code-share on JFK-ICN on OZ (Asiana). Yes there is capacity dumping with the 2x daily KE A380 and 1x daily OZ A350. Maybe that's the reason (KE/DL too powerful)...


Well, with a bunch of new 789s arriving over the next few years, hopefully UA will give EWR-ICN a shot. If they make EWR-CPT year round and daily at some point, that would rotate well with a theoretical EWR-ICN 789 route.
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dmstorm22
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 pm

FSDan wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I know they code-share on JFK-ICN on OZ (Asiana). Yes there is capacity dumping with the 2x daily KE A380 and 1x daily OZ A350. Maybe that's the reason (KE/DL too powerful)...


Well, with a bunch of new 789s arriving over the next few years, hopefully UA will give EWR-ICN a shot. If they make EWR-CPT year round and daily at some point, that would rotate well with a theoretical EWR-ICN 789 route.


I'll be surprised if EWR-CPT becomes year-round. I've heard anecdotally it is doing well, but as a leisure/tourism destination the demand will be low in their winter. Unless they are getting connections through CPT to JoBurg or other regional business centers (Windhoek?).
 
FSDan
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:35 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I know they code-share on JFK-ICN on OZ (Asiana). Yes there is capacity dumping with the 2x daily KE A380 and 1x daily OZ A350. Maybe that's the reason (KE/DL too powerful)...


Well, with a bunch of new 789s arriving over the next few years, hopefully UA will give EWR-ICN a shot. If they make EWR-CPT year round and daily at some point, that would rotate well with a theoretical EWR-ICN 789 route.


I'll be surprised if EWR-CPT becomes year-round. I've heard anecdotally it is doing well, but as a leisure/tourism destination the demand will be low in their winter.


A lot more U.S. visitors would likely be more available in Northern Summer due to school schedules, etc., and Cape Town's climate appears fairly palatable in winter. But you're right that it would be at least a little bit surprising to see this route go daily all year.
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proudavgeek
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:41 pm

Also dont forget that JFK is a 380 friendly airport while EWR is not. While that may not be as big of a deal as it could have been, it does add to the bragging rights JFK can use to lure in new airlines....
 
Oykie
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:46 pm

As most of you probably know. SAS used JFK until the tie up with Star alliance and Continental.Then SAS moved traffic to EWR. SAS operates from Terminal B at EWR and I’m not sure it’s an upgrade compared to terminal 1 at JFK. What I would like to know if how they compare? At terminal B there are hardly any stores, or restaurants and you connect by bus when transferring between domestic and international. The Airtrain is outside of security. Not sure if JFK is any better in terms of facilities?
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acavpics
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:55 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
JFK is the premier international gateway of the United States.

Like Heathrow or Charles de Gualle

If airlines are going to serve one airport in NY, unless they have a pull to EWR (aka UA) they likely choose JFK

You see how much UA regrets leaving JFK for their premium transcons...and they have the biggest reason to be at EWR

Furthermore, There are several Star carriers that serve only JFK.

Mostly prestige. Some history. Sometimes just closer to immigrant communities in Queens


I’m not going to lie that all your answers were completely valid and make sense, but I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many imports parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if your traveling to NYC for almost any reason, your heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?


It's not airlines not catching up, it is reflecting their passengers to some degree.

I live in NJ. I am a UA 1K. I still very much realize Newark is 'New Jersey' and JFK is 'New York'.

There's also I'm sure some operational advantages with JFK having more runways, more capacity (that said, from what I gather it is operating pretty close to the max).

But at the end of the day, when passengers think of New York, they think of JFK.


Maybe more people outside the country would view EWR as a NYC airport if airport displays labelled the destination as "New York-Newark", just as they do with "New York - Laguardia" and "New York - JFK." When they just display "Newark", it makes EWR seem like an airport serving an entirely different city/metro.
 
ltbewr
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:02 pm

EWR wasn't much for TATL and other international services until about 1983-84 and only on a limited basis, expanding into the late 1980's and 1990's and as growth in demand for international air service for the NYC metro area.
Although EWR opened up for business in 1928, true long-haul international service wasn't much until LGA opened in the pre-WWII period (the Marine Ocean Terminal for Pan Am's flying boats). JFK (then Idlewild) opened in 1947 when long-haul international service really began and JFK was primarily created for that, for the gateway city to the USA's east coast. Some airlines choose JFK for historic reasons, lower fees vs. EWR, cheaper if consolidate service at either JFK or EWR, need for connecting service within the USA and so on.
 
Coexstud
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:02 pm

KE served EWR everyone is forgetting up till shortly after 911. if you ride the employee bus in EWr you could at one point still see where they had the MX and other areas marked as being KE with its repretive symbol.
 
zkncj
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:07 pm

EMB170 wrote:
I'm looking forward to taking SQ's 359 from EWR in March, and (I hope) NZ's 789 from EWR in 2021, though! So, things are looking up.


NZ starts EWR from October 2020 3x weekly (Mon,Thur,Sat). Likely it will increase to 5x-7x weekly in peak periods like IAH and ORD have done not long after starting in the last few years.
 
Rossiya747
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:28 pm

x1234 wrote:
I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I know they code-share on JFK-ICN on OZ (Asiana). Yes there is capacity dumping with the 2x daily KE A380 and 1x daily OZ A350. Maybe that's the reason (KE/DL too powerful)...



UA 79/78 used to go EWR-NRT with a 772 or 773 and then NRT-ICN with a 738 or a continuation of a 777
223 319 320 321 332 333 346 388 734 737 738 739 38M 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 77W 788 789 208 CRJ2 E145 E190 UA DL AA WN AC CM 4O AV 2K FI DY D8 SK LH EI FR U2 IB OS LX BA VS BT PS MS SA SW QR EY HY AI 9W TG SQ MH AK D7 QZ BR NH CA QF MI
 
spacecadet
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 pm

acavpics wrote:
Maybe more people outside the country would view EWR as a NYC airport if airport displays labelled the destination as "New York-Newark", just as they do with "New York - Laguardia" and "New York - JFK." When they just display "Newark", it makes EWR seem like an airport serving an entirely different city/metro.


LGA and JFK are both *in* New York; that's why they're referred to that way. Newark Airport is in a whole different state, much less city.

Discussions about these three airports always seem to gravitate towards people thinking Manhattan is the center of NYC and EWR being geographically as close to it as JFK. But that's not the case. Brooklyn and Queens are both much larger parts of NYC than Manhattan and EWR doesn't really serve them at all. EWR at best serves the very western edge of NYC; the center of NYC's population is much farther east.

And in terms of foreign carriers, just look up the foreign populations in NYC as a whole vs. those same populations in northern NJ or even Manhattan individually.
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MaRoFu
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm

Coexstud wrote:
if you ride the employee bus in EWr you could at one point still see where they had the MX and other areas marked as being KE with its repretive symbol.


Just curious, where specifically is this? Also did you mean to say the in-security shuttle bus?
Airports I have been to:
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Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:12 pm

FSDan wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many important parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if you're traveling to NYC for almost any reason, you're heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?


That's quite a drastic oversimplification of the NYC market... New York's most populous borough is Brooklyn, followed by Queens. Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in the City, is largely closer to JFK than to EWR, although fairly equidistant. The Bronx is closer to JFK than to EWR. Anything on Long Island is closer to JFK than EWR. So if you look at NYC originating traffic, JFK is more convenient for a huge amount of it. Not to mention that many of the largest foreign born populations are in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx.

For those originating outside the City, I'd bet a lot of people assume JFK is closer to where they are going than EWR is, regardless of whether that's the case. Locals may understand the nuances of when it's quicker to get to EWR vs JFK from Manhattan, but visitors might be seeing "New York" versus "Newark" and assuming that JFK is closer.

New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).


I elected to chose 5 points around Manhattan, ranging across the island and I’d like to share what I found,

EWR -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 48 mins
Times Square - 38 mins
WTC - 42 mins
Central Park - 38 mins
Midtown - 35 mins

JFK -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 62 mins
Times Square - 52 mins
WTC - 55 mins
Central Park - 46 mins
Midtown - 51 mins

Take what you want of it.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:27 pm

SAS consolidated at Newark Airport with Continental long long long before there was a Star Alliance, and way before Continental joined Star Alliance. SAS left JFK in the late 1980s or early 1990s. And they've been there every since and have not returned to JFK. Continental only joined Star Alliance in 2009 or 2010. SAS had been at Newark working closely with Continental for the better part of 30 years by that point.

Oykie wrote:
As most of you probably know. SAS used JFK until the tie up with Star alliance and Continental.Then SAS moved traffic to EWR. SAS operates from Terminal B at EWR and I’m not sure it’s an upgrade compared to terminal 1 at JFK. What I would like to know if how they compare? At terminal B there are hardly any stores, or restaurants and you connect by bus when transferring between domestic and international. The Airtrain is outside of security. Not sure if JFK is any better in terms of facilities?
 
Oykie
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:35 pm

You’re right. The tie up with Continental was not with Star Alliance, but did SAS at some point own parts of Continental? They bought Jet Capital Corporation from Frank Lorenzo on the condition that he left the company in 1990.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
blockski
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:41 pm

spacecadet wrote:
acavpics wrote:
Maybe more people outside the country would view EWR as a NYC airport if airport displays labelled the destination as "New York-Newark", just as they do with "New York - Laguardia" and "New York - JFK." When they just display "Newark", it makes EWR seem like an airport serving an entirely different city/metro.


LGA and JFK are both *in* New York; that's why they're referred to that way. Newark Airport is in a whole different state, much less city.

Discussions about these three airports always seem to gravitate towards people thinking Manhattan is the center of NYC and EWR being geographically as close to it as JFK. But that's not the case. Brooklyn and Queens are both much larger parts of NYC than Manhattan and EWR doesn't really serve them at all. EWR at best serves the very western edge of NYC; the center of NYC's population is much farther east.

And in terms of foreign carriers, just look up the foreign populations in NYC as a whole vs. those same populations in northern NJ or even Manhattan individually.


The differences in administrative jurisdiction have little to do with the differences in traffic between the airports.

Like, if NY State and City somehow annexed northern NJ and Newark was now the 6th Borough - it wouldn't change anything.
 
Northpole
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:54 pm

Oykie wrote:
As most of you probably know. SAS used JFK until the tie up with Star alliance and Continental.Then SAS moved traffic to EWR. SAS operates from Terminal B at EWR and I’m not sure it’s an upgrade compared to terminal 1 at JFK. What I would like to know if how they compare? At terminal B there are hardly any stores, or restaurants and you connect by bus when transferring between domestic and international. The Airtrain is outside of security. Not sure if JFK is any better in terms of facilities?


To me as a Swede living in south Sweden with some 20-25 minutes by car or train to CPH I prefer traveling CPH > " New York" direct - not a transfer in Amsterdam( KL) or Frankfurt (LH) or Paris(AF) for that matter. I prefer a direct flight.
So I will end up with SK at EWR ( CPH-EWR or ARN-CPH )
To me , EWR is however " Jersey " and not New York- since my final destination in New York, as the majority of the other Scandinavian pax is Manhattan > B U T : At EWR I do not have to wait several hours at immigrations and customs after 2-3 Jumbos arrived from Dehli or whatever with thousands of passengers bringing loads of baggage to be inspected and travelers to be interviewed about their purpose of the visit.
I arrived at JFK with Icelandair last year ( yes I choose them as a " test " and because of the ticket price and also because it was a 757 which I wanted to try...same story I spent hours at immigrations and customs together with the others on my flite. However I haven't figured out how to get a smooth transfer from EWR in to Manhattan... in that aspect I would say JFK is the better option ( once through immigrations and customs)
 
Northpole
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:00 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
I come to question why the prestige still exists. As I said before EWR is closer to many important parts of Manhattan and let’s face it if you're traveling to NYC for almost any reason, you're heading to Manhattan. Furthermore, in a tech driven world where the majority of people pick their own travel and will see the travel times to and from the city, they will see EWR is closer. This should make EWR the front runner between the two. Have airlines just not caught up? Do they not feel the risk is worth the reward?


That's quite a drastic oversimplification of the NYC market... New York's most populous borough is Brooklyn, followed by Queens. Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in the City, is largely closer to JFK than to EWR, although fairly equidistant. The Bronx is closer to JFK than to EWR. Anything on Long Island is closer to JFK than EWR. So if you look at NYC originating traffic, JFK is more convenient for a huge amount of it. Not to mention that many of the largest foreign born populations are in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx.

For those originating outside the City, I'd bet a lot of people assume JFK is closer to where they are going than EWR is, regardless of whether that's the case. Locals may understand the nuances of when it's quicker to get to EWR vs JFK from Manhattan, but visitors might be seeing "New York" versus "Newark" and assuming that JFK is closer.

New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).


I elected to chose 5 points around Manhattan, ranging across the island and I’d like to share what I found,

EWR -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 48 mins
Times Square - 38 mins
WTC - 42 mins
Central Park - 38 mins
Midtown - 35 mins

JFK -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 62 mins
Times Square - 52 mins
WTC - 55 mins
Central Park - 46 mins
Midtown - 51 mins

Take what you want of it.


My experience :
JFK > Time spent at Customs and Immigrations 2-4 hours - u never know
EWR > Timme spent at Customs and Immigrations : 30 minutes- 1 hour.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3702
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Northpole wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
FSDan wrote:

That's quite a drastic oversimplification of the NYC market... New York's most populous borough is Brooklyn, followed by Queens. Midtown Manhattan, which is the largest business district in the City, is largely closer to JFK than to EWR, although fairly equidistant. The Bronx is closer to JFK than to EWR. Anything on Long Island is closer to JFK than EWR. So if you look at NYC originating traffic, JFK is more convenient for a huge amount of it. Not to mention that many of the largest foreign born populations are in Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx.

For those originating outside the City, I'd bet a lot of people assume JFK is closer to where they are going than EWR is, regardless of whether that's the case. Locals may understand the nuances of when it's quicker to get to EWR vs JFK from Manhattan, but visitors might be seeing "New York" versus "Newark" and assuming that JFK is closer.

New Jersey obviously has its own immigrant communities, large corporations, wealthy enclaves, etc. which would almost entirely go to EWR, along with more of the Downtown Manhattan traffic and Staten Island residents. That's why EWR has a very healthy dose of international carriers serving it (lets not kid ourselves, EWR's among the top airports in the country in that metric - hardly underserved).


I elected to chose 5 points around Manhattan, ranging across the island and I’d like to share what I found,

EWR -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 48 mins
Times Square - 38 mins
WTC - 42 mins
Central Park - 38 mins
Midtown - 35 mins

JFK -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 62 mins
Times Square - 52 mins
WTC - 55 mins
Central Park - 46 mins
Midtown - 51 mins

Take what you want of it.


My experience :
JFK > Time spent at Customs and Immigrations 2-4 hours - u never know
EWR > Timme spent at Customs and Immigrations : 30 minutes- 1 hour.

Maybe you need to try a few more times. I have experienced some of the longest immigration line waits at ewr and some of the shortest lines at JFK terminal 7. Of course, terminal 4 is a different story.
 
Northpole
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:13 pm

tphuang wrote:
Northpole wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

I elected to chose 5 points around Manhattan, ranging across the island and I’d like to share what I found,

EWR -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 48 mins
Times Square - 38 mins
WTC - 42 mins
Central Park - 38 mins
Midtown - 35 mins

JFK -
Destination Travel time
Wall St. - 62 mins
Times Square - 52 mins
WTC - 55 mins
Central Park - 46 mins
Midtown - 51 mins

Take what you want of it.


My experience :
JFK > Time spent at Customs and Immigrations 2-4 hours - u never know
EWR > Timme spent at Customs and Immigrations : 30 minutes- 1 hour.

Maybe you need to try a few more times. I have experienced some of the longest immigration line waits at ewr and some of the shortest lines at JFK terminal 7. Of course, terminal 4 is a different story.

I assume the difference between us is that You are an American citizen with a US Passport and I am from Sweden with a Swedish Passport ?
 
tphuang
Posts: 3702
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 pm

Northpole wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Northpole wrote:

My experience :
JFK > Time spent at Customs and Immigrations 2-4 hours - u never know
EWR > Timme spent at Customs and Immigrations : 30 minutes- 1 hour.

Maybe you need to try a few more times. I have experienced some of the longest immigration line waits at ewr and some of the shortest lines at JFK terminal 7. Of course, terminal 4 is a different story.

I assume the difference between us is that You are an American citizen with a US Passport and I am from Sweden with a Swedish Passport ?


No definitely not a us passport holder. Terminal 7 can be quite the breeze.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5558
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:47 pm

SAS left in the late 80s

Terminal B was an early 1990s build (the international addition)

Terminal 1 was a middle 1990s build

Terminal 1 is more striking with more stores and generally more modern

But Terminal 1 is also very very crowded and that overrides many of the good aspects

Terminal 1 will be demolished in short order while Terminal B will be around a bit longer


The train options from JFK are far superior in terms of time, frequency, cost and variety

The ride from JFK sucks. Traffic within the boros is just awful nowadays
 
Northpole
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
Northpole wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Maybe you need to try a few more times. I have experienced some of the longest immigration line waits at ewr and some of the shortest lines at JFK terminal 7. Of course, terminal 4 is a different story.

I assume the difference between us is that You are an American citizen with a US Passport and I am from Sweden with a Swedish Passport ?


No definitely not a us passport holder. Terminal 7 can be quite the breeze.


In order to make it clear : I am absolutely not arguing with you only sharing my own experiences.
Normally I travel from Sweden to the US and back some 6-8 times/year and have done so for many years and
I do not travel via the UK (British ) > Terminal 7
What is the purpose of some airlines using Shannon for " pre-clearance " from Europe into the USA ?
As You know waiting times are monitored by CBP > https://awt.cbp.gov
When they go down in late afternoon to 8 booths in Terminal 4 well ..... :(
 
SoEWR
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:39 am

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:30 pm

Northpole wrote:
Oykie wrote:
As most of you probably know. SAS used JFK until the tie up with Star alliance and Continental.Then SAS moved traffic to EWR. SAS operates from Terminal B at EWR and I’m not sure it’s an upgrade compared to terminal 1 at JFK. What I would like to know if how they compare? At terminal B there are hardly any stores, or restaurants and you connect by bus when transferring between domestic and international. The Airtrain is outside of security. Not sure if JFK is any better in terms of facilities?


To me as a Swede living in south Sweden with some 20-25 minutes by car or train to CPH I prefer traveling CPH > " New York" direct - not a transfer in Amsterdam( KL) or Frankfurt (LH) or Paris(AF) for that matter. I prefer a direct flight.
So I will end up with SK at EWR ( CPH-EWR or ARN-CPH )
To me , EWR is however " Jersey " and not New York- since my final destination in New York, as the majority of the other Scandinavian pax is Manhattan > B U T : At EWR I do not have to wait several hours at immigrations and customs after 2-3 Jumbos arrived from Dehli or whatever with thousands of passengers bringing loads of baggage to be inspected and travelers to be interviewed about their purpose of the visit.
I arrived at JFK with Icelandair last year ( yes I choose them as a " test " and because of the ticket price and also because it was a 757 which I wanted to try...same story I spent hours at immigrations and customs together with the others on my flite. However I haven't figured out how to get a smooth transfer from EWR in to Manhattan... in that aspect I would say JFK is the better option ( once through immigrations and customs)


NJ Transit runs directly from EWR to Penn Station in Midtown Manhattan.
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4429
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:40 pm

There's also just the two, usually traffic choked tunnels out of Manhattan to NJ. Not at all something I want to contemplate if I have a flight going out from EWR. There's just so many more routes to JFK from Manhattan.
 
MaRoFu
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:14 am

The train options out of EWR are a bit lackluster at the moment but once the PATH extension opens it will provide a cheap, fast, and direct route straight to the World Trade Center. Honestly I think they also should build the cancelled Newark Light Rail extension that would’ve connected EWR with not just Newark Penn, but also Jersey Gardens and Elizabeth.
Airports I have been to:
DFW, EWR, IAH, JFK, LAS, LGA, MCO, MIA, NRT, ORD, PHL, PHX, SEA, SLC, YTZ, YYZ
 
Drucocu
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:17 am

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:50 am

Just for me as a low budget tourist with (recently found and moved) family and friends in Brooklyn and Queens, EWR just seems like a pain in the behind. I'd rather fly into SWF and take a bus to Manhattan and make my way from there than have to deal with the clusterfuck of combined road/rail/whatever the hell is most convenient from EWR. But I don't care about speed to Wall Street because I'm on a holiday.
JFK I only have experience with T1 and that was one hell of a dump. Holy Moses that CBP took 3 bloody hours, arriving just after a KE A380. I'd rather die than stand in that line again.
LGA is my preferred point of entry nowadays, especially with cheap AC fares to be found throughout the year and thus dealing with a way easier and friendlier preclearance in YYZ compared to the clusterfuck that is US border control in the actual country.
Haven't seen LGA yet after the ongoing renewals but last time the pier I had to be felt like a small, well organized airport in my home country. Hope things get a bit more centralised and there's more of a full airport feeling, without too much of a sacrifice in wait times for security etc.
All in all, my experience with US airports is that it's just a hodgepodge of el cheapo extensions built all around and all over each other without much concern for passengers. Kinda like CDG but less well maintained. Kinda like the whole country of India but at least they maintain their international gateways. Still not as bad as the UK though :banghead:

And yes, I will propagate my point of view as a (in the eyes of my friends) experienced traveller. And yes, my first time into NYC was into JFK obviously. But in my (Eurocentric, used to public transport, not wasting money on taxis) circle I only find similar views, which might also relate to airlines preferring JFK over EWR. From historical reasons at first but nowadays just the experience passengers want. Which is a simple air train + subway/train ride instead of whatever the deal is at EWR depending on whatever the gods decide is right for that particular time and day.
 
paperwastage
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 11:45 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:43 am

MaRoFu wrote:

Not the Korean community though. The only major flight that EWR really needs is a nonstop to ICN.

x1234 wrote:
I never understood why UA won't start EWR-ICN. I

There's a sizable Korean population near fort Lee. I imagine if OZ ever pulls out of JFK(new owner?) UA will add EWR-ICN
EMB170 wrote:

On a related note, I'm surprised that neither JL nor NH offers Tokyo service. Again, ripe for JL on a 789. Yes, you can argue that UA serves Tokyo on behalf of NH, but I'd think that if CX can make EWR work, JL ought to be able to do the same...
.

Even with the new HND slots, it was UA adding EWR-HND (772) starting March 2020 along with existing EWR-NRT (777-300)

NH and ANA both operate double daily out of JFK (one to NRF, one to HND), so a total of 6 after UA's addition, all 777s

I don't think there's enough traffic to add a 7th, even if NH+JL operate the ultra premium heavy configs (212seats on NH and 244 on JL, 350+276 on UA 77W+772)

There's only 5 serving HKG (UA & CX from ewr, and 3 CX from JFK, with UA doing 2-3x weekly instead of daily for now
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1785
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: EWR and Foreign Carriers

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:52 am

spacecadet wrote:
acavpics wrote:
Maybe more people outside the country would view EWR as a NYC airport if airport displays labelled the destination as "New York-Newark", just as they do with "New York - Laguardia" and "New York - JFK." When they just display "Newark", it makes EWR seem like an airport serving an entirely different city/metro.


LGA and JFK are both *in* New York; that's why they're referred to that way. Newark Airport is in a whole different state, much less city.

Discussions about these three airports always seem to gravitate towards people thinking Manhattan is the center of NYC and EWR being geographically as close to it as JFK. But that's not the case. Brooklyn and Queens are both much larger parts of NYC than Manhattan and EWR doesn't really serve them at all. EWR at best serves the very western edge of NYC; the center of NYC's population is much farther east.

And in terms of foreign carriers, just look up the foreign populations in NYC as a whole vs. those same populations in northern NJ or even Manhattan individually.

Doesn’t stop Jets and Giants from calling themselves New York when they play in New Jersey.

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