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Chrisba320
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:05 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:42 pm

seat64k wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
My guess at this stage is that they will kill off their domestic operations


Why do you think that? I would think that without their domestic ops, they're dead in the water.


All their domestic routes are loss making. Supply outstrips demand and our domestic flights are short, no need for a full service airline. Those aircraft can be better used on regional flights where the yields are high and there is little or no competition. I can see SAA having a place in the sun if they have a strong regional network with a handful of profitable international flights.
 
aerohottie
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:52 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:52 pm

Chrisba320 wrote:
seat64k wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
My guess at this stage is that they will kill off their domestic operations


Why do you think that? I would think that without their domestic ops, they're dead in the water.


All their domestic routes are loss making. Supply outstrips demand and our domestic flights are short, no need for a full service airline. Those aircraft can be better used on regional flights where the yields are high and there is little or no competition. I can see SAA having a place in the sun if they have a strong regional network with a handful of profitable international flights.

No need to shut down domestic to achieve that. Airlines like Air NZ operate domestic services as an express model, and successfully complete with low cost carriers. Reserve the full service for medium and long haul, but keep the domestic express as feed
What?
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:15 am

Just a preference but I think the A340 200/300 series is a prettier looking wide-body aircraft, than anything but an L1011 Tristar or an IL-86.

747 and 767 are still the best widebody passenger aircraft though.

I hope SAA’s a 340s find a great home.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
NYKiwi
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:44 am

Being a Kiwi I agree on the express model, cuppa tea and biscuit is all you need on the domestics.

Was in Cape Town last year flying back to JFK through JNB.....the dinner meal on the CPT to JNB was better than JNB to JFK......wasted money
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:22 am

DCA350 wrote:
Wow I would have thought DC was profitable for them especially with the Accra stop.. Star Hub plus there's a large Ghanaian DC population that loved the direct flight.


And it certainly still is. They're cutting 2 flights during the whole month to manage capacity. Doesn't mean it isn't making money. It's probably one of the few routes that do.
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:24 am

WorldFlier wrote:
I want to have sympathy, but how can Ethiopia who in the same 41 years as your wife managed to run their airline through revolutions and famine?


Comparing Ethiopia to South Africa is a distraction. Ethiopia is an authoritarian state which enable massive implicit subsidies to the airline with staggeringly low labour costs.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:23 pm

evanb wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
I want to have sympathy, but how can Ethiopia who in the same 41 years as your wife managed to run their airline through revolutions and famine?


Comparing Ethiopia to South Africa is a distraction. Ethiopia is an authoritarian state which enable massive implicit subsidies to the airline with staggeringly low labour costs.


A staggeringly poor country that manages to run an airline through at least 3 different governments (Emperor, Derg, "Democracy") that provides funds *TO* the government instead of being explicitly subsidized or raided for funds, depending on the people in charge. And that didn't raiding/subsidizing change in South Africa between two governments, Apartheid 41 years ago to today.

SAA should be allowed to fail and maybe Ethiopian can open a subsidiary company like they've successfully done across Africa...or maybe a free-market local solution can happen.
 
trees
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:03 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
evanb wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
I want to have sympathy, but how can Ethiopia who in the same 41 years as your wife managed to run their airline through revolutions and famine?


Comparing Ethiopia to South Africa is a distraction. Ethiopia is an authoritarian state which enable massive implicit subsidies to the airline with staggeringly low labour costs.


A staggeringly poor country that manages to run an airline through at least 3 different governments (Emperor, Derg, "Democracy") that provides funds *TO* the government instead of being explicitly subsidized or raided for funds, depending on the people in charge. And that didn't raiding/subsidizing change in South Africa between two governments, Apartheid 41 years ago to today.


Ethiopian aren’t paying anything back. They owe zero dividends back to government. That’s their subsidy. And don’t forget the state policies which help keep labour costs extremely low.

SAA will not fail. But extreme changes are in the horizon and it is a very uncomfortable time for all involved.
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:49 am

trees wrote:
Ethiopian aren’t paying anything back. They owe zero dividends back to government. That’s their subsidy. And don’t forget the state policies which help keep labour costs extremely low.

SAA will not fail. But extreme changes are in the horizon and it is a very uncomfortable time for all involved.


I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7334
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:15 pm

evanb wrote:
trees wrote:
Ethiopian aren’t paying anything back. They owe zero dividends back to government. That’s their subsidy. And don’t forget the state policies which help keep labour costs extremely low.

SAA will not fail. But extreme changes are in the horizon and it is a very uncomfortable time for all involved.


I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.


Just because the "average" cost per employee by European, North American and Japanese standards is low that $13,000 could be a good job in Ethiopia. The true wage for non-pilots is probably $8,000 since pilots obviously get paid a lot more than other airline employees.
 
Williamsb747
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:31 pm

jfk777 wrote:
evanb wrote:
trees wrote:
Ethiopian aren’t paying anything back. They owe zero dividends back to government. That’s their subsidy. And don’t forget the state policies which help keep labour costs extremely low.

SAA will not fail. But extreme changes are in the horizon and it is a very uncomfortable time for all involved.


I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.


Just because the "average" cost per employee by European, North American and Japanese standards is low that $13,000 could be a good job in Ethiopia. The true wage for non-pilots is probably $8,000 since pilots obviously get paid a lot more than other airline employees.


It’s not about the standard in Ethiopia. It’s about the simple fact that they have MUCH lower labour costs when compared to any other airline. Thus leading to lower operating costs which could lead to either more competitive (lower) prices or having similar prices leading to a higher profit margin.

Williams-
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:25 pm

evanb wrote:
trees wrote:
Ethiopian aren’t paying anything back. They owe zero dividends back to government. That’s their subsidy. And don’t forget the state policies which help keep labour costs extremely low.

SAA will not fail. But extreme changes are in the horizon and it is a very uncomfortable time for all involved.


I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.


$13,000 per employee, compared to a GDP per capita of $767 DOLLARS.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3266
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:24 pm

evanb wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Wow I would have thought DC was profitable for them especially with the Accra stop.. Star Hub plus there's a large Ghanaian DC population that loved the direct flight.


And it certainly still is. They're cutting 2 flights during the whole month to manage capacity. Doesn't mean it isn't making money. It's probably one of the few routes that do.


What's the strategy behind cutting a money-making flight in the name of "managing capacity"? If capacity must be managed, wouldn't it be better to cut the lowest performing flights?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Williamsb747
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:59 pm

FSDan wrote:
evanb wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Wow I would have thought DC was profitable for them especially with the Accra stop.. Star Hub plus there's a large Ghanaian DC population that loved the direct flight.


And it certainly still is. They're cutting 2 flights during the whole month to manage capacity. Doesn't mean it isn't making money. It's probably one of the few routes that do.


What's the strategy behind cutting a money-making flight in the name of "managing capacity"? If capacity must be managed, wouldn't it be better to cut the lowest performing flights?


Let’s say if one or two of the rotations are half empty it’s a waste of fuel, money and employees to operate. It’s better to just consolidate the passengers onto one flight on a different day or take a partner airline’s flight. Many airlines do it, comair, mango and even once a QF flight I was supposed to be one (MEL-SYD) was changed to a slightly earlier flight for this exact reason.

Williams-
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
FSDan
Posts: 3266
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:51 pm

Williamsb747 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
evanb wrote:

And it certainly still is. They're cutting 2 flights during the whole month to manage capacity. Doesn't mean it isn't making money. It's probably one of the few routes that do.


What's the strategy behind cutting a money-making flight in the name of "managing capacity"? If capacity must be managed, wouldn't it be better to cut the lowest performing flights?


Let’s say if one or two of the rotations are half empty it’s a waste of fuel, money and employees to operate. It’s better to just consolidate the passengers onto one flight on a different day or take a partner airline’s flight. Many airlines do it, comair, mango and even once a QF flight I was supposed to be one (MEL-SYD) was changed to a slightly earlier flight for this exact reason.

Williams-


Sure, that makes sense to me. The part I didn't get was that IAD-ACC-JNB supposedly is "certainly still" profitable, in which case the scenario you described wouldn't seem to apply. Either the flight is actually not profitable, or else it seems like an odd strategy to cut it.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
trees
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:39 pm

FSDan wrote:
Williamsb747 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

What's the strategy behind cutting a money-making flight in the name of "managing capacity"? If capacity must be managed, wouldn't it be better to cut the lowest performing flights?


Let’s say if one or two of the rotations are half empty it’s a waste of fuel, money and employees to operate. It’s better to just consolidate the passengers onto one flight on a different day or take a partner airline’s flight. Many airlines do it, comair, mango and even once a QF flight I was supposed to be one (MEL-SYD) was changed to a slightly earlier flight for this exact reason.

Williams-


Sure, that makes sense to me. The part I didn't get was that IAD-ACC-JNB supposedly is "certainly still" profitable, in which case the scenario you described wouldn't seem to apply. Either the flight is actually not profitable, or else it seems like an odd strategy to cut it.


Just because some days are being consolidated. It doesn’t mean the route as a whole is performing poorly.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3266
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:04 pm

trees wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Williamsb747 wrote:

Let’s say if one or two of the rotations are half empty it’s a waste of fuel, money and employees to operate. It’s better to just consolidate the passengers onto one flight on a different day or take a partner airline’s flight. Many airlines do it, comair, mango and even once a QF flight I was supposed to be one (MEL-SYD) was changed to a slightly earlier flight for this exact reason.

Williams-


Sure, that makes sense to me. The part I didn't get was that IAD-ACC-JNB supposedly is "certainly still" profitable, in which case the scenario you described wouldn't seem to apply. Either the flight is actually not profitable, or else it seems like an odd strategy to cut it.


Just because some days are being consolidated. It doesn’t mean the route as a whole is performing poorly.


Ah, I had thought this was a complete cancellation (at least for a month or so). If it's just a frequency reduction, that makes more sense to me.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:33 pm

I don’t know if anyone mentioned this, but would Sands Corp take in another A340? They already have one, so fleet commonality I guess?
 
Williamsb747
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:44 am

MDGLongBeach wrote:
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this, but would Sands Corp take in another A340? They already have one, so fleet commonality I guess?


Actually maybe... Two A340s to replace those 40 year old B747sp. I wouldn’t want that to happen because that would mean those queens go straight to the scrap yard.
It’s possible for it to happen but I have my doubts.

Williams-
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:07 pm

Williamsb747 wrote:
Actually maybe... Two A340s to replace those 40 year old B747sp. I wouldn’t want that to happen because that would mean those queens go straight to the scrap yard.
It’s possible for it to happen but I have my doubts.


ACMI or private operators are likely going to look for frames with low hours and cycles. That is certainly not the case for SAA's A340s.

Edit: if they were really looking for more A340s there are plenty of low hour and cycles frames that have been waiting for new owners for a while and were not picked up. So no idea why they'd be interested now that SAA are selling.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24501
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:38 am

Likely due to lack of interest, the tender bid deadline has been extended by a month till 28 February. (was 30 January)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:17 am

The following airframe have been removed from services, and flown for storage/scrapping:
A340-642
MSN 410 ZS-SNA
MSN 417 ZS-SNB
MSN 531 ZS-SND
MSN 534 ZS-SNE
MSN 557 ZS-SNG
MSN 630 ZS-SNI

A340-313X
MSN 590 ZS-SXC
MSN 643 ZS-SXD
MSN 197 ZS-SXH

Sparsely used
A340-642
MSN 426 ZS-SNC
MSN 547 ZS-SNF

A340-313X
MSN 646 ZS-SXE
MSN 651 ZS-SXF
MSN 378 ZS-SXG
Source: FR24, Skyliner-aviation.de

For those who are interested to bid for the nine airframes, plus 15 engines and four APUs, here are the list:
A340-642
MSN 426 ZS-SNC
MSN 531 ZS-SND
MSN 547 ZS-SNF
MSN 557 ZS-SNG

A340-313X
MSN 643 ZS-SXD
MSN 646 ZS-SXE
MSN 651 ZS-SXF
MSN 378 ZS-SXG
MSN 197 ZS-SXH

You can find each airframe technical information here except ZS-SXH: https://www.flysaa.com/about-us/leading ... aa-tenders

ZS-SXH is out of cycle, destined for teardown.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:15 am

LAXintl wrote:
Likely due to lack of interest, the tender bid deadline has been extended by a month till 28 February. (was 30 January)


Not a lack of interest. Some respondents asked for additional time to inspect aircraft and records. Inspections took place on site last week.
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:12 pm

ZS-SXE (one of the 9 frames up for sale) flew between Waterkloof Air Force Base and JNB tonight at around 00:20.

Does anyone know why?
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:37 pm

Williamsb747 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
evanb wrote:

I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.


Just because the "average" cost per employee by European, North American and Japanese standards is low that $13,000 could be a good job in Ethiopia. The true wage for non-pilots is probably $8,000 since pilots obviously get paid a lot more than other airline employees.


It’s not about the standard in Ethiopia. It’s about the simple fact that they have MUCH lower labour costs when compared to any other airline. Thus leading to lower operating costs which could lead to either more competitive (lower) prices or having similar prices leading to a higher profit margin.

Williams-

Drastically lower labor costs haven't prevented Ryanair or easyjet from compeating with
Wizzair.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: SAA trying to sell 9 A340s

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:37 pm

Williamsb747 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
evanb wrote:

I think many people on here have no idea just how low ET's wages are. I have not checked recently, but about three years ago, their average annual cost to company per employee (not wages, but total cost) was $13,000 per year. That is astonishingly low, and not comparable to any other airline in any country.


Just because the "average" cost per employee by European, North American and Japanese standards is low that $13,000 could be a good job in Ethiopia. The true wage for non-pilots is probably $8,000 since pilots obviously get paid a lot more than other airline employees.


It’s not about the standard in Ethiopia. It’s about the simple fact that they have MUCH lower labour costs when compared to any other airline. Thus leading to lower operating costs which could lead to either more competitive (lower) prices or having similar prices leading to a higher profit margin.

Williams-

Drastically lower labor costs haven't prevented Ryanair or easyjet from compeating with
Wizzair.

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