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TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I still beleive BBD's share won't be sold at fire sale prices but somewhat closer to fair market value (whatever that means) due to the fact IQ can make a counter offer - if the price are ridiculous.

Would such a purchase be consistent with IQ's mandates?

Whatever BBD does would need to consider shareholder value.

It's not a given that Airbus can get the shares a fire sale price.

BBD will have a fiduciary responsibility to explore all offers, BBD has funded a lot of the ramp up since the deal closed, Airbus's participation and the deep order book mean the value of the enterprise is greater than $1.


While IQ's mandate is to do what is in Quebec's interest, I wouldn't put it past them to help bail out BBD by bidding up the shares being sold to Airbus. There's a certain coziness between the government and the elites in Quebec. Of which the Beaudoin family running BBD definitely dominates. The thing is any sale that values this program at $4 billion or less would be a fantastic deal for Airbus. Might push out their development timelines though if they spend more than a billion buying share.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:27 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
I agree with you that there are a zillion possible scenarios. And indeed BBD, IQ and Airbus must be assessing them.

TObound wrote:
While IQ's mandate is to do what is in Quebec's interest, I wouldn't put it past them to help bail out BBD by bidding up the shares being sold to Airbus. There's a certain coziness between the government and the elites in Quebec. Of which the Beaudoin family running BBD definitely dominates. The thing is any sale that values this program at $4 billion or less would be a fantastic deal for Airbus. Might push out their development timelines though if they spend more than a billion buying share.

I agree, so many fascinating angles to consider.

For instance, if Airbus can make $4B become available, does it make sense to spend it on buying out A220 versus spending it on building a super-FAL for A320 family using the A380 halls at TLS and/or financing a A322 stretch as a NMA entrant, and letting BBD's missteps play out a bit further?

How happy would the EU workers be to see a large chunk of company funds being used to help insure the future of YMX and/or MOB instead of TLS and/or XFW?

If Airbus drives too keen a bargain with BBD and QI, do they risk angering the local governments and citizens?
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
For instance, if Airbus can make $4B become available, does it make sense to spend it on buying out A220 versus spending it on building a super-FAL for A320 family using the A380 halls at TLS and/or financing a A322 stretch as a NMA entrant, and letting BBD's missteps play out a bit further?


Airbus might do both. Companies the size of Airbus have multiple investments running.

The A321 XLR line in TLS will become reality, and they will buy the remaining CSeries shares.
Good moaning!
 
leghorn
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:40 am

If Bombardier knew upon entering the deal with Airbus what they know now they might not have sold the Q400 line but then if they knew what they know now they'd never have started the CS100 development project.
They really bet the civil aviation house on the CS100/300.
It is easy to see how they pushed through with the CS100/300 based on pride rather than retrenching.
The benefit for society is that the most modern and economic narrowbody passenger plane now exists.
With some cost cutting and judicious product improvements they could have been selling the Q400 and even CRJ(no CS100 to compete with, no MRJ, failing e195-2) to a lesser extent for the best part of another decade...not sexy but low risk business.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:56 am

Perhaps They will give the legal status of the cooperation.

Airbus may want to isolate the C Series from the rest of the company.

It is reasonable to comp!early separate C Series operation from Airbus and to limit their liability to the amount they will put in the new entity.

C Series as it is today is a top much involvement in a risky endeavor.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:59 pm

leghorn wrote:
If Bombardier knew upon entering the deal with Airbus what they know now they might not have sold the Q400 line but then if they knew what they know now they'd never have started the CS100 development project.
They really bet the civil aviation house on the CS100/300.
It is easy to see how they pushed through with the CS100/300 based on pride rather than retrenching.
The benefit for society is that the most modern and economic narrowbody passenger plane now exists.
With some cost cutting and judicious product improvements they could have been selling the Q400 and even CRJ(no CS100 to compete with, no MRJ, failing e195-2) to a lesser extent for the best part of another decade...not sexy but low risk business.


It is interesting that there seems to be an element of pride involved in many aviation products. Fortunately, Bombardier sized this product correctly, unlike Airbus with the A380. It is the perfect size of the 5 across fuselage that I believe makes the A220 a perfect complement to the 6 abreast A320 series, and for this reason alone, the A220 will stay in production and succeed. Boeing goofed by not buying the program when they had the chance.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:02 pm

SteelChair wrote:
....
Fortunately, Bombardier sized this product correctly
....


I am not so sure about it.
 
JonesNL
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

An Airbus buy out now and Airbus could invest far more than BBD are capable of = Faster ramp = reduced build cost earlier = more profit per frame = more sales due to free production slots = freedom to build A225 which then enables A321 production slots to free up for Airbus customers and enables further attacks on the 737-8's marketshare.


The quick ROI for Airbus is an important consideration. At most the cost to Airbus is $5 billion to buy out partners, increase production, and develop the A225.

Airbus has no problem with that quantity and allows them to position the A220 profitably in the commodity part of the market.

I agree with your simplified profit logic. Airbus must skew to the higher profit market. Not to mention the A225 will certainly generate more profit than the smaller aircraft.

Boeing and Embraer are years away from reacting, time to strike. Bombardier will try to negotiate, but the have an incredibly weak hand due to over- investment in three separate product lines.

Lightsaber

I to believe the opportunity to strike is here. Even if Bombardier keeps there shares. But I am having a feeling that it would lead to an semi monopoly position for Airbus. Because what would be the potential of the A225 in terms of sales? If it really becomes an runaway success as many expect, what would the pie look like as an consequense? 80% A and 20% B?
Not sure that it's a positive outlook for aviation as it will probably lead to stagnation in innovation. Although it would be nice to see Boeing fight back from an underdog position, the prospects of working with a much higher costbasis due to lesser volume does not bode well for the future.
 
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:20 pm

SteelChair wrote:
leghorn wrote:
If Bombardier knew upon entering the deal with Airbus what they know now they might not have sold the Q400 line but then if they knew what they know now they'd never have started the CS100 development project.
They really bet the civil aviation house on the CS100/300.
It is easy to see how they pushed through with the CS100/300 based on pride rather than retrenching.
The benefit for society is that the most modern and economic narrowbody passenger plane now exists.
With some cost cutting and judicious product improvements they could have been selling the Q400 and even CRJ(no CS100 to compete with, no MRJ, failing e195-2) to a lesser extent for the best part of another decade...not sexy but low risk business.


It is interesting that there seems to be an element of pride involved in many aviation products. Fortunately, Bombardier sized this product correctly, unlike Airbus with the A380. It is the perfect size of the 5 across fuselage that I believe makes the A220 a perfect complement to the 6 abreast A320 series, and for this reason alone, the A220 will stay in production and succeed. Boeing goofed by not buying the program when they had the chance.

The c-series was sized well. A bad strategic decision to go for 3 major projects spread the talent too thin An A225 would have great economics. It will only happen if Airbus has 70% or more of the venture.


Bombardier has a cash flow. A bad negotiating position.

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Babyshark
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:54 pm

Airbus got the CSeries before Boeing realized it didn't need to kill the CSeries but buy the CSeries. Now, as expected, BBD is floundering and Airbus will get full control. Then Airbus will get rid of it. It will be a fantastic deal for Airbus for decades. It's a mean world.

The 220 as it stands today is a lemon. At least for my airline. Blame both the design and QC on the airframe and the engines. I don't see Airbus bothering with fixing it, they're in love with their own product line.

BBD is in trouble in everything it does, just googling the name for news is sad. Shame. It'd be a great case study of what not to do both as a business and as a government.
 
HaulSudson
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:11 pm

which airline do you own?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:11 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Airbus got the CSeries before Boeing realized it didn't need to kill the CSeries but buy the CSeries. Now, as expected, BBD is floundering and Airbus will get full control. Then Airbus will get rid of it. It will be a fantastic deal for Airbus for decades. It's a mean world.

The 220 as it stands today is a lemon. At least for my airline. Blame both the design and QC on the airframe and the engines. I don't see Airbus bothering with fixing it, they're in love with their own product line.

BBD is in trouble in everything it does, just googling the name for news is sad. Shame. It'd be a great case study of what not to do both as a business and as a government.


Everyone who flies it seems to like it, except those who forgot to bid.
 
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:18 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Everyone who flies it seems to like it, except those who forgot to bid.

There was no forgetting to bid: Boeing looked at the books twice and walked away, Airbus did the same once and only came back when the price was dropped to $1.

None of this is relevant to this thread's topic, BBD's current reassessment of its participation in ACLP.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:24 pm

VV wrote:
Perhaps They will give the legal status of the cooperation.

Airbus may want to isolate the C Series from the rest of the company.

It is reasonable to comp!early separate C Series operation from Airbus and to limit their liability to the amount they will put in the new entity.

C Series as it is today is a top much involvement in a risky endeavor.


Excellent point. As the A220 is a completely different architecture than the Airbus planes, it is near impossible to bring fully "in house", so best to keep it as a JV like how Airbus & Leonardo have ATR. If a disaster strikes ATR the damage limit is basically the investment Airbus has made in ATR, not the whole Airbus entity.

You have noted previously that all of the BBD layoffs and staffing changes the certification 'files' might be difficult to pick up and run with today. I am not indicating the A220 design is other than excellent, it appears to be an excellent plane, but picking up all the loose ends in the documentation after certification with the initial production changes is really hard without the original design team involved.

It isn't a popular opinion, but I feel that the CSeries will continue on as a JV, but no new A225 as it competes too much with the A320. Further it would be far easier to increase production of the A320 by 10/month compared to increasing the A220 by that. A 20% increase in the product line vs a 100% increase. I'm sure PW would prefer more A320 engines than A220 ones even if quite similar.
 
smartplane
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:43 pm

The A220 was acquired on what was very much a 'heads we win, tails you lose' basis. Something that is possible when you have participants of disparate size, financial resources and outlooks.

BBD are on the hook to inject more money, and just when it starts to pay off, can be bought out.

Airbus won't want to lose Canadian production or goodwill. February should see ownership and IP issues tidied up, a promise to maintain / increase employment, and increased production.
 
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Further it would be far easier to increase production of the A320 by 10/month compared to increasing the A220 by that. A 20% increase in the product line vs a 100% increase. I'm sure PW would prefer more A320 engines than A220 ones even if quite similar.

Yes, I'm thinking Airbus has a lot of such trade offs to make, like how much to invest in A22x vs more A32x production and/or stretch vs more A350 production.

Airbus said it would only support A225 once the program was economically viable. I think the news BBD is sharing is that at least in the short term the program is less economically viable than it had hoped. Time will tell if Airbus is willing to go against that guidance and dump in the large bags of money needed to buy out QI and BBD and ramp the production up so it can have the economy of scale to get withing reasonable distance of A32x.

If Airbus is giving any clues of its intentions, we aren't hearing about them in the media, so it seems.

smartplane wrote:
Airbus won't want to lose Canadian production or goodwill. February should see ownership and IP issues tidied up, a promise to maintain / increase employment, and increased production.

I'm looking forward to hearing more.
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VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:15 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
...

Excellent point. As the A220 is a completely different architecture than the Airbus planes, it is near impossible to bring fully "in house", so best to keep it as a JV like how Airbus & Leonardo have ATR. If a disaster strikes ATR the damage limit is basically the investment Airbus has made in ATR, not the whole Airbus entity.

You have noted previously that all of the BBD layoffs and staffing changes the certification 'files' might be difficult to pick up and run with today. I am not indicating the A220 design is other than excellent, it appears to be an excellent plane, but picking up all the loose ends in the documentation after certification with the initial production changes is really hard without the original design team involved.
...


As I discussed in the blog, at this point I am expecting a major reorganization at Airbus Canada and followed very shortly by a legal status change of the cooperation. It cannot continue this way because the risk is way too high for Airbus.

They need to find a legal status for the company that limits (or caps) the liability of all parties involved. It would also mean a whole change in the company structure including having president and CEO and so on. The CEO can come from Airbus, it does not matter much but the company has to be independent. As you say, a structure like ATR ior Boeing Brasil would be the right one.

The company can be named Airbus Canada, that is not a problem and the C Series can still be called A220. The thing is that they will need to build a complete set of staff, from engineering to sales and marketing.

We need to follow this very closely.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:35 pm

What if the CRJ deal with Mitsubishi will also close early next month? Synchronized with all the stuff?
 
astuteman
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Further it would be far easier to increase production of the A320 by 10/month compared to increasing the A220 by that. A 20% increase in the product line vs a 100% increase. I'm sure PW would prefer more A320 engines than A220 ones even if quite similar.

Yes, I'm thinking Airbus has a lot of such trade offs to make, like how much to invest in A22x vs more A32x production and/or stretch vs more A350 production.

Airbus said it would only support A225 once the program was economically viable. I think the news BBD is sharing is that at least in the short term the program is less economically viable than it had hoped. Time will tell if Airbus is willing to go against that guidance and dump in the large bags of money needed to buy out QI and BBD and ramp the production up so it can have the economy of scale to get withing reasonable distance of A32x.

If Airbus is giving any clues of its intentions, we aren't hearing about them in the media, so it seems.

smartplane wrote:
Airbus won't want to lose Canadian production or goodwill. February should see ownership and IP issues tidied up, a promise to maintain / increase employment, and increased production.

I'm looking forward to hearing more.


I can't help thinking that we're seeing Airbus "playing" here - demanding the big investments required by the partnership, but not declaring the major production increases or cost improvements that would add value to the partnership for BBD. For a bit of game theory, I can't help think that we'll see Airbus take ownership sooner rather than later, and we'll suddenly see the financials look completely different. Shades of BAE and the A380 share

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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:11 pm

VV wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
...

Excellent point. As the A220 is a completely different architecture than the Airbus planes, it is near impossible to bring fully "in house", so best to keep it as a JV like how Airbus & Leonardo have ATR. If a disaster strikes ATR the damage limit is basically the investment Airbus has made in ATR, not the whole Airbus entity.

You have noted previously that all of the BBD layoffs and staffing changes the certification 'files' might be difficult to pick up and run with today. I am not indicating the A220 design is other than excellent, it appears to be an excellent plane, but picking up all the loose ends in the documentation after certification with the initial production changes is really hard without the original design team involved.
...


As I discussed in the blog, at this point I am expecting a major reorganization at Airbus Canada and followed very shortly by a legal status change of the cooperation. It cannot continue this way because the risk is way too high for Airbus.

They need to find a legal status for the company that limits (or caps) the liability of all parties involved. It would also mean a whole change in the company structure including having president and CEO and so on. The CEO can come from Airbus, it does not matter much but the company has to be independent. As you say, a structure like ATR ior Boeing Brasil would be the right one.

The company can be named Airbus Canada, that is not a problem and the C Series can still be called A220. The thing is that they will need to build a complete set of staff, from engineering to sales and marketing.

We need to follow this very closely.


You mean, after BBD has relinquished majority of CSALP for 1 Euro/dollar, in order for CSALP to be able to:
1) tap deeper and cheaper financing sources
2) take advantage of massive synergies in worldwide sales, marketing and support system
3) take advantage of shared logistics and lower costs through integration into one of two large civil aerospace industrial eco-systems of this world

that now priority is to carve out CSALP from all of these, and make CSALP an independent company?
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VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:27 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
VV wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
...

Excellent point. As the A220 is a completely different architecture than the Airbus planes, it is near impossible to bring fully "in house", so best to keep it as a JV like how Airbus & Leonardo have ATR. If a disaster strikes ATR the damage limit is basically the investment Airbus has made in ATR, not the whole Airbus entity.

You have noted previously that all of the BBD layoffs and staffing changes the certification 'files' might be difficult to pick up and run with today. I am not indicating the A220 design is other than excellent, it appears to be an excellent plane, but picking up all the loose ends in the documentation after certification with the initial production changes is really hard without the original design team involved.
...


As I discussed in the blog, at this point I am expecting a major reorganization at Airbus Canada and followed very shortly by a legal status change of the cooperation. It cannot continue this way because the risk is way too high for Airbus.

They need to find a legal status for the company that limits (or caps) the liability of all parties involved. It would also mean a whole change in the company structure including having president and CEO and so on. The CEO can come from Airbus, it does not matter much but the company has to be independent. As you say, a structure like ATR ior Boeing Brasil would be the right one.

The company can be named Airbus Canada, that is not a problem and the C Series can still be called A220. The thing is that they will need to build a complete set of staff, from engineering to sales and marketing.

We need to follow this very closely.


You mean, after BBD has relinquished majority of CSALP for 1 Euro/dollar, in order for CSALP to be able to:
1) tap deeper and cheaper financing sources
2) take advantage of massive synergies in worldwide sales, marketing and support system
3) take advantage of shared logistics and lower costs through integration into one of two large civil aerospace industrial eco-systems of this world

that now priority is to carve out CSALP from all of these, and make CSALP an independent company?


No.

The only issue is that the current legal status of ACLP (or CSALP) is not bullet proof enough and thus presents a big risk to Airbus.

The status of "société en commandite" or limited partnership in Quebec says that the liability of the limited partnership is borne by the partners in the proportion of their stake. I am not sure there is any limit to the absolute value of the liability.

Basically if something bad happens, say there is an accident or two and the aircraft is grounded during one or two years until the investigation is closed and recommendations implemented, the liability is borne by Airbus at 50%. In other words, the one symbolic dollar suddenly becomes hundreds of millions of several billions of liability. You do not want that, especially if it is NOT your own product.

So yes, they need to change the status of the joint-venture such that the responsibility of each participant is limited to the capital they inject to it. It would be much easier to just close the endeavor if something bad happens.

As JayinKitap said, working out from documents and digging out information without the presence of the initial engineers is a tough work to do in a short time. Please remember a vast majority of those who worked in the C Series have been laid off, left to other companies or migrate to Mitsubishi engineering office in Montreal.

It is just a question of managing industrial risk.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:48 am

Quite a few have migrated to the business jet side.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:42 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Quite a few have migrated to the business jet side.


Unfortunately, some of those who migrated to the business jet side have moved again to Mitsubishi and elsewhere.

It seems the business jet segment is not doing very well either. People say the market in that area is still soft.
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:34 pm

The posts on here are entertaining. Especially from ex-employees/contractors with an axe to grind.

1) There is no need to "separate" the company. Liabilities are already limited to Airbus by the limited partnership. I'm sure they've incorporated it properly to allow them to simply bankrupt ACLP if necessary.

2) Airbus is not going to shut down the A220. The whole government involvement behind the A220 deal was specifically aimed at keeping the program running. It's why Airbus had to commit to 20 years of employment at Mirabel. Unless they want to turn Mirabel into a rate 15 A320 Facility, the A220 will not be wound down while meeting their commitments.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:19 pm

Seriously, I would prefer them to take this legal status in Canada:
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.ns ... 06641.html

At least it is very clear that the shareholders are liable up to their investment.

Otherwise, there is no change to their way of working.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:39 pm

TObound wrote:
The posts on here are entertaining. Especially from ex-employees/contractors with an axe to grind.

1) There is no need to "separate" the company. Liabilities are already limited to Airbus by the limited partnership. I'm sure they've incorporated it properly to allow them to simply bankrupt ACLP if necessary.

2) Airbus is not going to shut down the A220. The whole government involvement behind the A220 deal was specifically aimed at keeping the program running. It's why Airbus had to commit to 20 years of employment at Mirabel. Unless they want to turn Mirabel into a rate 15 A320 Facility, the A220 will not be wound down while meeting their commitments.


Hmmmm ...
They will do whatever is deemed reasonable from business perspective.

At this point nothing has been proven.
The need to make an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of Airbus' business is real.
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm

VV wrote:
TObound wrote:
The posts on here are entertaining. Especially from ex-employees/contractors with an axe to grind.

1) There is no need to "separate" the company. Liabilities are already limited to Airbus by the limited partnership. I'm sure they've incorporated it properly to allow them to simply bankrupt ACLP if necessary.

2) Airbus is not going to shut down the A220. The whole government involvement behind the A220 deal was specifically aimed at keeping the program running. It's why Airbus had to commit to 20 years of employment at Mirabel. Unless they want to turn Mirabel into a rate 15 A320 Facility, the A220 will not be wound down while meeting their commitments.


Hmmmm ...
They will do whatever is deemed reasonable from business perspective.

At this point nothing has been proven.
The need to make an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of Airbus' business is real.


You keep insinuating that they need to change the partnership model. Were you at the table representing a client when that model was discussed?

You also seem to think that just because they have formed the partnership in Quebec they they did so under a provincial structure. Unless you were a lawyer for one of the parties involved, I sincerely doubt you know how the business was structured. I'm fairly certain that all the parties involved have competent lawyers. And I would very a paycheque that Airbus would not sign on to a partnership that created unlimited liability for the parent company.

I think your time at the company has seriously clouded your judgement to the point that you don't seem to believe that anybody involved in this program can do anything competent. Even Airbus apparently.
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:15 pm

VV wrote:
Seriously, I would prefer them to take this legal status in Canada:
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cd-dgc.ns ... 06641.html

At least it is very clear that the shareholders are liable up to their investment.

Otherwise, there is no change to their way of working.


You do realize that you can have a limited partnership and incorporate right?
 
VV
Posts: 1702
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:11 pm

I really like how it sounds, "Airbus Canada Incorporated".

And then why not a public offering to raise some funds?
 
TObound
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:41 pm

VV wrote:
I really like how it sounds, "Airbus Canada Incorporated".

And then why not a public offering to raise some funds?


Stick to what you know. Because it's pretty clear you don't understand Canadian business law.

1) A name has absolutely nothing to do with how a business' governance is structured or whether they incorporated federally or provincially.

2) Incorporation does not at all imply public ownership or offerings.

Now, you claimed earlier that Airbus needed to be protected. You haven't answered my question. Were you involved in the drafting of the partnership documents and charter? How do you know that Airbus is not "protected"?
 
VV
Posts: 1702
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:26 am

TObound wrote:
...
Now, you claimed earlier that Airbus needed to be protected. You haven't answered my question. Were you involved in the drafting of the partnership documents and charter? How do you know that Airbus is not "protected"?



Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:45 am

VV wrote:
TObound wrote:
...
Now, you claimed earlier that Airbus needed to be protected. You haven't answered my question. Were you involved in the drafting of the partnership documents and charter? How do you know that Airbus is not "protected"?



Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


I do not think it is an option for Airbus to flip the finger to all stakeholders including customers when hell breaks lose. The plane has the name of Airbus on it, they can't risk the outcry that it would create. I am hoping they will own up the problem as they should. They took a gamble, they can win or either lose but they can not evade there responsibility.

And to be honest, I would expect more problems with the 787 than the A220. As the A220 didn't get the QA outcry that the 787 got.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:00 am

JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:
TObound wrote:
...
Now, you claimed earlier that Airbus needed to be protected. You haven't answered my question. Were you involved in the drafting of the partnership documents and charter? How do you know that Airbus is not "protected"?



Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


I do not think it is an option for Airbus to flip the finger to all stakeholders including customers when hell breaks lose. The plane has the name of Airbus on it, they can't risk the outcry that it would create. I am hoping they will own up the problem as they should. They took a gamble, they can win or either lose but they can not evade there responsibility.

And to be honest, I would expect more problems with the 787 than the A220. As the A220 didn't get the QA outcry that the 787 got.


Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?

I am not so sure I would.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:32 am

VV wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:


Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


I do not think it is an option for Airbus to flip the finger to all stakeholders including customers when hell breaks lose. The plane has the name of Airbus on it, they can't risk the outcry that it would create. I am hoping they will own up the problem as they should. They took a gamble, they can win or either lose but they can not evade there responsibility.

And to be honest, I would expect more problems with the 787 than the A220. As the A220 didn't get the QA outcry that the 787 got.


Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?

I am not so sure I would.


What you and I would do is quite irrelevant. Airbus already looked in the books and decided to take the bet.
 
RalXWB
Posts: 499
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:46 am

I do not know what this person is talking about. There is no CSeries only an A220. Please do not underestimate this.
 
VV
Posts: 1702
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:35 am

RalXWB wrote:
I do not know what this person is talking about. There is no CSeries only an A220. Please do not underestimate this.


Exactly.

The aircraft's name can change. Other things can change too like 'C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership" to "Airbus Canada Limited Partnership". Other things can change too.

However, the underlying design of the aircraft has not significantly changed, despite the name change.
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:52 am

And now Bombardier says they're reassessing their participation in the partnership.
I guess we should expect a significant announcement on 13 February 2020.

Another change?
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:22 am

VV wrote:
TObound wrote:
...
Now, you claimed earlier that Airbus needed to be protected. You haven't answered my question. Were you involved in the drafting of the partnership documents and charter? How do you know that Airbus is not "protected"?



Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


You've not answered my question. Were you at the table when the partnership documents were drafted?

What you can find on the internet is entirely irrelevant to what was drafted by the lawyers when the partnership was signed. Were you one of them? Yes or no?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:25 am

VV wrote:
And now Bombardier says they're reassessing their participation in the partnership.
I guess we should expect a significant announcement on 13 February 2020.

Another change?


Well that's exactly what this three day old thread is about. :confused:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:27 am

VV wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:


Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


I do not think it is an option for Airbus to flip the finger to all stakeholders including customers when hell breaks lose. The plane has the name of Airbus on it, they can't risk the outcry that it would create. I am hoping they will own up the problem as they should. They took a gamble, they can win or either lose but they can not evade there responsibility.

And to be honest, I would expect more problems with the 787 than the A220. As the A220 didn't get the QA outcry that the 787 got.


Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?

I am not so sure I would.


This is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. You don't deserve to be taken seriously after this.

Are you seriously suggesting that Airbus is incapable of due diligence during a major acquisition?
 
VV
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
And now Bombardier says they're reassessing their participation in the partnership.
I guess we should expect a significant announcement on 13 February 2020.

Another change?


Well that's exactly what this three day old thread is about. :confused:


Exactly!!!!!

There have been so many changes since January 2018

If everything were perfectly thought and planned, there wouldn't have been so many changes in such a short time.

And YET there could potentially another change to be announced on 13 February 2020.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1505
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:25 pm

You are confused. It is not because you hear some things now that they were not planned....
Signature censored
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm

VV wrote:
Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?
I am not so sure I would.



Have you ever stepped onto an aircraft that you did not have intimate knowledge of the detail design of?

Would you bet your life on something you did not even design?



As you fine well know certification of the design - and the processes behind the design - involve a large amount of due diligence by a 3rd party. Furthermore Airbus have had their own people pouring over documentation and methods prior to and since acquisition.

All new mods and all inspection interval inspection work has been done to standards of Airbus' specification, not just BBD. The MTOW growth work is being done to standards of Airbus' specification, not just BBD. [might not be exactly the same standards as they A350 went through, but they are a hybrid Airbus are happy with.]
Last edited by Amiga500 on Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
Topic Author
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:32 pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianfoley ... d159dec8aa

This opinion piece suggests only Textron may be interested in the private jet business and that they drive a hard bargain.
Unless the likes of Airbus see some business opportunities there for selling private jets and leveraging their military connections I don't know who else would come in and buy it.
Bombardier will just have to trade their way out of trouble it seems.
 
TObound
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:34 pm

Olddog wrote:
You are confused. It is not because you hear some things now that they were not planned....


He believes nothing has changed at all in the years since he was dismissed from Mirabel. That's the genesis of so many of his talking points on this program.

Amiga500 wrote:
VV wrote:
Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?
I am not so sure I would.



Have you ever stepped onto an aircraft that you did not have intimate knowledge of the detail design of?

Would you bet your life on something you did not even design?



As you fine well know certification of the design - and the processes behind the design - involve a large amount of due diligence by a 3rd party. Furthermore Airbus have had their own people pouring over documentation and methods prior to and since acquisition.

All new mods and all inspection interval inspection work has been done to standards of Airbus' specification, not just BBD. The MTOW growth work is being done to standards of Airbus' specification, not just BBD. [might not be exactly the same standards as they A350 went through, but they are a hybrid Airbus are happy with.]


Not just certification and due diligence at the time of the deal. We are now fully over 1.5 years away from the closing of the deal. Airbus has had executives and engineers on the ground for years in Mirabel now. But we're supposed to believe that they failed at due diligence, don't know how to structure partnerships to limit liability to the parent corp, and in 1.5 years in the driver's seat haven't learned much at all.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:54 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Airbus got the CSeries before Boeing realized it didn't need to kill the CSeries but buy the CSeries. Now, as expected, BBD is floundering and Airbus will get full control. Then Airbus will get rid of it. It will be a fantastic deal for Airbus for decades. It's a mean world.

The 220 as it stands today is a lemon. At least for my airline. Blame both the design and QC on the airframe and the engines. I don't see Airbus bothering with fixing it, they're in love with their own product line.

BBD is in trouble in everything it does, just googling the name for news is sad. Shame. It'd be a great case study of what not to do both as a business and as a government.

You talking about the MAX here or is your airline WestJet because this is basically what Greg-the idiot-Saretsky said minus the word “Airbus” days before Delta placed their big order.

Having said that I know which company you call your airline and I’ve seen some of the previous things you’ve said and I have trouble believing lot of it considering you assert but offer no support or reason why such is the case. If there is issues with it to the point that’s it a lemon, you guys over there surely should live up to your MRO reputation of taking lemons and making lemonade like with the other PW engines in the fleet that would normally cause trouble such as on the 757 or on the A321s that are coming.

All I’ve head about the A220 so far is that it’s actually good and from the folks at AC that it’s much better than the MAX ever will be.
VV wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:


Try to find out yourself. The "société en commandite" legal status and other stuff are available online.

In my opinion, it is more prudent to go to another stronger legal status soon. There are more and more C Series that are in-service today.

Without an impenetrable firewall between the C Series program and the rest of the company, Airbus can see its results impacted by the partnership. As of today the impact is probably minimal because Bombardier still has to provide cash if the C Series partnership has a cash shortfall.

It is important to squeeze as much investment as possible from Bombardier during the first three years of the partnership (July 2018 to July 2021) and then cut the possible "contamination vector" from the C Series program to the rest of Airbus by making the C Series operation as a completely separate legal entity.


I do not think it is an option for Airbus to flip the finger to all stakeholders including customers when hell breaks lose. The plane has the name of Airbus on it, they can't risk the outcry that it would create. I am hoping they will own up the problem as they should. They took a gamble, they can win or either lose but they can not evade there responsibility.

And to be honest, I would expect more problems with the 787 than the A220. As the A220 didn't get the QA outcry that the 787 got.


Well, they did/do not have intimate knowledge of the aircraft and they did not design it. Would you bet the farm on something you did not even design?

I am not so sure I would.

Wow, good thing you aren’t running Airbus!
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

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TObound
Posts: 776
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:35 pm

767333ER wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Airbus got the CSeries before Boeing realized it didn't need to kill the CSeries but buy the CSeries. Now, as expected, BBD is floundering and Airbus will get full control. Then Airbus will get rid of it. It will be a fantastic deal for Airbus for decades. It's a mean world.

The 220 as it stands today is a lemon. At least for my airline. Blame both the design and QC on the airframe and the engines. I don't see Airbus bothering with fixing it, they're in love with their own product line.

BBD is in trouble in everything it does, just googling the name for news is sad. Shame. It'd be a great case study of what not to do both as a business and as a government.

You talking about the MAX here or is your airline WestJet because this is basically what Greg-the idiot-Saretsky said minus the word “Airbus” days before Delta placed their big order.

Having said that I know which company you call your airline and I’ve seen some of the previous things you’ve said and I have trouble believing lot of it considering you assert but offer no support or reason why such is the case. If there is issues with it to the point that’s it a lemon, you guys over there surely should live up to your MRO reputation of taking lemons and making lemonade like with the other PW engines in the fleet that would normally cause trouble such as on the 757 or on the A321s that are coming.

All I’ve head about the A220 so far is that it’s actually good and from the folks at AC that it’s much better than the MAX ever will be.


Some folks just can't hide their biases. In this case, I think somebody just doesn't want to learn a new type....

Most telling to me on the A220 is how many airlines have exercised options or upped firm orders after taking delivery. You have airlines like Air Baltic increasing the order count despite the issues they face with the engines. Delta's already exercised a few options. And JetBlue exercised a few options before even taking a single airplane. Then we have new airlines like AF jumping in with massive orders. No hint of caution or concern there. The only more reticent group is LH and they've not really said much negative about the airplane. Then there's the rumour thread of Airbus planning on taking this to a thousand orders by year's end. Clearly all signs that Airbus intends to wind down production and kill the A220. Airline CEOs and CFOs are clearly dumbasses who love buying stranded assets apparently. /s
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:46 am

TObound wrote:
767333ER wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
Airbus got the CSeries before Boeing realized it didn't need to kill the CSeries but buy the CSeries. Now, as expected, BBD is floundering and Airbus will get full control. Then Airbus will get rid of it. It will be a fantastic deal for Airbus for decades. It's a mean world.

The 220 as it stands today is a lemon. At least for my airline. Blame both the design and QC on the airframe and the engines. I don't see Airbus bothering with fixing it, they're in love with their own product line.

BBD is in trouble in everything it does, just googling the name for news is sad. Shame. It'd be a great case study of what not to do both as a business and as a government.

You talking about the MAX here or is your airline WestJet because this is basically what Greg-the idiot-Saretsky said minus the word “Airbus” days before Delta placed their big order.

Having said that I know which company you call your airline and I’ve seen some of the previous things you’ve said and I have trouble believing lot of it considering you assert but offer no support or reason why such is the case. If there is issues with it to the point that’s it a lemon, you guys over there surely should live up to your MRO reputation of taking lemons and making lemonade like with the other PW engines in the fleet that would normally cause trouble such as on the 757 or on the A321s that are coming.

All I’ve head about the A220 so far is that it’s actually good and from the folks at AC that it’s much better than the MAX ever will be.


Some folks just can't hide their biases. In this case, I think somebody just doesn't want to learn a new type....

Most telling to me on the A220 is how many airlines have exercised options or upped firm orders after taking delivery. You have airlines like Air Baltic increasing the order count despite the issues they face with the engines. Delta's already exercised a few options. And JetBlue exercised a few options before even taking a single airplane. Then we have new airlines like AF jumping in with massive orders. No hint of caution or concern there. The only more reticent group is LH and they've not really said much negative about the airplane. Then there's the rumour thread of Airbus planning on taking this to a thousand orders by year's end. Clearly all signs that Airbus intends to wind down production and kill the A220. Airline CEOs and CFOs are clearly dumbasses who love buying stranded assets apparently. /s

Well it could be anything but most likely is either nationalism, fanboyism, or some other unfounded bias. This is the same person that claims, if I read it right, (In another thread) that a 30 year old A320 can have similar economics as an A220-100 so operating one A320 a day is much better than to of those. One has to wonder how this is the case when it is widely accepted that the slightly bigger A220-300 has similar economics to the A320N which is much more economic than than the original A320-200s. Surely a little bit of a shrink on a clean sheet aircraft can’t set you back 30 years in CASM. That outrageous so to believe that one has to be biased and living in a land of fallacies and fiction.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
HaulSudson
Posts: 101
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Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:29 am

Gentlemen, before judging, please give the owner of Delta Airlines the opportunity to substantiate his claim that his A220s are lemons.
 
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PepeTheFrog
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Bombardier reassessing future participation in Airbus Canada Limited Partnership

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:09 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Revelation wrote:
For instance, if Airbus can make $4B become available, does it make sense to spend it on buying out A220 versus spending it on building a super-FAL for A320 family using the A380 halls at TLS and/or financing a A322 stretch as a NMA entrant, and letting BBD's missteps play out a bit further?


Airbus might do both. Companies the size of Airbus have multiple investments running.

The A321 XLR line in TLS will become reality, and they will buy the remaining CSeries shares.


As predicted: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... louse.html

Step 1 announced, step 2 to come.
Good moaning!

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