edealinfo
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KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:55 am

 
tullamarine
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:15 am

It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.
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Varsity1
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:18 am

Any idea what tail or SN? I'd be interested to know the times and cycles if we could find it out.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:25 am

LOL. SBI could have paid off $13M to EXIM and got decent value on 10x77W a year back. Now they will get far less after one more year depreciation, condition penalties and parking fees.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:29 am

tullamarine wrote:
It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.

viewtopic.php?t=1422705 from eight months ago suggests 77Ws going at $55.0 – 155.0M so it's more than depressed if $28M gets you a 77W and two slots.

Since this is all in the context of the Jet Airways bankruptcy, it seems it is a sale of distressed properties, not one at market value.
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Dieuwer
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:38 am

Good move by KL. Basically they got either the plane for free (slots easily worth $28M) or got the slots for free.
 
HB-IWC
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:45 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Any idea what tail or SN? I'd be interested to know the times and cycles if we could find it out.


Coul it be VT-JEW? As far as I know, that aircraft sits in Amsterdam. Line number 660.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:04 am

I doubt this is even true. Only source is an obscure Indian newspaper; no reports in Dutch or international press. Slot-trading for a financial compensation has never happened at AMS and likely isn't even allowed in The Netherlands (legal opinions aren't completely sure, see http://www.seo.nl/uploads/media/2018-29 ... hiphol.pdf (PDF, Dutch)). And there's a political debate about the expansion of AMS and it's environmental impact which would make it a stupid move to buy second hand planes.

If slot-trading was allowed FlyBe wouldn't need UK taxpayer money. They have over 10.000 yearly flights at AMS.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:18 am

Jetty wrote:
I doubt this is even true. Only source is an obscure Indian newspaper; no reports in Dutch or international press. Slot-trading for a financial compensation has never happened at AMS and likely isn't even allowed in The Netherlands (legal opinions aren't completely sure, see http://www.seo.nl/uploads/media/2018-29 ... hiphol.pdf (PDF, Dutch)). And there's a political debate about the expansion of AMS and it's environmental impact which would make it a stupid move to buy second hand planes.

If slot-trading was allowed FlyBe wouldn't need UK taxpayer money. They have over 10.000 yearly flights at AMS.


Now you know it’s true...

https://centreforaviation.com/news/jet- ... klm-968697
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:23 am

HB-IWC wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Any idea what tail or SN? I'd be interested to know the times and cycles if we could find it out.


Coul it be VT-JEW? As far as I know, that aircraft sits in Amsterdam. Line number 660.


Probably 100 percent correct. This is the Only plane that was seized at AMS airport by Jet Airways Creditors. This would also close out the Dutch bankruptcy administrator’s work. Also, it is the most realistic option to sell an asset in foreign land (non Indian land) otherwise a gazillion officials in the Indian bureaucracy would have had to sign off of the sale.
 
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:27 am

Revelation wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.

viewtopic.php?t=1422705 from eight months ago suggests 77Ws going at $55.0 – 155.0M so it's more than depressed if $28M gets you a 77W and two slots.

Since this is all in the context of the Jet Airways bankruptcy, it seems it is a sale of distressed properties, not one at market value.


It is a 12.4 year old 777-300 ER so they got at least 50 percent off market vale plus free AMS slots valued for an equivalent amount. So basically, KLM made a $50 million profit from this transaction or stated in another way Jet’s creditors (INdian banks) lost potentially $50 million as a result of the distressed sale
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:31 am

edealinfo wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I doubt this is even true. Only source is an obscure Indian newspaper; no reports in Dutch or international press. Slot-trading for a financial compensation has never happened at AMS and likely isn't even allowed in The Netherlands (legal opinions aren't completely sure, see http://www.seo.nl/uploads/media/2018-29 ... hiphol.pdf (PDF, Dutch)). And there's a political debate about the expansion of AMS and it's environmental impact which would make it a stupid move to buy second hand planes.

If slot-trading was allowed FlyBe wouldn't need UK taxpayer money. They have over 10.000 yearly flights at AMS.


Now you know it’s true...

https://centreforaviation.com/news/jet- ... klm-968697

Not really, it’s behind a paywall. Going only by the title it might be that 9W creditors approve it but that doesn’t necessarily mean KL approves it as well. Only thing I can imagine is that the 23 million is owed to KL(+AF) anyway and that they don’t care about rather useless assets as it’s unlikely they’ll get their money anyway.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:39 am

Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I doubt this is even true. Only source is an obscure Indian newspaper; no reports in Dutch or international press. Slot-trading for a financial compensation has never happened at AMS and likely isn't even allowed in The Netherlands (legal opinions aren't completely sure, see http://www.seo.nl/uploads/media/2018-29 ... hiphol.pdf (PDF, Dutch)). And there's a political debate about the expansion of AMS and it's environmental impact which would make it a stupid move to buy second hand planes.

If slot-trading was allowed FlyBe wouldn't need UK taxpayer money. They have over 10.000 yearly flights at AMS.


Now you know it’s true...

https://centreforaviation.com/news/jet- ... klm-968697

Not really, it’s behind a paywall. Going only by the title it might be that 9W creditors approve it but that doesn’t necessarily mean KL approves it as well. Only thing I can imagine is that the 23 million is owed to KL(+AF) anyway and that they don’t care about rather useless assets as it’s unlikely they’ll get their money anyway.


No way, KL is going to be paid before INdian banks so your hypothesis is unfounded
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:46 am

edealinfo wrote:
Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Not really, it’s behind a paywall. Going only by the title it might be that 9W creditors approve it but that doesn’t necessarily mean KL approves it as well. Only thing I can imagine is that the 23 million is owed to KL(+AF) anyway and that they don’t care about rather useless assets as it’s unlikely they’ll get their money anyway.


No way, KL is going to be paid before INdian banks so your hypothesis is unfounded

Well, apparently the plane is in AMS already and confiscated so Indian banks don’t have the leverage they would have over Indian assets. The slots will be forfeited because they aren’t used (if that didn’t already happen) so no leverage there either.
 
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:51 am

The Jet 777s have the ridiculous suites with real Granite, supposedly making their dry weight ~20 tonnes heavier than that of any other 77W operator. Definitely in need of a refit.
First to fly the 787-9
 
VictorKilo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:12 am

Are all of the maintenance records required to put the plane into regular service physically contained within the plane at AM, or were they located at 9W at the time of seizure? Without those records the value of this plane is just the scrap value and the value of the parts that can be re-certified or do not need recertification. Still, scrap value + AMS slots may be still be a good value at this price.
 
dstblj52
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:38 am

VictorKilo wrote:
Are all of the maintenance records required to put the plane into regular service physically contained within the plane at AM, or were they located at 9W at the time of seizure? Without those records the value of this plane is just the scrap value and the value of the parts that can be re-certified or do not need recertification. Still, scrap value + AMS slots may be still be a good value at this price.

Its a 12-year-old plane it's about time for it to get a D check anyway, so its probably going to be put back into service after a full overhaul.
 
TSA125
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:12 am

tullamarine wrote:
It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.


Since when is EY letting go of any 77W's recently? Are there any leases coming up already?
No not that TSA.
 
Someone83
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 am

Has KLM confirmed anything?
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:35 am

Additional reporting in the international press with no mention of which assets are involved..

Bankrupt Indian airline Jet Airways Ltd JET.NS said it had agreed to sell its assets in Netherlands to Dutch airline KLM. If the deal is finalised, it will only involve a sale of part of the company's business and not impact the shareholding pattern, Jet said in a statement dated Jan. 16. It did not detail the assets held in Netherlands.
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/indias- ... 2020-01-16

This seems about the Jet Airways (india) Limited entity registered in The Netherlands which was declared bankrupt by a Dutch court already before the Indian entity.

The 777 @ AMS and some other planes could be released by Exim Bank if X amount was payed. It might be that KL payed the money to release all planes and got a cheap 777 in return. They might not even fly it and done that just because it was a convenient deal for all parties involved.

The slots can be transferred to KL because they had a codeshare with 9W. No slot trading is allowed at AMS otherwise (except for swapping) thus they would have been worthless for any other airline. The slots had to be dealt with because since the 1st of January a temporary provision for 9W's slots lapsed and they would be forfeited when left unused.

Site with Dutch insolvency proceedings: https://www.potjonker.nl/faillissementv ... 1110886247
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 am

dstblj52 wrote:
Its a 12-year-old plane it's about time for it to get a D check anyway, so its probably going to be put back into service after a full overhaul.


The tyres and engines weren't even covered, telling a story about the 'storing' of this frame. This and the interior being completely different also point to a complete overhaul/D-check.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:31 am

inkjet7 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Its a 12-year-old plane it's about time for it to get a D check anyway, so its probably going to be put back into service after a full overhaul.


The tyres and engines weren't even covered, telling a story about the 'storing' of this frame. This and the interior being completely different also point to a complete overhaul/D-check.


It's an Indian airplane. It will require extensive maintenance even if it came direct from a D-check with the original operator.
 
76er
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:58 am

The thread title is incorrect, slots at AMS can not be sold or bought. They are distributed via an independant slot coordinator. Unless of course the Jet slots were on loan from KL, as had been mentioned here.
In case anyone is interested in learning more about the slot system at AMS: https://slotcoordination.nl/
 
Airliner1973
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:22 am

The following is reported in the Netherlands on luchtvaartnieuws.nl:
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... en-aan-klm

It contains a link to a PDF from the Stock Exchange in India:
https://www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpf ... 12664f.pdf

The PDF does not mention the plane (luchtvaartnieuws.nl does mention it) specifically . . .
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:32 am

76er wrote:
The thread title is incorrect, slots at AMS can not be sold or bought. They are distributed via an independant slot coordinator.

If it's constructed as a partial takeover the slots can be included.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:46 am

KL has confirmed a deal is in the making: https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/130 ... et-airways (Dutch).

They say they want to take over Jet's activities in The Netherlands and keep their business running.:lol: In my opinion it's a ploy to get hold of the slots (more than 2) which can't be sold separately. Jet has absolutely no meaningful business left in The Netherlands: everyone has left the office a long time ago and the Dutch trustee didn't mention any assets except for a vacant office and a random overweight 777 without documentation which happened to get seized at AMS. In return KL does the Indian trustee of Jet a favor by paying off the Exim bank so the 777's that er currently in India can be dealt with. I doubt KL wil ever fly the plane.
 
na
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:25 am

To buy a single used plane doensnt sound like KLM at all. If anything, maybe for parts? Those jet Aw. 77W which haven´t raised any buyers in 8 months must surely be some of the worlds worst maintained samples.
 
PepeTheFrog
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:30 am

na wrote:
To buy a single used plane doensnt sound like KLM at all.


AFAIK they have done that before.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:45 am

So as usual Indian news paper combined two unrelated topics and published as one juicy story, nothing out of norm.

$23Million is a good deal, it landed at AMS in flying condition, even with D-Check, recreating paper work and cabin refit it is still a good deal.

BTW, Who is going to clear one year parking fees at AMS?

I am guessing Indian authorities would throw a fit if this transaction happens completely outside India, without their year long process and thousands of approvals. My suggestion to KLM if this ever enters service, don't send it to India.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:53 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
BTW, Who is going to clear one year parking fees at AMS?

If it happens as reported in Dutch press KL takes over all liabilities and assets in The Netherlands: a few outstanding bills, a plane and slots.

I am guessing Indian authorities would throw a fit if this transaction happens completely outside India, without their year long process and thousands of approvals. My suggestion to KLM if this ever enters service, don't send it to India.

That’s not the case. There is a separate bankruptcy proceeding in The Netherlands but after months of trying to get in contact with his Indian counterpart and taking him to Indian court the Dutch trustee now reached some kind of cooperation.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:59 am

Jetty wrote:
That’s not the case. There is a separate bankruptcy proceeding in The Netherlands but after months of trying to get in contact with his Indian counterpart and taking him to Indian court the Dutch trustee now reached some kind of cooperation.


Agreed, but don't underestimate Indian Customs. If an oil seal gets changed as part of D-Check and plane lands in India with new oil seal, they can write you up for unauthorized export of old oil seal and illegal import of new oil seal.
 
IWMBH
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Jetty wrote:
That’s not the case. There is a separate bankruptcy proceeding in The Netherlands but after months of trying to get in contact with his Indian counterpart and taking him to Indian court the Dutch trustee now reached some kind of cooperation.


Agreed, but don't underestimate Indian Customs. If an oil seal gets changed as part of D-Check and plane lands in India with new oil seal, they can write you up for unauthorized export of old oil seal and illegal import of new oil seal.


do you have a source for this?
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:32 pm

IWMBH wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Jetty wrote:
That’s not the case. There is a separate bankruptcy proceeding in The Netherlands but after months of trying to get in contact with his Indian counterpart and taking him to Indian court the Dutch trustee now reached some kind of cooperation.


Agreed, but don't underestimate Indian Customs. If an oil seal gets changed as part of D-Check and plane lands in India with new oil seal, they can write you up for unauthorized export of old oil seal and illegal import of new oil seal.


do you have a source for this?


I recall hearing similar stories from people working in or passing through India.
 
waly777
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:00 pm

tullamarine wrote:
It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.



Simply untrue, the 77W market is still robust. Airlines are generally holding on to their 77W. What has lost value are 773 and 77E, demand is low and supply is widely available.

In addition, EY has not let go of any 77W.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:10 pm

waly777 wrote:
Simply untrue, the 77W market is still robust. Airlines are generally holding on to their 77W. What has lost value are 773 and 77E, demand is low and supply is widely available.

In addition, EY has not let go of any 77W.


I doubt it after DL's purchase of MH 772 (shell) for $10 Million and this reasonable condition 77W for $23 Million. What makes you think 9W lenders will not sell other 9x77Ws for same price. One is a distress sale, 10 is a FMV.

I am sure owners/management at certain airline are hitting red panic button. That is not DL's problem.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:25 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Agreed, but don't underestimate Indian Customs. If an oil seal gets changed as part of D-Check and plane lands in India with new oil seal, they can write you up for unauthorized export of old oil seal and illegal import of new oil seal.


This is an excellent analogy of the Indian bureaucracy. Most often those imposing the restrictions intend to harass the airline but others in the bureaucracy actually think they are being diligent and doing their job “by the book” regardless of whether it makes any sense.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I doubt it after DL's purchase of MH 772 (shell) for $10 Million and this reasonable condition 77W for $23 Million. What makes you think 9W lenders will not sell other 9x77Ws for same price. One is a distress sale, 10 is a FMV.


I honestly doubt most Jet Airways planes can be considered "reasonable in condition". A source of mine tells me the scrapman is already on the way to chop up a pair of them because they are in too bad condition to recover. Indian import duties on spare parts and difficulty in gaining access to airports don't help.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I doubt it after DL's purchase of MH 772 (shell) for $10 Million and this reasonable condition 77W for $23 Million. What makes you think 9W lenders will not sell other 9x77Ws for same price. One is a distress sale, 10 is a FMV.


I honestly doubt most Jet Airways planes can be considered "reasonable in condition". A source of mine tells me the scrapman is already on the way to chop up a pair of them because they are in too bad condition to recover. Indian import duties on spare parts and difficulty in gaining access to airports don't help.


That is the collective perception based on a set of bad habits and a lot of bad publicity.

Go through entire fleet list of King Fisher, not one scrapped. Read all threads about scrapped/cannibalized VT-ALH/VT-ANI on this site and see what those are doing now-a-days.

Indian aviation journalists/bloggers and pundits doesn't know the difference between mothballing and cannibalizing. Added to this some greedy secondary lessors thought these stories will help frames get deregisted quickly.

Indians have no concept of cleanness, organization or documentation. They pull out all avionics,remove engines and dump in a wear house, and leave the shell to elements. No mylar covering. Monsoon rain and dirt from semi-arid environment, you get the worst looking frame in weeks.

If you are looking for documentation where everything stored you may not find one, but ask Joe where are the components for VT-xyz, he will bring everything back.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Go through entire fleet list of King Fisher, not one scrapped.


In fairness, I have first-hand experience with aircraft that came from both, and the difference was night and day. The engineers say the same. Jet Airways was just bad. The Kingfisher planes generally weren't too old, something like 4 or 5 years. Jet Airways had much older planes. The 777s must be between 12 and 13 years of age? The 737 fleet dates as far back as 1998.

While none were technically scrapped, there are certainly more than a handful of not too old Kingfisher/Kingfisher Red ATRs that just got pushed out into the grass to rot, which in my book counts as the same.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Go through entire fleet list of King Fisher, not one scrapped.


In fairness, I have first-hand experience with aircraft that came from both, and the difference was night and day. The engineers say the same. Jet Airways was just bad. The Kingfisher planes generally weren't too old, something like 4 or 5 years. Jet Airways had much older planes. The 777s must be between 12 and 13 years of age? The 737 fleet dates as far back as 1998.

While none were technically scrapped, there are certainly more than a handful of not too old Kingfisher/Kingfisher Red ATRs that just got pushed out into the grass to rot, which in my book counts as the same.


Those KF ATRs were not leased. Owned by VJM/KF thru Caribbean shell companies, now property of Indian Tax authorities. Just like State Bank of India hoarding 9W frames, Tax man also hanging on to these. In India governments can change on a dime and today's convict could be tomorrow's Prime Minister's buddy. No government official want to risk their jobs by selling these.

If you read my statement
even with D-Check, recreating paper work and cabin refit it is still a good deal


AF/KL has GE90 engine shop, Delta can best prices for interior refit. I don't see any issues bringing this back to service.
 
airbazar
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:10 pm

I didn't think AMS slots were monetized and allowed to be sold/bought. Is that new?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:24 pm

airbazar wrote:
I didn't think AMS slots were monetized and allowed to be sold/bought. Is that new?


Looks like slots were transferred as an inalienable part of the company that held them, as part of bankruptcy process in the Netherlands.
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:45 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I didn't think AMS slots were monetized and allowed to be sold/bought. Is that new?


Looks like slots were transferred as an inalienable part of the company that held them, as part of bankruptcy process in the Netherlands.


Yup and it makes sense to me since the Jet Netherlands company would be sold (assets and liabilities - think there was salary owed To Dutch employees). Anyway, all of Jet’s AMS slots (they had 3 arrivals and departures) are prime morning arrival and departures I believe 9am arrival and 11:45am or so departures (they varied a bit). But needless to say all slots are prime slots for US/NA and India. Hopefully this allows KLM to offer BOM 7X year round and expand BLR to 7X. Btw Jet’s 77W that flew to AMS seemed fine to me (obviously don’t know engine etc). I loved flying Jet on the 77W AMS-BOM. Jet’s cabin was so spacious in J and their F was also good. They were one of the early airlines to get the sky interior (the huge overhead bins, mood lighting etc). The planes do lack WiFi. But I am sure KLM can refresh the plane. Look at what Delta did with their 764. Jet’s 77W are brand new when you compare to how run down the 764s had become. Btw KLM managed Jet in AMS. They bought their usual efficiency to Jet’s ground handling. Add to that Jet’s service and great food offerings in J and it is such a loss. Just flew KLM AMS-BOM on their 789. Great product but the food was poor (both main meal and the saddest pre arrival meal I’ve been served into BOM).
 
KL682
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:46 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Are all of the maintenance records required to put the plane into regular service physically contained within the plane at AM, or were they located at 9W at the time of seizure? Without those records the value of this plane is just the scrap value and the value of the parts that can be re-certified or do not need recertification. Still, scrap value + AMS slots may be still be a good value at this price.

Its a 12-year-old plane it's about time for it to get a D check anyway, so its probably going to be put back into service after a full overhaul.


777's do not have D-Checks, only C-Checks with extended work, so they come in C1, C2 etc.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:08 pm

So AMS becomes the next airport after LHR and LGW where a pair of slots starts trading at millions of dollars at a 'full' airport (in AMS case, artificially maxed out movements by the govt). It would indeed be interesting at what rate a pair of peak slots at AMS would fetch in the open market, and not part of some closet distressed sale.

Thanks to Revelation for finding the topic I was hunting for with the market lease rates at the time of that feed. If anyone has the updated list, with a 777-300ER on it greatly appreciated. Would give more clarity to the valuations/or 'windfall' to the above price.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:37 pm

What is unclear is if KLM got all the 3 pairs of Jet’s AMS slots or just 1 pair. If it didn’t get the other 2 pairs, why not???? Could it be that of the 3 slot pairs that Jet had, only 1 was owned and the other 2 loaned by KLM?
 
edealinfo
Topic Author
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:41 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
So AMS becomes the next airport after LHR and LGW where a pair of slots starts trading at millions of dollars at a 'full' airport (in AMS case, artificially maxed out movements by the govt). It would indeed be interesting at what rate a pair of peak slots at AMS would fetch in the open market, and not part of some closet distressed sale.
.


Isn’t this essentially the business case for the A380?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 pm

KL682 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
Are all of the maintenance records required to put the plane into regular service physically contained within the plane at AM, or were they located at 9W at the time of seizure? Without those records the value of this plane is just the scrap value and the value of the parts that can be re-certified or do not need recertification. Still, scrap value + AMS slots may be still be a good value at this price.

Its a 12-year-old plane it's about time for it to get a D check anyway, so its probably going to be put back into service after a full overhaul.


777's do not have D-Checks, only C-Checks with extended work, so they come in C1, C2 etc.

It is possible to differ maintenance to effectively create a HMV. That is penny wise and pound foolish, but Jet ran out of pennies.

I suspect the Jet 777s are needing a few million more in care.

Lightsaber
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Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:01 am

edealinfo wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
So AMS becomes the next airport after LHR and LGW where a pair of slots starts trading at millions of dollars at a 'full' airport (in AMS case, artificially maxed out movements by the govt). It would indeed be interesting at what rate a pair of peak slots at AMS would fetch in the open market, and not part of some closet distressed sale.
.


Isn’t this essentially the business case for the A380?

Definitely not. AMS is as big as it is because it has most international flight movements out of any airport. There are tons of possibilities to upgrade capacity without needing an A380. Less than a dozen destinations have a 77W or bigger daily.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:39 am

Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
So AMS becomes the next airport after LHR and LGW where a pair of slots starts trading at millions of dollars at a 'full' airport (in AMS case, artificially maxed out movements by the govt). It would indeed be interesting at what rate a pair of peak slots at AMS would fetch in the open market, and not part of some closet distressed sale.
.


Isn’t this essentially the business case for the A380?

Definitely not. AMS is as big as it is because it has most international flight movements out of any airport. There are tons of possibilities to upgrade capacity without needing an A380. Less than a dozen destinations have a 77W or bigger daily.

To expand, KLM's business model is high utilization. Their aircraft sit less than competing airlines. Thus KLM sacrifices some yield to boost aircraft utilization. To do that with any airframe requires 7+ destinations. KLM could only justify 3 or 4 destinations with the A380.

AMS needs upgauging of narrowbody aircraft, not widebodies.
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