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Dieuwer
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:59 am

And with the new “Nitrogen Regulations”, AMS won’t see any capacity increases anytime soon.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:41 am

Even needing a D-check, KLM just got a nice deal on a 77W, which can hang around few years for pax work before getting converted to a cargo plane. The book values are low enough such that this would be a valid route from the get-go.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:02 am

lightsaber wrote:


AMS needs upgauging of narrowbody aircraft, not widebodies.


Well, maybe A332's to 77W's or 787-10's but A380's are definitely a step too far for most airlines. And the upgauging of narrow bodies is underway, think of swapping E190/75L's for new E195-E2's.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:05 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
Even needing a D-check, KLM just got a nice deal on a 77W, which can hang around few years for pax work before getting converted to a cargo plane. The book values are low enough such that this would be a valid route from the get-go.


Looks like KLM hasn't decided about this frame yet. It has been out in the open for months without maintenance, no engine or wheel covers even.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:07 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Even needing a D-check, KLM just got a nice deal on a 77W, which can hang around few years for pax work before getting converted to a cargo plane. The book values are low enough such that this would be a valid route from the get-go.


Looks like KLM hasn't decided about this frame yet. It has been out in the open for months without maintenance, no engine or wheel covers even.


So, the $23M is probably what they valued for the slots alone, with the aircraft, the unnecessary "baggage" that came with it .....in order to secure the slots.

No one has yet responded as to why KLM is only getting one AMS slot pair and not the 3 slot pairs that Jet had
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:08 pm

Any impact on aviation with recent decision by City of Amsterdam to fight over-tourism. Less O&D and more Sixth Freedom, maybe.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Isn’t this essentially the business case for the A380?

Definitely not. AMS is as big as it is because it has most international flight movements out of any airport. There are tons of possibilities to upgrade capacity without needing an A380. Less than a dozen destinations have a 77W or bigger daily.

To expand, KLM's business model is high utilization. Their aircraft sit less than competing airlines. Thus KLM sacrifices some yield to boost aircraft utilization. To do that with any airframe requires 7+ destinations. KLM could only justify 3 or 4 destinations with the A380.

AMS needs upgauging of narrowbody aircraft, not widebodies.


As always, thank you for the clear and logical explanations and views.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:50 pm

edealinfo wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
Even needing a D-check, KLM just got a nice deal on a 77W, which can hang around few years for pax work before getting converted to a cargo plane. The book values are low enough such that this would be a valid route from the get-go.


Looks like KLM hasn't decided about this frame yet. It has been out in the open for months without maintenance, no engine or wheel covers even.


So, the $23M is probably what they valued for the slots alone, with the aircraft, the unnecessary "baggage" that came with it .....in order to secure the slots.

No one has yet responded as to why KLM is only getting one AMS slot pair and not the 3 slot pairs that Jet had

One slotpair was loaned from KLM.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Any impact on aviation with recent decision by City of Amsterdam to fight over-tourism. Less O&D and more Sixth Freedom, maybe.

The city has no say over the airport and it isn't even within it's borders. Only result might be slightly less demand, but the impact is so small that the effects are hard to measure. Numbers are up still y-o-y.
 
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Rikmeleet
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:26 pm

Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:


The city has no say over the airport and it isn't even within it's borders. Only result might be slightly less demand, but the impact is so small that the effects are hard to measure. Numbers are up still y-o-y.



But the city is a shareholder.

https://www.schiphol.nl/en/schiphol-gro ... formation/
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:30 pm

https://simpleflying.com/jet-airways-amsterdam-slots/

According to the article in the link above, (a year old - dated May 29, 2019) before Jet went belly up, it had 4 slot pairs at AMS, connecting Mumbai, Bengaluru and Delhi, and one to Toronto in Canada. This would imply 8 single slots (4 times two, one for each landing and take off).

The article then goes on to say:

"Dutch airline KLM have reportedly taken over airport slots previously operated by Jet Airways. The slots, based at the busy Schiphol Airport, have been going unused since the Indian carrier stopped flying in March this year.

The KLM flights are planned to start from October onwards, with the Dutch carrier adding three flights per week to Bengaluru and a daily flight to Mumbai. This will complement its current offerings of three times a week to Mumbai and a daily flight to Delhi."

The article suggests that KLM's Mumbai frequency went from 3X to 7X (a net addition of 4X), and 3X to BLR. This means that of the 4 slot pains, or 8 single slots only a subset was used (can someone do the calculation for the subset?). My calculation is that it works out to be just 1 slot pair out of the 4 slot pairs. Is that correct? If so, there are 3 remaining of which 1 slot pair is now going to KLM as part of the Jet's Netherland business sale. What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?
 
LJ
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 pm

edealinfo wrote:
What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?


They went into the general pool of slots (what will happen to these slots if they're not used).
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:31 pm

edealinfo wrote:
The article suggests that KLM's Mumbai frequency went from 3X to 7X (a net addition of 4X), and 3X to BLR. This means that of the 4 slot pains, or 8 single slots only a subset was used (can someone do the calculation for the subset?). My calculation is that it works out to be just 1 slot pair out of the 4 slot pairs. Is that correct? If so, there are 3 remaining of which 1 slot pair is now going to KLM as part of the Jet's Netherland business sale. What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?

KL didn't necessarily use those slots for India flights so you can't really make a connection between Jet's former slots and KL's new India flights. The 2 slots mentioned on some Indian websites isn't corroborated by any source and all Dutch and International media mention that KL might take over all Jet's Dutch assets thus all slots as well (in addition to the slots loaned to Jet which they automatically got back)..

LJ wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?


They went into the general pool of slots (what will happen to these slots if they're not used).

Slot coordination at AMS allowed Jet to keep it's slots till the 1st of January because of the special circumstances, now 'use it or lose it' applies again. This means the deal has to be finalized rather quickly.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:43 pm

LJ wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?


They went into the general pool of slots (what will happen to these slots if they're not used).


What 9W had was either allotted to 9W or loaned 9W by KL. Why would KL let the loaned ones go to general pool. SkyTeam definitely needs more AMS slots.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:10 pm

Rikmeleet wrote:
Jetty wrote:
edealinfo wrote:



But the city is a shareholder.

https://www.schiphol.nl/en/schiphol-gro ... formation/

Indeed, for 20% while the Dutch state has 70%. Thus it gives them no means to influence decisions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:19 pm

Presumably, KLM will have to start a new 7X weekly to India to keep the facade of taking over the Jet slot. So where could this be deployed. here are the options, I would think:

a) Increase Bangaluru (BLR) from 3X to 7X, and start 3X to either Hyderabad (HYD) or Chennai (MAA)

b) Start 7X to MAA

c) Increase Bangaluru (BLR) from 3X to 5X, and start 3X to Hyderabad (HYD) AND 4X Chennai (MAA)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:17 pm

European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:00 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.

Interesting info and thanks for sharing.
 
Eikie
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:45 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.

This is nonsense.. KLM can start whatever route they want. The union will only care if the route violates agreed working times and such.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:29 pm

Eikie wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.

This is nonsense.. KLM can start whatever route they want. The union will only care if the route violates agreed working times and such.


Of course it will be vehemently denied. Yes EU legacies can start whatever route they want, question is why aren't they, particularly to "exotic" locations?

Naming a destination as low-yield is safer than dealing with union grievances. Lets see how many more years this model can sustain.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Eikie wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.

This is nonsense.. KLM can start whatever route they want. The union will only care if the route violates agreed working times and such.


Of course it will be vehemently denied. Yes EU legacies can start whatever route they want, question is why aren't they, particularly to "exotic" locations?

Naming a destination as low-yield is safer than dealing with union grievances. Lets see how many more years this model can sustain.

Help me out here dtw, in all the year, more then 25 , me and my wife have never heard of this. She works for the airline by the way. Where did you get this info from?
Flying blue only if possible
 
bennett123
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:16 pm

What do you mean by ‘exotic locations’?.
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Eikie wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
European carriers cannot start new stations without union approval, so usually they increase frequency to existing stations. From management perspective it is a easy way out rather than picking a fight with the union or give into their demands. This is a major hindrance for growth in a competitive market.

This is nonsense.. KLM can start whatever route they want. The union will only care if the route violates agreed working times and such.


Of course it will be vehemently denied. Yes EU legacies can start whatever route they want, question is why aren't they, particularly to "exotic" locations?

Naming a destination as low-yield is safer than dealing with union grievances. Lets see how many more years this model can sustain.


What are you on about? This isn't the US, unions don't have that sort of power here.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:

What are you on about? This isn't the US, unions don't have that sort of power here.


Err; aren't the unions stronger in Europe that in the US? Isn't France shut down most of the time for some reason or the other? (the latest issue being pension reforms)

And aren't there strikes or planned strikes at Lufthansa and BA that never seem to end? And, isn't Alitalia still operating from illegal loan-subsides from the State? That couldn't happen without union-power. or are BA, Lufthansa and Alitalia, not part of Europe?

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 39021.html
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:06 pm

edealinfo wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

What are you on about? This isn't the US, unions don't have that sort of power here.


Err; aren't the unions stronger in Europe that in the US? Isn't France shut down most of the time for some reason or the other? (the latest issue being pension reforms)

And aren't there strikes or planned strikes at Lufthansa and BA that never seem to end? And, isn't Alitalia still operating from illegal loan-subsides from the State? That couldn't happen without union-power. or are BA, Lufthansa and Alitalia, not part of Europe?

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 39021.html


All of those you just listed were about holding on to the last shreds of decent working conditions, not about blocking new routes.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:45 pm

A detailed discussion on why EU legacies cannot serve exotic destinations doesn't belong here. There may not be any direct evidence because no CEO is going to say it, but there are enough clues to connect the dots. Maybe on different thread.
All posts are just opinions.
 
LJ
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
LJ wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
What happened to the remaining 2 slot pairs? Did those 2 originally belong to KLM and were leased to Jet, so KLM just took it back automatically and used it on other routes?


They went into the general pool of slots (what will happen to these slots if they're not used).


What 9W had was either allotted to 9W or loaned 9W by KL. Why would KL let the loaned ones go to general pool. SkyTeam definitely needs more AMS slots.


AFAIK KLM want the slot to be used but it's allocated to 9W. The entity holding the slot isn't gone yet thus AFAIK the slot is still in 9Ws name. If the slot isn't used for a certain period of time, it's going to the pool, like the other 3 slots.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:51 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
A detailed discussion on why EU legacies cannot serve exotic destinations doesn't belong here. There may not be any direct evidence because no CEO is going to say it, but there are enough clues to connect the dots. Maybe on different thread.

You made the claim about KL as well, not only is there no direct evidence, there is no evidence at all. Last year KL added Guanacaste Libera, an airport with 1 million passangers in Costa Rica. If that isn’t an ‘exotic’ destination I don’t know what is.

edealinfo wrote:
Err; aren't the unions stronger in Europe that in the US? Isn't France shut down most of the time for some reason or the other? (the latest issue being pension reforms)

And aren't there strikes or planned strikes at Lufthansa and BA that never seem to end? And, isn't Alitalia still operating from illegal loan-subsides from the State? That couldn't happen without union-power. or are BA, Lufthansa and Alitalia, not part of Europe

All true, but neither of these examples involve KL or The Netherlands. ‘Europe’ is way too much of a generalization when it’s about Labour relations. There are huge differences between countries. It’s like grouping South-Asian countries together when talking about religion: makes no sense.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:16 pm

Jetty wrote:
...
You made the claim about KL as well, not only is there no direct evidence, there is no evidence at all.


With in the context of current topic, lets revisit edealinfo's reasonable expectations (vs) my baseless predictions. Lets wait and see if my predictions are wrong. Easy to validate, correct?
All posts are just opinions.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Jetty wrote:
...
You made the claim about KL as well, not only is there no direct evidence, there is no evidence at all.


With in the context of current topic, lets revisit edealinfo's reasonable expectations (vs) my baseless predictions. Lets wait and see if my predictions are wrong. Easy to validate, correct?

Not that easy because the air service agreement between India and The Netherlands makes that India has to approve the destinations KL flies to. If no new destinations are opened we don't know if that's because lack of ambition by KL or lack of approval by the Indian government.

Air service agreement
If, at any time, scheduled flights on any of the specified air services of one Contracting Party are operated so as to terminate in the territory of the other Contracting Party and not as part of a through air service extending beyond such territory, the latter party shall have the right to nominate the terminal point of such scheduled flights on the specified air route in its territory. The latter Party shall give not less than six months notice to the other Party if it decides to nominate a new terminal point for such scheduled flights.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:31 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Good move by KL. Basically they got either the plane for free (slots easily worth $28M) or got the slots for free.

Why would 28.000.000 USD be a great price for two slots? Looks like an insane amount of money to me. Anyway, slots at Schiphol, all 500,000 of them, are not for sale. They are allocated to the airlines by an independent non-profit organization, Airport Coordination Netherlands (ACNL).
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:52 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Good move by KL. Basically they got either the plane for free (slots easily worth $28M) or got the slots for free.

Why would 28.000.000 USD be a great price for two slots? Looks like an insane amount of money to me. Anyway, slots at Schiphol, all 500,000 of them, are not for sale. They are allocated to the airlines by an independent non-profit organization, Airport Coordination Netherlands (ACNL).

To put it better into perspective: 3 daily slotpairs (there’s no reliable source for this number but 3 slotpairs seems more likely than 2 slots given the flights 9W operated) out of the 680 available, with favorable timings.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:07 pm

Jetty wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Jetty wrote:
...
You made the claim about KL as well, not only is there no direct evidence, there is no evidence at all.


With in the context of current topic, lets revisit edealinfo's reasonable expectations (vs) my baseless predictions. Lets wait and see if my predictions are wrong. Easy to validate, correct?

Not that easy because the air service agreement between India and The Netherlands makes that India has to approve the destinations KL flies to. If no new destinations are opened we don't know if that's because lack of ambition by KL or lack of approval by the Indian government.

Air service agreement
If, at any time, scheduled flights on any of the specified air services of one Contracting Party are operated so as to terminate in the territory of the other Contracting Party and not as part of a through air service extending beyond such territory, the latter party shall have the right to nominate the terminal point of such scheduled flights on the specified air route in its territory. The latter Party shall give not less than six months notice to the other Party if it decides to nominate a new terminal point for such scheduled flights.


Over years I have seen the never ending list of excuses. WB is too big and expensive to operate(A rundown MD,seriously), low yield destinations, price sensitive passengers, not enough premium traffic, not enough BASAs AMS slot issues and ME3 is stealing our traffic(I am one the biggest supporters of US3 in their fight against ME3)

Technology has improved, A321XLR will enter service soon, Open Skies can be signed with India, ME3 are no longer strongest, their quotas are curtailed, if internal cost-structure is good premium traffic will not be a factor. That leaves with only one unspoken reason.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Jetty wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

With in the context of current topic, lets revisit edealinfo's reasonable expectations (vs) my baseless predictions. Lets wait and see if my predictions are wrong. Easy to validate, correct?

Not that easy because the air service agreement between India and The Netherlands makes that India has to approve the destinations KL flies to. If no new destinations are opened we don't know if that's because lack of ambition by KL or lack of approval by the Indian government.

Air service agreement
If, at any time, scheduled flights on any of the specified air services of one Contracting Party are operated so as to terminate in the territory of the other Contracting Party and not as part of a through air service extending beyond such territory, the latter party shall have the right to nominate the terminal point of such scheduled flights on the specified air route in its territory. The latter Party shall give not less than six months notice to the other Party if it decides to nominate a new terminal point for such scheduled flights.


Over years I have seen the never ending list of excuses. WB is too big and expensive to operate(A rundown MD,seriously), low yield destinations, price sensitive passengers, not enough premium traffic, not enough BASAs AMS slot issues and ME3 is stealing our traffic(I am one the biggest supporters of US3 in their fight against ME3)

Technology has improved, A321XLR will enter service soon, Open Skies can be signed with India, ME3 are no longer strongest, their quotas are curtailed, if internal cost-structure is good premium traffic will not be a factor. That leaves with only one unspoken reason.

I don’t know what the breakpoint was but open skies negotiations with India failed. Thus it isn’t as easy as signing at the dot, and India still gets to say where KL flies.

KL flies to quite some exotic locations from AMS and is the only European legacy carrier at many of them. You can be right that many European legacy carriers are conservative when choosing where to fly, but KL isn’t one of them: an airline can’t operate most international flights out of a single airport when being conservative. Windhoek, Kilimanjaro, Edmonton, Liberia, Cartagena, Guayaquil, Xiamen and Denpasar i.e.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Jetty wrote:
I don’t know what the breakpoint was but open skies negotiations with India failed. Thus it isn’t as easy as signing at the dot, and India still gets to say where KL flies.
...


And yet, magically the 7 weekly per station restriction was removed. That means all 28 weekly can be operated to BOM or DEL. That means there is a chance BLR will get the shaft as soon as BOM/DEL slots are available.

Fun fact: 1929 KLM Amsterdam-Batavia route covered same number(3) of Indian airports.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
And yet, magically the 7 weekly per station restriction was removed. That means all 28 weekly can be operated to BOM or DEL. That means there is a chance BLR will get the shaft as soon as BOM/DEL slots are available.
.


interesting, although I am guessing, that at worst, they will maintain their 3X to BLR
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:05 pm

edealinfo wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
And yet, magically the 7 weekly per station restriction was removed. That means all 28 weekly can be operated to BOM or DEL. That means there is a chance BLR will get the shaft as soon as BOM/DEL slots are available.
.


interesting, although I am guessing, that at worst, they will maintain their 3X to BLR


Just a hypothesis, don't want BLR crowd jump on me. The EU legacy mantra is exotic station consolidation, all actions indirectly point towards that and management don't want to the new exotic station issue add to the grievance list and lead to peak season industrial action.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
And yet, magically the 7 weekly per station restriction was removed. That means all 28 weekly can be operated to BOM or DEL. That means there is a chance BLR will get the shaft as soon as BOM/DEL slots are available.
.


interesting, although I am guessing, that at worst, they will maintain their 3X to BLR


Just a hypothesis, don't want BLR crowd jump on me. The EU legacy mantra is exotic station consolidation, all actions indirectly point towards that and management don't want to the new exotic station issue add to the grievance list and lead to peak season industrial action.


You would have to elaborate. I am guessing that you mean BLR falls into an "exotic" location, which I disagree [heck, it is no West African or other country]. If BLR capacity is maintained, or even expanded, how could it possibly add to the grievance, especially when Air France also operates 7X to this same station? Further, I still can't comprehend how MAA or even HYD would fall under a exotic classification. Unless, of course, you are implying that the political disturbances, which are perpetual, automatically push Indian destinations to the exotic flavor as they scare European staff.

Also, is an exotic country also defined if an insecticide has to be sprayed before every landing and take off at that destination. It occurred during a flight from France to India, and has happened, for as long as I remember, on all flights from Europe to India.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:44 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I am guessing that you mean BLR falls into an "exotic" location,


The senior unionized crew decides what is an exotic location, basically do they want to spend a night in that city, based on perceived safety, night life ... Your definition may not be the same. Junior/contract/part time crew may be willing to bid on the route, being mainline international route senior crew won't let go that privilege to bid.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:45 pm

I assume KLM will use slots for the highest profit. There is much focus here on one market, but a market that was over served depressing yields. I expect fewer seats to India in the short term.

Right now Africa seems to be the profit center.

A 777-300ER must be missing paper to go for so little. Even as stock for a 777ERSF it should be worth more. Oh well, parts is parts...

Lightsaber
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CHRISBA35X
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I assume KLM will use slots for the highest profit. There is much focus here on one market, but a market that was over served depressing yields. I expect fewer seats to India in the short term.

Right now Africa seems to be the profit center.

A 777-300ER must be missing paper to go for so little. Even as stock for a 777ERSF it should be worth more. Oh well, parts is parts...

Lightsaber


Maybe as a parts donor and the shell as a training frame on the ground perhaps?
 
76er
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

The senior unionized crew decides what is an exotic location, basically do they want to spend a night in that city, based on perceived safety, night life ... Your definition may not be the same. Junior/contract/part time crew may be willing to bid on the route, being mainline international route senior crew won't let go that privilege to bid.


What an incredible amount of nonsense. I am a 25+ year member of Dutch ALPA and have NEVER heard of this. And roster bidding at KL does not work that way, the system is totally different from the seniority based US-system for example. My wife is quite a senior FA at KL and flies to wonderful places like LOS often enough. Sure, when there are genuine security concerns at a certain destination the 3 flight- and cabin crew unions will raise their voice if needed and together with the company they will work something out. This applies mainly to the African continent where there are plenty of places where crew are not allowed to leave the hotel.
Simply put: KL will send their planes where they can generate the highest profits.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:25 am

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Definitely not. AMS is as big as it is because it has most international flight movements out of any airport. There are tons of possibilities to upgrade capacity without needing an A380. Less than a dozen destinations have a 77W or bigger daily.

To expand, KLM's business model is high utilization. Their aircraft sit less than competing airlines. Thus KLM sacrifices some yield to boost aircraft utilization. To do that with any airframe requires 7+ destinations. KLM could only justify 3 or 4 destinations with the A380.

AMS needs upgauging of narrowbody aircraft, not widebodies.


As always, thank you for the clear and logical explanations and views.


I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots at a capacity constrained airport, when do they look at their network and start sacrificing some destinations that are less profitable than others? I don't have the figures (and take potential subsidies out of the equation for now) but can routes to NWI and CWL be the best use of slots when they are paying what they are paying for a pair? If we compare to say BA, which is much further advanced in this timeline of maximising yield in a capacity constrained airport (LHR), then it is obvious to any traveller that short haul feed has been sacrificed for more profitable long haul. After all, you have a slot, do you want to use it with another 319 to CDG or a maxed out 380 to JNB, even if that is widening transit times?

As enthusiasts a.net we are always a bit biased that up-gauging must mean bigger WBs, but as Lightsabre says, getting more pax through could just mean getting more bodies onto the NB fleet, and adding its capacity by up-gauging the NB fleet, and rescheduling into destinations where there is a greater market.
 
factsonly
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:09 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:

I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots .............


Sorry, NO airline pays for slots at AMS, so your point is mute. Slots at AMS are not-traded, but slots may be swapped between codeshare partners.

KLM regularly suspends routes (SOU, LPL, CGN) when they do not contribute sufficiently to the network, while KLM cuts frequencies (BRU from 5x to 4x daily) to make slots available for new network initiatives.

The opening article that triggered this discussion is misleading.
The whole story boils down to KL paying USD13 Million for an ex-9W B77W (9W most have owed KLM for tickets and services) .
 
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:13 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
To expand, KLM's business model is high utilization. Their aircraft sit less than competing airlines. Thus KLM sacrifices some yield to boost aircraft utilization. To do that with any airframe requires 7+ destinations. KLM could only justify 3 or 4 destinations with the A380.

AMS needs upgauging of narrowbody aircraft, not widebodies.


As always, thank you for the clear and logical explanations and views.


I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots at a capacity constrained airport, when do they look at their network and start sacrificing some destinations that are less profitable than others? I don't have the figures (and take potential subsidies out of the equation for now) but can routes to NWI and CWL be the best use of slots when they are paying what they are paying for a pair? If we compare to say BA, which is much further advanced in this timeline of maximising yield in a capacity constrained airport (LHR), then it is obvious to any traveller that short haul feed has been sacrificed for more profitable long haul. After all, you have a slot, do you want to use it with another 319 to CDG or a maxed out 380 to JNB, even if that is widening transit times?

As enthusiasts a.net we are always a bit biased that up-gauging must mean bigger WBs, but as Lightsabre says, getting more pax through could just mean getting more bodies onto the NB fleet, and adding its capacity by up-gauging the NB fleet, and rescheduling into destinations where there is a greater market.

Why the A380? Upgauge multiple A319s to 787 is sufficient for growth. KLM should probably downgauge 77W and add frequency. Otherwise, I agree.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:32 pm

factsonly wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:

I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots .............


Sorry, NO airline pays for slots at AMS, so your point is mute. Slots at AMS are not-traded, but slots may be swapped between codeshare partners.

KLM regularly suspends routes (SOU, LPL, CGN) when they do not contribute sufficiently to the network, while KLM cuts frequencies (BRU from 5x to 4x daily) to make slots available for new network initiatives.

The opening article that triggered this discussion is misleading.
The whole story boils down to KL paying USD13 Million for an ex-9W B77W (9W most have owed KLM for tickets and services) .


How did you get the cost of the plane down to $13 M . If so, that would be one heck of a deal for a 12 year 77W with engines. For heaven’s sake, that plane was flying until it was seized for non payment of a debt.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:50 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
say BA, which is much further advanced in this timeline of maximising yield in a capacity constrained airport (LHR), then it is obvious to any traveller that short haul feed has been sacrificed for more profitable long haul. After all, you have a slot, do you want to use it with another 319 to CDG or a maxed out 380 to JNB, even if that is widening transit times?

The main difference between BA and KL is that BA serves a much larger home market than KLM. The Dutch are depending on short haul feeder flghts to fill their long haul planes.
 
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PW100
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:54 pm

factsonly wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:

I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots .............


Sorry, NO airline pays for slots at AMS, so your point is mute. Slots at AMS are not-traded, but slots may be swapped between codeshare partners.

KLM regularly suspends routes (SOU, LPL, CGN) when they do not contribute sufficiently to the network, while KLM cuts frequencies (BRU from 5x to 4x daily) to make slots available for new network initiatives.

The opening article that triggered this discussion is misleading.
The whole story boils down to KL paying USD13 Million for an ex-9W B77W (9W most have owed KLM for tickets and services) .

If that 77W has been sitting outside for over year, mostly unattended, it will not be worth much.

While slots are not traded at AMS, you sort of make the point yourself.
Any airline is free at AMS to use the slots in their own "pool" as they seem fit. What KLM seems to be doing is taking over (part of) the entity that used the Jet slots as AMS, and absorbing these assets into the KLM group. These assests include the slot rights that were controlled by that entity.

KLM may have to use those specific slots for the purpose of India flights (but perhaps not, as you suggested that KLM can cut BRU frequencies and make them available elsewhere in the network).
In any case, KLM can use those slots for India flights, and distribute their original own India slots elsewhere in their network.

This is purely a slot thing, the 77W is window dressing . . .
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eurotrader85
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:47 am

lightsaber wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

As always, thank you for the clear and logical explanations and views.


I guess building on those points is if KLM are paying what they are for a pair of slots at a capacity constrained airport, when do they look at their network and start sacrificing some destinations that are less profitable than others? I don't have the figures (and take potential subsidies out of the equation for now) but can routes to NWI and CWL be the best use of slots when they are paying what they are paying for a pair? If we compare to say BA, which is much further advanced in this timeline of maximising yield in a capacity constrained airport (LHR), then it is obvious to any traveller that short haul feed has been sacrificed for more profitable long haul. After all, you have a slot, do you want to use it with another 319 to CDG or a maxed out 380 to JNB, even if that is widening transit times?

As enthusiasts a.net we are always a bit biased that up-gauging must mean bigger WBs, but as Lightsabre says, getting more pax through could just mean getting more bodies onto the NB fleet, and adding its capacity by up-gauging the NB fleet, and rescheduling into destinations where there is a greater market.

Why the A380? Upgauge multiple A319s to 787 is sufficient for growth. KLM should probably downgauge 77W and add frequency. Otherwise, I agree.

Lightsaber

A380 was only a reference to BA at LHR to make the slot utilisation point. Not suggesting KLM should invest in 380s. The 380s for BA to South Africa work well, all be it its a specific niche route when the VLA comes into its own. Targeted takeoff times, large market etc (although sometimes a 787 has been added to the schedule in the past to help freight).
 
IWMBH
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri May 15, 2020 6:02 pm

The deal seems to be canceled due to the Corona virus.

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... -niet-door (source in Dutch and behind paywall).
 
WorldFlier
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Re: KLM buys a used 777-300 ER and 2 AMS slots for $23M

Fri May 15, 2020 6:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
It sounds good value though we don't know the current state of the plane and its maintenance records so KLM may need to spend a bit to get the plane flying again as well as the obvious costs of fitting it out according to KLM's requirements.

The market for used 77Ws is pretty depressed so it is a buyer's market. Lessors are getting a lot of 77Ws back from airlines such as EK and EY and Boeing was selling a number of end-of-line slots on newbuilds at deep discounts.

viewtopic.php?t=1422705 from eight months ago suggests 77Ws going at $55.0 – 155.0M so it's more than depressed if $28M gets you a 77W and two slots.

Since this is all in the context of the Jet Airways bankruptcy, it seems it is a sale of distressed properties, not one at market value.


This valuation of a 77W *and* 2 SLOTS should terrify creditors who have secured Airline debt secured by the air planes themselves...(cough American Airlines' creditors cough). Also why would anyone buy a new airplane from Boeing or Airbus (or Comac for that matter) if you can pick up the pieces of airlines that fold.

Also: This *is* the market value now and for the foreseeable. It sounds like there are going to be lots of VIP aircraft being bought by dozen to hundred-millionaires soon!

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