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Pi7472000
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:08 am

Great news!! I fly out of Miami a lot and Delta service is much better than American! Would love to see Delta turn MIA into a hub! Miami travelers need a better choice than American! Great to see more choices!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:14 am

FSDan wrote:
I thought you were pro competition?

LATAM has a daily northbound redeye arrival in the 9-10am range from FOR/REC on a 763, so those noon departures to TPA and MCO aren't for nothing. The earlier redeye arrivals from SCL, GRU, etc. connect better with the earlier TPA/MCO flights.


Nice try. I'm not taking the bait.

Are you looking at the schedules and reading my post? FOR is another 3 hour layover/no connection itinerary as the next flights (to MCO/TPA only) are at noon, and REC is a 2 hour layover/no connection (one of the few that makes sense, but to MCO/TPA only). Most of the northbound redeyes have long layovers or don't connect at all. Also the same story with the daytime GRU, as only RDU connects in a reasonable timeframe. If this is about connections, something needs to change with timing. As it stands, it's mostly O&D from MIA to battle AA.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:31 am

I have taken most TPA-DL direct flights (LAX, SLC, ATL, DTW, MSP, LGA, JFK). Looking forward to SEA soon. Need to hit up AMS but this summer is HND via DTW for the Olympics.

I take WN to FLL as OD from time to time. Would much rather take Delta.

I have also taken AA on what was suppose to be TPA-MIA-SCL-BRC via LATAM. AA cancelled their only leg due to the typical afternoon, 30 minute thunderstorm in the summer we experience here. Which created probably the most complicated reroute I have ever had in 450k miles of flying. In my 100 flights out of TPA on DL, those afternoon showers never cancelled a flight.

I for one am thrilled DL is starting this and I think/hope it will succeed.

I may have been told wrong, but a friend of a friend of mine who works for DL in SkyMiles told her that after their hub cities, TPA has the most amount of Platinum members. I believe it seeing my lowly Silver upgrade spot in line for every flight.

Throw in the fact that TSA in TPA on the DL side has never taken me more than 5 minutes before precheck (and rarely not just straight first in line since precheck) and I would gladly use TPAMIA as a shuttle instead of driving the 4.5 hours it takes.

Keep expanding TPA Delta. Nothing beats the best airport in the country paired with the best airline in the country.
Last edited by SuseJ772 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:36 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Looks like the battle is beginning. I think AA will defend their turf harder than they have been at JFK and BOS and it'll be a lot more difficult for DL. DL is well run but they aren't perfect and have made many forays only to retreat

It is a lot different with LATAM though. They have to do something, those flights need feed, and it will in turn feed the new adds

I'm not sure we'll see anywhere near a full focus city or hub. I suspect some stuff will shift to ATL and what can survive based off MIA O/D will stay.

Should be interesting! AA seems to have been fighting back at DL more lately. They need to, they've been showing a lot of weakness the past few years


One thing DL has done well over the last 15-20 years since they de-hubbed the former DL Express Markets (FLL / TPA / MCO) and retain retain loyalty and traffic. MIA might as well be in that boat as well. Is it possible we can see further expansion in former DL Express markets from MIA feeding LATAM including say PHL / EWR / BWI / BNA etc. or is this just very targeted expansion within FL?
 
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:37 am

KMCOFlyer wrote:
The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.

>>THIS<< And IMO, also applies to TPA. Flying these distances doesn't seem to warrant a flight. Feeding LATAM flights is a CONSIDERATION, yes, but overkill IMO.
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FlyingSicilian
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:37 am

DL should bring out the big testes and fly several more MIA-AUS, DFW, and IAH ;-)
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:43 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.

>>THIS<< And IMO, also applies to TPA. Flying these distances doesn't seem to warrant a flight. Feeding LATAM flights is a CONSIDERATION, yes, but overkill IMO.

I know little about South American markets but doesn't it make sense for someone traveling across the world (north south) to want to connect MIA-MCO instead of drive? I doubt MIA-MCO is meant for Floridians...
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:44 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.

>>THIS<< And IMO, also applies to TPA. Flying these distances doesn't seem to warrant a flight. Feeding LATAM flights is a CONSIDERATION, yes, but overkill IMO.


MIA-MCO on DL within the last few years was also feeding the MCO-GRU flight as well. At 1x daily, I doubt it did much to connect local traffic to compare it to what UA did in the late 1990s feeding MCO-MIA flight on 735s and 727s as a distant #2 to AA at MIA.
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:59 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Are you looking at the schedules and reading my post? FOR is another 3 hour layover/no connection itinerary as the next flights (to MCO/TPA only) are at noon, and REC is a 2 hour layover/no connection (one of the few that makes sense, but to MCO/TPA only). Most of the northbound redeyes have long layovers or don't connect at all. Also the same story with the daytime GRU, as only RDU connects in a reasonable timeframe. If this is about connections, something needs to change with timing. As it stands, it's mostly O&D from MIA to battle AA.


I guess I don't consider 3 hour layovers to be unreasonable when you have to go through customs/immigration, especially at a busy airport like MIA. I agree 4+ hours is suboptimal. So yes, FOR/REC to TPA/MCO is a 2-3 hour layover, which seems like a reasonable connection to me. The northbound redeyes from GRU and SCL at 6:20-25 am seem to connect well with the 8:35-45 TPA/MCO flights. The 7:05 LIM arrival is probably a little tight to connect to TPA/MCO but connects to HAV at 9:05 (not a terrible routing for someone holding a Visa) and RDU at 9:45. The 7:40 SCL arrival (not daily) and the 8:00 EZE arrival also connect to RDU. This is all focused on the new flights (plus HAV since I was interested), but it seems the northbound redeyes have plenty of reasonable connections to ATL, NYC, BOS, etc. too.

The worst timings I see in terms of connections for the new flights are the 3:20-25 MIA-TPA/MCO flights. The only nearby connecting flight I see that would feed those is the 12:27 arrival from HAV. The 11:27-28 arrivals on TPA/MCO-MIA also don't connect to much - just an AM MIA-MEX at 12:57.
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incitatus
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:06 am

MAH4546 wrote:

LATAM never flew to Dallas. Why would they start Atlanta? They won't.


That should not be a hard question. They never flew to Dallas because AA had Miami.

I am finding the lengths that DL is going to say that MIA adds are "small" funny. These are not small. And at this frequency they are geared to be viable for intra-FL local traffic. We might be watching DL's long desired South FL hub in its earliest stage.
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BTVB6Flyer
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:25 am

AA TPA-MIA is already up to 7x daily now, haven't checked the other routes yet.
 
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:28 am

N649DL wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.

>>THIS<< And IMO, also applies to TPA. Flying these distances doesn't seem to warrant a flight. Feeding LATAM flights is a CONSIDERATION, yes, but overkill IMO.


MIA-MCO on DL within the last few years was also feeding the MCO-GRU flight as well. At 1x daily, I doubt it did much to connect local traffic to compare it to what UA did in the late 1990s feeding MCO-MIA flight on 735s and 727s as a distant #2 to AA at MIA.


Yes but by 2022, Virgin Trains will be extended up to Orlando which I feel many locals will use as the alternate to driving instead of flying. I don’t believe that just the LATAM feed will make this work this time around.
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:32 am

MAH4546 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
No surprises here. MIA-ATL/DTW/MSP/LGA all each get bumped up by one daily flight, as well.

I suspect resuming LAX and adding SEA are next.


How about MIA-BOS? I would think it has to be somewhere within this strategy as well at some point. I think 2x daily 319s would serve the market well.

Jeremy


Delta flies MIABOS already, 2x daily (1x 320/1x 321).


Would you consider Boston an important market for AA to serve from Miami? Do you think both DL and AA and co-exist in the market long term?
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:01 am

B752OS wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

How about MIA-BOS? I would think it has to be somewhere within this strategy as well at some point. I think 2x daily 319s would serve the market well.

Jeremy


Delta flies MIABOS already, 2x daily (1x 320/1x 321).


Would you consider Boston an important market for AA to serve from Miami? Do you think both DL and AA and co-exist in the market long term?


Of course they will co-exist. And there is a third airline in that market, too, with Frontier.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:03 am

DL wasn't already flying MIA-RDU and MIA-SLC?!? Pretty shocking to me that places like BDL and CLE were served nonstop from RDU before MIA, whilst it is equally shocking that TPA is linked to SLC but not MIA...
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phatfarmlines
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:35 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
DL should bring out the big testes and fly several more MIA-AUS, DFW, and IAH ;-)


And MIA-Caribbean too while they're at it on A220s. The 1x weekly LA MIA-PUJ and AF MIA-PAP/PTP, along with the existing MIA-HAV will need some company.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:46 am

ATL already serves Latam as much as it could. It has a fraction of the demand of MIA to the region. DL already has all the feed in the world to ATL and they could support 1 flight a day to these major destinations. What makes people think Latam over GOL will suddenly allow them to do more than 1 flight a day from these Brazilian cities to ATL? Crazy talk.

DL needs to build up MIA to support this JV. And that's what it's doing here. It will need to add more flights to MIA. Maybe IND, BNA, MSY, SAV, JAX, CVG and CMH.
 
planecane
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:00 am

KMCOFlyer wrote:
Everyone is also forgetting that Virgin Trains will be extended from W Palm Beach up to Orlando by 2022 as well. The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,
the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.


Even then it isn't worth it. With having to travel to the airport, be there an hour plus before departure, fly to MCO, get a rental car or transportation it takes almost as long as if you just left your house and drove.

MIA/FLL to TPA is barely worth flying instead of driving.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:08 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
DL wasn't already flying MIA-RDU and MIA-SLC?!? Pretty shocking to me that places like BDL and CLE were served nonstop from RDU before MIA, whilst it is equally shocking that TPA is linked to SLC but not MIA...


Delta does fly MIA-RDU, but weekend-only.

Delta was flying MIA-SLC, but then jetBlue started FLL-SLC and the route was moved to FLL.
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n2dru
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:33 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
I may have been told wrong, but a friend of a friend of mine who works for DL in SkyMiles told her that after their hub cities, TPA has the most amount of Platinum members. I believe it seeing my lowly Silver upgrade spot in line for every flight.


Actually that title goes to JAX, but RDU and TPA are not too far behind.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:22 am

n2dru wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I may have been told wrong, but a friend of a friend of mine who works for DL in SkyMiles told her that after their hub cities, TPA has the most amount of Platinum members. I believe it seeing my lowly Silver upgrade spot in line for every flight.


Actually that title goes to JAX, but RDU and TPA are not too far behind.


You would think they could have built a bigger club at JAX. I refer to it as the Sky Closet.
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:44 am

I used to fly FLL-MCO every now and then when Delta had E135s from Freedom Airlines (which was owned by Mesa). They always had intra-Florida covered, even used those Mesaba Saabs from NWA for awhile for some routes.

TYWoolman wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
What flights will Latam have to Atlanta ? That's the news I want to know ? Most Latam traffic to MIA is O & D since Miami is the largest US destination from Latin America. News would be that Delta is flying A330's from MIA to GRU or EZE but that probably is not happening. This JV just seems to be that Latam is changing their US feeder from AA to Delta in Miami, Latam flying a traditional Delta route or Delta flying what would be a Latam route is the news I want. Could we get some of that from Santiago or Atlanta ?



I would think Latam will serve Atlanta eventually along side Delta flights. Why wouldn't the partnership take advantage and expound upon Latam's marketing, experience and know-how in drawing traffic into its system and onward into mainland U.S. via Atlanta? At the very least, the partnership calls for a least one symbolic Latam flight into Atlanta! Obviously they can put that passenger on a Delta flight (which maybe is Delta's plan) but I wonder if the South American traveler is more loyal to its hometown carrier!


LATAM probably will, if anything the token ATL-GRU since it can support an additional frequency to another connection bank. Just like VS ATL-LHR.
 
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:27 pm

tphuang wrote:

DL needs to build up MIA to support this JV. And that's what it's doing here. It will need to add more flights to MIA. Maybe IND, BNA, MSY, SAV, JAX, CVG and CMH.

I will profess doubt that few of those cities have any meaningful demand to the S America destinations of LATAM - and of course they are well connected to ATL.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:54 pm

n2dru wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I may have been told wrong, but a friend of a friend of mine who works for DL in SkyMiles told her that after their hub cities, TPA has the most amount of Platinum members. I believe it seeing my lowly Silver upgrade spot in line for every flight.


Actually that title goes to JAX, but RDU and TPA are not too far behind.


I have no reason to doubt that you know this as I am definitely not an insider or anything. But it surprises me a little in that JAX has 7 delta destinations and TPA has 14. Tampa is also a MSA population of 2.7 million and Jacksonville is 1.5 million. Also, the one time I have been to JAX the Delta side certainly didn’t “feel as booming” as TPA Concoruse E. I am sure you’re right, just surprises me, that’s all.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:03 pm

planecane wrote:
KMCOFlyer wrote:
Everyone is also forgetting that Virgin Trains will be extended from W Palm Beach up to Orlando by 2022 as well. The last few times DL tried MCO-MIA,
the loads were terrible and I doubt many local people seriously consider flying unless they can get NK level fares.

MIA/FLL to TPA is barely worth flying instead of driving.


It certainly makes it worth if you are trying to do up and back the same day - which all my TPA/Miami-area flying has been.

Also, I can’t speak for MCO as I have only flown out of there on EK to DXB->MLE, but as for TPA, you really don’t need to be at the airport on the DL side an hour before. It’s not quite as good as the times I have flown private, but it is the closest to that I have experienced for commercial flights.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
KCaviator
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:10 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
So far this AA-DL tit-for-tat in BOS and MIA, Republic is the big winner! Lol.


So true!
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:04 pm

N649DL wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Didn't DL have MIA-MCO in the past using E-135's?


I know as late as 2011 they had Comair CRJ 200’s on the route.


Much later than that and with mainline. DL actually restarted MIA-MCO back in 2014-2015 on a daily M88 and cancelled it less than 2 years ago. Interesting how they're bringing it back now.

IIRC, MIA-SLC on DL was somewhat seasonal so *technically* they're not restarting that route. I could be thinking of FLL though. At the end of the day DL is always going to be strong in Florida but they've had several big fails out of Miami like LHR and LAX. I'm curious to see what they're doing here. Personally I'd love to see them build up MCO back into a hub again instead of going against AA in MIA.

flyCMH wrote:
Hoping Delta connects more large outstations to MIA as they continue to bolster operations there. IND and CMH in particular.


According to Wikipedia, MIA- CMH / IND / DCA are already operating as seasonal routes. It also says they serve HAV year round.

Off topic, but does anybody know offhand why AA discontinued seasonal MIA-BUF service? It always seems like there's a lack of service outside of BOS to New England out of MIA.


Yeah AA and f9 actually had some VERY good seasonal MIA- BUF results in Buffalo. I am guessing the lack of aircraft available due to the MAX being out of service for AA was the reason. That is my uneducated guess.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:22 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Looks like the battle is beginning. I think AA will defend their turf harder than they have been at JFK and BOS and it'll be a lot more difficult for DL. DL is well run but they aren't perfect and have made many forays only to retreat

It is a lot different with LATAM though. They have to do something, those flights need feed, and it will in turn feed the new adds

I'm not sure we'll see anywhere near a full focus city or hub. I suspect some stuff will shift to ATL and what can survive based off MIA O/D will stay.

Should be interesting! AA seems to have been fighting back at DL more lately. They need to, they've been showing a lot of weakness the past few years


It will be interesting! I am not sold, though, on the idea that this is going to be a huge battle. I see all of these MIA domestic DL adds as an effort to make LATAM more attractive to Latin America point-of-sale customers, more attractive than either AA or other Latin American carriers. 1-stop (and some non-stop) service from most big South America markets to MCO and TPA makes LATAM more competitive with AA. I do not, however, see this as any real threat to AA corporate accounts in Miami. AA's network is just too large for big corporate clients to switch - especially those that combine Latin America with U.S. domestic travel.

As far as international ads go, part of this will depend on how the pilot talks go. They are going into mediation, and the biggest issue on the table is balancing the joint ventures. A big revenue stream for Delta from LATAM-operated long hauls connecting to regional jets is not going to fly with the pilots. I think we may see some new DL-operated long-hauls as a settlement for that disagreement.
 
LAOCA
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:18 pm

This looks much more like preparation for building MIA as a Latin American (LA) gateway in conjunction with LATAM, than any attempt in building a regional network to move folks around Florida. And you can bet that ATL will start seeing a lot more lift into LA as well.

There's been a recent, and major shift in pilot bases for DL that goes far beyond simply tuning the existing system. It signals a reallocation of wide body aircraft across the entire system. A lot of flying to LA is inefficient as far as airframe usage. That makes it more attractive to use thirsty, older airplanes like the 76 and 77. And those are two of the types with significant shifts.

The Delta/LATAM JV is much more complicated than others that tie the many hubs of the US airline to one or two of the other partner's. Here you have all of the DL hubs tying seven or so hubs in LA. And a big successful existing MIA operation that needs to be made use of. We will see a lot of changes over time, and unless you're part of planning the strategy, it's much harder to guess how it's going to wind up compared to previous JVs and alliances. And yes, as someone pointed out, some to be governed by the new pilot contract.
 
Capn
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
FSDan wrote:
I thought you were pro competition?

LATAM has a daily northbound redeye arrival in the 9-10am range from FOR/REC on a 763, so those noon departures to TPA and MCO aren't for nothing. The earlier redeye arrivals from SCL, GRU, etc. connect better with the earlier TPA/MCO flights.


Nice try. I'm not taking the bait.

Are you looking at the schedules and reading my post? FOR is another 3 hour layover/no connection itinerary as the next flights (to MCO/TPA only) are at noon, and REC is a 2 hour layover/no connection (one of the few that makes sense, but to MCO/TPA only). Most of the northbound redeyes have long layovers or don't connect at all. Also the same story with the daytime GRU, as only RDU connects in a reasonable timeframe. If this is about connections, something needs to change with timing. As it stands, it's mostly O&D from MIA to battle AA.



Don't overlook the fact that DL and LATAM can't coordinate schedules until they receive immunity.
I think you will see a much more comprehensive schedule at that time.
I think these recent adds are just to get things rolling.
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:49 pm

There's connecting opportunities in MCO as well. I can book DTW-MCO-LIM as an example.
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KMCOFlyer
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:20 pm

flymco753 wrote:
There's connecting opportunities in MCO as well. I can book DTW-MCO-LIM as an example.


I wonder if we could see MCO-CDG added in 2021? With Terminal C opening up early next year, there will be more space in Airside 4 as I assume BA, EK, LH, DY, and maybe AC will be moving over. This would leave Airside 4 with more room for DL and their partners to expand.
 
incitatus
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:00 pm

tphuang wrote:
ATL already serves Latam as much as it could. It has a fraction of the demand of MIA to the region. DL already has all the feed in the world to ATL and they could support 1 flight a day to these major destinations. What makes people think Latam over GOL will suddenly allow them to do more than 1 flight a day from these Brazilian cities to ATL? Crazy talk.

DL needs to build up MIA to support this JV. And that's what it's doing here. It will need to add more flights to MIA. Maybe IND, BNA, MSY, SAV, JAX, CVG and CMH.


The point of LATAM serving ATL would not be the ATL market. From the customer perspective these joint ventures aren't always like a merger. For many, a preference for one of the airlines remains. By flying to ATL, LATAM can cater to those passengers that prefer to be on their aircraft (as opposed to Delta) in the long-haul, and connect them to 100+ destinations.
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Brickell305
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:05 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Looks like the battle is beginning. I think AA will defend their turf harder than they have been at JFK and BOS and it'll be a lot more difficult for DL. DL is well run but they aren't perfect and have made many forays only to retreat

It is a lot different with LATAM though. They have to do something, those flights need feed, and it will in turn feed the new adds

I'm not sure we'll see anywhere near a full focus city or hub. I suspect some stuff will shift to ATL and what can survive based off MIA O/D will stay.

Should be interesting! AA seems to have been fighting back at DL more lately. They need to, they've been showing a lot of weakness the past few years
LATAM isn’t shifting one damn thing from MIA to ATL. That would be the equivalent of BA deciding to shift its LHR-JFK flights to DFW.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:05 pm

incitatus wrote:
tphuang wrote:
ATL already serves Latam as much as it could. It has a fraction of the demand of MIA to the region. DL already has all the feed in the world to ATL and they could support 1 flight a day to these major destinations. What makes people think Latam over GOL will suddenly allow them to do more than 1 flight a day from these Brazilian cities to ATL? Crazy talk.

DL needs to build up MIA to support this JV. And that's what it's doing here. It will need to add more flights to MIA. Maybe IND, BNA, MSY, SAV, JAX, CVG and CMH.


The point of LATAM serving ATL would not be the ATL market. From the customer perspective these joint ventures aren't always like a merger. For many, a preference for one of the airlines remains. By flying to ATL, LATAM can cater to those passengers that prefer to be on their aircraft (as opposed to Delta) in the long-haul, and connect them to 100+ destinations.

In the end of the day, demand matters. ATL already services all the major airports in latam region. So the only additions would be if they shifted those Mia to secondary Brazilian markets flights to ATL. That would seem to be a terrible idea. Also, right now latam does get feed from aa on many of it's flights to Mia that might not do as well with no connection. How does latam compete with aa in these markets if DL doesn't provide it some connections?
 
incitatus
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:40 pm

tphuang wrote:
In the end of the day, demand matters. ATL already services all the major airports in latam region. So the only additions would be if they shifted those Mia to secondary Brazilian markets flights to ATL. That would seem to be a terrible idea. Also, right now latam does get feed from aa on many of it's flights to Mia that might not do as well with no connection. How does latam compete with aa in these markets if DL doesn't provide it some connections?


Fact is that unless DL adds a hub at MIA, LATAM will not have the same feed at MIA that it used to have. There will be fewer connecting services through MIA, so there will be fewer connecting passengers at MIA.

And again, the power of ATL is not the local traffic, it is the ability to connect passengers. Someone already mentioned that LATAM could hit difference flight banks than DL Latin service hits, creating services that do not exist today.

The secondary markets in Brazil survive on Miami and Disney traffic. There is just not enough of any other traffic in those markets to make them function from ATL. DL already knows that because it tried ATL-MAO/FOR/REC/BSB and those were disasters.
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tphuang
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:46 pm

incitatus wrote:
tphuang wrote:
In the end of the day, demand matters. ATL already services all the major airports in latam region. So the only additions would be if they shifted those Mia to secondary Brazilian markets flights to ATL. That would seem to be a terrible idea. Also, right now latam does get feed from aa on many of it's flights to Mia that might not do as well with no connection. How does latam compete with aa in these markets if DL doesn't provide it some connections?


Fact is that unless DL adds a hub at MIA, LATAM will not have the same feed at MIA that it used to have. There will be fewer connecting services through MIA, so there will be fewer connecting passengers at MIA.

And again, the power of ATL is not the local traffic, it is the ability to connect passengers. Someone already mentioned that LATAM could hit difference flight banks than DL Latin service hits, creating services that do not exist today.

The secondary markets in Brazil survive on Miami and Disney traffic. There is just not enough of any other traffic in those markets to make them function from ATL. DL already knows that because it tried ATL-MAO/FOR/REC/BSB and those were disasters.


But since ATL already serves these market, there really is no reason for LATAM to serve them also.

Let's say, you have GRU-MIA 2x on Latam. You move one of the flight to ATL to get better DL feeds. Now, you lose all the feed from GRU end that wants to go to MIA. And 2x at ATL will suffer because now the feeds are split between 2 flights. AA on GRU-MIA with GOL feed on the end will feast on connection traffic for middle of the country via ATL to MIA. In order to make this work, DL is going to have to start adding where it thinks have good demand to South America. And looks like it's already doing so.
 
ATLgaUSA
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:23 pm

Does RDU generate any meaningful numbers to Latin America?
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:22 pm

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:

I know as late as 2011 they had Comair CRJ 200’s on the route.


Much later than that and with mainline. DL actually restarted MIA-MCO back in 2014-2015 on a daily M88 and cancelled it less than 2 years ago. Interesting how they're bringing it back now.

IIRC, MIA-SLC on DL was somewhat seasonal so *technically* they're not restarting that route. I could be thinking of FLL though. At the end of the day DL is always going to be strong in Florida but they've had several big fails out of Miami like LHR and LAX. I'm curious to see what they're doing here. Personally I'd love to see them build up MCO back into a hub again instead of going against AA in MIA.

flyCMH wrote:
Hoping Delta connects more large outstations to MIA as they continue to bolster operations there. IND and CMH in particular.


According to Wikipedia, MIA- CMH / IND / DCA are already operating as seasonal routes. It also says they serve HAV year round.

Off topic, but does anybody know offhand why AA discontinued seasonal MIA-BUF service? It always seems like there's a lack of service outside of BOS to New England out of MIA.


Yeah AA and f9 actually had some VERY good seasonal MIA- BUF results in Buffalo. I am guessing the lack of aircraft available due to the MAX being out of service for AA was the reason. That is my uneducated guess.


Actually I think AA on MIA-BUF was on an Eagle E175. At the most, perhaps briefly an A319. I don't know if the MAX ban would've trickled to a route like that.

As as RDU potential to Latin America goes, the furthest south even flown from there was AA to SXM or STT back in the 1990s on 757s when they had a hub there.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:34 pm

N649DL wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Much later than that and with mainline. DL actually restarted MIA-MCO back in 2014-2015 on a daily M88 and cancelled it less than 2 years ago. Interesting how they're bringing it back now.

IIRC, MIA-SLC on DL was somewhat seasonal so *technically* they're not restarting that route. I could be thinking of FLL though. At the end of the day DL is always going to be strong in Florida but they've had several big fails out of Miami like LHR and LAX. I'm curious to see what they're doing here. Personally I'd love to see them build up MCO back into a hub again instead of going against AA in MIA.



According to Wikipedia, MIA- CMH / IND / DCA are already operating as seasonal routes. It also says they serve HAV year round.

Off topic, but does anybody know offhand why AA discontinued seasonal MIA-BUF service? It always seems like there's a lack of service outside of BOS to New England out of MIA.


Yeah AA and f9 actually had some VERY good seasonal MIA- BUF results in Buffalo. I am guessing the lack of aircraft available due to the MAX being out of service for AA was the reason. That is my uneducated guess.


Actually I think AA on MIA-BUF was on an Eagle E175. At the most, perhaps briefly an A319. I don't know if the MAX ban would've trickled to a route like that.

As as RDU potential to Latin America goes, the furthest south even flown from there was AA to SXM or STT back in the 1990s on 757s when they had a hub there.


The Max ban would absolutely trickle down to a route like MIABUF. A seasonal holiday route that can easily flow via PHL and CLT is exactly what you cut first.
a.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:36 pm

incitatus wrote:
tphuang wrote:
In the end of the day, demand matters. ATL already services all the major airports in latam region. So the only additions would be if they shifted those Mia to secondary Brazilian markets flights to ATL. That would seem to be a terrible idea. Also, right now latam does get feed from aa on many of it's flights to Mia that might not do as well with no connection. How does latam compete with aa in these markets if DL doesn't provide it some connections?


Fact is that unless DL adds a hub at MIA, LATAM will not have the same feed at MIA that it used to have. There will be fewer connecting services through MIA, so there will be fewer connecting passengers at MIA.

And again, the power of ATL is not the local traffic, it is the ability to connect passengers. Someone already mentioned that LATAM could hit difference flight banks than DL Latin service hits, creating services that do not exist today.

The secondary markets in Brazil survive on Miami and Disney traffic. There is just not enough of any other traffic in those markets to make them function from ATL. DL already knows that because it tried ATL-MAO/FOR/REC/BSB and those were disasters.[/quote]

LATAM barely receives feed from AA at MIA. The feed is almost entirely from the other end. There are days where Lima will leave with less than dozen passengers connecting from elsewhere on the Miami side. GRU is the one that receives the most connections on the Miami end, usually 50+. The other routes rarely get more than two dozen.
a.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:06 pm

So we're kind of back to the future with DL at Miami. They could have just bought the remains of a MIA based Pan Am when they were partnered with it for about 3 weeks before PA's collapse and UA buying the Latin American Division and UA's short-lived MIA hub. I'll know DL is serious about MIA/LA when DL begins DCA/ORD/PHL/MSY/IAH/DFW/LAX/SFO/LAS. But for now, baby steps.
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phatfarmlines
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:35 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
So we're kind of back to the future with DL at Miami. They could have just bought the remains of a MIA based Pan Am when they were partnered with it for about 3 weeks before PA's collapse and UA buying the Latin American Division and UA's short-lived MIA hub. I'll know DL is serious about MIA/LA when DL begins DCA/ORD/PHL/MSY/IAH/DFW/LAX/SFO/LAS. But for now, baby steps.


DL having a signficant operation in MCO during that time likely factored into the decision to forgo MIA.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:01 am

KMCOFlyer wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
There's connecting opportunities in MCO as well. I can book DTW-MCO-LIM as an example.


I wonder if we could see MCO-CDG added in 2021? With Terminal C opening up early next year, there will be more space in Airside 4 as I assume BA, EK, LH, DY, and maybe AC will be moving over. This would leave Airside 4 with more room for DL and their partners to expand.
I wouldn't be surprised to see DL on both AMS & CDG. I hope Airside 4 becomes exclusively SkyTeam, DL ran the whole terminal back in the hey day.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:29 am

phatfarmlines wrote:

DL having a signficant operation in MCO during that time likely factored into the decision to forgo MIA.


Maybe, but MCO and MIA are two different markets almost entirely. DL didn't "buy" MIA when they had the chance but given AA's advantage even then, it would have been an uphill battle.
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TYWoolman
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:37 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
So we're kind of back to the future with DL at Miami. They could have just bought the remains of a MIA based Pan Am when they were partnered with it for about 3 weeks before PA's collapse and UA buying the Latin American Division and UA's short-lived MIA hub. I'll know DL is serious about MIA/LA when DL begins DCA/ORD/PHL/MSY/IAH/DFW/LAX/SFO/LAS. But for now, baby steps.


DL having a signficant operation in MCO during that time likely factored into the decision to forgo MIA.



I think it was more that after it was agreed upon that Delta would fund Pan Am, Delta pulled funding due to market conditions. Delta had more than enough digesting the European division and it was not going to get into a bidding war with United. But what a waste that United dismantled it all. Back to topic: With LATAM in Miami, Delta will be able to coexist with American and in time will grow the SkyMiles base there producing even more flights.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:59 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
So we're kind of back to the future with DL at Miami. They could have just bought the remains of a MIA based Pan Am when they were partnered with it for about 3 weeks before PA's collapse and UA buying the Latin American Division and UA's short-lived MIA hub. I'll know DL is serious about MIA/LA when DL begins DCA/ORD/PHL/MSY/IAH/DFW/LAX/SFO/LAS. But for now, baby steps.



Any new Delta route to an American or United hub will have to be on Delta's best: A220's and A321's. The A220 unique in that American nor United have it!
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:53 am

MAH4546 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

Yeah AA and f9 actually had some VERY good seasonal MIA- BUF results in Buffalo. I am guessing the lack of aircraft available due to the MAX being out of service for AA was the reason. That is my uneducated guess.


Actually I think AA on MIA-BUF was on an Eagle E175. At the most, perhaps briefly an A319. I don't know if the MAX ban would've trickled to a route like that.

As as RDU potential to Latin America goes, the furthest south even flown from there was AA to SXM or STT back in the 1990s on 757s when they had a hub there.


The Max ban would absolutely trickle down to a route like MIABUF. A seasonal holiday route that can easily flow via PHL and CLT is exactly what you cut first.


The Eagle 175 was correct ..... but I was thinking the same thing. The trickle down effect of not having the MAX. Other planes being used during the holidays makes a lot of sense. Hopefully AA brings it back next holiday season.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:22 am

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Actually I think AA on MIA-BUF was on an Eagle E175. At the most, perhaps briefly an A319. I don't know if the MAX ban would've trickled to a route like that.

As as RDU potential to Latin America goes, the furthest south even flown from there was AA to SXM or STT back in the 1990s on 757s when they had a hub there.


The Max ban would absolutely trickle down to a route like MIABUF. A seasonal holiday route that can easily flow via PHL and CLT is exactly what you cut first.


The Eagle 175 was correct ..... but I was thinking the same thing. The trickle down effect of not having the MAX. Other planes being used during the holidays makes a lot of sense. Hopefully AA brings it back next holiday season.


I believe AA on MIA-BUF ran past the holidays, likely into the spring. No surprise considering how much of a market US had up there.

As far as the DL ops at MIA goes after Pan Am, that got sold to UA and they operated out of Concourse F until the early 2000s. Then UA sold that operation during BK and DL more or less kept the same operation. It was clear after Pan Am went away and they gobbled up the JFK ops, they had no interest in MIA with FLL / MCO / ATL hubs up the road and AA silently building up the MIA hub. Recall back then DL was fully invested in the MCO hub with it being the official carrier of Disney World until the late 1990s.

DL essentially needs to work a bit backwards at this point at MIA (despite the LATAM codeshare). But I’m convinced they’re never developing MIA into a hub at all.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta Announces MIA-MCO/RDU/SLC/TPA

Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:42 am

IMO the real reason Delta did not pursue Pan Am Miami ops into S.A.was because Delta had to distance itself away in order to support its argument the operation was not investable. Pan Am was suing or anticipated to sue Delta at the time. Pulling funding and then cherry picking would have been a publicity/legal quagmire.

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