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Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:11 am

Widebody engine deliveries 2019

882 engines were delivered (not counting spares).

That’s the second highest total ever. (904 deliveries in 2015.)

GEnx 248
TXWB 224
T1000 96
GE90 90
T7000 82
CF6 46
PW4000 46
T900 32
T700 18

RR 452 (51.2%)
GE 384 (43.5%)
PW 46 (5.2%)

This is the second year running when RR have delivered more than 50% of all widebody engines.
 
olle
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:19 pm

With the Boeing domination of WB (70-30) over Airbus fast changing to a more 50-50 for passanger WB aircraft we will have a situation where Airbus is RR only and Boeing is split between GE and RR.
 
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:22 pm

What was delivered with PWs?
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
tomcat
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:13 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
What was delivered with PWs?


The KC-46.
 
Jefford717
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:55 pm

PM wrote:
Widebody engine deliveries 2019

882 engines were delivered (not counting spares).

That’s the second highest total ever. (904 deliveries in 2015.)

GEnx 248
TXWB 224
T1000 96
GE90 90
T7000 82
CF6 46
PW4000 46
T900 32
T700 18

RR 452 (51.2%)
GE 384 (43.5%)
PW 46 (5.2%)

This is the second year running when RR have delivered more than 50% of all widebody engines.


Very good numbers for RR until you look behind the numbers; they are getting destroyed by GE in the 787 program in pretty much every measurable aspect. T900 and A380 program will die in about a year. The TXWB is a fantastic engine however. Once the A320CEO are all delivered, they will be out of the NB game until the next gen NB not due to enter service until late 2020s or early 2030s. 737 Max and C919 are 100% CFM, Mitsubishi MRJ, e-2 and A220 are 100% PW and the A320neo can be had with CFM or PW.
 
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:44 pm

tomcat wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
What was delivered with PWs?


The KC-46.


Ah, yes, forgot about that plane. Was thinking commercial only.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:21 pm

PM wrote:
Widebody engine deliveries 2019

882 engines were delivered (not counting spares).

That’s the second highest total ever. (904 deliveries in 2015.)

GEnx 248
TXWB 224
T1000 96
GE90 90
T7000 82
CF6 46
PW4000 46
T900 32
T700 18

RR 452 (51.2%)
GE 384 (43.5%)
PW 46 (5.2%)

This is the second year running when RR have delivered more than 50% of all widebody engines.


Interesting numbers indeed. The way some speak here, would lead one to think GE's the only game in town.
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smartplane
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:25 pm

PM wrote:
Widebody engine deliveries 2019

882 engines were delivered (not counting spares).

That’s the second highest total ever. (904 deliveries in 2015.)

GEnx 248
TXWB 224
T1000 96
GE90 90
T7000 82
CF6 46
PW4000 46
T900 32
T700 18

RR 452 (51.2%)
GE 384 (43.5%)
PW 46 (5.2%)

This is the second year running when RR have delivered more than 50% of all widebody engines.

Based on published aircraft deliveries, ascertaining engines installed, and some multiplication? A fair amount of effort involved, so good work, and many thanks.

When spares are added, even more pronounced in favour of RR, though as most engines are on PBTH or warranty, not necessarily profitable manufacture and supply.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:30 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
PM wrote:
Widebody engine deliveries 2019

882 engines were delivered (not counting spares).

That’s the second highest total ever. (904 deliveries in 2015.)

GEnx 248
TXWB 224
T1000 96
GE90 90
T7000 82
CF6 46
PW4000 46
T900 32
T700 18

RR 452 (51.2%)
GE 384 (43.5%)
PW 46 (5.2%)

This is the second year running when RR have delivered more than 50% of all widebody engines.


Very good numbers for RR until you look behind the numbers; they are getting destroyed by GE in the 787 program in pretty much every measurable aspect. T900 and A380 program will die in about a year. The TXWB is a fantastic engine however. Once the A320CEO are all delivered, they will be out of the NB game until the next gen NB not due to enter service until late 2020s or early 2030s. 737 Max and C919 are 100% CFM, Mitsubishi MRJ, e-2 and A220 are 100% PW and the A320neo can be had with CFM or PW.


Yes, unfortunate with the T1000 issues. They have had setbacks as well on fixes. Total fix not expected until 2021/2022 and has cost them quite a bit of money, nevermind the reputational damage.

However, their XWB and T7000 seem to be doing ok. And LH chose the T1000 for their 787-9s ordered last year. Remains to be seen if EK do the same with theirs.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:38 pm

Great accomplishment for RR, congratulations.

A few questions though. Are these numbers skewed by deliveries of redesigned T1000 engines (in other word, engines that were already paid for), and also, isn't RR taking a huge financial hit because of the ongoing T1000 problems?
 
Scotron12
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:38 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Great accomplishment for RR, congratulations.

A few questions though. Are these numbers skewed by deliveries of redesigned T1000 engines (in other word, engines that were already paid for), and also, isn't RR taking a huge financial hit because of the ongoing T1000 problems?


Huge hit...£2.3B estimated total!!
 
SteelChair
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Great accomplishment for RR, congratulations.

A few questions though. Are these numbers skewed by deliveries of redesigned T1000 engines (in other word, engines that were already paid for), and also, isn't RR taking a huge financial hit because of the ongoing T1000 problems?


Huge hit...£2.3B estimated total!!


I guess RR are thinking that 1) they had to "make it good" to remain a long term player, and 2) they will make some of that money back in aftermarket support by keeping the engine going.

But there is no doubt that the T1000 engine problems have proven very timely for GE at a time when GE really needed help.
 
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:21 am

olle wrote:
With the Boeing domination of WB (70-30) over Airbus fast changing to a more 50-50 for passenger WB aircraft …


Actually, it has been more like 60-40 for the past three years.

Jefford717 wrote:


Very good numbers for RR until you look behind the numbers; they are getting destroyed by GE in the 787 program in pretty much every measurable aspect.


I wouldn’t go that far. Of the first 1,000 787s, RR are (or will be) on 371 of them. A 37% market share isn’t nothing. With spares, that’s a good 800 engines.

And in the leasing market, GE and RR are neck and neck.

Jefford717 wrote:


Once the A320CEO are all delivered, they will be out of the NB game …


They’ve been out of that market for some time.


smartplane wrote:

Based on published aircraft deliveries, ascertaining engines installed, and some multiplication?


Yes. The information is all easily available. You just need to add it all up.

smartplane wrote:


When spares are added, even more pronounced in favour of RR.


Probably. In 2018, RR delivered 434 engines on new build widebodies. But when they published their annual results, it turned out that had actually delivered 500+ engines (including spares). We have to assume there were north of 500 in 2019 too.

SteelChair wrote:
Great accomplishment for RR, congratulations.

A few questions though. Are these numbers skewed by deliveries of redesigned T1000 engines (in other word, engines that were already paid for)?


No. If RR delivered new T1000s to replace faulty ones or took in an engine for repair and “re-delivered” it, these won’t appear in the numbers above. These are purely engines delivered with (on) new build widebodies.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:43 pm

Scotron12 wrote:

Yes, unfortunate with the T1000 issues. They have had setbacks as well on fixes. Total fix not expected until 2021/2022 and has cost them quite a bit of money, nevermind the reputational damage.

However, their XWB and T7000 seem to be doing ok. And LH chose the T1000 for their 787-9s ordered last year. Remains to be seen if EK do the same with theirs.


The XWB is doing Ok, The T7000 has the same issues as the T1000. It's just much younger so the engines have not gotten to the ground the fleet stage. They will not get to that stage either. Engines are starting to get pulled and are appearing in the repair shops now to get the same modifications as the T1000 fleet. SASEL is doing the first one right now and Delta is expecting to begin a mod line later this spring once the required tooling is on site.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:57 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

Yes, unfortunate with the T1000 issues. They have had setbacks as well on fixes. Total fix not expected until 2021/2022 and has cost them quite a bit of money, nevermind the reputational damage.

However, their XWB and T7000 seem to be doing ok. And LH chose the T1000 for their 787-9s ordered last year. Remains to be seen if EK do the same with theirs.


The XWB is doing Ok, The T7000 has the same issues as the T1000. It's just much younger so the engines have not gotten to the ground the fleet stage. They will not get to that stage either. Engines are starting to get pulled and are appearing in the repair shops now to get the same modifications as the T1000 fleet. SASEL is doing the first one right now and Delta is expecting to begin a mod line later this spring once the required tooling is on site.


Any details on what the mods include?
 
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par13del
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:05 pm

SteelChair wrote:
But there is no doubt that the T1000 engine problems have proven very timely for GE at a time when GE really needed help.

How so, has any airline cancelled their RR contracts and paid the penalty and cost to switch to GE?

The issue illustrates why the engine OEM's were never interested in the common pylon and easy change when proposed for the 787, imagine if that was done.
How many of those 787's that have been sitting for in some cases a year or more would still have Rollers hung off their wings if they could be easily changed?

However, another poster did raise a good point, is there double counting of faulty engines and their replacements, the grounding of the 787's due to engines is unprecedented and as we all know is a design / manufacturing problem.
 
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par13del
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:09 pm

I guess I should also add in true a.net fashion, GE also has issues on their engines on the 787, however, I will leave the financial experts to argue whether the issue of flying to avoid ice formation versus staying on the ground is economically the same.
 
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:17 pm

par13del wrote:

However, another poster did raise a good point, is there double counting of faulty engines and their replacements ... ?


Already answered. No.

PM wrote:



No. If RR delivered new T1000s to replace faulty ones or took in an engine for repair and “re-delivered” it, these won’t appear in the numbers above. These are purely engines delivered with (on) new build widebodies.
 
WIederling
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:26 pm

PM wrote:
olle wrote:
With the Boeing domination of WB (70-30) over Airbus fast changing to a more 50-50 for passenger WB aircraft …


Actually, it has been more like 60-40 for the past three years.


That development explains the "analyst attack" on RR.
https://www.google.com/search?q=rolls+r ... st+warning

To appease the markets RR reduced workforce which then aggravated the T1000 problems.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:29 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Huge hit...£2.3B estimated total!!

Boeing says, "hold my beer!". :-(

How much do we think the PW GTF problems have cost?

par13del wrote:
The issue illustrates why the engine OEM's were never interested in the common pylon and easy change when proposed for the 787, imagine if that was done.
How many of those 787's that have been sitting for in some cases a year or more would still have Rollers hung off their wings if they could be easily changed?

I think this is a non-sequitur. From what I read, GE could not increase production of GEnX in time to make a difference, and either the customers own the RR engines already or they have signed long term PBTH contracts.

I would imagine the common pylon died just because it was in the end cheaper and simpler to design and implement two pylons rather than to design and implement one that both companies could sign off on.

Sure, that could mean some foot dragging was involved, but I also think some real world engineering was also involved.
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WIederling
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Huge hit...£2.3B estimated total!!

Boeing says, "hold my beer!". :-(

How much do we think the PW GTF problems have cost?

par13del wrote:
The issue illustrates why the engine OEM's were never interested in the common pylon and easy change when proposed for the 787, imagine if that was done.
How many of those 787's that have been sitting for in some cases a year or more would still have Rollers hung off their wings if they could be easily changed?

I think this is a non-sequitur. From what I read, GE could not increase production of GEnX in time to make a difference, and either the customers own the RR engines already or they have signed long term PBTH contracts.

I would imagine the common pylon died just because it was in the end cheaper and simpler to design and implement two pylons rather than to design and implement one that both companies could sign off on.

Sure, that could mean some foot dragging was involved, but I also think some real world engineering was also involved.


Flight international once reported about the A310 introducing a cross manufacturer common engine pylon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310 note #21
( unfortunately the FlightGlobal/FlightInternational archive is currently offline.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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AECM
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:37 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

Yes, unfortunate with the T1000 issues. They have had setbacks as well on fixes. Total fix not expected until 2021/2022 and has cost them quite a bit of money, nevermind the reputational damage.

However, their XWB and T7000 seem to be doing ok. And LH chose the T1000 for their 787-9s ordered last year. Remains to be seen if EK do the same with theirs.


The XWB is doing Ok, The T7000 has the same issues as the T1000. It's just much younger so the engines have not gotten to the ground the fleet stage. They will not get to that stage either. Engines are starting to get pulled and are appearing in the repair shops now to get the same modifications as the T1000 fleet. SASEL is doing the first one right now and Delta is expecting to begin a mod line later this spring once the required tooling is on site.
I think that RR mentioned before A339 EIS that the "early" T7000 could need extra attention on the first shop visit. Being the T7000 based on the revised version of the T1000-TEN i think that currently the major issue is related with premature HPT blades erosion that was identified in Singapore B78X. Is there any other issues?
 
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:54 pm

I grew up in a world where the engine market was dominated by PW (727, 737, DC-9, MD-80). The 747 made its first flight with PW engines. So did the 767 and 777. But GE were snapping at their heels (at least on widebodies) with pole position on the A300 and DC-10.

RR had delusions of grandeur on the TriStar but mostly lived on scraps.

How things change. It is 2 1/2 years since PW delivered two new engines on a commercial widebody (an A330 for China Southern in July 2017).
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:14 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:

Yes, unfortunate with the T1000 issues. They have had setbacks as well on fixes. Total fix not expected until 2021/2022 and has cost them quite a bit of money, nevermind the reputational damage.

However, their XWB and T7000 seem to be doing ok. And LH chose the T1000 for their 787-9s ordered last year. Remains to be seen if EK do the same with theirs.


The XWB is doing Ok, The T7000 has the same issues as the T1000. It's just much younger so the engines have not gotten to the ground the fleet stage. They will not get to that stage either. Engines are starting to get pulled and are appearing in the repair shops now to get the same modifications as the T1000 fleet. SASEL is doing the first one right now and Delta is expecting to begin a mod line later this spring once the required tooling is on site.


Any details on what the mods include?

Same as for the T1000. Replace the blades of first two stages of the Intermediate Compressor and change the High Pressure Turbine blades. The 1000 visit also changes the blades on the Intermediate Pressure Turbine, but that seems to be OK in the 7000. I imagine there will also be some external tubing Service Bulletins to improve something. The 1000 package visit usually has 3-4 that get done with each motor.

It's a pretty big package. To get to the HPT all of the modules of the motor have to be separated. I think the 1000 visit takes about 50 days on average.
 
smartplane
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Re: Widebody Engine Deliveries 2019

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:37 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
Once the A320CEO are all delivered, they will be out of the NB game until the next gen NB not due to enter service until late 2020s or early 2030s. 737 Max and C919 are 100% CFM, Mitsubishi MRJ, e-2 and A220 are 100% PW and the A320neo can be had with CFM or PW.

Some would say they have identified a more profitable niche within the NB market.

For example, RR are still manufacturing parts and have a technical advisory role for the V2500 (as well as earning fees / royalties for their PBTH / maintenance software IAE use), have JV's with MTU, and manufacture parts, and are a technical partner with PW for the GTF family, including remedial design and manufacturing. And they have direct and indirect LEAP interest, thanks to Chinese walls. So not risk sharing partners, but quite possibly more lucrative.

PW has provided technical and manufacturing capacity with Trent remedial work.

One air frame company has tried to hold the line that the engines under the wings, whoever builds them, can only be purchased from them, and has imposed onerous terms and conditions. Another air frame company has responded to customer demand.

The reality is the World has one civil aircraft engine power plant company too many. JV's and collaboration only go so far. Ironically, if not for the Trent issues, the established RR lifetime cradle to grave model, with the option of dealing direct with customers, is the most likely to nurture a sustainable engine designer / builder.

In hindsight, GE must wish they had thrown in their lot with Airbus, and let PW and RR deal with Boeing. Not just the safety culture that needs to change at Boeing.

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