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OB1504
Topic Author
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DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:07 pm

Anyone know why N702DN diverted to MIA this morning? If it’s mechanical, it seems like Delta has had a lot of maintenance issues with their 777s lately.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:14 pm

They have had a few fuel stops on that route lately.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:41 pm

I'm sure it's the next step in the MIA buildup after the LATAM deal.... :stirthepot: :rotfl:
 
Q
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:47 pm

probably it was a strong headwind fuel burned too much had to refuel MIA before going to ATL.

Q
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:53 pm

Not a diversion at all. They left JNB filed to MIA. JNB hasn’t been hot (highs in low-mid 20s), so it was almost certainly a headwinds issue.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
x1234
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:12 pm

Wth UA's success on EWR-CPT I wonder if UA will consider (and the B789 has better performance) EWR-JNB which is actually shorter than ATL-JNB.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:15 pm

JNB-ATL has diverted a few times in recent weeks, including stops in SJU. Headwinds likely. Interestingly, it is quite blustery in South Florida at the moment.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:40 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Anyone know why N702DN diverted to MIA this morning? If it’s mechanical, it seems like Delta has had a lot of maintenance issues with their 777s lately.

Looks like it was a planned stop due to headwinds. But what 777 maintenance issues are you talking about? Other than the issue with the LAX-PVG flight earlier this week that led to the fuel dump over LA, what other DL 777 issues have come up? Certainly not a "lot" as you say.
 
Q
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:55 pm

Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q
 
sxf24
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:01 pm

Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


Not on JNB.
 
pnutt
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:07 pm

On December 29, they had a (fuel?) stop in JFK. I had to correct my mental map a little: JNB-JFK is about 400nm shorter than JNB-ATL, which I would not have expected.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:26 pm

pnutt wrote:
On December 29, they had a (fuel?) stop in JFK. I had to correct my mental map a little: JNB-JFK is about 400nm shorter than JNB-ATL, which I would not have expected.


Yup; it’s easy to forget just how far west ATL is (actually slightly west of DTW). But if they can make it, JFK is easily the best/least bad place to drop in because it’s a crew base and if the flight cancels on the ground or passengers deplane and clear formalities for some reason, reaccommodation options abound.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Q
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:28 pm

I found the source. EWR-SIN has a nonstop flight for Singapore Airlines uses Airbus 350 than distance JNB-ATL. It is able to fly a range enough fuel. No more stop fuel diversion ever again! Look at the Map. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EWR-SIN,+JNB-ATL

Q
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:32 pm

Q wrote:
I found the source. EWR-SIN has a nonstop flight for Singapore Airlines uses Airbus 350 than distance JNB-ATL. It is able to fly a range enough fuel. No more stop fuel diversion ever again! Look at the Map. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EWR-SIN,+JNB-ATL

Q

EWR-SIN operates with a reduced capacity A350 that can carry a lot more fuel. JNB is typically a Hot and High elevation airport which kills aircraft performance.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:32 pm

Q wrote:
I found the source. EWR-SIN has a nonstop flight for Singapore Airlines uses Airbus 350 than distance JNB-ATL. It is able to fly a range enough fuel. No more stop fuel diversion ever again! Look at the Map. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EWR-SIN,+JNB-ATL

Q


Keep in mind that SQ’s aircraft on that route aren’t very dense, JNB-ATL is much more westbound, and SIN is at sea level.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm

Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL
 
NYCAAer
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:00 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Anyone know why N702DN diverted to MIA this morning? If it’s mechanical, it seems like Delta has had a lot of maintenance issues with their 777s lately.

Looks like it was a planned stop due to headwinds. But what 777 maintenance issues are you talking about? Other than the issue with the LAX-PVG flight earlier this week that led to the fuel dump over LA, what other DL 777 issues have come up? Certainly not a "lot" as you say.


I think he’s referring to the DL 777 that diverted to BOS that was operating LAS-CDG for the CES show. There was a loud bang and the pilots decided to land in BOS. It’s not completely clear yet but they think it was in the air conditioning duct.
 
AKL321NX
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:15 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL

Hey that lie again
 
Q
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:19 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL



A what? A350 LAX-SYD can't fly. What are you thinking of this aircraft? A350 and B787 are very similar. Two engines and almost same size. A350 is able to fly that range for fuel burns. It does not make any sense to me. You are not an expertise Airbus 350 performance. Ask Airbus and if they are able to fly that range. United flies 787 LAX/IAH to SYD. It works.

Q
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:27 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Q wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q


dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL



A what? A350 LAX-SYD can't fly. What are you thinking of this aircraft? A350 and B787 are very similar. Two engines and almost same size. A350 is able to fly that range for fuel burns. It does not make any sense to me. You are not an expertise Airbus 350 performance. Ask Airbus and if they are able to fly that range. United flies 787 LAX/IAH to SYD. It works.

Q


Yes the A350 can of course fly from LAX-SYD. However with ETOPS fuel and required ALT fuel and reserves. DLs A350s cannot fly LAX-SYD with a payload tha makes sense to them.

Route planning isn’t just about if the plane can make it.....that’s why United stopped flying LAX-SIN. The plane could make it there just fine but the weight hit was to much
 
LAOCA
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:29 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
Q wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL



A what? A350 LAX-SYD can't fly. What are you thinking of this aircraft? A350 and B787 are very similar. Two engines and almost same size. A350 is able to fly that range for fuel burns. It does not make any sense to me. You are not an expertise Airbus 350 performance. Ask Airbus and if they are able to fly that range. United flies 787 LAX/IAH to SYD. It works.

Q


Yes the A350 can of course fly from LAX-SYD. However with ETOPS fuel and required ALT fuel and reserves. DLs A350s cannot fly LAX-SYD with a payload tha makes sense to them.

Route planning isn’t just about if the plane can make it.....that’s why United stopped flying LAX-SIN. The plane could make it there just fine but the weight hit was to much


I'm pretty sure some of that has changed. Part of the issue was getting rights to use CBR as an alternate. Also, some new frames coming in are 280T. Delta also took a very conservative position on flight planning initially. But everything points to the 350 flying this route before the end of next year.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:34 pm

Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.

Q

This route is the only route in the system where the 77L really outshines the A359.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:36 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
Q wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

dL A350s can’t even fly to SYD from LAX....let alone the hot and height JNB-ATL



A what? A350 LAX-SYD can't fly. What are you thinking of this aircraft? A350 and B787 are very similar. Two engines and almost same size. A350 is able to fly that range for fuel burns. It does not make any sense to me. You are not an expertise Airbus 350 performance. Ask Airbus and if they are able to fly that range. United flies 787 LAX/IAH to SYD. It works.

Q


Yes the A350 can of course fly from LAX-SYD. However with ETOPS fuel and required ALT fuel and reserves. DLs A350s cannot fly LAX-SYD with a payload tha makes sense to them.

Route planning isn’t just about if the plane can make it.....that’s why United stopped flying LAX-SIN. The plane could make it there just fine but the weight hit was to much

Delta average 50+ tons of payload on the 77L to SYD. Delta has massive cargo businesses, its not an inditement on the 359. The 35K can make it with that absurd amount of payload, but the 359 a little less.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:00 pm

x1234 wrote:
Wth UA's success on EWR-CPT I wonder if UA will consider (and the B789 has better performance) EWR-JNB which is actually shorter than ATL-JNB.

Wait, you somehow believe that a 789 has "better performance" than a 772LR, from a hot-high airport prior to a 16hr flight?

That's... interesting.



Q wrote:
I found the source. EWR-SIN has a nonstop flight for Singapore Airlines uses Airbus 350 than distance JNB-ATL. It is able to fly a range enough fuel. No more stop fuel diversion ever again! Look at the Map.

Here's the problem with that:
EWR and SIN are sea-level gateways, being flown with a modified A359 carrying 37% less pax than their typical configuration.

That's not going to work for an airline wanting to fly from a gateway at 5500ft, carrying cargo and a full pax load.



CriticalPoint wrote:
DLs A350s cannot fly LAX-SYD with a payload tha makes sense to them.

As much as you're attempting to couch it, your statement is still not accurate.

The correct response is that: in the current market situation, DL's calculation for its now 275tonne A359s (nearly all of which are capable of being uprated another 2tonnes+ if desired) is such that the opportunity cost remains greater than the benefit of using them in lieu of the 77L, on a route such as LAX-SYD.

Your statement also seems to assume that such a situation is predicated on what the A359 can/cannot carry, which again isn't necessary accurate, nor necessarily of primary concern.
An even bigger contribution can be "what do you then do with the 77L?"

It's the heaviest and longest ranged asset in their fleet, with essentially no value on the secondary market; thus there's not many other places to send an 8800nm/347tonne aircraft and expect to make money. Thus, even putting the A359s on SYD were to make ($N) extra money for DL, it does them no good on a systemwide basis if they have to place the 77Ls on a route that loses ($N+X).
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:04 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Wth UA's success on EWR-CPT I wonder if UA will consider (and the B789 has better performance) EWR-JNB which is actually shorter than ATL-JNB.

Wait, you somehow believe that a 789 has "better performance" than a 772LR, from a hot-high airport prior to a 16hr flight?

That's... interesting.



Q wrote:
I found the source. EWR-SIN has a nonstop flight for Singapore Airlines uses Airbus 350 than distance JNB-ATL. It is able to fly a range enough fuel. No more stop fuel diversion ever again! Look at the Map.

Here's the problem with that:
EWR and SIN are sea-level gateways, being flown with a modified A359 carrying 40% less pax than typical.

That's not going to work for an airline flying from a gateway at 5500ft, carrying cargo.



CriticalPoint wrote:
DLs A350s cannot fly LAX-SYD with a payload tha makes sense to them.

As much as you're attempting to couch it, your statement is still not accurate.

The correct response is that: in the current market situation, DL's calculation for its now 275tonne A359s (nearly all of which are capable of being uprated another 2tonnes+ if desired) is such that the opportunity cost remains greater than the benefit of using them in lieu of the 77L, on a route such as LAX-SYD.

Your statement also seems to assume that such a situation is predicated on what the A359 can/cannot carry, which again isn't necessary accurate. An even bigger contribution can be "what do you then do with the 77L?"

It's the heaviest and longest ranged asset in their fleet, with essentially no value on the secondary market; thus there's not many other places to send an 8800nm/347tonne aircraft and expect to make money. Thus, even putting the A359s on SYD were to make ($N) extra money for DL, it does them no good on a systemwide basis if they have to place the 77Ls on a route that loses ($N+X).


Ok.....you just used more words than me. Perhaps “can’t” was the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said is unable to fly LAX-SYD due to it not being able too with a payload DL deems profitable.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Ok.....you just used more words than me.

I didn't "use more words," I admonished two unsubstantiated assumptions, that you apparently missed and/or learned nothing from.....

As demonstrated by your repetition of the exact thing I warned you against focusing on.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
evanb
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:50 pm

Q wrote:
Delta should switches from B777LR to Airbus 350. Maybe A350 is better performance than 777LR.


DL have 10 B777-200LRs, likely nearly paid off and nearly fully depreciated. They need to fly somewhere. They're best suited to their longest routes or those that need the largest lifting power, invariably that is going to be routes like ATL-JNB, LAX-SYD, JFK-BOM, ATL-PVG, etc. It's the existence of the B777-200LR in the DL fleet that has influenced DL to go with the lower TOW and higher density on the A350.
 
Q
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:26 am

Here you go! South African approved fly JNB-JFK Airbus 350. See?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2020/

Delta could fly A350 JNB to ATL almost same as JFK.

Q
 
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dennypayne
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:38 am

Q wrote:
Here you go! South African approved fly JNB-JFK Airbus 350. See?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2020/

Delta could fly A350 JNB to ATL almost same as JFK.


Yes, but are you not understanding what LAX772LR wrote above? South African doesn't have 777's that they would then need to take off that route and fly somewhere else with, like Delta does.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
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IPFreely
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:08 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
Delta has massive cargo businesses.


Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 499
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:18 am

IPFreely wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Delta has massive cargo businesses.


Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.

Yes but Cargo can not be huge overall and still be very good on particular routes
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 406
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:00 am

IPFreely wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Delta has massive cargo businesses.


Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.

My point is some routes it can have an impact. DL made $254,000 on cargo on one flight to JNB.
 
777Mech
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:33 am

IPFreely wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Delta has massive cargo businesses.


Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.


$752 million is nothing to sneeze at.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:09 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
pnutt wrote:
On December 29, they had a (fuel?) stop in JFK. I had to correct my mental map a little: JNB-JFK is about 400nm shorter than JNB-ATL, which I would not have expected.


Yup; it’s easy to forget just how far west ATL is (actually slightly west of DTW). But if they can make it, JFK is easily the best/least bad place to drop in because it’s a crew base and if the flight cancels on the ground or passengers deplane and clear formalities for some reason, reaccommodation options abound.


At first glance, I scratched my head at JFK. Once I got geographic bearings I understood along with the reasons listed above. I am surprised DL doesn't have a destinated diversion airport for the JNB-ATL when the weather becomes a factor. According to this forum, there has been 3 different airports chosen in the past few weeks SJU,MIA & JFK.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:30 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
pnutt wrote:
On December 29, they had a (fuel?) stop in JFK. I had to correct my mental map a little: JNB-JFK is about 400nm shorter than JNB-ATL, which I would not have expected.


Yup; it’s easy to forget just how far west ATL is (actually slightly west of DTW). But if they can make it, JFK is easily the best/least bad place to drop in because it’s a crew base and if the flight cancels on the ground or passengers deplane and clear formalities for some reason, reaccommodation options abound.


At first glance, I scratched my head at JFK. Once I got geographic bearings I understood along with the reasons listed above. I am surprised DL doesn't have a destinated diversion airport for the JNB-ATL when the weather becomes a factor. According to this forum, there has been 3 different airports chosen in the past few weeks SJU,MIA & JFK.


I don't have enough information about the specific situation of each flight to be sure, but at least on a superficial level, all three stops seem consistent with an effort to get the flight as close to ATL as possible before diverting, and that seems a reasonable approach to me on this particular flight given that getting closer to ATL increases the odds of landing in the country of destination and increases the services available both for crew and passengers on the ground. (If ATL-JNB needed fuel stops sometimes, I don't know that the "get as close as possible to the destination" approach would make as much sense.)
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
evanb
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
At first glance, I scratched my head at JFK. Once I got geographic bearings I understood along with the reasons listed above. I am surprised DL doesn't have a destinated diversion airport for the JNB-ATL when the weather becomes a factor. According to this forum, there has been 3 different airports chosen in the past few weeks SJU,MIA & JFK.


But likely to be the only 3 times (maybe one or two more) that they'll have this problem all year.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:52 pm

777Mech wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Delta has massive cargo businesses.


Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.


$752 million is nothing to sneeze at.


Plus, it probably has a much higher margin and a larger impact on EBITDA.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
ethernal
Posts: 324
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:56 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Delta just released their 2019 annual report. Cargo business was 1.6% of total revenue. That's not massive.


$752 million is nothing to sneeze at.


Plus, it probably has a much higher margin and a larger impact on EBITDA.


This. Even accounting for extra fuel, ground handling costs, and extra administrative overhead of running the cargo business, this business probably sees 30-50% net margins because the flying is pretty much already paid for.
 
evanb
Posts: 918
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Re: DL201 JNB-ATL 777 diverts to MIA this morning

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:59 pm

Q wrote:
Here you go! South African approved fly JNB-JFK Airbus 350. See?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -jan-2020/

Delta could fly A350 JNB to ATL almost same as JFK.


And so? If you neighbor jumps off a bridge do you follow him?

A few things at play here ... 1) JNB-JFK is nearly an hour shorter than JNB-ATL. 2) SA's A350s likely have the higher TOW option than DL's. 3) JNB-JFK takes off an hour later, and thus at a slightly cooler temperature than JNB-ATL. 4) The routing to JFK is further north with an entirely different weather profile.

Points 1, 3 and possibly even 4 are a reason why DL chose to divert a JNB-ATL flight to JFK on 29 December (staggering, but true).

So the premise that DL could fly the A350 on JNB-ATL just because SA plan to fly is on JNB-JFK is false.

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