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Zoedyn
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China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:15 pm

Following a very productive aviation talk held in Beijing Jan 13 last week, CAAC and Italian Civil Aviation Authority have signed an agreement to dramatically expand their bilateral air service pact from the current 56 to 174 flights per week, making Italy the leader among European countries in terms of weekly frequencies allowed in their bilaterals with China. (cf. UK 150; France 126; Spain 100; Germany 55)

No doubt Italy will soon be the next popular destination country that various Chinese carriers will be eying covetously for their seemingly unstoppable expansion into Europe :rotfl:

https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=165596 ... der&for=pc

http://news.163.com/air/20/0114/11/F2RM ... 19JPB.html
 
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eta unknown
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:30 pm

Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.
 
Scotron12
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:35 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


And why not? Of course, this will not help AZ, but the country as a whole will gain.
 
IADFCO
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:26 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


And why not? Of course, this will not help AZ, but the country as a whole will gain.


Sure, as long as it stops there and it's not a Trojan horse, as in Piraeus Act II.
 
oldJoe
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:04 am

For me it`s a short minded approach frome the italian goverment, if we look at the losses of employment at AZ. Say, these chinese travellers come in for the next ten years and bring in a temporarly income ( even high ) What about a AZ flight attendant, age 25 today. Will it pay her/his pension in the future ? I guess not.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:17 am

Scotron12 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


And why not? Of course, this will not help AZ, but the country as a whole will gain.

Wise plan. Chinese tourists on Chinese carriers to spend money in Italy.

Long term an enabling move if there is a healthy Italian long haul airline.

Lightsaber
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MIflyer12
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:23 am

oldJoe wrote:
For me it`s a short minded approach frome the italian goverment, if we look at the losses of employment at AZ. Say, these chinese travellers come in for the next ten years and bring in a temporarly income ( even high ) What about a AZ flight attendant, age 25 today. Will it pay her/his pension in the future ? I guess not.

You might look at tourist site + restaurant + hotel employment vs. Alitalia staff.
 
Speedalive
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:16 am

Ahh so that unidentified A330 NEO order is for launching an air bridge to Italy from China ;)
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:35 am

QR will be happy with that as they can fly more CN destination via IG
 
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zeke
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:30 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy
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AZa346
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:03 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
QR will be happy with that as they can fly more CN destination via IG

Shangai, Beijing and Honk Kong (if included) would work from Milan for Air Italy... and they would definitely have better yeld than India and Bangkok that they operated a while back.
 
myki
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:14 pm

zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy

In all cases, no, but generally this is correct. I guess the broader picture needs to be looked at in how a demographic - in this, the Chinese population - can contribute economically to the country, knowing how their travel patterns are.

Staying in hotels, notorious for bargaining down the price so much for a group that the profit margin is minimal, however there would still be some benefit for the hotelier, along with employment for the staff, and then, for example, purchasing food from a local supplier for a buffet breakfast.

There's also transfers e.g. if they begin/recommence, and the Chinese population are flying AZ/IG to get to GRU, EZE, etc. there is the employment of AZ staff and FCO ground handling staff.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:47 pm

The Italian boutiques will be thankful at least...
 
edealinfo
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:51 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


And why not? Of course, this will not help AZ, but the country as a whole will gain.


Sure, as long as it stops there and it's not a Trojan horse, as in Piraeus Act II.


>>>Sure, as long as it stops there and it's not a Trojan horse, as in Piraeus Act II

WOW! This is good!
 
edealinfo
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:52 pm

Speedalive wrote:
Ahh so that unidentified A330 NEO order is for launching an air bridge to Italy from China ;)


Good one!
 
edealinfo
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:55 pm

zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy


So true. That's their model for taking over the world. You have to give the Chinese credit for being so smart and taking advantage of Europeans.
 
oschkosch
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:05 pm

zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy
correct. In Thailand they call these chinese groups "zero dollar tours", because 0 $ reach the thai economy.

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MIflyer12
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:17 pm

edealinfo wrote:
zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy


So true. That's their model for taking over the world. You have to give the Chinese credit for being so smart and taking advantage of Europeans.


I suppose they carry in their own food for the restaurants in Italy to prepare for them? You're pushing racist arguments.
 
edealinfo
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

I suppose they carry in their own food for the restaurants in Italy to prepare for them?


Nah, they own the restaurants and buy Chinese ingredients.
 
ShanghaiNoon
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:44 pm

zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinesbe own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy


It's still better than if they didn't go at all. They also spend a lot on luxury goods.
 
Speedalive
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:46 pm

zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Given the current Italian economy, AZ in a terminal death spiral, Air Italy's growth stagnant, Rome probably wants as many foreign tourists as possible spending their money in the country.


That’s not how Chinese inbound tourists work, they fly in on Chinese airlines, take Chinese owned tours, stay in Chinese owned hotels, eat in Chinese own restaurants, leaving next to nothing for the local economy

I agree, but those Chinese owned businesses all pay local taxes which is where the contribution is. If none of that money is being spent in public interest, that sounds like a government issue.
 
edealinfo
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:24 pm

ShanghaiNoon wrote:
zeke wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
They also spend a lot on luxury goods.


Do they, really?

You can get "genuine-fakes"....meaning you can't tell the difference between the fake and the original at a fraction of the original cost. If the Chinese are as smart as they are held out to be, do you think they would overpay for something that no one could tell the difference? I am not talking about the cheap fakes but the so-called genuine-fakes.

For all you know, all those increased flights could result in more Chinese visiting Italy to copy ideas, designs, and products. heck, they could also buy originals in Italy in order to copy it back home! They may yet have the last laugh on this [ increase air bilateral with Italy].
 
MaverickM11
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:33 pm

AZa346 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
QR will be happy with that as they can fly more CN destination via IG

Shangai, Beijing and Honk Kong (if included) would work from Milan for Air Italy... and they would definitely have better yeld than India and Bangkok that they operated a while back.

China-Italy fares are horrific, so have at it....if QR/IG wants to lose exponentially more money.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Kadish
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:37 pm

edealinfo wrote:
ShanghaiNoon wrote:
zeke wrote:


Do they, really?

You can get "genuine-fakes"....meaning you can't tell the difference between the fake and the original at a fraction of the original cost. If the Chinese are as smart as they are held out to be, do you think they would overpay for something that no one could tell the difference? I am not talking about the cheap fakes but the so-called genuine-fakes.

For all you know, all those increased flights could result in more Chinese visiting Italy to copy ideas, designs, and products. heck, they could also buy originals in Italy in order to copy it back home! They may yet have the last laugh on this [ increase air bilateral with Italy].


Sure, in a world dominated by shops selling online they need to go abroad to buy something to copy at home..on top of that, do you know where these original N expensive products are made?
I could take u seriuosly if u said that they fly a lot to copy the planes in which they are flying...Be more sensible mate.

Anyway, If I could choose between chinese spending nothing or europeans spending a lot on booze so they jump higher from balconies...
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:38 pm

edealinfo wrote:
You can get "genuine-fakes"....meaning you can't tell the difference between the fake and the original at a fraction of the original cost. If the Chinese are as smart as they are held out to be, do you think they would overpay for something that no one could tell the difference? I am not talking about the cheap fakes but the so-called genuine-fakes.


Getting off topic...

Go into the Louis Vuitton store on Champs-Elysees or even random luxury good stores in US and report back.

Actually, why do you think all those luxury brand just bend over their knees whenever there's any "outrage" (i.e. things like website reporting Taiwan as a separate country) if they don't consider Chinese market to be important?

You're WAY underestimating the "mianzi" and its role in Chinese society...

Back on topic.

We should expect a flood of Chinese airlines flying from every single 2nd/3rd tier cities into FCO or MXP or even VCE. Who cares about making money?
 
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Revelation
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm

As if Venice wasn't already sinking... I guess the temptation to get a break away from the worker's paradise is pretty strong, but IMO it defeats the purpose to cling to large groups of people from your own home country. Regardless, bon voyage!
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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ShanghaiNoon
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:00 am

edealinfo wrote:
ShanghaiNoon wrote:
zeke wrote:


Do they, really?

You can get "genuine-fakes"....meaning you can't tell the difference between the fake and the original at a fraction of the original cost. If the Chinese are as smart as they are held out to be, do you think they would overpay for something that no one could tell the difference? I am not talking about the cheap fakes but the so-called genuine-fakes.


If you're in China, and you haven't actually been to Europe, no one believes your wears are legit.

For all you know, all those increased flights could result in more Chinese visiting Italy to copy ideas, designs, and products. heck, they could also buy originals in Italy in order to copy it back home! They may yet have the last laugh on this [ increase air bilateral with Italy].


They don't need direct flights for that.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:39 am

In terms of impact to the Italian economy, it's difficult to quantify.
These Chinese tours use the lowest bidding bus companies, often resulting in shady outfits from Greece or Albania that try to milk the tour leaders for being stuck in Paris for an unplanned detour. I've seen it, trust me.

The hotels may be Chinese owned at the shareholding level, but most of what the Chinese tours spend will vanish in payroll and real estate amortizations/depreciation. Most hotels in Italy and Europe don't make margins, 10% if at all.

Most low end tours don't include lunch. Fact is that for Chinese who don't know the Italian eating culture, Chinese restaurants remain the most attractive option. But there too, payroll takes the cake.

Luxury shopping is a fact but nowadays any respectable Italian outlet will have boutiques across China. So we're talking about niches, ie limited items, or marginal price differences.

Italy has no secrets for the Chinese. Italy is already full with generations of Chinese. A stroll around Roma Termini and Milano Centrale will have you wondering if you aren't in China.
Still, more and more Chinese are visiting Italy.
Italy is a concept, not a destination. A Tesla can beat a Ferrari in a drag race, yet people are still buying more and more Ferrari's.

So at the end of the day, I think that selling Italy through traffic rights is not about short-term, where will they sleep, where will they eat kind of thinking, but how many people can you get talking about Italy.

In addition, the benefits for the next Italian flagship airline are certain. Getting major access to China is a master chess move that many countries/airlines will envy.
 
FatCat
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:47 am

You know Italy holds two of the biggest Chinese resident communities in Europe
My home city, Prato, has Europe's biggest community ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Italy ) - mind you, only 40% to 50% of Chinese residents have valid documents, so numbers should be doubled.
There is not only tourism - but also business and family reunions.
You may see on connection flights between MUC, FRA and AMS to FLR - about 80% are Chinese residents coming back home after visiting families, from PVG, PEK, CAN most of times.
A direct CAN / PVG / PEK - PSA flight once a day I bet will be packed... A332 for sure, but also bigger birds, like the A359...
Aeroplane flies high
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ShanghaiNoon
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:35 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Luxury shopping is a fact but nowadays any respectable Italian outlet will have boutiques across China. So we're talking about niches, ie limited items, or marginal price differences.



The price differences are significant because of the high luxury tax in China, and there's been a lot of scandals over the years where the real boutiques got caught selling fake goods. If you or someone you know haven't been to Europe, everyone just assumes you're sporting a knock-off.
 
Sokes
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:08 pm

I recently saw a Chinese buying a beer somewhere in Europe. Hard to believe, but the waiter was a European. If the brewery had employed only Chinese labor?

Why should a politician tell me with whom I have to fly? I also don't tell him where he should buy his food.
On the other hand: In some cultures parents choose the marriage partner for their children.

I was always an enemy of political correctness. I know now why some believe in it.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:35 pm

If I remember correctly somebody from Spain was once Roman emperor. A Roman was basically somebody who identified with the idea of Rome.
The Portuguese were ethnocentric, the British were not. Which explains the territorial distribution of India between Portuguese and British during colonial times.
The Mughal Empire under tolerant Akbar did well. His great grandson Aurangzeb was a religious nut, therefore initiating the descend of the Mughal Empire.
As far as I know even the Ottoman Empire was tolerant.
Which city, if not Rome, should welcome foreign tourists?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:50 pm

With this aviation deal done, Italy just got so much more potential to unlock with the Chinese tourism-wise.

I can confidently bet, given the many world-famous places of interest Italy boasts, there'd be simply no shortage of wave after wave of Chinese tourists (many with deep pockets) who are willing/eager to visit Rome, Milan, Florence, Venice...and of course, to enjoy, spend and buy ;)

Below is a pic I took while visiting Venice. It is surely telling of something local shopkeepers are financially well aware of :dollarsign:
BTW, the gondola ride in Venice was really a wonderful experience to me. Also I thought I’d tasted the most delectable pizza from a little store near the Trevi Fountain in Rome :cheerful:
Image
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:10 am

ShanghaiNoon wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Luxury shopping is a fact but nowadays any respectable Italian outlet will have boutiques across China. So we're talking about niches, ie limited items, or marginal price differences.



The price differences are significant because of the high luxury tax in China, and there's been a lot of scandals over the years where the real boutiques got caught selling fake goods. If you or someone you know haven't been to Europe, everyone just assumes you're sporting a knock-off.


Isn't the luxury/import tax collected at customs upon arrival in China anyway?
I don't know how it works in China but in Europe customs at port of entries are likely to levy a higher total duty if you're declaring something that you're bringing over in the suitcase than something that comes in under a waybill number with attached invoice (ie as cargo).



I wonder if DL may see this as a long-term opportunity somehow.
The cargo potential is certain.
Pax-wise it's a bit more complicated but if they can carve out a niche and appeal to the growing number of riches of China, with an exploding purchase power at the top of the middle class, who knows? Who else is buying the 5-figure EV's in China? If there is a market for Tesla, they may be a market for a SQ-style Italian DL franchise.
 
Toinou
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:29 am

Sokes wrote:
If I remember correctly somebody from Spain was once Roman emperor. A Roman was basically somebody who identified with the idea of Rome.
The Portuguese were ethnocentric, the British were not. Which explains the territorial distribution of India between Portuguese and British during colonial times.
The Mughal Empire under tolerant Akbar did well. His great grandson Aurangzeb was a religious nut, therefore initiating the descend of the Mughal Empire.
As far as I know even the Ottoman Empire was tolerant.
Which city, if not Rome, should welcome foreign tourists?


1) You know that the Roman empire was quite long time ago, do you? Who became a Roman emperor seems a rather bad indication of how they would welcome tourism.
2) (Off-topic) I wonder on what you base your considerations on the respective tolerance of different culture/civilisations... The British not ethnocentric? Frankly, I guess many (add any people colonized by the British, including the Irish, here) may disagree. And I won't even start with the tolerance of the Ottoman Empire.
 
steman
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:08 am

Zoedyn wrote:
With this aviation deal done, Italy just got so much more potential to unlock with the Chinese tourism-wise.

I can confidently bet, given the many world-famous places of interest Italy boasts, there'd be simply no shortage of wave after wave of Chinese tourists (many with deep pockets) who are willing/eager to visit Rome, Milan, Florence, Venice...and of course, to enjoy, spend and buy ;)

Below is a pic I took while visiting Venice. It is surely telling of something local shopkeepers are financially well aware of :dollarsign:
BTW, the gondola ride in Venice was really a wonderful experience to me. Also I thought I’d tasted the most delectable pizza from a little store near the Trevi Fountain in Rome :cheerful:
Image


Sorry,

I don´t get what the pic of an ATM means. What are shopkeepers aware of?

I am not sure if this new agreement between China and Italy is really advantageous for Italy or Europe. Wouldn´t it be better if the EU negotiates
this kind of agreements for all its members? Why let one Country unilaterally decide about something that can potentially negatively impact other EU Countries?
 
ShanghaiNoon
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:09 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
ShanghaiNoon wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Luxury shopping is a fact but nowadays any respectable Italian outlet will have boutiques across China. So we're talking about niches, ie limited items, or marginal price differences.



The price differences are significant because of the high luxury tax in China, and there's been a lot of scandals over the years where the real boutiques got caught selling fake goods. If you or someone you know haven't been to Europe, everyone just assumes you're sporting a knock-off.


Isn't the luxury/import tax collected at customs upon arrival in China anyway?
I don't know how it works in China but in Europe customs at port of entries are likely to levy a higher total duty if you're declaring something that you're bringing over in the suitcase than something that comes in under a waybill number with attached invoice (ie as cargo).



They rarely check your bag at PVG, though I've found that CAN and TAO are a different matter.

steman wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
With this aviation deal done, Italy just got so much more potential to unlock with the Chinese tourism-wise.

I can confidently bet, given the many world-famous places of interest Italy boasts, there'd be simply no shortage of wave after wave of Chinese tourists (many with deep pockets) who are willing/eager to visit Rome, Milan, Florence, Venice...and of course, to enjoy, spend and buy ;)

Below is a pic I took while visiting Venice. It is surely telling of something local shopkeepers are financially well aware of :dollarsign:
BTW, the gondola ride in Venice was really a wonderful experience to me. Also I thought I’d tasted the most delectable pizza from a little store near the Trevi Fountain in Rome :cheerful:
Image


Sorry,

I don´t get what the pic of an ATM means. What are shopkeepers aware of?


This machine accepts Chinese cards.
 
steman
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:23 am

ShanghaiNoon wrote:

This machine accepts Chinese cards.


Oh, thank you.
 
Kadish
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:48 am

[quote="Sokes"]If I remember correctly somebody from Spain was once Roman emperor. A Roman was basically somebody who identified with the idea of Rome.
The Portuguese were ethnocentric, the British were not. Which explains the territorial distribution of India between Portuguese and British during colonial times.
The Mughal Empire under tolerant Akbar did well. His great grandson Aurangzeb was a religious nut, therefore initiating the descend of the Mughal Empire.
As far as I know even the Ottoman Empire was tolerant.
Which city, if not Rome, should welcome foreign tourists?[/quote]

A bit of history.
There were 3 roman emperors Adriano, Trajano and Teodosio. At that time Spain didnt extist, it did exist a " County" called Hispania which belong to the Román Empire.

Ansewering your question I would say they did not welcome tourist..at least catholic, they were killed or used in the Coliseum. On the contrary, in Toledo( Spain ) all religions, muslim, jews N catholics live peacefully for a long time.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:52 am

How much political baggage is attached to that deal?
How many of said new connections are genuine business case?
 
Sokes
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Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:34 am

Toinou wrote:
1) You know that the Roman empire was quite long time ago, do you? Who became a Roman emperor seems a rather bad indication of how they would welcome tourism.

Agreed.

Toinou wrote:
2) (Off-topic) I wonder on what you base your considerations on the respective tolerance of different culture/civilisations... The British not ethnocentric? Frankly, I guess many (add any people colonized by the British, including the Irish, here) may disagree. And I won't even start with the tolerance of the Ottoman Empire.


I was under the impression that the Irish conflict was about property. The British stole the land (in an agraic society) from the Irish. But that theft was before the Empire time. Which of course supports your earlier argument that time matters. You are also right that Britain didn't correct that wrong during Empire time.
I believe there is not much of a conflict left once only a few percent of population work in agriculture.

I know that every member of the British Empire was allowed to settle everywhere within the Empire. White settlers in South Africa didn't like Indians to settle as well and therefore wanted out of the Empire/ demanded Dominion status.
Unless you ask somebody from high society the British have an excellent reputation among the elder Indians.

Do you judge the Ottoman Empire according to the standards of our time or according to standards of their time?


Kadish wrote:
A bit of history.
There were 3 roman emperors Adriano, Trajano and Teodosio. At that time Spain didnt extist, it did exist a " County" called Hispania which belong to the Román Empire.

Interesting, I didn't knew. I mean to say I assume somebody from that county had differences in culture from people living in Rome. Still they could become Emperor. But then maybe these Emperors didn't really grow up in Spain? I remember I read something that local rulers had to give their children away for upbringing as guarantee that the local rulers don't start trouble.

Kadish wrote:
Ansewering your question I would say they did not welcome tourist..at least catholic, they were killed or used in the Coliseum. On the contrary, in Toledo( Spain ) all religions, muslim, jews N catholics live peacefully for a long time.


I believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that peace in agraic societies is best maintained with very crude methods. I believe the means do not fit to the aim. People from industrial societies are mostly liberals. They can't understand that mindset. Machiavelli's "The Prince" can give you a glimpse.
Romans had slavery. A terrible state from today's perspective. But in the context of their time?
At any rate I admire the British Empire, but have rather mixed feelings about the Roman Empire. Maybe I'm wrong about the Roman Empire.

In Europe people butchered each other over catholic/ protestant theological differences. Are you surprised that polytheist Romans who can accept that other people have their own gods feel offended if a monotheist minority comes along and proclaims that the majority got it wrong and only they know the truth?
Add a missionary zeal and surely there will be trouble:

Mt 10, 32ff:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

I love the New Testament. Jesus answering a question by asking a question breathes enlightenment. "THINK FOR YOURSELF!" Indeed I believe his mentality contradicts the existence of dogma. His liberal mind did not fit the mindset of his time. Trouble was sure to come. Jesus saw it.

"It is the reformer who is anxious for the reform, and not society, from which he should expect nothing better than opposition, abhorrence and even mortal persecution. Why may not society regard as retrogression what the reformer holds dear as life itself?"
M.K.Gandhi: "An Autobiography", chapter "Sanitary reform and famine relief"

I don't know about Toledo.

I admit a lot of mistakes can be found in my earlier post. I myself love Prague. The idea that Czech people may one day say they don't want any more tourists upsets me. I believe there are a few exceptional places in the world and even if 100.000 Chinese/ year would like to spend three days each in Rome they shouldn't be denied that joy. It's a heritage of mankind.

I don't deny the possibility of conflict with locals. Landlords may prefer to rent flats on a daily basis to tourists ...
If that be the case Rome has to increase the municipal taxes until some industries leave and release pressure on the housing market/ infrastructure. The added income helps to further reduce infrastructure problems. As a balance Rome may also charge a tax on hotels. Uganda does something similar with their gorillas.
And the shifting industries help other Italian cities who have employment problems.

Alternatively one could consider Rome's center as tourism focused and extend the suburbs to create new flats/ industries.
If politicians have themselves properties in Rome they may not want to depress their investment. In this case they won't like to increase taxes/ add more housing in the suburbs. But should the Chinese then be blamed for a tight housing market and overburdened infrastructure?

Ironic: I read the Chinese razed whatever cultural heritage they had in their own property market frenzy. Now they come to Rome.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Kadish
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:36 am

Re: China, Italy expand flying rights dramatically: 174 weekly frequencies allowed

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:57 am

Sokes wrote:
Toinou wrote:
1) You know that the Roman empire was quite long time ago, do you? Who became a Roman emperor seems a rather bad indication of how they would welcome tourism.

Agreed.

Toinou wrote:
2) (Off-topic) I wonder on what you base your considerations on the respective tolerance of different culture/civilisations... The British not ethnocentric? Frankly, I guess many (add any people colonized by the British, including the Irish, here) may disagree. And I won't even start with the tolerance of the Ottoman Empire.


I was under the impression that the Irish conflict was about property. The British stole the land (in an agraic society) from the Irish. But that theft was before the Empire time. Which of course supports your earlier argument that time matters. You are also right that Britain didn't correct that wrong during Empire time.
I believe there is not much of a conflict left once only a few percent of population work in agriculture.

I know that every member of the British Empire was allowed to settle everywhere within the Empire. White settlers in South Africa didn't like Indians to settle as well and therefore wanted out of the Empire/ demanded Dominion status.
Unless you ask somebody from high society the British have an excellent reputation among the elder Indians.

Do you judge the Ottoman Empire according to the standards of our time or according to standards of their time?


Kadish wrote:
A bit of history.
There were 3 roman emperors Adriano, Trajano and Teodosio. At that time Spain didnt extist, it did exist a " County" called Hispania which belong to the Román Empire.

Interesting, I didn't knew. I mean to say I assume somebody from that county had differences in culture from people living in Rome. Still they could become Emperor. But then maybe these Emperors didn't really grow up in Spain? I remember I read something that local rulers had to give their children away for upbringing as guarantee that the local rulers don't start trouble.

Kadish wrote:
Ansewering your question I would say they did not welcome tourist..at least catholic, they were killed or used in the Coliseum. On the contrary, in Toledo( Spain ) all religions, muslim, jews N catholics live peacefully for a long time.


I believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that peace in agraic societies is best maintained with very crude methods. I believe the means do not fit to the aim. People from industrial societies are mostly liberals. They can't understand that mindset. Machiavelli's "The Prince" can give you a glimpse.
Romans had slavery. A terrible state from today's perspective. But in the context of their time?
At any rate I admire the British Empire, but have rather mixed feelings about the Roman Empire. Maybe I'm wrong about the Roman Empire.

In Europe people butchered each other over catholic/ protestant theological differences. Are you surprised that polytheist Romans who can accept that other people have their own gods feel offended if a monotheist minority comes along and proclaims that the majority got it wrong and only they know the truth?
Add a missionary zeal and surely there will be trouble:

Mt 10, 32ff:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

I love the New Testament. Jesus answering a question by asking a question breathes enlightenment. "THINK FOR YOURSELF!" Indeed I believe his mentality contradicts the existence of dogma. His liberal mind did not fit the mindset of his time. Trouble was sure to come. Jesus saw it.

"It is the reformer who is anxious for the reform, and not society, from which he should expect nothing better than opposition, abhorrence and even mortal persecution. Why may not society regard as retrogression what the reformer holds dear as life itself?"
M.K.Gandhi: "An Autobiography", chapter "Sanitary reform and famine relief"

I don't know about Toledo.

I admit a lot of mistakes can be found in my earlier post. I myself love Prague. The idea that Czech people may one day say they don't want any more tourists upsets me. I believe there are a few exceptional places in the world and even if 100.000 Chinese/ year would like to spend three days each in Rome they shouldn't be denied that joy. It's a heritage of mankind.

I don't deny the possibility of conflict with locals. Landlords may prefer to rent flats on a daily basis to tourists ...
If that be the case Rome has to increase the municipal taxes until some industries leave and release pressure on the housing market/ infrastructure. The added income helps to further reduce infrastructure problems. As a balance Rome may also charge a tax on hotels. Uganda does something similar with their gorillas.
And the shifting industries help other Italian cities who have employment problems.

Alternatively one could consider Rome's center as tourism focused and extend the suburbs to create new flats/ industries.
If politicians have themselves properties in Rome they may not want to depress their investment. In this case they won't like to increase taxes/ add more housing in the suburbs. But should the Chinese then be blamed for a tight housing market and overburdened infrastructure?

Ironic: I read the Chinese razed whatever cultural heritage they had in their own property market frenzy. Now they come to Rome.


Again a bit of history:
It was pretty unusual to have a "non roman" emperor. And by roman I mean wot today is Italy.

The spanish emperors were born un Spain and more ir less as teenagers they moved away.
Havinvg said that these spanish emperors rellay like wars N they spent a lot if time on places such as wot today is Germany,Romanos,France...even Israel.

I ve read an spanish writer called Santiago Posteguillo widely translated into several languages. Among other works he has 2 trilogies talking about the spanish emperors, half ficticion half facts...it is very interesting.

Enjoy

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