xwb777
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Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:28 pm

In an article published by The Telegraph, internal Boeing staff emails, are revealing that the B777X is sharing the same issues with the B737MAX.

Quote:
“ In an email from June 2018, before the first Max crash, one Boeing worker wrote: “Best part is we are re-starting this whole thing with the 777X with the same supplier and have signed up to an even more aggressive schedule.””

Some other emails are stating that Boeing is working with the suppliers that have offered the lowest cost.

If this is true, will the B777X go in the same direction as the B737MAX?
I feel that the article so not clear enough to make a judgement.

Link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... 1579370131
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
 
dopplerd
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Re: Internal emails reveal that the B777X share the same MAX issues.

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:38 pm

Are you saying that 777X has MCAS system? According to the snippet of the article I can read it seems like there was a problematic supplier for the MAX that also has work on the 777X which is far from the same issues the MAX is experiencing.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Internal emails reveal that the B777X share the same MAX issues.

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:48 pm

That comment was about TRU the SIM supplier. Apparently the schedule to develop training program is more aggressive than MAX. Like I said somewhere, whoever redacted MAX documents brilliantly thought it is OK to leave 777X comments unredacted. STC is going to have a field day.
 
Opus99
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Re: Internal emails reveal that the B777X share the same MAX issues.

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:04 pm

This was referring to the flight simulators not the actual aircraft.
 
smartplane
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Re: Internal emails reveal that the B777X share the same MAX issues.

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:38 pm

Given the content of internal emails relating just to simulators and training, what do we expect the remaining emails (the majority), including reconstructed deletions, to show? Only MAX training was a problem? How can you build a MAX simulator, without disclosure of all systems and flight characteristics?

The strategy seems to be some personalities and areas of Boeing are expendable. Protect the rest.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 pm

Boeing followed up the MAX sim orders (I think 9 total), with a couple of 777X sim orders. The certification of the TRU built MAX sims was problematic regardless of the MCAS issues which were not icluded in the original specs. There were numerous complaints about the tRU sims but $$$ won out. It was reported that one emember of the Senior Leadership Team as saying they got the TRU sims so cheap it did not make any difference how many issues came up.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Internal emails reveal that the B777X share the same MAX issues.

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:19 pm

dopplerd wrote:
Are you saying that 777X has MCAS system? According to the snippet of the article I can read it seems like there was a problematic supplier for the MAX that also has work on the 777X which is far from the same issues the MAX is experiencing.


It is the underlying organizational problems that led to MCAS being installed (and all the other issues) in the 737MAX. So far only simulator related, but given what we know about Boeing in the aftermath of the 737MAX fiasco, alarm bells should be ringing.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:21 pm

"Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem"

I wouldn't worry about this. Next to 737 MAX, the 777X will be the most researched and tested aircraft ever.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:02 pm

BravoOne wrote:
... It was reported that one emember of the Senior Leadership Team as saying they got the TRU sims so cheap it did not make any difference how many issues came up.


That is quite telling. You seems to be familiar with training. Can you explain how an airline training program works in brief and how does Boeing switching suppliers impact the airline. MAX thread muddled whatever primitive understanding I had and there comes the e-mail dump.

I will explain two airlines as I understood.
Emirates
Mostly In-house, if slots are not available sent some to the UK. Emirates partly owns CAE(India), how does this fit in.

Air India 787
All the initial training was done in Singapore and USA. Most of AI's working capital debt was accrued training crew on 787 and setting up logistics. Would training centers in Singapore/USA cut corners even if AI wants to cut corners.

Why do Lionair/Ethiopian get blamed for their bad training. I am sure they also had a mix of in-house and external training. Are those comments related to NG?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:52 pm

First of all Lyon Air was trained by Airbus under an Airbus contract. Not unheard of. Boeing has actually done Airbus training in Airbus sims owned and operated by Boeing. Out of time right now but maybe a PM tomorrow when the wife isn't calling. Not sure that ET gets blamed for poor training BTW/
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:34 am

Is it flying yet?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:58 am

The title has been updated for clarity.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:13 am

The Telegraph? Really?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:21 am

While most of the MAX reporting has been good (and eye opening), this isn't even worth TP for Cornholio.

Not even a single mention of the simulators being the subject of the messages or the 777 already being FBW (making MCAS a moot point).

Just par the course of the UK rag media I'm afraid.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:26 am

I don't think there's much cause to freak out. The thing isn't even in the air yet. I do think the MAX crisis will cause Boeing to be more cautious with the 777x. They can't afford another major hit to trust in their products.
情報
 
VSMUT
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:08 am

Jouhou wrote:
I don't think there's much cause to freak out. The thing isn't even in the air yet. I do think the MAX crisis will cause Boeing to be more cautious with the 777x. They can't afford another major hit to trust in their products.


The 777X was almost done when the 737MAX was grounded. Rollout was supposed to be just 3 days after the crash with first flight not too long after. There was plenty of time to mess up things during the development. One could hope they are making use of the delays to go through the design.
 
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zeke
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:32 pm

BravoOne wrote:
First of all Lyon Air was trained by Airbus under an Airbus contract. Not unheard of. Boeing has actually done Airbus training in Airbus sims owned and operated by Boeing. Out of time right now but maybe a PM tomorrow when the wife isn't calling. Not sure that ET gets blamed for poor training BTW/


I am not sure this is true. Lion Air (not Lyon which is a large city in France) purchased its Max simulators directly from CAE in Canada.

https://jakartaglobe.id/context/lion-bu ... g-program/

Airbus does have a collaboration with Angkasa Super Service which is part of the Lion Air Group, however I thought that was limited to ATR/A320/A330 training and more related to the CBT training for pilots and mechanics.

Angkasa Super Service and the Angkasa flying academy are part of the Lion Air group. This is different to say Aleton which is a Boeing subsidiary that has some Airbus type simulators in their facilities. Having an Airbus type in the facility does not imply Boeing is providing the training, those simulators are normally dry leased to customer airlines which use lease facilities and use their own instructors.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Staff emails claim Boeing 777X simulator ‘shares Max problem’

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:30 pm

Shortly after the Lion Air accident I was told by the then Diretor of Training, that Airbus was the training organization, not Boeing. The Airbus A320 sims were in Australia and have since been sold. I'm pretty familiar with how sim organiztions work. Boeing probably owns 150+ sims world wide and many of these ar not located in Boeing facilities.

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