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Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:49 pm
by edealinfo
Additional shareholder funding will keep the airline afloat...

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/k ... 61.article

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:31 pm
by UnMAXed
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:26 pm
by ewt340
Their hard products are inconsistent. And they have too much aircraft type for such small fleet.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:24 am
by SpaceshipDC10
Per planespotters, they have:

- A320-200 (13)
- A320neo (2) + (1)
- A330-200 (5)
- A330-800 on order (2)
- B777-300ER (10)

All included that's 30 aircraft plus 3 more to come. Do they really need all these 77Ws? I still remember the time when they only had four 747s or later four A343s and two 777s.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:39 am
by Antarius
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.


The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:40 am
by behramjee
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Per planespotters, they have:

- A320-200 (13)
- A320neo (2) + (1)
- A330-200 (5)
- A330-800 on order (2)
- B777-300ER (10)

All included that's 30 aircraft plus 3 more to come. Do they really need all these 77Ws? I still remember the time when they only had four 747s or later four A343s and two 777s.


Slight error in your post above as KU have 8 A338s on order + 5 A359s + 15 A320Neos. So once all the WBs get delivered, they will have 15 NBs + 23 WBs.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:44 am
by lightsaber
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.

They haven't created a business/tourism draw. Dubai did so by making itself enticing for drinking and for the spouses of those stationed there.

A connecting airline needs O&D. A boutique airline, by definition, does not acheive economy of scale. That means a good fraction of potential traffic must go through hubs. It limits premium traffic (yield).

The fleet needs to be simplified (say A321xLR, only A338s).

Lightsaber

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:14 am
by Devilfish
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
- A330-800 on order (2)

behramjee wrote:
Slight error in your post above as KU have 8 A338s on order

Clarification on this might lend credence to the rumor that another airline is taking over a couple of frames. :scratchchin:

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:33 am
by jbs2886
Devilfish wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
- A330-800 on order (2)

behramjee wrote:
Slight error in your post above as KU have 8 A338s on order

Clarification on this might lend credence to the rumor that another airline is taking over a couple of frames. :scratchchin:


Can you elaborate?

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 am
by Devilfish
jbs2886 wrote:
Can you elaborate?

Well, if KU had indeed cut its order to only two frames, it's reasonable that Airbus would offer the remainder to other carriers...especially if long-lead items for those had already been sourced.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:23 am
by stl07
Antarius wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.


The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

The obvious glaring exception to this is CLT, which is profitable and has a massive amount of connecting traffic (over 70%, maybe even approaching 80%). But I do get your point, it doesn't work everywhere.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:05 am
by juliuswong
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Doesn't matter - they have a couple of oil wells to back up their dumb decisions.

Refreshing their fleet from the battered A300/A310s this decade wasn't a bad call.

I notice 3 x A320s in a hybrid Kuwait - Allegiant livery. What are those about? As things stand, I might end up on one of those on my upcoming DEL-KWI-DEL run - the product will surely be inferior than on KU's owned A320s?

Allegiant for some reason rejected the lease for some ex-SV A320. Thereafter went to Kuwait Airways. 9K-ALE, 9K-ALF and 9K-ALG.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:19 am
by P1aneMad
Their loads and yields on all these B777-300ERs must be truly atrocious!

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:35 am
by behramjee
Devilfish wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Can you elaborate?

Well, if KU had indeed cut its order to only two frames, it's reasonable that Airbus would offer the remainder to other carriers...especially if long-lead items for those had already been sourced.


KU has not cut its order of A338s to 2 frames. The number 2 mentioned above by another user are the number of A338s that are scheduled to be delivered to the airline in 2020 (1 each in Q3 and Q4 respectively).

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:57 am
by behramjee
lightsaber wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.

They haven't created a business/tourism draw. Dubai did so by making itself enticing for drinking and for the spouses of those stationed there.

A connecting airline needs O&D. A boutique airline, by definition, does not acheive economy of scale. That means a good fraction of potential traffic must go through hubs. It limits premium traffic (yield).

The fleet needs to be simplified (say A321xLR, only A338s).

Lightsaber


Agree with with all of the above except your last sentence concerning fleet simplification airplanes cited i.e. A321XLRs + A338s due to the following:

1. A338 is too small of an aircraft for KU to operate year round to LHR, CAI, DAC, MNL, BOM, DEL and JED in particular. In addition, A338 cant operate with a full payload KWI-JFK year round. The ideal long term simplification fleet for KU (purely from a commercial point of view) would be 15 A359s being supported with 15 A321Neos + 5 A320Neos.

2. KU doesnt need the additional range of the A321Neo-XLR for any current or future route as in fact the regular A321Neo-LR can fly up to Manchester nonstop in a cabin layout of 16J (flat beds) + 150Y without much problem even in summer season where the average temperature is 43c on the ground at KWI at 0900am.

3. Due to reasons beyond control, KU needs to have a decent mix of Boeing and Airbus planes - case in point remember in the early 1990s they ordered a bunch load of A343s + AB6s + A310s after 1990-91 Gulf War ended. A couple of years after placing that order, they also got 2 B772As which made no commercial sense but they had to.

4. The problem going forward for KU in the long run will be how to manage a fleet mix that has 23 wide bodies (10 B77Ws + 5 A359s + 8 A338s) being fed with 15 narrow bodies (all A320Neos).

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:32 am
by Spiderguy252
juliuswong wrote:
Allegiant for some reason rejected the lease for some ex-SV A320. Thereafter went to Kuwait Airways. 9K-ALE, 9K-ALF and 9K-ALG.


Are these on short term lease until the (delayed) NEOs arrive? When will they be out of the fleet?

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:33 am
by andrefranca
lightsaber wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.

They haven't created a business/tourism draw. Dubai did so by making itself enticing for drinking and for the spouses of those stationed there.

A connecting airline needs O&D. A boutique airline, by definition, does not acheive economy of scale. That means a good fraction of potential traffic must go through hubs. It limits premium traffic (yield).

The fleet needs to be simplified (say A321xLR, only A338s).

Lightsaber


Of course they have such draconic visa policies that make North Korea look a walk in the park.... they should join the 21th century and issue e-visas for tourists like the UAE, Qatar, Bahrein, Oman and eeeeven saudi do!!!!!!

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:35 am
by lightsaber
behramjee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.

They haven't created a business/tourism draw. Dubai did so by making itself enticing for drinking and for the spouses of those stationed there.

A connecting airline needs O&D. A boutique airline, by definition, does not acheive economy of scale. That means a good fraction of potential traffic must go through hubs. It limits premium traffic (yield).

The fleet needs to be simplified (say A321xLR, only A338s).

Lightsaber


Agree with with all of the above except your last sentence concerning fleet simplification airplanes cited i.e. A321XLRs + A338s due to the following:

1. A338 is too small of an aircraft for KU to operate year round to LHR, CAI, DAC, MNL, BOM, DEL and JED in particular. In addition, A338 cant operate with a full payload KWI-JFK year round. The ideal long term simplification fleet for KU (purely from a commercial point of view) would be 15 A359s being supported with 15 A321Neos + 5 A320Neos.

2. KU doesnt need the additional range of the A321Neo-XLR for any current or future route as in fact the regular A321Neo-LR can fly up to Manchester nonstop in a cabin layout of 16J (flat beds) + 150Y without much problem even in summer season where the average temperature is 43c on the ground at KWI at 0900am.

3. Due to reasons beyond control, KU needs to have a decent mix of Boeing and Airbus planes - case in point remember in the early 1990s they ordered a bunch load of A343s + AB6s + A310s after 1990-91 Gulf War ended. A couple of years after placing that order, they also got 2 B772As which made no commercial sense but they had to.

4. The problem going forward for KU in the long run will be how to manage a fleet mix that has 23 wide bodies (10 B77Ws + 5 A359s + 8 A338s) being fed with 15 narrow bodies (all A320Neos).

Due to the extreme losses, the airline must contract significantly. There is no need for such s large fleet to be flying loss leader missions. Yes, the A320NEO has a place, but many mid haul missions must refuce the cost per flight.

I am for growth, but as Kuwait missed the opportunity to grow O&D, it is time to rationalize.

The new IST, direct flights from India bypassing hubs, and potential new project Sunrise flights reduce the appeal of lesser ME hubs. EY, QR, EK+FZ, Air Arabia are all tough competition. Being the #5 choice is never going to be profitable. There are better investments with oil funds.

Lightsaber

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:26 am
by MoonC
Devilfish wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Can you elaborate?

Well, if KU had indeed cut its order to only two frames, it's reasonable that Airbus would offer the remainder to other carriers...especially if long-lead items for those had already been sourced.


Planespotters.net is not an official source you should take at face value.

They don't even list the A350-900, and they show 3 A320neos when they have 15 in order...

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 am
by Polot
Planespotter only lists planes due for delivery in which they have some basic frame info (eg MSN), which of course usually means frames built or being built but not yet delivered. They don’t list out entire future orders. That is why they are only showing 2 A338s, 1 A320neo, and no A350s at the moment for KU

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:13 pm
by Toinou
Antarius wrote:
The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.


The case of LH shows that it is not necessarily a "a massive city with O&D traffic", it can be a whole country too.
Which is still not a situation that could be replicated in Kuwait.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:53 pm
by Devilfish
behramjee wrote:
KU has not cut its order of A338s to 2 frames. The number 2 mentioned above by another user are the number of A338s that are scheduled to be delivered to the airline in 2020 (1 each in Q3 and Q4 respectively).

Interestingly early for frames slated for delivery in the 2H of 2020 to be out in the open already. Anticipating an intense testing and certification work maybe?


behramjee wrote:
1. A338 is too small of an aircraft for KU to operate year round to LHR, CAI, DAC, MNL, BOM, DEL and JED in particular.

While the 77W may have been the right aircraft during past peak demands, deployment of workers to Kuwait from Manila has recently tapered appreciably.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ixetsuei/ ... [email protected]/


Unless KU really has the market cornered, the upgauge from the A332 they used to operate on the route could have been covered by the A339 (not on order), but the bilaterals and congestion at MNL may have prevented them from mounting additional frequencies. Besides, the 77W is already in their fleet, so they might as well utilize that.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:07 pm
by ewt340
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Per planespotters, they have:

- A320-200 (13)
- A320neo (2) + (1)
- A330-200 (5)
- A330-800 on order (2)
- B777-300ER (10)

All included that's 30 aircraft plus 3 more to come. Do they really need all these 77Ws? I still remember the time when they only had four 747s or later four A343s and two 777s.


Yeah, they fitted their 77W with 9-abreast configurations. It's pretty sparse. Since they already order A338 and A359. Might as well replace them with A351 since it could carry the same amount of seats compared to their 77W.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:19 pm
by Spiderguy252
Devilfish wrote:
Unless KU really has the market cornered, the upgauge from the A332 they used to operate on the route could have been covered by the A339 (not on order), but the bilaterals and congestion at MNL may have prevented them from mounting additional frequencies. Besides, the 77W is already in their fleet, so they might as well utilize that.


MNL is already on the 77W. Daily.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:37 pm
by Devilfish
Spiderguy252 wrote:
MNL is already on the 77W. Daily.

Then, that confirms they actually dominate that market.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:24 pm
by aemoreira1981
I have to wonder if it may make sense to reassign that A359 order to ALAFCO. As for the pilots, they only have 3 crew types: A320, A330, and B777.

The A332s KU has (which are owned by Airbus via the IAFC vehicle) are likely of the 238t variety---could they satisfactorily do a route like KWI-JFK nonstop without a fuel stop? (Currently, KWI-JFK is nonstop.)

As for the G4 NTUs that came from SV, keep in mind that KU has a 10 percent stake in ALAFCO and KU can always fly these until they find a suitable lessee. The planes could still be put up for lease at any time. (ALAFCO also owns 4 of the 10 B77Ws, with another 2 owned by a Chinese lessor; all 10 were direct orders, but 6 were sold and leased back.)

I do have to wonder why KU went with the B77W instead of the B789. But keep in mind that KU had to replace a really old fleet, which included 1 B744, 2 B772s, 3 A310s, 4 A343s, and 3 A320s delivered in 1992. Not too long ago, the average age of the fleet was about 20 years.

Currently, this is the fleet matrix of KU:
A320: 12 (10 ceo, 2 neo)
A332: 5
B77W: 10

27 planes isn't large. But one has to believe that on short-haul, J9 is killing KU. Both KU and J9 serve London, as an example (J9 to LGW), but J9 does it much more cheaply on the A20N rather than the B77W. One has to wonder if it's better to put the ALAFCO-owned frames up for lease and send the A332 to LHR instead.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:46 pm
by ewt340
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I have to wonder if it may make sense to reassign that A359 order to ALAFCO. As for the pilots, they only have 3 crew types: A320, A330, and B777.

The A332s KU has (which are owned by Airbus via the IAFC vehicle) are likely of the 238t variety---could they satisfactorily do a route like KWI-JFK nonstop without a fuel stop? (Currently, KWI-JFK is nonstop.)

As for the G4 NTUs that came from SV, keep in mind that KU has a 10 percent stake in ALAFCO and KU can always fly these until they find a suitable lessee. The planes could still be put up for lease at any time. (ALAFCO also owns 4 of the 10 B77Ws, with another 2 owned by a Chinese lessor; all 10 were direct orders, but 6 were sold and leased back.)

I do have to wonder why KU went with the B77W instead of the B789. But keep in mind that KU had to replace a really old fleet, which included 1 B744, 2 B772s, 3 A310s, 4 A343s, and 3 A320s delivered in 1992. Not too long ago, the average age of the fleet was about 20 years.

Currently, this is the fleet matrix of KU:
A320: 12 (10 ceo, 2 neo)
A332: 5
B77W: 10

27 planes isn't large. But one has to believe that on short-haul, J9 is killing KU. Both KU and J9 serve London, as an example (J9 to LGW), but J9 does it much more cheaply on the A20N rather than the B77W. One has to wonder if it's better to put the ALAFCO-owned frames up for lease and send the A332 to LHR instead.


I think A330-800 and A350-900 have common type rating between them. There are lots of commonality for these planes, and it's one of the main factor when Airbus design A350 cockpit.
Same goes for A320neo, it's really easy for pilots to transition from one airbus plane to the other.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:26 pm
by Spiderguy252
The 3rd NEO 9K-AKM is due to enter the fleet on 1 Feb 2020. Remains to be seen if that will spell the end of one of the G4 320s.

Also wonder why this particular frame was sunbathing at TLS from October when the next one AKN was delivered without hitch.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:43 pm
by juliuswong
Spiderguy252 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Allegiant for some reason rejected the lease for some ex-SV A320. Thereafter went to Kuwait Airways. 9K-ALE, 9K-ALF and 9K-ALG.


Are these on short term lease until the (delayed) NEOs arrive? When will they be out of the fleet?

Yes, stop gap measures for A320neo delay. At the moment, there is no timeline when these three A320ceo will leave.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ery-delays

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:16 am
by strfyr51
Antarius wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.


The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

So? Exactly what lesson would that be? If those hubs were such a great loss? then other carriers would have been on them like hot cakes! United De-hubbed CLE many years ago S-CO had it as their Hub, But they Merged with UA and the Hub became a Moot point in favor of ORD, STL was TWA's Hub before the merger with American.
American didn't keep the hub as it didn't for into their plans. If those Hubs were all That? Then JBLU, WN, AS F9 or NK might have swooped in there and made a killing. BUT? They didn't and probably won't. Why? Because they need a deep pocket major to prime the pump in passengers so they might go in and try to skim some of the cream.
But they're NOT going in to make the investment themselves... Are they?

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:49 pm
by peterinlisbon
Luckily for them, they don't have many aircraft.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:06 am
by TObound
Even with the political need to split orders between Airbus and Boeing, this is still such a bonkers fleet strategy. So many questions?

1) What role does the 359 play when they have such lightly loaded 77Ws that could probably go really far?

2) Is there really no role for the 321NEO for them? Why so many 320NEOs? Given a lot of their destinations, it's not like they are running a frequency oriented operation that needs smaller aircraft.

3) Given the need to split buy, why the heck would they choose the 338? Why not get smaller aircraft from Boeing? 788s and 789s. And then 359s and 35Js from Airbus for their larger aircraft to match their range and capacity requirements.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:17 am
by cedarjet
Enjoy the armchair airline manager attempts to help save KU from themselves but the airline isn’t run for profit in the first place, and is also probably quite overstaffed, a retirement home for ex military guys, minor royals, relatives of government ministers etc.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:20 am
by cedarjet
PS stop in Ireland on the KWI JFK isn’t for fuel but because US authorities don’t trust KWI security. They will no doubt refuel while on the deck but the reason they’re there is for all the passengers to go through security. PIA do the same in Manchester, used to anyway.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:28 am
by Spiderguy252
cedarjet wrote:
PS stop in Ireland on the KWI JFK isn’t for fuel but because US authorities don’t trust KWI security. They will no doubt refuel while on the deck but the reason they’re there is for all the passengers to go through security. PIA do the same in Manchester, used to anyway.


That's history now though.

KWI-JFK-KWI is direct both ways.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:56 am
by TObound
cedarjet wrote:
Enjoy the armchair airline manager attempts to help save KU from themselves but the airline isn’t run for profit in the first place, and is also probably quite overstaffed, a retirement home for ex military guys, minor royals, relatives of government ministers etc.


Even if that's true, why the random fleet mix?

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:22 pm
by Devilfish
behramjee wrote:
In addition, A338 cant operate with a full payload KWI-JFK year round. The ideal long term simplification fleet for KU (purely from a commercial point of view) would be 15 A359s being supported with 15 A321Neos + 5 A320Neos.

Didn't they order the 251T version? The ~$50M price delta from the A359 plus Airbus' ownership of KU's existing A332s and their current fiscal position probably swung the decision in favor of the A338.


aemoreira1981 wrote:
The A332s KU has (which are owned by Airbus via the IAFC vehicle) are likely of the 238t variety---could they satisfactorily do a route like KWI-JFK nonstop without a fuel stop? (Currently, KWI-JFK is nonstop.)

KWI-JFK is only 5520nm on Great Circle...taking headwinds, EDTO and airways currently open to them into account -- doable by the A338 based on Airbus' blurb (jury is still out), but especially if they could upgrade to the 251 tonner when possible via a paper change.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KWI-JFK&MS=wls&DU=nm

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:11 pm
by behramjee
Devilfish wrote:
behramjee wrote:
In addition, A338 cant operate with a full payload KWI-JFK year round. The ideal long term simplification fleet for KU (purely from a commercial point of view) would be 15 A359s being supported with 15 A321Neos + 5 A320Neos.

Didn't they order the 251T version? The ~$50M price delta from the A359 plus Airbus' ownership of KU's existing A332s and their current fiscal position probably swung the decision in favor of the A338.


aemoreira1981 wrote:
The A332s KU has (which are owned by Airbus via the IAFC vehicle) are likely of the 238t variety---could they satisfactorily do a route like KWI-JFK nonstop without a fuel stop? (Currently, KWI-JFK is nonstop.)

KWI-JFK is only 5520nm on Great Circle...taking headwinds, EDTO and airways currently open to them into account -- doable by the A338 based on Airbus' blurb (jury is still out), but especially if they could upgrade to the 251 tonner when possible via a paper change.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=KWI-JFK&MS=wls&DU=nm


An A338 can fly JFK-KWI easily year round but not KWI-JFK.

Remember when KU departs KWI for JFK its 0900am locally and in summer the average temperature on the ground in KWI is 43c at that time which effects take off payload performance. On many days, their B77W too suffers a small payload hit on KWI-JFK. Also note that KU's operational ground rules average pax weight with luggage included is 120kg per pax and not 105/110kg (used by competitors).

As far as why KU ordered the A338, the reasons you provided above are not true in terms of this decision of theirs.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:59 pm
by Antarius
strfyr51 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.


The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

So? Exactly what lesson would that be? If those hubs were such a great loss? then other carriers would have been on them like hot cakes! United De-hubbed CLE many years ago S-CO had it as their Hub, But they Merged with UA and the Hub became a Moot point in favor of ORD, STL was TWA's Hub before the merger with American.
American didn't keep the hub as it didn't for into their plans. If those Hubs were all That? Then JBLU, WN, AS F9 or NK might have swooped in there and made a killing. BUT? They didn't and probably won't. Why? Because they need a deep pocket major to prime the pump in passengers so they might go in and try to skim some of the cream.
But they're NOT going in to make the investment themselves... Are they?


You managed to completely twist my point into the exact opposite of what I was saying.

The message is that connecting hubs with little O&D traffic like CLE and STL are not sustainable. KWI is basically a CLE, trying to build a giant connecting hub there will fail, especially with EK nearby and QR seemingly with unlimited pockets.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:05 pm
by cedarjet
Antarius wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

So? Exactly what lesson would that be? If those hubs were such a great loss? then other carriers would have been on them like hot cakes! United De-hubbed CLE many years ago S-CO had it as their Hub, But they Merged with UA and the Hub became a Moot point in favor of ORD, STL was TWA's Hub before the merger with American.
American didn't keep the hub as it didn't for into their plans. If those Hubs were all That? Then JBLU, WN, AS F9 or NK might have swooped in there and made a killing. BUT? They didn't and probably won't. Why? Because they need a deep pocket major to prime the pump in passengers so they might go in and try to skim some of the cream.
But they're NOT going in to make the investment themselves... Are they?


You managed to completely twist my point into the exact opposite of what I was saying.

The message is that connecting hubs with little O&D traffic like CLE and STL are not sustainable. KWI is basically a CLE, trying to build a giant connecting hub there will fail, especially with EK nearby and QR seemingly with unlimited pockets.

KU aren’t trying to build a connecting hub. They’ll accept transit passengers as a subsidy but the airline is not run for commercial gain, its to safely fly people in and out of Kuwait for business etc, and to provide a retirement home for ex military officers and minor princes who are too dumb or venal to be trusted with a gig at the offices of the sovereign wealth fund. Anyone who thinks they’re trying to compete with Emirates is out of their mind.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:06 pm
by Antarius
stl07 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
UnMAXed wrote:
So even after the state essentially shut Wataniya Airways down they still managed this astonishing loss.
They even make EY look good by comparison.


The issue is, every country wants to have an EK or SQ, despite it making no sense. Save for EK (which was instrumental in the rise of Dubai), basically every major "global" carrier is based in a massive city with O&D traffic. SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, NH, LH, the US3 etc. all are hubbed out of cities that have inherent demand that supplements connecting traffic.

The lessons learned from UA dehubbing CLE and AA dropping STL have clearly not been learned.

The obvious glaring exception to this is CLT, which is profitable and has a massive amount of connecting traffic (over 70%, maybe even approaching 80%). But I do get your point, it doesn't work everywhere.


Good point - yes, CLT has been very successful . It has similar benefits to ATL, being conveniently located between large and affluent areas of the country. CLT does have a large banking industry, so they do have business O&D, albeit less than other major cities.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:36 am
by ewt340
TObound wrote:
Even with the political need to split orders between Airbus and Boeing, this is still such a bonkers fleet strategy. So many questions?

1) What role does the 359 play when they have such lightly loaded 77Ws that could probably go really far?

2) Is there really no role for the 321NEO for them? Why so many 320NEOs? Given a lot of their destinations, it's not like they are running a frequency oriented operation that needs smaller aircraft.

3) Given the need to split buy, why the heck would they choose the 338? Why not get smaller aircraft from Boeing? 788s and 789s. And then 359s and 35Js from Airbus for their larger aircraft to match their range and capacity requirements.


Kuwait City isn't as big or famous as other gulf cities, so naturally the demand are way smaller. And they don't seem to capture much of the Europe-Asia traffic as well. So for Kuwait Airways, smaller aircraft seems to be the most logical choice. That could be the sole reason why A320neo was chosen to be the backbone for their regional network.

As for A338. They already operated A330-200, so transition and operational costs would be kept at lower range. And since A338 and A359 have the same type ratings I believe. It's a big plus for them. Add A320neo on the mix and you've got a winner.

Since they only order 8 A338 and 5 A359. It would be quite expensive for them to mix and match B787 into their operations. It's not like B777-300ER and B787 have the same type ratings or much similarity.
They don't plan to order B777X either. So what's B787 would provide them with?

Once B777-300ER got old and retired. They would go on and became all airbus operators. This would help them to keep the cost way down.
Also, they probably got a really nice discount for their A338 since Airbus is struggling to sell this model.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:54 am
by kaitak
ewt340 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Even with the political need to split orders between Airbus and Boeing, this is still such a bonkers fleet strategy. So many questions?

1) What role does the 359 play when they have such lightly loaded 77Ws that could probably go really far?

2) Is there really no role for the 321NEO for them? Why so many 320NEOs? Given a lot of their destinations, it's not like they are running a frequency oriented operation that needs smaller aircraft.

3) Given the need to split buy, why the heck would they choose the 338? Why not get smaller aircraft from Boeing? 788s and 789s. And then 359s and 35Js from Airbus for their larger aircraft to match their range and capacity requirements.


Once B777-300ER got old and retired. They would go on and became all airbus operators. This would help them to keep the cost way down.
Also, they probably got a really nice discount for their A338 since Airbus is struggling to sell this model.


Yes, but the 777-300ERs are very new - only 3-4 years old I think and many years ahead of them; the decision to take on ten of these, when no more than half would have been appropriate, must be a key factor in their financial straits. I don't know what loads they're getting to JFK, but outside LHR and probably MNL (not a high yield route), there can't be much other routes they can use it on; regionally, CAI and BOM might require it the odd time. Getting rid of five of these (at least) would be a good start. They really need to rationalise their fleet; they will need to keep 777s for political reasons, but after that, A330-800s (no A350s required) and A320/321Neos should complete their fleet.

The sad thing about KAC is that it could have been so different; they have just ambled along, without much ambition or vision for a long time now, while their Gulf neighbours have powered ahead. Kuwait is not exactly poor (to put it mildly), but that doesn't mean KU should be allowed to remain a basket case. Also, Kuwait's visa system will probably need to change if the country wants its airline to stop costing it so much.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:27 pm
by AF022
cedarjet wrote:
KU aren’t trying to build a connecting hub. They’ll accept transit passengers as a subsidy but the airline is not run for commercial gain, its to safely fly people in and out of Kuwait for business etc, and to provide a retirement home for ex military officers and minor princes who are too dumb or venal to be trusted with a gig at the offices of the sovereign wealth fund. Anyone who thinks they’re trying to compete with Emirates is out of their mind.


Laughed out loud at this, but probably realistic.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:32 pm
by Polot
ewt340 wrote:
Since they only order 8 A338 and 5 A359. It would be quite expensive for them to mix and match B787 into their operations. It's not like B777-300ER and B787 have the same type ratings or much similarity.
They don't plan to order B777X either. So what's B787 would provide them with?

The 777 and 787 have a common type type rating and can be flown by the same group of pilots just like the A330 and A350 can.

But I agree 787s make no sense for KU at this time. Although I suppose 787-10s could work as a regional workhorse with more capacity than the A330s (and the A350s on long haul routes), but not sure how interested KU is in all of that.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:07 am
by airway1
Just a background on Kuwait airport: it handles around 18 million passengers. KU for a national airline has a small percentage of that sum. If not mistake KU handles around 35% of total passengers.

Keep in mind Qatar flies 12 dailies into Kuwait with a mix of 320/787/350/777. Emirates has 7 dailies with all 777. Most regional airlines see that there is an opportunity to capture passengers from Kuwait. KU also competes with Jazeera

KU has a network that is in demand but also has a policy of discounting premier classes to certain industries that abuse the benefit. Staff and family get huge discounts. Lots of abuse after all it is government subsidiZed

Overall love the new terminal and planes that make it worth flying

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:45 am
by B777LRF
The purpose of KU never was, and never will be, making a profit. It's a political animal created to secure lines of communication which is 100% under the control of the ruling family. It's also a vehicle for employment of well-connected, and sometimes not so well-connected, locals. Also used to maintain international relations via the purchase of high-value items, such as aircraft, simulators and engines. And, last but not least, like it's brethren airline on a small island to its south, utilised by staff as a fantastic generator of wasta.

Kuwait is swimming on an ocean of oil and gas, and their sovereign wealth fund is so flush with cash it's almost ridiculous. Money, as they say, is not an object.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:27 pm
by ewt340
Polot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Since they only order 8 A338 and 5 A359. It would be quite expensive for them to mix and match B787 into their operations. It's not like B777-300ER and B787 have the same type ratings or much similarity.
They don't plan to order B777X either. So what's B787 would provide them with?

The 777 and 787 have a common type type rating and can be flown by the same group of pilots just like the A330 and A350 can.

But I agree 787s make no sense for KU at this time. Although I suppose 787-10s could work as a regional workhorse with more capacity than the A330s (and the A350s on long haul routes), but not sure how interested KU is in all of that.


Ooops, my mistake.

I don't think B787-10 would make sense. Since it's a big aircraft for regional routes. A350-900 got tons of range with the same capacity, it could flew to Australia and the US easily, and on shorter routes, they could carry heavy cargo.

If I'm not mistaken, kuwait like other countries around gulf region import lots of foods and stuff for their daily need. So cargo is an important thing for them. Might be one of the main reason to why they need the range and capability of A330-800neo in the first place.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:29 pm
by ewt340
B777LRF wrote:
The purpose of KU never was, and never will be, making a profit. It's a political animal created to secure lines of communication which is 100% under the control of the ruling family. It's also a vehicle for employment of well-connected, and sometimes not so well-connected, locals. Also used to maintain international relations via the purchase of high-value items, such as aircraft, simulators and engines. And, last but not least, like it's brethren airline on a small island to its south, utilised by staff as a fantastic generator of wasta.

Kuwait is swimming on an ocean of oil and gas, and their sovereign wealth fund is so flush with cash it's almost ridiculous. Money, as they say, is not an object.


Well at some point, losing such amount of money for every single aircraft they owned would be to much for them.

I guess the only thing they could do is to use more efficient smaller aircraft to minimize the lost and increase load factor.

Re: Kuwait Airways lost an avg. of $17M for "every" aircraft in its fleet (for its financial year)

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:28 pm
by cedarjet
ewt340 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
The purpose of KU never was, and never will be, making a profit. It's a political animal created to secure lines of communication which is 100% under the control of the ruling family. It's also a vehicle for employment of well-connected, and sometimes not so well-connected, locals. Also used to maintain international relations via the purchase of high-value items, such as aircraft, simulators and engines. And, last but not least, like it's brethren airline on a small island to its south, utilised by staff as a fantastic generator of wasta.

Kuwait is swimming on an ocean of oil and gas, and their sovereign wealth fund is so flush with cash it's almost ridiculous. Money, as they say, is not an object.


Well at some point, losing such amount of money for every single aircraft they owned would be to much for them.

I guess the only thing they could do is to use more efficient smaller aircraft to minimize the lost and increase load factor.

You need to reread the post you’re replying to. The national airline losing a few mill is a rounding error for Kuwait.