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mercure1
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ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:38 pm

The two high-quality airlines seek to get closer.

Suspect the recent news SQ wants to fly Tokyo-New York is related.


TOKYO -- All Nippon Airways enters a comprehensive tie-up with Singapore Airlines as early as this month, joining forces with Star Alliance partner to fend off competition in an increasingly crowded Asian market.

This type of partnership, known as a joint venture in the aviation industry, will go beyond the carriers' current code-sharing agreement to let them coordinate schedules and fares. The arrangement is slated to launch around 2021 once the airlines receive the necessary antitrust exemptions.

The tie-up marks the ANA Holdings unit's first joint venture with an Asian partner, and its third overall after agreements with United Airlines and Lufthansa.


https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Transp ... rket-grows
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... ht-options
mercure f-wtcc
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:25 pm

I think this could bring major changes to both airlines NYC ops.

What we know already,
ANA flies to JFK
SQ flies to EWR and JFK (via FRA)
UA has a fortress hub at EWR
SQ has applied to fly SIN-NRT-NYC

What can happen; (some of these are unlikely)
- SQ consolidates to EWR and begins SIN-NRT-EWR
- ANA begins to fly to EWR and SQ takes over NRT-JFK while dropping FRA
- SQ drops FRA-JFK in favor of NRT-JFK
 
ITSTours
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:38 pm

Interesting. More related to JL-MH deal I guess.
 
ITSTours
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:40 pm

https://trafficnews.jp/post/93085 (article in Japanese)

Indeed. The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:58 pm

Possibly opens an opportunity for a potential 3-way SQ/NH/VA JV when the existing SQ/VA partnership expires at the end of Q3 2021.
 
J343
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:16 am

Will this move open the oppirtunity for CX and JL to form a JV for HKG-Japan flights? They have extensive codesharing for most routes to and from Japan and HK vice versa.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:21 am

J343 wrote:
Will this move open the oppirtunity for CX and JL to form a JV for HKG-Japan flights? They have extensive codesharing for most routes to and from Japan and HK vice versa.

Believe they already have a JV.

Michael
 
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Tabito
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:53 am

eamondzhang wrote:
J343 wrote:
Will this move open the oppirtunity for CX and JL to form a JV for HKG-Japan flights? They have extensive codesharing for most routes to and from Japan and HK vice versa.

Believe they already have a JV.

Michael


Not JV, only code share and FFP agreement between CX/JL/KA.

Current JV: Trans Pacific AA/JL and Trans Siberian AY/BA/IB/JL
Ongoing JV: PRC-Japan JL/MU, Japan-Malaysia JL/MH
Pending JV Hawaii-Japan HA/JL, Indonesia-Japan GA/JL or NH
 
YYZORD
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:14 am

I can see NH flying to EWR but it would probably be with their 789 as the premium route is always better at JFK with their 773
 
yonahleung
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:33 am

J343 wrote:
Will this move open the oppirtunity for CX and JL to form a JV for HKG-Japan flights? They have extensive codesharing for most routes to and from Japan and HK vice versa.

Competition authorities would not allow. If CX and JL forms a JV there will be a monopoly on most HKG-Japan flights.
 
SYDSpotter
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:53 am

With SQ and NH controlling more than 2/3 of the current non-stop services between SIN and TYO, would competition authorities approve this?
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:32 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
UA has a fortress hub at EWR

EWR isn't remotely a "fortress" for UA, or anyone else



Nicknuzzii wrote:
What can happen; (some of these are unlikely)
- SQ consolidates to EWR and begins SIN-NRT-EWR
- ANA begins to fly to EWR and SQ takes over NRT-JFK while dropping FRA
- SQ drops FRA-JFK in favor of NRT-JFK

If by some, you mean "all," then sure.

FRA by SQ's own admission has been significantly profitable for them, hence its survival for decades despite it no longer being an operational necessity.
Barring some radical market change, why would they bother with any of the above?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:52 am

SYDSpotter wrote:
With SQ and NH controlling more than 2/3 of the current non-stop services between SIN and TYO, would competition authorities approve this?

it gets even worse when you look at secondary Japanese gateways
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mmo
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:36 am

The FRA-JFK flight for SQ is a money maker. I flew it several times when I worked for SQ and it was always full in J/F and Y had a consistently high load. In addition, on the 744, a significant amount of cargo could be loaded. At that time, the flight was the first European arrival in JFK and always had a few "high profile" paxs on the aircraft. Eliminating the JFK turn would require a significant retiming of the return FRA-SIN flight which does quite well with the current timings.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:06 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
UA has a fortress hub at EWR

EWR isn't remotely a "fortress" for UA, or anyone else



Nicknuzzii wrote:
What can happen; (some of these are unlikely)
- SQ consolidates to EWR and begins SIN-NRT-EWR
- ANA begins to fly to EWR and SQ takes over NRT-JFK while dropping FRA
- SQ drops FRA-JFK in favor of NRT-JFK

If by some, you mean "all," then sure.

FRA by SQ's own admission has been significantly profitable for them, hence its survival for decades despite it no longer being an operational necessity.
Barring some radical market change, why would they bother with any of the above?


If 65-70% isn’t a fortress hub I don’t know what is.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:07 am

mmo wrote:
The FRA-JFK flight for SQ is a money maker. I flew it several times when I worked for SQ and it was always full in J/F and Y had a consistently high load. In addition, on the 744, a significant amount of cargo could be loaded. At that time, the flight was the first European arrival in JFK and always had a few "high profile" paxs on the aircraft. Eliminating the JFK turn would require a significant retiming of the return FRA-SIN flight which does quite well with the current timings.


The FRA-SIN flight wouldn’t need to retimed at all, it would arrive FRA around 0630 and depart at the same time it does now 1130? Arrive SIN 0630 like most of the other European services for SQ, they would save 1 aircraft without the JFK leg.
 
United1
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:51 pm

YYZORD wrote:
I can see NH flying to EWR but it would probably be with their 789 as the premium route is always better at JFK with their 773


NH already flies to EWR via their JV with UA...unless the JV wants to add more capacity to the NYC market there is no need to.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
mmo
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:49 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:

The FRA-SIN flight wouldn’t need to retimed at all, it would arrive FRA around 0630 and depart at the same time it does now 1130? Arrive SIN 0630 like most of the other European services for SQ, they would save 1 aircraft without the JFK leg.


And it would also give up the revenue from the flight? Believe me, after working for SQ for over 10+ years, if they aren't making money on a flight, they will drop it like a hot potato.

Plus it takes 2 aircraft to do the rotation. The FRA-JFK aircraft sits for the better part of the day. Maintenance is performed so, there is some rationale for having the aircraft sit at JFK. It departs or used to depart around 11pm while the new FRA-JFK was landing and being turned.

When a 744 operated the flight a good 35+ tonnes of cargo would be uploaded and the revenue generated with the premium cabins was something SQ would be reluctant to give up.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
J343
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:54 pm

yonahleung wrote:
J343 wrote:
Will this move open the oppirtunity for CX and JL to form a JV for HKG-Japan flights? They have extensive codesharing for most routes to and from Japan and HK vice versa.

Competition authorities would not allow. If CX and JL forms a JV there will be a monopoly on most HKG-Japan flights.


Wouldn't that be the same case for SIN-Japan flights if NH and SQ pushes through with their JV?
 
paperwastage
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:43 pm

Doesn't UA and NH have a JV on usa-asia(excluding China)? How would a JV between SQ+NH play out for SIN-TYO-NYC?

From my previous post on this: I could be wrong, can someone pull up the travel stats for NYC-TYO city pair?

Even with the new HND slots, it was UA adding EWR-HND (772) starting March 2020 along with existing EWR-NRT (777-300)

NH and ANA both operate double daily out of JFK (one to NRF, one to HND), so a total of 6 after UA's addition, all 777s

I don't think there's enough traffic to add a 7th, even if NH+JL operate the ultra premium heavy configs (212seats on NH and 244 on JL, 350+276 on UA 77W+772)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:42 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
If 65-70% isn’t a fortress hub I don’t know what is.

Well yeah, we established those last five words previously.

UA doesn't have anywhere near the leverage to control the pricepoint or flows of that market, due to the combined impact of numerous foreign flags, the buildups of NK and F9, and proximity to competitive gateways that can/do duplicate services.

EWR is many things to UA, but a "fortress" it is not.

In fact, that's the downside of UA's generous hub layout; global cities with huge corporate demand, but huge competition in return.... about the closest thing it has to a fortress in a single gateway is IAH, and it's still not much of one as a city/metro, due to the competing LoCo domestic gateway right down the proverbial road.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:50 am

paperwastage wrote:
Doesn't UA and NH have a JV on usa-asia(excluding China)? How would a JV between SQ+NH play out for SIN-TYO-NYC?

From my previous post on this: I could be wrong, can someone pull up the travel stats for NYC-TYO city pair?

Even with the new HND slots, it was UA adding EWR-HND (772) starting March 2020 along with existing EWR-NRT (777-300)

NH and ANA both operate double daily out of JFK (one to NRF, one to HND), so a total of 6 after UA's addition, all 777s

I don't think there's enough traffic to add a 7th, even if NH+JL operate the ultra premium heavy configs (212seats on NH and 244 on JL, 350+276 on UA 77W+772)


From the post above:

The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.
 
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Antaras
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:20 am

ANA also has stakes in Vietnam Airlines.
What are ANA purposes by partnering (and absorbing) bunches of ASEAN carriers from different alliances (VN from Skyteam, SQ from Star) :?: :confused:
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:23 am

This type of partnership, known as a joint venture in the aviation industry, will go beyond the carriers' current code-sharing agreement to let them coordinate schedules and fares. The arrangement is slated to launch around 2021 once the airlines receive the necessary antitrust exemptions.


2021 is the same year SQ's JV with VA expires. Assumably at the end of Q3 (October).
https://australianaviation.com.au/2016/ ... -alliance/

Speculation Time: Per earlier post, I wonder if this evolves into a 3-way SQ/NH/VA JV, or remains a separate SQ/NH JV with the SQ/VA JV being renewed, or if it replaces the SQ/VA JV.
 
paperwastage
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:49 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
paperwastage wrote:
Doesn't UA and NH have a JV on usa-asia(excluding China)? How would a JV between SQ+NH play out for SIN-TYO-NYC?

From my previous post on this: I could be wrong, can someone pull up the travel stats for NYC-TYO city pair?

Even with the new HND slots, it was UA adding EWR-HND (772) starting March 2020 along with existing EWR-NRT (777-300)

NH and ANA both operate double daily out of JFK (one to NRF, one to HND), so a total of 6 after UA's addition, all 777s

I don't think there's enough traffic to add a 7th, even if NH+JL operate the ultra premium heavy configs (212seats on NH and 244 on JL, 350+276 on UA 77W+772)


From the post above:

The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.

True, but rumors for NYC-TYO doesn't fit this Asia/Oceania JV

And which other carrier has JVs that overlap with other JVs?

LH has JVs east(UA) and west (ANA), but I doubt there's major overlapping traffic (someone flies from usa-europe-asia maybe excluding India)?
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:16 am

paperwastage wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
paperwastage wrote:
Doesn't UA and NH have a JV on usa-asia(excluding China)? How would a JV between SQ+NH play out for SIN-TYO-NYC?

From my previous post on this: I could be wrong, can someone pull up the travel stats for NYC-TYO city pair?

Even with the new HND slots, it was UA adding EWR-HND (772) starting March 2020 along with existing EWR-NRT (777-300)

NH and ANA both operate double daily out of JFK (one to NRF, one to HND), so a total of 6 after UA's addition, all 777s

I don't think there's enough traffic to add a 7th, even if NH+JL operate the ultra premium heavy configs (212seats on NH and 244 on JL, 350+276 on UA 77W+772)


From the post above:

The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.

True, but rumors for NYC-TYO doesn't fit this Asia/Oceania JV

And which other carrier has JVs that overlap with other JVs?

LH has JVs east(UA) and west (ANA), but I doubt there's major overlapping traffic (someone flies from usa-europe-asia maybe excluding India)?


I think ANA - UA covers all Japan - USA flights so I’m guessing the only to include SQ’s Japan - USA traffic would be to have SQ join that JV. Seems like it would be a cold day in hell for that to happen.
 
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EightyFour
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:08 am

ITSTours wrote:
https://trafficnews.jp/post/93085 (article in Japanese)

Indeed. The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.


Is there a lot of Australia-Japan traffic connecting over Singapore?
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:06 am

EightyFour wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
https://trafficnews.jp/post/93085 (article in Japanese)

Indeed. The JV does not include US. The scope involves Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, and Australia.


Is there a lot of Australia-Japan traffic connecting over Singapore?


SQ traditionally carries VA passengers between AU and Japan via SIN as part of the SQ/VA alliance (JV). This has slowly been changing with the recently signed NH/VA codeshare agreement in anticipation of the upcoming new HND flights from VA and NH.
 
Ishrion
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:56 am

 
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Tabito
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:37 am

 
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Tabito
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:53 pm

Image
Image
Image
 
jayunited
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:52 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
paperwastage wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

From the post above:


True, but rumors for NYC-TYO doesn't fit this Asia/Oceania JV

And which other carrier has JVs that overlap with other JVs?

LH has JVs east(UA) and west (ANA), but I doubt there's major overlapping traffic (someone flies from usa-europe-asia maybe excluding India)?


I think ANA - UA covers all Japan - USA flights so I’m guessing the only to include SQ’s Japan - USA traffic would be to have SQ join that JV. Seems like it would be a cold day in hell for that to happen.



There is a great article on Flight Global's website on this SQ, NH proposed joint venture.

According to Yuji Hirako the CEO of NH one potential wrinkle in the proposed JV between the two carriers is NH's JV with UA. That JV covers UA's nonstops from the US to Singapore but more importantly the JV covers NH's flights from Tokyo to SIN. Hirako states the current language in NH's JV with UA it is exclusive between the the two airlines meaning SQ under the current terms can not be apart of any JV between Tokyo and Singapore. SQ wants to leverage NH's strong domestic network, while NH was to capitalize on SQ's (and the low cost carriers) strong Australia, Indonesia, and Indian networks but these carriers also want the JV to cover TYO-SIN-TYO.

https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/a ... 90.article

My question is with because UA's JV with NH is exclusive and includes Tokyo (I'm assuming that means both HND and NRT) how does NH get UA to come back to the negotiating table to perhaps talk about excluding both UA's NH's flights to SIN? From the article it is clear both SQ and NH want TYO-SIN-TYO included in their JV how do they go about it with UA standing in the way.

Also the article mentions SQ's newly granted rights to operate flights between Tokyo and New York. SQ's CEO made it clear no final decision has been made as to if SQ will actually exercise those rights. I'm sure NH is getting an ear full from JV partner UA whose probably in full opposition to SQ entering this market. Does NH have any leverage here because it seems like they will be stuck in the middle of a bitter useless feud between SQ and UA. UA with our two daily nonstops SFO-SIN-SFO probably could amend the JV and release NH from the exclusivity terms. If UA were inclined to amend the terms of their JV with NH what would UA ask for in return from NH? Could UA's price be that NH firmly request (or demand) their newly JV partner SQ stay out of the TYO-New York market? Although there is little to no chance of a NH/SQ/UA JV if UA were to put this ridiculous feud behind them UA could perhaps benefit from having a closer non-JV relationship with SQ.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: ANA - Singapore Airlines to form JV

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:34 am

jayunited wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
paperwastage wrote:
True, but rumors for NYC-TYO doesn't fit this Asia/Oceania JV

And which other carrier has JVs that overlap with other JVs?

LH has JVs east(UA) and west (ANA), but I doubt there's major overlapping traffic (someone flies from usa-europe-asia maybe excluding India)?


I think ANA - UA covers all Japan - USA flights so I’m guessing the only to include SQ’s Japan - USA traffic would be to have SQ join that JV. Seems like it would be a cold day in hell for that to happen.



There is a great article on Flight Global's website on this SQ, NH proposed joint venture.

According to Yuji Hirako the CEO of NH one potential wrinkle in the proposed JV between the two carriers is NH's JV with UA. That JV covers UA's nonstops from the US to Singapore but more importantly the JV covers NH's flights from Tokyo to SIN. Hirako states the current language in NH's JV with UA it is exclusive between the the two airlines meaning SQ under the current terms can not be apart of any JV between Tokyo and Singapore. SQ wants to leverage NH's strong domestic network, while NH was to capitalize on SQ's (and the low cost carriers) strong Australia, Indonesia, and Indian networks but these carriers also want the JV to cover TYO-SIN-TYO.

https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/a ... 90.article

My question is with because UA's JV with NH is exclusive and includes Tokyo (I'm assuming that means both HND and NRT) how does NH get UA to come back to the negotiating table to perhaps talk about excluding both UA's NH's flights to SIN? From the article it is clear both SQ and NH want TYO-SIN-TYO included in their JV how do they go about it with UA standing in the way.

Also the article mentions SQ's newly granted rights to operate flights between Tokyo and New York. SQ's CEO made it clear no final decision has been made as to if SQ will actually exercise those rights. I'm sure NH is getting an ear full from JV partner UA whose probably in full opposition to SQ entering this market. Does NH have any leverage here because it seems like they will be stuck in the middle of a bitter useless feud between SQ and UA. UA with our two daily nonstops SFO-SIN-SFO probably could amend the JV and release NH from the exclusivity terms. If UA were inclined to amend the terms of their JV with NH what would UA ask for in return from NH? Could UA's price be that NH firmly request (or demand) their newly JV partner SQ stay out of the TYO-New York market? Although there is little to no chance of a NH/SQ/UA JV if UA were to put this ridiculous feud behind them UA could perhaps benefit from having a closer non-JV relationship with SQ.


Where does UA’s hatred of SQ stem from?

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