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readytotaxi
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BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:07 am

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817Dreamliiner
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:12 am

Hmmm and its G-XWBD again... ( the one Airbus bent up in the paint hanger).
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747fly
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:12 am

Heady landing - needs to be check/repaired, then will position back to LHR.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:48 pm

According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:02 pm

N14AZ wrote:
According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?

And I love how some started right away with asking if it was a write-off... Obviously not an a.net exclusivity.
 
WesYan
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:46 pm

G-XWBD again. Seems like this aircraft can’t catch a break.
 
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AECM
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:16 pm

It's on its way to LHR i think (BAW164F)

https://fr24.com/BAW164F/2399a3e4
 
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scbriml
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:26 pm

AECM wrote:
It's on its way to LHR i think (BAW164F)

https://fr24.com/BAW164F/2399a3e4


Probably a special condition ferry flight back to LHR prior to scrapping in the BA mainentance area. :duck:
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Erebus
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:32 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?

And I love how some started right away with asking if it was a write-off... Obviously not an a.net exclusivity.


Sure. Parts of it. The broken bits, of course. :white:
 
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zeke
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:37 pm

WesYan wrote:
G-XWBD again. Seems like this aircraft can’t catch a break.


They are trying really hard with a heavy landing to give it a break, just not hard enough this time ;)
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GZM1
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:23 pm

It’s all in the registration, it’s there for all to see: G-XWBD = Gee-Xtra Weight, Body Damaged. It is obvious to every superstitious traveler that the plane needs to be re-registered.
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ClipperYankee
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:30 pm

I'm having deja vu. Didn't another aircraft (not sure of the type) recently have a ceiling panel come down on landing? I want to say I remember it being a Latam bird? Maybe I'm way off.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:36 pm

It is hard work to be the hanger queen of the fleet, but someone got to do it.

Jokes aside, ferry flight is cruising at decent altitude, so damage maybe minimal, although this would have been a good test for field repair process. I would guess it is easy to repair A350 compared to 787 in the field, as it has metal structure with CFRP panels.
 
metroline2006
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
AECM wrote:
It's on its way to LHR i think (BAW164F)

https://fr24.com/BAW164F/2399a3e4


Probably a special condition ferry flight back to LHR prior to scrapping in the BA mainentance area. :duck:


Gonna be converted to a 900 lol
 
ltbewr
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:40 pm

Must of passed a preliminary check to allow it to fly to LHR mx hub for BA. Likely minor damage that will be fixed in a few days pending further inspection. No need for a write-off, yet.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:19 pm

N14AZ wrote:
According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?

During Jan the aircraft has been ping ponging between Bangalore and Tel Aviv.
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yochai
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:55 pm

N14AZ wrote:
According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?


Regular equipment to TLV (runs year round)
 
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Kindanew
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
It is hard work to be the hanger queen of the fleet, but someone got to do it.

Jokes aside, ferry flight is cruising at decent altitude, so damage maybe minimal, although this would have been a good test for field repair process. I would guess it is easy to repair A350 compared to 787 in the field, as it has metal structure with CFRP panels.


The A350 has huge composite panels on a composite frame (although I understand some frames are metal).

Back in 2006 when the XWB was launched it was to have a metal frame with composite panels but it was changed later to a composite frame.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:04 pm

Kindanew wrote:
The A350 has huge composite panels on a composite frame (although I understand some frames are metal).

Back in 2006 when the XWB was launched it was to have a metal frame with composite panels but it was changed later to a composite frame.


Me thinks, as long as the structure is panel on frame, not weaved CFRP tube sectons, repairs are going to be easier. Though A350 design is evolutionary, not revolutionary like 787, field repairs are easy.

Not that BA will let any details leak, do we know the damage was minor (or) the bean counters decided to grind down mx efficiencies and told boys put on your oxygen masks, we are flying this bird home one way or the other.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:16 pm

N14AZ wrote:
According to Aviation Herald, a passenger reported the ceiling panels came down in the aft galley at touch down. Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4d23c7df&opt=0

I had no clue that BA is using their A350 for flights to TLV. Kind of training flights?


Sounds like they need a little more training. :duck:
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
The A350 has huge composite panels on a composite frame (although I understand some frames are metal).

Back in 2006 when the XWB was launched it was to have a metal frame with composite panels but it was changed later to a composite frame.


Me thinks, as long as the structure is panel on frame, not weaved CFRP tube sectons, repairs are going to be easier. Though A350 design is evolutionary, not revolutionary like 787, field repairs are easy.

Not that BA will let any details leak, do we know the damage was minor (or) the bean counters decided to grind down mx efficiencies and told boys put on your oxygen masks, we are flying this bird home one way or the other.

It was at FL410 over Croatia on it's ferry flight back so I wouldn't have thought airframe damage was much.
 
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:50 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
I'm having deja vu. Didn't another aircraft (not sure of the type) recently have a ceiling panel come down on landing? I want to say I remember it being a Latam bird? Maybe I'm way off.


That was an actual overhead bin and ceiling section. The reports sound more like just a ceiling panel with nothing attached to it. Not all that uncommon over the aisles and galley.
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BOAC1966
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:51 pm

En route tonight to TLV .....no problems .....
 
uta999
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:01 pm

Probably giving the ex-Ryanair FO another crack of the whip. Now listen “Retard”
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itisi
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:49 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but once you land harder than the limit it doesn't matter if there is any visible problem.... You ground it for checks.

Clearly some here wanted it to be a big deal but it wasn't. Seeing its flying already and did the ferry flight pressurized.
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zeke
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:06 am

itisi wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but once you land harder than the limit it doesn't matter if there is any visible problem.... You ground it for checks.

Clearly some here wanted it to be a big deal but it wasn't. Seeing its flying already and did the ferry flight pressurized.


Actually after a suspected heavy landing a special report is sent off to Airbus for analysis. Normally the report says the landing was ok.

It takes some time to do the analysis.
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Tristarsteve
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:20 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
It is hard work to be the hanger queen of the fleet, but someone got to do it.

Jokes aside, ferry flight is cruising at decent altitude, so damage maybe minimal, although this would have been a good test for field repair process. I would guess it is easy to repair A350 compared to 787 in the field, as it has metal structure with CFRP panels.


It is not a ferry flight, it is a regular flight with freight only. The F suffix on the flight number is used when there are no passengers on board.

Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:18 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
...
Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.


BA does weird things during IRROPS to save few dollars on mx,parts or passenger accommodation

The infamous PHX-LHR 747 3-engine ferry. Of course, no one in USA can fix a 747 engine.
2016,BA7 to Japan turned around over Finland, returned to LHR. No country in between Finland and Japan is capable to fixing a 777.
2018 BA233 to Moscow has turned around over Latvia, returned to LHR.
2019 BA293 returned to LHR after a steward "knocked himself out". Why Ireland don't have Doctors,
Long ago, there was another 747 en-route USA turned around over Iceland due to operational reasons, returned to LHR

So if BA thinks TLV AMT hourly rates or too high, or parts are marked up, or shop supplies are too expensive or parking fees are unnecessary it will bring the bird back to base. Also if unpressurized flight burns too much fuel, suit up the crew and fly normal cruise altitude.

Past history is always a factor in any behavioral analysis.
 
Antarius
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
...
Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.


BA does weird things during IRROPS to save few dollars on mx,parts or passenger accommodation

The infamous PHX-LHR 747 3-engine ferry. Of course, no one in USA can fix a 747 engine.
2016,BA7 to Japan turned around over Finland, returned to LHR. No country in between Finland and Japan is capable to fixing a 777.
2018 BA233 to Moscow has turned around over Latvia, returned to LHR.
2019 BA293 returned to LHR after a steward "knocked himself out". Why Ireland don't have Doctors,
Long ago, there was another 747 en-route USA turned around over Iceland due to operational reasons, returned to LHR

So if BA thinks TLV AMT hourly rates or too high, or parts are marked up, or shop supplies are too expensive or parking fees are unnecessary it will bring the bird back to base. Also if unpressurized flight burns too much fuel, suit up the crew and fly normal cruise altitude.

Past history is always a factor in any behavioral analysis.


Unless it is an emergency, you return to base. What if the aircraft couldn't be fixed or the repair took longer? Now you've stranded 250 passengers in Finland or somewhere else. Better to return to LHR, then you have staff and control over the situation.

Not to mention visa issues that can result.

But hey, let's not let logic get in the way of slamming meanie BA
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theginge
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
...
Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.


BA does weird things during IRROPS to save few dollars on mx,parts or passenger accommodation

The infamous PHX-LHR 747 3-engine ferry. Of course, no one in USA can fix a 747 engine.
2016,BA7 to Japan turned around over Finland, returned to LHR. No country in between Finland and Japan is capable to fixing a 777.
2018 BA233 to Moscow has turned around over Latvia, returned to LHR.
2019 BA293 returned to LHR after a steward "knocked himself out". Why Ireland don't have Doctors,
Long ago, there was another 747 en-route USA turned around over Iceland due to operational reasons, returned to LHR
.


BA regularly flies empty 744s on 3 engines, why pay to ship an engine several thousand miles when the 744 is certified to fly on 3 allowing the aircraft to fly back to base?
That country between Finland and Japan is Russia, yes of course they could fix a 777 but then the Pilots decided not to fly for hours over very remote areas with a problem but rather return to base. Also considering the passengers, be handled at Heathrow or some remote airfield in Russia.
You don't always need to land at the first available airfield, eg flying over Ireland to get to London, obviously the Steward wasn't serious enough to need immediate attention but it couldn't wait for 5 hours to get to the USA
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
...
Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.


BA does weird things during IRROPS to save few dollars on mx,parts or passenger accommodation

The infamous PHX-LHR 747 3-engine ferry. Of course, no one in USA can fix a 747 engine.
2016,BA7 to Japan turned around over Finland, returned to LHR. No country in between Finland and Japan is capable to fixing a 777.
2018 BA233 to Moscow has turned around over Latvia, returned to LHR.
2019 BA293 returned to LHR after a steward "knocked himself out". Why Ireland don't have Doctors,
Long ago, there was another 747 en-route USA turned around over Iceland due to operational reasons, returned to LHR

So if BA thinks TLV AMT hourly rates or too high, or parts are marked up, or shop supplies are too expensive or parking fees are unnecessary it will bring the bird back to base. Also if unpressurized flight burns too much fuel, suit up the crew and fly normal cruise altitude.

Past history is always a factor in any behavioral analysis.


What on earth has this to do with the question?

If a B747-400 needs an engine change, BA will always fly the aircraft back to the UK to change it. Once, to my knowledge, when they needed an engine change in Sydney did they loan an engine from Qantas and fly the plane back. It is cheaper and quicker to 3 engine ferry, than to ship an engine and people and stands around the world.

Incidently, about 5 years ago there was a directive from above to the BA operations centre that, if an aircraft had problems, but could still reach its planned destination, then it should continue, even if it was AOG on arrival.
 
HEATHROWHUNTER
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Does anyone know whether this hard landing was a fault by the pilot or another factor which contributed ? What is BA’s policy with pilots and these situations ? Is this simply they are to the sim for more training or would he/she face more stricter sanctions?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:22 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
What on earth has this to do with the question?.

Proves
Maintenance ferry flights at BA are extremly rare. Getting permission for a flight outside the MEL / CDL / AMM is difficult.

is not accurate.

Tristarsteve wrote:
If a B747-400 needs an engine change, BA will always fly the aircraft back to the UK to change it. Once, to my knowledge, when they needed an engine change in Sydney did they loan an engine from Qantas and fly the plane back. It is cheaper and quicker to 3 engine ferry, than to ship an engine and people and stands around the world.
That's what most airlines do. Long flights to nowhere is unique to BA. That's what pax on those planes thought, if you read their Twitter posts.

Tristarsteve wrote:
Incidently, about 5 years ago there was a directive from above to the BA operations centre that, if an aircraft had problems, but could still reach its planned destination, then it should continue, even if it was AOG on arrival.


Examples I quoted didn't follow the directive, or you are missing a caveat that the destination is London.

Latvia is closer to Moscow(Destination) than London, should have continued to Moscow
No need to turn around over Iceland en-route Chicago just because wing landing gear pins were not removed. Could have continued to Chicago.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:28 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
During Jan the aircraft has been ping ponging between Bangalore and Tel Aviv.


Imagine what the passengers are thinking! Not to mention, the catering bill must be a fortune!
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DL757NYC
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:38 pm

Reminds me of the time my buddy put a ding in a brand new 777LR with the FMC. Lucky it was within limits.
 
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zeke
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Re: BA new A350 damaged at Tel Aviv

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:48 pm

HEATHROWHUNTER wrote:
Does anyone know whether this hard landing was a fault by the pilot or another factor which contributed ? What is BA’s policy with pilots and these situations ? Is this simply they are to the sim for more training or would he/she face more stricter sanctions?


I doubt it was a hard landing given how quick it returned to service.

Hard landings are very difficult for pilots to know by feel, the gear attachment on the 350 is very different to the 330. We have had landings on the 350 which on an 330 would be a hard landing.

If crew suspect a hard landing they make an entry to that effect into the maintenance log for the aircraft. The mechanics will do their normal post flight inspection and send off a special landing report they downloaded from the aircraft with a USB.

Airbus does analysis on that file, normally it comes back with no issues, sometimes they will issue a conditional release for 30 flight cycles while they do more analysis.

I don’t know about BA specific policy, as an organisation we would look at a landing like that, and if there is lessons that can be learned we will share that with the wider pilot community. Nothing punitive would be done to the specific crew.

TLV can be tricky this time of year, they can get some strong wind gradients, and if it’s an onshore wind RW30 would be used with an RNAV approach.
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