docmtl
Topic Author
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:58 pm

Hi, folks

The 50-90 turboprop market is stalled in 1980's technology and design (ATR, DHC, Ilyushin, to name a few).
New hybrid-electric propulsion designs are coming of age, and Boeing has invested in some of them, such as:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-09-17-Boeing-and-Safran-Invest-in-Electric-Power-Systems

On the other hand, Zunum Aero, a turboprop start up which designs an all-electric propulsion commuter, has run out of cash on such a project (too small a company to succeed ?...). Boeing itself, JetBlue and others have given up on them in 2019...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2019/07/02/zunum-aero-nears-zero-founders-struggle-to-raise-money-after-laying-off-staff/#68ded10e2d73

Now comes Embraer announcing they've got a 2-year work done on a 3-year clean-sheet project for a new-generation turboprop, depending on the Boeing-Embraer joint venture approval by the EU. They're claiming to be able to put it to market by 2025-27, and Embraer is renowned by their ability to deliver on clean sheet projects - time wise, budget wise and quality wise.
https://simpleflying.com/boeing-turboprop/
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/embraer-turboprop-go-ahead-hinges-on-eu-probe-into-boeing-joint-venture/136232.article

My questions are:

1. If it ever moves ahead, would this project include new hybrid-electric technology ?
2: Would it be a 30-50 seater? A 50-90 seater ? A 70-110 seater ?
3: Is there a business case for such a plane (2800 needed in the next 20 years, per ATR's market evaluation) ?

Thx for your insights,

docmtl
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:04 pm

Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:13 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


What about the 777 and the 787? Last time I checked they where game changers designed and built by Boeing.

I'm curious if the world needs another turboprop besides the DHC-8 and ATR-72.

There probably will be demand if the Embraer/Boeing make the new plane much more economical, but how much room for progress is there with Turboprops? Interesting development.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6635
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:42 pm

docmtl wrote:
3: Is there a business case for such a plane (2800 needed in the next 20 years, per ATR's market evaluation) ?


Is this ATR's market forecast that you reference? http://www.atraircraft.com/datas/downlo ... al_151.pdf

It's wildly optimistic for North America, where the net gain of turboprop routes is going to be negative.

Engineering, tooling and sales costs will be tough to recover when the market is split three ways. Who wants to predict that ATR or Q400 get killed by this effort?
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:44 pm

An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....
 
Elementalism
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:13 pm

I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.
 
SEA
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:16 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


Well... it depends on what you mean by disruptive. For many operators, Boeing has been a huge disruption over the last year!

Joking aside,
The CRJ fleet of many US carriers is only getting older and older.I'm sure there is a market to be found and you don't need a jet for a lot of these EAS routes or short seasonal routes.
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.


People keep saying this. But this assumes that there's absolutely no change in fuel taxes in the US over the next decade. That's quite the political bet to make. If carbon taxes come in, a lot of places (not just the US) will face a choice: cuts to frequencies and higher ticket prices with RJs or keep the same services and fly a modern turboprop.

What I don't get is is that it's taken as common wisdom that pax don't care about anything but the fare, and yet so many Americans keep arguing that they won't fly a turboprop. Which is it?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:33 pm

Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.

Boeing needs to think beyond the US market; and they do.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2565
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:38 pm

The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:53 pm

TObound wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.
.

What I don't get is is that it's taken as common wisdom that pax don't care about anything but the fare, and yet so many Americans keep arguing that they won't fly a turboprop. Which is it?


If I had to take a stab at it, I’d say that there’s a mental association that jet engine = new and safe; propellor = old outdated and potentially dangerous.

Doesn’t help that most Americans have never stepped foot in a prop airliner. Or that most aviation accidents in US airspace is GA planes, most of which are prop planes.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:30 pm

IWMBH wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


What about the 777 and the 787? Last time I checked they where game changers designed and built by Boeing.



Well, I do take your point, and I was kind of expecting someone to point out to these two [obviously very advanced and very successful jets], but in all honestly I find these much more like a 'reaction' to the ever-evolving and very successful Airbus twin-engine widebodies and thus becoming acutely aware that they too needed new products that tapped exactly into the segment that had been opened by ther European rival...
Although I was joking when I mentioned the 732 Adv as the last innovative project, I do think that their last 'grounbreaking'/disruptive project "born out of sheer internal innovation pursuit" and NOT as a reaction to external competition [Airbus], is the 757/767 combo. After that most if not all of their designs have been in direct response to more advanced and complex projects brought forth by the competition.
Another clue to the 'protectionst' vs 'evolutionist' mentality of Boeing was when they merged with MDD, killing a competitor and consolidate their business domestically.
Same goes for 'partnering up' with Embraer if you like. Reaction vs vision.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 735
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:34 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


Harsh. And more to the point, untrue.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:35 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.


Agree, except if you compare the cabin creature comforts, overall cabin looks, noise levels and overall comfort, you can clearly map why this otherwise perfectly capable aircraft has less than desirable passenger appeal..... I mean, compare that to flying on a E-175.... The ATR is a much closer comparison (barring the speed), if offers a nice, modern, elegant cabin, and very favorable cabin noise levels, as well as almost ZERO vibrations.
If Embraer/Boeing could come up with a design that LOOKS and FEELS the part, I think that a large chunk of the flying demographics would quickly become more supportive of a new turboprop....
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:37 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


Harsh. And more to the point, untrue.


Harsh maybe. Untrue I dare say not. Always invariably following suit, trailing behind we know who, very slowly embracing change simply because the market was dictating it....
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:37 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.


Crews are getting expensive. The days of 50 seat aircraft used in regional service are quickly coming to an end. For the few who really need it, there will be the ATR42 or maybe renewed Q300s. But there's no point aiming R&D at this category. It's also less likely in Europe and a lot of Asia as trains start competing with these flights.
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:45 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.


Agree, except if you compare the cabin creature comforts, overall cabin looks, noise levels and overall comfort, you can clearly map why this otherwise perfectly capable aircraft has less than desirable passenger appeal..... I mean, compare that to flying on a E-175.... The ATR is a much closer comparison (barring the speed), if offers a nice, modern, elegant cabin, and very favorable cabin noise levels, as well as almost ZERO vibrations.
If Embraer/Boeing could come up with a design that LOOKS and FEELS the part, I think that a large chunk of the flying demographics would quickly become more supportive of a new turboprop....


Have you flown on a Q400? Not a Q300. But a Q400? I don't find much vibration or cabin noise onboard. I don't find any difference with "overall cabin looks". It's a great aircraft. But it's also overbuilt. It's fast enough to be almost an RJ on anything less than 1000nm. Most operators don't want to pay for that kind of capability which is why sales are lagging.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:51 pm

TObound wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.



The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.


Agree, except if you compare the cabin creature comforts, overall cabin looks, noise levels and overall comfort, you can clearly map why this otherwise perfectly capable aircraft has less than desirable passenger appeal..... I mean, compare that to flying on a E-175.... The ATR is a much closer comparison (barring the speed), if offers a nice, modern, elegant cabin, and very favorable cabin noise levels, as well as almost ZERO vibrations.
If Embraer/Boeing could come up with a design that LOOKS and FEELS the part, I think that a large chunk of the flying demographics would quickly become more supportive of a new turboprop....


Have you flown on a Q400? Not a Q300. But a Q400? I don't find much vibration or cabin noise onboard. I don't find any difference with "overall cabin looks". It's a great aircraft. But it's also overbuilt. It's fast enough to be almost an RJ on anything less than 1000nm. Most operators don't want to pay for that kind of capability which is why sales are lagging.


Yeah, I have. Many times. I find them **ok** on a short feeder flight, but otherwise they are frankly pretty uncomfortable. I mean, I LOVE flying. Period. Gimme a rusty DC-3 and I'm happy. But 'normal people' will think it's noisy. And it VIBRATES too. The regular old -300 is soooo noisy I'd actively avoid it unless strictly necessary. The cabins of the Dash's are also REALLY tired looking, the nasty thin low-back 1960s-look seats are terrible, the brittle plastics, the lavatories with no water...please.... they've really had their time...
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:53 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
TObound wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

Agree, except if you compare the cabin creature comforts, overall cabin looks, noise levels and overall comfort, you can clearly map why this otherwise perfectly capable aircraft has less than desirable passenger appeal..... I mean, compare that to flying on a E-175.... The ATR is a much closer comparison (barring the speed), if offers a nice, modern, elegant cabin, and very favorable cabin noise levels, as well as almost ZERO vibrations.
If Embraer/Boeing could come up with a design that LOOKS and FEELS the part, I think that a large chunk of the flying demographics would quickly become more supportive of a new turboprop....


Have you flown on a Q400? Not a Q300. But a Q400? I don't find much vibration or cabin noise onboard. I don't find any difference with "overall cabin looks". It's a great aircraft. But it's also overbuilt. It's fast enough to be almost an RJ on anything less than 1000nm. Most operators don't want to pay for that kind of capability which is why sales are lagging.


Yeah, I have. Many times. I find them **ok** on a short feeder flight, but otherwise they are frankly pretty uncomfortable. I mean, I LOVE flying. Period. Gimme a rusty DC-3 and I'm happy. But 'normal people' will think it's noisy. And it VIBRATES too. The regular old -300 is soooo noisy I'd actively avoid it unless strictly necessary. The cabins of the Dash's are also REALLY tired looking, the nasty thin low-back 1960s-look seats are terrible, the brittle plastics, the lavatories with no water...please.... they've really had their time...


A lot of what you describe is airline dependent though. Not OEM dependent. There are carriers which do a decent job with their Q400s. See Porter for example.
 
EIBPI
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:34 pm

The question is how do you design something compatible with new hybrid/electric technologies that some OEMs see coming online in the mid-2030s?

IATA concept for a 60-80 seat regional aircraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovNbjTdHQTM
 
EIBPI
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:37 pm

TObound wrote:
Crews are getting expensive. The days of 50 seat aircraft used in regional service are quickly coming to an end. For the few who really need it, there will be the ATR42 or maybe renewed Q300s. But there's no point aiming R&D at this category. It's also less likely in Europe and a lot of Asia as trains start competing with these flights.


Single pilot operations will go some way towards addressing the staff costs in next generation regional aircraft.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:37 pm

This future plane under research could be an excellent turboprop. Already high wing making the prop diameter clear the ground.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/the-futur ... ng-design/

Something is percolating along, Pratt is developing a new turboprop engine, possibly a bit bigger than needed but that can be scaled.

A 70 seater that meets scope has a good potential, in particular as only the Spacejet is the only new model that conforms, but they are new to aviation.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:38 pm

TObound wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.


People keep saying this. But this assumes that there's absolutely no change in fuel taxes in the US over the next decade. That's quite the political bet to make. If carbon taxes come in, a lot of places (not just the US) will face a choice: cuts to frequencies and higher ticket prices with RJs or keep the same services and fly a modern turboprop.

What I don't get is is that it's taken as common wisdom that pax don't care about anything but the fare, and yet so many Americans keep arguing that they won't fly a turboprop. Which is it?


People care about the fare but they also dont like Turboprops. I'd say Turboprop is more disliked than a higher fare.

And a Carbon tax that will be noticeable in the states in the next decade is a pipedream. We can barely get gasoline taxes raised by 10 cents without a revolt.
 
EIBPI
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:41 pm

Elementalism wrote:
People care about the fare but they also dont like Turboprops. I'd say Turboprop is more disliked than a higher fare.


Distributed propulsion is unlikely to take the form of big turboprop engines hanging off the wing. In fact, I would say the design concepts will significantly reduce the visible difference between turboprop and jet engines.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:44 pm

EIBPI wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
People care about the fare but they also dont like Turboprops. I'd say Turboprop is more disliked than a higher fare.


Distributed propulsion is unlikely to take the form of big turboprop engines hanging off the wing. In fact, I would say the design concepts will significantly reduce the visible difference between turboprop and jet engines.


So you are of the belief there wont be two large propllers hanging off a wing but instead a bunch of smaller more discrete engines powering these 50-90 pax aircraft?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3577
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:48 pm

Yes, it is absolutely time for something new in the 50-90 seat turboprop world. ATR has stagnated with an early 80s design and the Q400 is mediocre.

A new design will need a better and simpler cockpit layout, better ice protection and more power while providing fuel savings over the ATR. A reliable and cheap APU really wouldn't hurt. A cabin that is as wide as an E-jet and has large overhead lockers would go far in terms of passenger comfort. Given aerodynamic and material advances, they should be able to develop a kickass wing. FBW would make it more easy to fly.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:48 pm

Well composite materials for the fuselage should at least be adopted into the program.

But unless it provided a really big fuel savings (30%-40% compared to the most fuel efficient turboprops today). It wouldn't really take off.

As for capacity, I see 50 seats, 70 seats, and 100 seats variants with ranges between 800nmi - 1200nmi.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1656
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:48 pm

There needs to be real disruption in the space for the economics to work. New markets from secondary airports in heavily populated areas. 50-70 seats probably too big.

oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


Good one. At least use a company that can stand alone on their innovative and courageous products because no airliner mfg'r not named Airbus or Boeing can claim that.
 
Tennhillbilly63
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:58 pm

I can definitely see the use for a 80-100 seat Turboprop in the U.S. Market . There are lots of short hauls of 250 miles or less where a turboprop makes sense. Example would be between OKC and DFW. That would ideal route for a turboprop instead of a jet. The flight usually never goes above 22,000 FT and modern turbofan Jet Engines are not really efficient until they operate at 35,000 FT +
18,000 FT - 25,000 FT is ideal range for Turboprop engine. 80 seat turboprop would be more cost efficient to operate than the 70 seat RJ's that are presently being operated. The gate to gate times are less than 15 minutes difference on a flight this short.
Bring back the turboprops! I really liked riding the Saab 340's around the Southwest U.S. Not so much a fan of the ATR's.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:35 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Not really sure about the needed size of this new turboprop, but off the top of my head all I can say is that 'disruptive technology' and Boeing do not go together well. Particularly not in the same sentence.
I do trust Embraer for their innovation and courage, but not the Boeing company. They are the most 'sat', plateau-ed, status quo-ed, 'trend following' of the manufacturers. They stopped being innovative at the time they launched the Advanced 737-200.


Harsh. And more to the point, untrue.

Harsh? Sure.
Untrue? Please care to explain how it's untrue?

787 was a breakthrough, with carbon fiber body and bleedless systems.
777 was a classic twin, that made full use of the newer ETOPS regulations; hardly a technological breakthrough.
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 1411
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:31 pm

Is there a market for such an aircraft? How practical and scalable is the new technology that is being discussed?

But apart from these questions, is Boeing the company that can bring these to the market? Boeing today is not a company driven by engineering/R&D anymore like it was in the 70's. Boeing today is a company driven by the shareholders. The 787/777X/737MAX screwup's are evidence of this change! Can such a company deliver on this new technology? Highly doubt that!

Airbus or Embraer? Certainly! COMAC/UAC? Perhaps! But Boeing?
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
YIMBY
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:38 pm

docmtl wrote:
1. If it ever moves ahead, would this project include new hybrid-electric technology ?

Depends how hybrid, but battery driven engines will not appear in commercial aviation in any near future. When diesel locomotives, long distance lorries and buses and car ferries are replaced by hybrid-electric technology, and all electricity is produced fossil-free, you can start thinking even partially electric technology in aviation.
docmtl wrote:
2: Would it be a 30-50 seater? A 50-90 seater ? A 70-110 seater ?

Could be even larger, though that is proper Boeing territory. Depends also whether ATR /Airbus wants to invest in a new, larger turboprop, what size window is left most unserved.

For which size there will be new conventional but more economical/ecological turboprop engines available in the next decade?
docmtl wrote:
3: Is there a business case for such a plane (2800 needed in the next 20 years, per ATR's market evaluation) ?

Yes, likely, though depends a lot whether rising oil, imposed fuel taxes and fly shame materialize into prop-favouring atmosphere or against all aviation equally. There are myriads of hardly predictable variables.
docmtl wrote:
Thx for your insights,

docmtl


You are welcome.
 
docmtl
Topic Author
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:06 pm

I was thinking more on the technological side of it instead of user's perception, though...
Say, if you have a E1-170 style cabin, improved wings, composite materials, hybrid-electric engines.

Embraer is quoted as saying this new design would be around by 2025-27, only 5-7 years from now...
 
EIBPI
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:13 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Depends how hybrid, but battery driven engines will not appear in commercial aviation in any near future. When diesel locomotives, long distance lorries and buses and car ferries are replaced by hybrid-electric technology, and all electricity is produced fossil-free, you can start thinking even partially electric technology in aviation.


That is all fine, but the reality is that aviation is under far greater scrutiny than the other sectors.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:35 pm

???
Modern diesel locomotives are hybrid already. long distance electric buses operate from my city.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:43 pm

leghorn wrote:
Modern diesel locomotives are hybrid already. .

In what way?
Do you have an example?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:54 pm

they are called diesel electric locomotives. the diesel motor isn't connected direct to the transmission.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:18 pm

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


Manmade climate change is not a thing, at all, but being fuel efficient on low altitude routes is very much needed. A big plane that can fly low happily would be warmly received by bean counters.
Last edited by Babyshark on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 243
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:27 pm

Tennhillbilly63 wrote:
I can definitely see the use for a 80-100 seat Turboprop in the U.S. Market . There are lots of short hauls of 250 miles or less where a turboprop makes sense. Example would be between OKC and DFW. That would ideal route for a turboprop instead of a jet. The flight usually never goes above 22,000 FT and modern turbofan Jet Engines are not really efficient until they operate at 35,000 FT +
18,000 FT - 25,000 FT is ideal range for Turboprop engine. 80 seat turboprop would be more cost efficient to operate than the 70 seat RJ's that are presently being operated. The gate to gate times are less than 15 minutes difference on a flight this short.
Bring back the turboprops! I really liked riding the Saab 340's around the Southwest U.S. Not so much a fan of the ATR's.


If they do this for the US market they need to go with as big a version as they can for efficiency since it will have to be flown by mainline. Pilot unions are not stupid enough to sign off on 80 seat outsourced aircraft anymore, especially turboprops sporting new technology. We want the jumbo RJs gone already. Might as well sell it to mainline and go big.
 
SJPBR
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:20 am

leghorn wrote:
they are called diesel electric locomotives. the diesel motor isn't connected direct to the transmission.


And this is has been this way for over 30 years. BTW Cruise ships and other ships also burn oil to generate electricity and this power up the propelors. No direct connection between oil engine and propellors.
 
LDRA
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:59 am

Self driving cars will kill off a significant portion of RJ market
 
speedbird52
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:09 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
The obvious need right now is in the 50 seat space. CRJ-200s and E-145s are getting quite old and are very inefficient. I would imagine they will make at least two models and want to probably size it similar to the ATR-42/72. The problem they face with going larger than roughly 70 seats is they compete with the EJets. So either they cannibalize a sale the EJets probably had anyway, or the turboprop doesn't sell because airlines prefer the flexibility of the jet.

TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


The Q400 is already at the low end of this market, sips fuel compared to a regional jet, and is barely selling enough to keep the line open.


Agree, except if you compare the cabin creature comforts, overall cabin looks, noise levels and overall comfort, you can clearly map why this otherwise perfectly capable aircraft has less than desirable passenger appeal..... I mean, compare that to flying on a E-175.... The ATR is a much closer comparison (barring the speed), if offers a nice, modern, elegant cabin, and very favorable cabin noise levels, as well as almost ZERO vibrations.
If Embraer/Boeing could come up with a design that LOOKS and FEELS the part, I think that a large chunk of the flying demographics would quickly become more supportive of a new turboprop....

Having flown both the Q400 and ATR72 I just cannot agree. I felt that the ATR was louder than the Q400, and noticed no cabin difference
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:17 am

Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


Manmade climate change is not a thing, at all, but being fuel efficient on low altitude routes is very much needed. A big plane that can fly low happily would be warmly received by bean counters.


Americans may have a tough time understanding the science behind anthropogenic climate change. The rest of the world doesn't. And airplane makers do have to sell in more than just the US market so it matters. If trains start killing 80 seater flights elsewhere, the market for a new airplane in this category will suck. Simple as that.

But this category is hard not just because of fuel costs. Crew costs are high too. And worse if mainline pilots have to fly them. Slots are getting more precious at larger airports too, adding to the pressure to upgauge.

As an RJ replacement for routes less than 500nm it's a reasonable idea. Anything outside that, the business case falls apart quick.
Last edited by TObound on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DDR
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:24 am

TObound wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:
An 80-100 seat turboprop is the logical replacement for a lot or RJs out there. Climate change is a thing. And with rising fuel taxes globally, RJ flying is going to become far less defensible. A next-gen turboprop that can cut fuel burn by 20% over current RJs would sell really well. I'd argue that it will even sell in the US, once a lot of small city/town Americans realize their alternative is no service.....


Manmade climate change is not a thing, at all, but being fuel efficient on low altitude routes is very much needed. A big plane that can fly low happily would be warmly received by bean counters.


Americans may have a tough time understanding the science behind anthropogenic climate change. The rest is the world doesn't. And airplane maker do have to sell in more than just the US market so it matters. If trains start killing 80 seater flights elsewhere, the market for a new airplane in this category will suck. Simple as that.

But this category is hard not just because of fuel costs. Crew costs are high too. And worse if mainline pilots have to fly them. Slots are getting more precious at larger airports too, adding to the pressure to upgauge.

As an RJ replacement for routes less than 500nm it's a reasonable idea. Anything outside that, the business case falls apart quick.


Oh yea, another Americans are stupid post. Get over yourself.
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:31 am

Babyshark wrote:
Tennhillbilly63 wrote:
I can definitely see the use for a 80-100 seat Turboprop in the U.S. Market . There are lots of short hauls of 250 miles or less where a turboprop makes sense. Example would be between OKC and DFW. That would ideal route for a turboprop instead of a jet. The flight usually never goes above 22,000 FT and modern turbofan Jet Engines are not really efficient until they operate at 35,000 FT +
18,000 FT - 25,000 FT is ideal range for Turboprop engine. 80 seat turboprop would be more cost efficient to operate than the 70 seat RJ's that are presently being operated. The gate to gate times are less than 15 minutes difference on a flight this short.
Bring back the turboprops! I really liked riding the Saab 340's around the Southwest U.S. Not so much a fan of the ATR's.


If they do this for the US market they need to go with as big a version as they can for efficiency since it will have to be flown by mainline. Pilot unions are not stupid enough to sign off on 80 seat outsourced aircraft anymore, especially turboprops sporting new technology. We want the jumbo RJs gone already. Might as well sell it to mainline and go big.


An 80 seater becomes a 76 seater just by removing one row or converting the first 4 rows to 3-abreast J/F. There's absolutely no business case to have mainline guys fly these things. And given that a Q400 is scope compliant with an MTOW margin of nearly 19 000 lbs, there shouldn't be lots of concern about any future such narrowbody not meeting scope.
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 am

DDR wrote:
TObound wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

Manmade climate change is not a thing, at all, but being fuel efficient on low altitude routes is very much needed. A big plane that can fly low happily would be warmly received by bean counters.


Americans may have a tough time understanding the science behind anthropogenic climate change. The rest is the world doesn't. And airplane maker do have to sell in more than just the US market so it matters. If trains start killing 80 seater flights elsewhere, the market for a new airplane in this category will suck. Simple as that.

But this category is hard not just because of fuel costs. Crew costs are high too. And worse if mainline pilots have to fly them. Slots are getting more precious at larger airports too, adding to the pressure to upgauge.

As an RJ replacement for routes less than 500nm it's a reasonable idea. Anything outside that, the business case falls apart quick.


Oh yea, another Americans are stupid post. Get over yourself.


I can't help it if Americans keep insisting that anthropogenic climate change is incomprehensible to them.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9753
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:59 am

The need exist for a turbo prop I would say no greater than 60 pax and the market will not be the USA, so Boeing cannot be the driver because they will attempt to make the a/c compatible with that market. See the Q400, it was supposed to replace regional RJ's so pax count was up, powerful engines for near jet speeds on shot routes and as a result, an almost total failure in the US market. In the Caribbean for example, it is too large, the extra revenue by the additional seats only works if you can fill those seats, so we have a number of older props still flying around with no replacement in sight. Scope clauses and the TSA make short trips by air in the USA untenable and this is the strength of turbo props, I do not see that changing anytime soon, now for the rest of the world.....not much OEM's talking about their specific needs.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12846
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:12 am

TObound wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.

People keep saying this. But this assumes that there's absolutely no change in fuel taxes in the US over the next decade. That's quite the political bet to make.

You know VERY little about US politics, particularly in reference to tax on commodities, if you actually believe that that's a tentative bet to take.........


Elementalism wrote:
And a Carbon tax that will be noticeable in the states in the next decade is a pipedream. We can barely get gasoline taxes raised by 10 cents without a revolt.

.........this person, however, gets it.



WayexTDI wrote:
777 was a classic twin, that made full use of the newer ETOPS regulations; hardly a technological breakthrough.

Wait, what?

The first pax jet with full digital CATIA design, isn't a tech breakthrough? In what universe?
That one's sorta the elephant in the room, but let's also not forget:

    Double AIMS systems?
    First to use full fiber-optic avionics?
    ETOPS180 at EIS?
    Overhead crew rests?

Let's not shortchange the model, shall we.


LDRA wrote:
Self driving cars will kill off a significant portion of RJ market other drivers

FIFY ;)


TObound wrote:
I can't help it if Americans keep insisting that anthropogenic climate change is incomprehensible to them.

You confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension; ironic, seeing as that in itself is a-- lack of comprehension.

And spare me your "97% of blah blah blah," I'm not even taking a side; just can see both.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18835
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:56 am

I believe that if there is to be a new turboprop, it will be the 50 seat market. The economics must be dramatically improved.

JayinKitsap wrote:

Something is percolating along, Pratt is developing a new turboprop engine, possibly a bit bigger than needed but that can be scaled.
.

Pratt has been working on the new turboprop for years. For example, Pratt worked GTFs for 20+ years before EIS. It will take a launch platform.

Rumors of 15% to 20% fuel burn reduction:
https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/14/pratt ... turboprop/


. Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
TObound
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A clean-sheet 50-90 pax Turboprop by Boeing Brasil Commercial-Embraer. Disruptive technologies needed ?

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:42 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TObound wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I dont see Turbo-props being a hot seller in the US market. Not sure about other markets.

People keep saying this. But this assumes that there's absolutely no change in fuel taxes in the US over the next decade. That's quite the political bet to make.

You know VERY little about US politics, particularly in reference to tax on commodities, if you actually believe that that's a tentative bet to take.........


Elementalism wrote:
And a Carbon tax that will be noticeable in the states in the next decade is a pipedream. We can barely get gasoline taxes raised by 10 cents without a revolt.

.........this person, however, gets it.



WayexTDI wrote:
777 was a classic twin, that made full use of the newer ETOPS regulations; hardly a technological breakthrough.

Wait, what?

The first pax jet with full digital CATIA design, isn't a tech breakthrough? In what universe?
That one's sorta the elephant in the room, but let's also not forget:

    Double AIMS systems?
    First to use full fiber-optic avionics?
    ETOPS180 at EIS?
    Overhead crew rests?

Let's not shortchange the model, shall we.


LDRA wrote:
Self driving cars will kill off a significant portion of RJ market other drivers

FIFY ;)


TObound wrote:
I can't help it if Americans keep insisting that anthropogenic climate change is incomprehensible to them.

You confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension; ironic, seeing as that in itself is a-- lack of comprehension.

And spare me your "97% of blah blah blah," I'm not even taking a side; just can see both.


The naivete makes me chuckle sometimes. I said "over a decade" for a reason. In a decade how many Boomers do you think will be around to vote? Meanwhile, the generational cohort coming through clearly favours a carbon tax. And that is reflected by the fact that most of the candidates for Presidential nomination of their preferred party have expressed support for a carbon tax. Gonna happen in the next half decade? No. And I never said that. In the lifetime of this proposed platform? Probably.

And more importantly there's a bigger world beyond the US, where concern over what Americans deem trivial is driving policy. It's not like aviation emissions are simply going to stop being talked about because a few av fans wearing red, white and blue as their team colours think it's a made up issue.

In any event, all of that works out nicer for the plane maker who makes a more fuel efficient frame.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos