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sonicruiser
Topic Author
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Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:34 pm

Looks like negotiations between US and Pakistan have paid off, flights are set to resume in April 2020. The article suggests it will be the longest international route of PIA to the US which suggests two things:

1. It will become a nonstop in both directions.
2. It says it will be their longest route, so PIA's flight would be to ORD, not JFK, since PIA already flies to YYZ and JFK would be shorter than their existing YYZ route.

https://timesofislamabad.com/21-Jan-202 ... ium=direct
Last edited by atcsundevil on Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited in accordance with forum rules
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
steex
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

Re: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:43 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
2. It says it will be their longest route, so PIA's flight would be to ORD, not JFK, since PIA already flies to YYZ and JFK would be shorter than their existing YYZ route.


LHE-YYZ is actually 60+ miles shorter than LHE-JFK, so I'm not sure we can take what the story says and firmly conclude this means ORD. I think New York is still quite a bit more likely.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:02 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Looks like negotiations between US and Pakistan have paid off, flights are set to resume in April 2020. The article suggests it will be the longest international route of PIA to the US which suggests two things:

1. It will become a nonstop in both directions.
2. It says it will be their longest route, so PIA's flight would be to ORD, not JFK, since PIA already flies to YYZ and JFK would be shorter than their existing YYZ route.

https://timesofislamabad.com/21-Jan-202 ... ium=direct

The thread title has been updated per forum rules to indicate that the route has not yet been confirmed.
 
bravotango75
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:25 pm

They should think about BOS, quite a few Indo-Paskitinis here, especially those attending BU, BC, Harvard. Chicago is a dying city...
 
behramjee
Posts: 5081
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:30 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Looks like negotiations between US and Pakistan have paid off, flights are set to resume in April 2020. The article suggests it will be the longest international route of PIA to the US which suggests two things:

1. It will become a nonstop in both directions.
2. It says it will be their longest route, so PIA's flight would be to ORD, not JFK, since PIA already flies to YYZ and JFK would be shorter than their existing YYZ route.

https://timesofislamabad.com/21-Jan-202 ... ium=direct


You seem to be too overly excited by reading the Times of Islamabad article ! In any case, ORD was never in PK's plans to begin with whilst ISB-JFK nonstop has always been and still is. So just to clear the air, there is no chance what so ever of PK reinstating ORD for the time being as the focus is purely on JFK and for good reason too due to the market demand out of NYC being 4 times greater than ORD to PAK !
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
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Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:41 pm

behramjee wrote:
In any case, ORD was never in PK's plans to begin with whilst ISB-JFK nonstop has always been and still is. So just to clear the air, there is no chance what so ever of PK reinstating ORD for the time being as the focus is purely on JFK and for good reason too due to the market demand out of NYC being 4 times greater than ORD to PAK !


I wouldn't say JFK is a foregone conclusion. JFK has more ME3 capacity so competition would also be a lot higher compared to ORD. And PIA did fly to ORD for some time fairly recently:

Image

Image
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
Pinto
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:05 pm

Could possibly be IAD
 
chicawgo
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:23 pm

bravotango75 wrote:
They should think about BOS, quite a few Indo-Paskitinis here, especially those attending BU, BC, Harvard. Chicago is a dying city...


In what metric? Record gdp? Record residential and commercial construction? Record leisure and business visitors? Record hotel occupancy and rooms? Record traffic at ORD? Record job openings? 3rd straight year of double digit drops in all violent crime?

Please enlighten us! Or mods should delete the troll post.
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:35 pm

Didn't they fly via BCN the last time they flew to ORD? When did they pull out?
 
bravotango75
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:53 pm

chicawgo wrote:
bravotango75 wrote:
They should think about BOS, quite a few Indo-Paskitinis here, especially those attending BU, BC, Harvard. Chicago is a dying city...


In what metric? Record gdp? Record residential and commercial construction? Record leisure and business visitors? Record hotel occupancy and rooms? Record traffic at ORD? Record job openings? 3rd straight year of double digit drops in all violent crime?

Please enlighten us! Or mods should delete the troll post.


Hey, I like Chi-Town but the facts are the facts...
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/bre ... story.html
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:12 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't they fly via BCN the last time they flew to ORD? When did they pull out?


They last pulled out june 2013 as I was booked on them to go to bcn. About 2 weeks before they called me and rebooked me on klm as they threw I the towel. Fares were pretty good ord-bcn about 350 each way. Would have liked to try pia but at least got the 747 combi on klm
 
DXTraveler
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 4:31 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:30 pm

"Hey, I like Chi-Town but the facts are the facts..."
Reroute it to MKE then. A lot of them are fleeing north.
 
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United787
Posts: 2938
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:36 pm

bravotango75 wrote:


Population is just one metric. If you look into deeper into the numbers would see that a part of Chicago is struggling but large parts are doing fine and many are booming.

But it doesn't matter what we think, it matters what PIA thinks.
 
LH658
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:49 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
behramjee wrote:
In any case, ORD was never in PK's plans to begin with whilst ISB-JFK nonstop has always been and still is. So just to clear the air, there is no chance what so ever of PK reinstating ORD for the time being as the focus is purely on JFK and for good reason too due to the market demand out of NYC being 4 times greater than ORD to PAK !


I wouldn't say JFK is a foregone conclusion. JFK has more ME3 capacity so competition would also be a lot higher compared to ORD. And PIA did fly to ORD for some time fairly recently:

Image

Image


One of my favorite PIA livery, seeing this route map of PIA brings back memories as well.
 
LH658
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:52 pm

It seems it will be to JFK, as PIA still has a slot there. Just wish PIA improved their IFE, Customer Service, Amenities,Efficiency, and leased a new aircraft.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3312
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:23 pm

LH658 wrote:
It seems it will be to JFK, as PIA still has a slot there. Just wish PIA improved their IFE, Customer Service, Amenities,Efficiency, and leased a new aircraft.


Have they been leasing their slot to someone else? If so, who? If not, how have they managed to hold onto it for several years since their last flight to JFK?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:54 pm

Less than 90 days to start new service to a potential new destination. Granted PK followed AI in starting Chicago service at the beginning but let’s talk numbers. Is there really a market outside of them desiring another route to the US outside of JFK.

I can say it’s not ORD unless by some miracle a call or email is received soon.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:28 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Didn't they fly via BCN the last time they flew to ORD? When did they pull out?


Yes. But the new gov't in Pakistan has finally got some sense and is aiming to go nonstop and eliminate the stops that PK flights to the US used to make in MAN and BCN. PIA could be very profitable on those routes but the stops hampered it. Those stops were usually made because of old security standards back in the day, but since that time, ISB has opened in the last year with much better security standards, resulting in BA resuming flights to ISB. So the aim is to get rid of the stops and make PK's flights to the US nonstop like YYZ is currently.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
muralir
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:42 pm

Even as an ORD fan I'd have to say ORD is extremely unlikely before NYC. As a second route if JFK is successful? Sure. But they'd have to be crazy to start Chicago before New York given the difference in passenger numbers.

Unless there's some factor we don't know about (cargo? Optimal route times? One of the PM's sons is moving to Chicago? :) It's highly unlikely to come before JFK.

That said, ORD-BCN via PK was always one of the most unique 5th freedom flights around. I was sorry to see it go (although I never took it).
 
chicawgo
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:48 pm

bravotango75 wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
bravotango75 wrote:
They should think about BOS, quite a few Indo-Paskitinis here, especially those attending BU, BC, Harvard. Chicago is a dying city...


In what metric? Record gdp? Record residential and commercial construction? Record leisure and business visitors? Record hotel occupancy and rooms? Record traffic at ORD? Record job openings? 3rd straight year of double digit drops in all violent crime?

Please enlighten us! Or mods should delete the troll post.


Hey, I like Chi-Town but the facts are the facts...
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/bre ... story.html


As others have mentioned, the population isn't telling the story of how the city is doing. There are indeed population shifts happening but business is booming if you stand to benefit at all from it.

With regard to the thread though, I definitely agree ORD is a long-shot
 
TryToFlySomeday
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:11 pm

ORD would be nice, but JFK seems more likely
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
jerseyewr777
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:13 am

PIA will resume New York with 3 weekly nonstop flights beginning in May 2020
 
behramjee
Posts: 5081
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:32 pm

jerseyewr777 wrote:
PIA will resume New York with 3 weekly nonstop flights beginning in May 2020


yes JFK-ISB nonstop officially confirmed now by PIA on twitter and as per this article which also quoted that https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2020/0 ... hts-to-us/
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:53 pm

behramjee wrote:
jerseyewr777 wrote:
PIA will resume New York with 3 weekly nonstop flights beginning in May 2020


yes JFK-ISB nonstop officially confirmed now by PIA on twitter and as per this article which also quoted that https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2020/0 ... hts-to-us/


Good to see, long time in the making. Especially exciting to finally see a nonstop between Pakistan and the US again after decades.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
LH658
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:27 pm

Congrats to PIA.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:46 pm

Good for PIA but is 3X really viable on JFK-ISB given all the ME3 competition? Perfect for retired VFR I guess.
 
LH658
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Good for PIA but is 3X really viable on JFK-ISB given all the ME3 competition? Perfect for retired VFR I guess.


What people said about BA resuming ISB, they also operate with 3 times a week. Though then again this is PIA, I rather take 1 stop option to Pakistan then fly on PIA until they have a good on board product.
 
KingB123
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:30 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:11 am

PIA is BILLIONS OF RUPEES in DEBT and a burden on the country. They need to sort their finances out first before flying to America.
King B
 
behramjee
Posts: 5081
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:30 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Good for PIA but is 3X really viable on JFK-ISB given all the ME3 competition? Perfect for retired VFR I guess.


From a financial stand point, it isnt viable according to me as my personal forecast is 72% SF with a B77L accumulating to an annual net loss of US$ -21m and an operating cash loss of $ -0.6m. The reason why my forecast is at 72% SF is because of the flight being ISB-JFK-ISB and not operating nonstop from LHE which has nearly double the p2p demand versus ISB on this route. Yes I have included connecting pax from KHI + LHE for this service into my forecast but it would have higher S/F easily if it operated from LHE itself.

However with regards to what type of pax fly PIA from YYZ in particular (they operate now 5 weekly) are:

1. Families who want the nonstop convenience now matter the price and lack of IFE

2. Senior citizens who also want the convenience of nonstop

3. Business class pax paying Premium Economy fare levels as now PK's J class seats are sold at PE levels for example YYZ KHI YYZ is US$ 2000 round trip for a 2006 vintage J class seat which reclines 160 degrees and has a 20 inch seat width + 60 inch pitch

4. Pakistani emigrants in YYZ, if the wife is flying alone to PAK without or without kids, vast majority opt for PK

5. Travel agent loyalty due to an attractive incentive commission schemes they have for agents in Canada

PK YYZ loads year round average over 75% despite it targeting only P2P traffic. Yes if it flew one stop via UK to YYZ, it would lose its entire appeal.

As far as MAN-PAK + LHR-LHE/ISB pax profile of PIA goes, all of the above points apply along with loyalty to help the state of Pak by flying the national carrier. For UK based Pakistani migrants this is a huge factor especially those bound to ISB and LHE as the KHI market for UK has all but given up on PIA when choosing a carrier to take to EU/UK.

On MAN-ISB/LHE + LHR-ISB/LHE, the above reasons are why PIA still holds more than 80% market share on these 2 high volume market segments.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:09 pm

I wouldn't usually rate the trustworthyness and safety of said airline any better than the likes of Iraq/Iran/Syria/Yemen/Afghanistan. They really should be allowed to fly to the US/EU.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3312
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:48 pm

Time to update the thread title!
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:06 pm

FSDan wrote:
Time to update the thread title!


Mods, please update the title.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
LH658
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: Pakistan to resume ORD in April 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:57 pm

behramjee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Good for PIA but is 3X really viable on JFK-ISB given all the ME3 competition? Perfect for retired VFR I guess.


From a financial stand point, it isnt viable according to me as my personal forecast is 72% SF with a B77L accumulating to an annual net loss of US$ -21m and an operating cash loss of $ -0.6m. The reason why my forecast is at 72% SF is because of the flight being ISB-JFK-ISB and not operating nonstop from LHE which has nearly double the p2p demand versus ISB on this route. Yes I have included connecting pax from KHI + LHE for this service into my forecast but it would have higher S/F easily if it operated from LHE itself.

However with regards to what type of pax fly PIA from YYZ in particular (they operate now 5 weekly) are:

1. Families who want the nonstop convenience now matter the price and lack of IFE

2. Senior citizens who also want the convenience of nonstop

3. Business class pax paying Premium Economy fare levels as now PK's J class seats are sold at PE levels for example YYZ KHI YYZ is US$ 2000 round trip for a 2006 vintage J class seat which reclines 160 degrees and has a 20 inch seat width + 60 inch pitch

4. Pakistani emigrants in YYZ, if the wife is flying alone to PAK without or without kids, vast majority opt for PK

5. Travel agent loyalty due to an attractive incentive commission schemes they have for agents in Canada

PK YYZ loads year round average over 75% despite it targeting only P2P traffic. Yes if it flew one stop via UK to YYZ, it would lose its entire appeal.

As far as MAN-PAK + LHR-LHE/ISB pax profile of PIA goes, all of the above points apply along with loyalty to help the state of Pak by flying the national carrier. For UK based Pakistani migrants this is a huge factor especially those bound to ISB and LHE as the KHI market for UK has all but given up on PIA when choosing a carrier to take to EU/UK.

On MAN-ISB/LHE + LHR-ISB/LHE, the above reasons are why PIA still holds more than 80% market share on these 2 high volume market segments.


I hope they increase the frequency soon, if the response of JFK flight resumption is positive.

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