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mjoelnir
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A321 P2F enters service

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:52 am

The first A321 P2F conversion, a frame for Qantas, MSN835 has [email protected] first test flight.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:13 pm

Now that is interesting. I know about the A320P2F, I didn't realize the A321s were already being converted. For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber
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N14AZ
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:30 pm

There is a picture of D-ANJA in the www but according to the forum rules I cannot post it here (it’s not that spectacular anyway. Being an ex-Onur-Air aircraft, the winglet has already the correct colour for its future operator...).

This article includes a picture of how she will look like once being painted:

Image
Source: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... om-vallair
 
AAMDanny
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:43 pm

A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Now that is interesting. I know about the A320P2F, I didn't realize the A321s were already being converted. For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


Been waiting on this for a while now, glad to see someone has made progress. Precision (down in Florida IIRC) cut first metal well over a year ago on their A321 prototype but still no roll out. IIRC no A320P2F has been completed yet and most of the orders are for the A321, so that was prioritized. At least one of the conversion programs is fairly complicated with the relocation of the L1 door.
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leleko747
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:54 pm

I wonder why it took so long to have freighter conversions for the A320 family. The Boeing 737 have been a freighter since a long time ago, with QC and converted versions of the B737-200 being available by the 70s if I remember well. The 737NG also took a while to be converted (not counting the 700C version, with side cargo door).
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
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VSMUT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:58 pm

leleko747 wrote:
I wonder why it took so long to have freighter conversions for the A320 family. The Boeing 737 have been a freighter since a long time ago, with QC and converted versions of the B737-200 being available by the 70s if I remember well. The 737NG also took a while to be converted (not counting the 700C version, with side cargo door).


High value of secondhand aircraft for feedstock. It was so prohibitively expensive to buy an A320 or 737NG for the conversion in the first place, that it made more sense just getting a much cheaper 737-300 or -400.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:58 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
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Channex757
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:05 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.

Irrelevant.

The containerised lower hold will be attractive for freight haulers who need a quick turn on overnights. The bins can easily be loaded if the freight or maybe just parcels is ready on the ramp in containers.
I can see the parcel haulers being interested in this new way of efficiently working.
 
amstone17
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:17 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.


It's not irrelevant. The issue is until now no one has had somethign 757 sized that's fully containerized top and bottom, now there is, and it will be popular. A lot of time is spent stacking freight in 737/757 bellies, even with the slide plates in some 757s. A fully containerized aircraft with just a small bulk hold for last minute additions will prove popular.
The A320P2F also has this capability. As the 757s run out of time and become too expensive to maintain, operators will enjoy the shift to an A321 that can be turned around much more quickly.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 pm

amstone17 wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.


It's not irrelevant. The issue is until now no one has had somethign 757 sized that's fully containerized top and bottom, now there is, and it will be popular. A lot of time is spent stacking freight in 737/757 bellies, even with the slide plates in some 757s. A fully containerized aircraft with just a small bulk hold for last minute additions will prove popular.
The A320P2F also has this capability. As the 757s run out of time and become too expensive to maintain, operators will enjoy the shift to an A321 that can be turned around much more quickly.


Also the A320-Family P2F has a near unlimited amount of spares for the next 30+ years. It is not only the container capacity that is a plus for the A321 over the 757. On top of that you have two sizes available with the same pilot type rating as well as with the same maintenance. So instead of having 737 and 757 NB freighters with different pilot type ratings and maintenance procedures you can have A320 and A321 freighters that are "the same" aircraft only different in cargo volume.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:41 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.

Irrelevant.

The containerised lower hold will be attractive for freight haulers who need a quick turn on overnights. The bins can easily be loaded if the freight or maybe just parcels is ready on the ramp in containers.
I can see the parcel haulers being interested in this new way of efficiently working.


It makes a difference going forward, but the market sure liked the 757 as a pure freighter and P2F. Granted there aren’t a ton of pax variants left for feed stock. But the age of the 321 makes it a good selection. The container option just sweetens the deal. If there would have been a demand 20 years ago Airbus would have developed a dedicated freighter. All that being said, the 757 and 321 aren’t really competitors given the 757 has been out of production now for 15 years. Anet folks really get hung up on containers. It’s only a part of the equation.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
AirbusA322
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:19 pm

VH-VWY and VH-VWZ are the next two for conversion and finish with Jetstar soon.
 
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:22 pm

How many freight operators demand a quick turn? UPS doesn't seem too concerned with the ability to load containers in the belly with all the 757s they fly. I wouldn't be surprised if they prefer bulk-loading just so they can pack in more freight.
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mxaxai
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:31 pm

Cool. One question though: Why does it have a German registration?
I know that there is a company in Dresden who do P2F conversions but I doubt that they have a second base in Singapore.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:09 pm

I agree that high resale values of the A320 and in particular A321 stopped this from happening. I speculate the A321NEO economics is freeing up frames at values that tip the scale.

I also agree the MASSIVE parts availability virtually guaranteed for 30+ years on the A32x family makes this an attractive conversion. The KC-135, 747NG freighters, and P-8 remove any worry on the CFM engines, excluding the absolute oldest variants.

For the V2500, I speculate that IAE/Pratt was aggressive on the Embraer KC-390 bid to ensure customers know parts will be available long term.

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Now that is interesting. I know about the A320P2F, I didn't realize the A321s were already being converted. For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


Been waiting on this for a while now, glad to see someone has made progress. Precision (down in Florida IIRC) cut first metal well over a year ago on their A321 prototype but still no roll out. IIRC no A320P2F has been completed yet and most of the orders are for the A321, so that was prioritized. At least one of the conversion programs is fairly complicated with the relocation of the L1 door.

It was destined to happen.

I'm curious as to the age of the converted aircraft (in cycles/hours).

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Spacepope
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I agree that high resale values of the A320 and in particular A321 stopped this from happening. I speculate the A321NEO economics is freeing up frames at values that tip the scale.

I also agree the MASSIVE parts availability virtually guaranteed for 30+ years on the A32x family makes this an attractive conversion. The KC-135, 747NG freighters, and P-8 remove any worry on the CFM engines, excluding the absolute oldest variants.

For the V2500, I speculate that IAE/Pratt was aggressive on the Embraer KC-390 bid to ensure customers know parts will be available long term.

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Now that is interesting. I know about the A320P2F, I didn't realize the A321s were already being converted. For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


Been waiting on this for a while now, glad to see someone has made progress. Precision (down in Florida IIRC) cut first metal well over a year ago on their A321 prototype but still no roll out. IIRC no A320P2F has been completed yet and most of the orders are for the A321, so that was prioritized. At least one of the conversion programs is fairly complicated with the relocation of the L1 door.

It was destined to happen.

I'm curious as to the age of the converted aircraft (in cycles/hours).

Lightsaber


I am curious too, and hope there is a way to figure that out. Almost like a D-INFO page. This one is LN 835, and man of its early A321 stablemates have gone to the breakers already. Australia may have longer than average stage lengths so as long as its cycle count is good, it's not gonna hit bingo hours anytime soon. Part of me watching some of the recent P2F conversions is happy that these airframes are set to get every last bit of life squeezed out of them.
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danipawa
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:00 am

2 ex Thomas cook going to convertion too..
 
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:20 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.


Maybe the reason why they were soo famous back then were because there is no competition?
Last time I checked Airbus or other manufacturers back in the day doesn't have anything close to B757F.

I'm sure the LD3-45 container would be extremely useful for them for faster turn around.
 
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:28 am

So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.
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juliuswong
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:37 am

danipawa wrote:
2 ex Thomas cook going to convertion too..

That would be MSN 1238 G-DHJH, close to 20 years young. Can't find the other one.
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juliuswong
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:47 am

Antaras wrote:
So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.

I think it is more of Airbus line is sold out for pax version, can't fit in cargo version. With them changing A380 production lines to A321's, it can be considered.
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:24 am

I agree A321F conversion is bound to be successful. E-commerce is taking off everywhere. Feed stock of 757 is disappearing. A32x family will have spares and trained pilots for the foreseeable future. Bins downstairs are a plus given the E-commerce industry is already so fond of containers.

juliuswong wrote:
Antaras wrote:
So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.

I think it is more of Airbus line is sold out for pax version, can't fit in cargo version. With them changing A380 production lines to A321's, it can be considered.

Airbus said TLS will not increase production as A321 facility is brought online. Of course they could change their minds later, but that's the current plan.
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:33 am

N14AZ wrote:
There is a picture of D-ANJA in the www but according to the forum rules I cannot post it here (it’s not that spectacular anyway. Being an ex-Onur-Air aircraft, the winglet has already the correct colour for its future operator...).

This article includes a picture of how she will look like once being painted:

Image
Source: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... om-vallair


Thank God, hopefully it will be used east coast --> Perth. Road freight times have recently blown out to 2 weeks which is ridiculous.
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:28 am

exFWAOONW wrote:
How many freight operators demand a quick turn? UPS doesn't seem too concerned with the ability to load containers in the belly with all the 757s they fly. I wouldn't be surprised if they prefer bulk-loading just so they can pack in more freight.

There are still plenty of routes in North America and Europe where integrators make a stop on the way to or from the hub. Faster (off)load times at every stop translate into later acceptance and earlier delivery times.

Also, in Europe (and perhaps elsewhere), integrators have been experiencing with operating short hops within the night sort hours rather than have all their planes sit idle for 4, 5 hours at night. Having more fully containerized narrowbody aircraft can only increase the number of such flights.
 
sciing
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:41 am

mxaxai wrote:
Cool. One question though: Why does it have a German registration?
I know that there is a company in Dresden who do P2F conversions but I doubt that they have a second base in Singapore.

EFW - Elbe Flugzeug Werft Dresden is partly owned by ST Aerospace Singapore(55%) and Airbus.
The program seems to be controlled and engineered by EFW, but work is done in Singapore and later China.
Dresden build some new hangars but seems to be fully loaded with A330P2F, MROs (mainly heavy checks) and refurbish (for example Qantas A380s).
 
ei146
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 am

mxaxai wrote:
Cool. One question though: Why does it have a German registration?
I know that there is a company in Dresden who do P2F conversions but I doubt that they have a second base in Singapore.


ST Aerospace owns the majority of shares of Elbe Flugzeugwerke Dresden. The minority owner is Airbus.
Source (in German, sorry): https://www.dnn.de/Dresden/Lokales/ST-A ... zeugwerken

So probably the official owner of the conversion program and type certificate (once it is issued) is EFW Dresden.
 
sciing
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:11 am

Antaras wrote:
So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.

EFW/ST is not a really a 3rd party group.
This is an „official“ P2F program supported by Airbus.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:22 am

Antaras wrote:
So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.


The first frame we are talking about here is the official Airbus conversion. Airbus, in the guise of EFW and STS aviation group do work together on this conversion.
 
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qf789
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:26 am

BoeingVista wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
There is a picture of D-ANJA in the www but according to the forum rules I cannot post it here (it’s not that spectacular anyway. Being an ex-Onur-Air aircraft, the winglet has already the correct colour for its future operator...).

This article includes a picture of how she will look like once being painted:

Image
Source: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... om-vallair


Thank God, hopefully it will be used east coast --> Perth. Road freight times have recently blown out to 2 weeks which is ridiculous.


Well considering the only road on the Nullabor was closed for a good part of a week due to a bushfire is that a surprise. These A321 freighters will be used to replace its existing fleet
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debonair
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:33 am


Notice door L1 on the port side has been re-positioned further forward towards the cockpit


So, I guess the lavatory behind the cockpit has been removed - but where is the lavatory for the crew now? Also, the L1 door looks very small, more like an escape hatch - or is it still the same standard A321 door, just relocated?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:01 am

debonair wrote:


Great, someone has already uploaded it into the database.

debonair wrote:
Also, the L1 door looks very small, more like an escape hatch - or is it still the same standard A321 door, just relocated?

No, I think you are right (example pic of an A 321 from the same angle/distance:
 
VSMUT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:37 am

N14AZ wrote:
debonair wrote:
Also, the L1 door looks very small, more like an escape hatch - or is it still the same standard A321 door, just relocated?

No, I think you are right (example pic of an A 321 from the same angle/distance:


That's the case on at least some DHL 757s too.
 
Amiga500
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:52 am

Def a smaller door.

I'm mildly surprised its worthwhile for them to remove all the other doors (after making space for the large cargo door) - I know they'll save a bit of weight - but the rework cost must surely be in the hundreds of thousands - and the recertification cost probably another factor of 10 on that.
 
Clydenairways
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:55 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Def a smaller door.

I'm mildly surprised its worthwhile for them to remove all the other doors (after making space for the large cargo door) - I know they'll save a bit of weight - but the rework cost must surely be in the hundreds of thousands - and the recertification cost probably another factor of 10 on that.


Maybe it enables an additional pallet position to be accommodated?
 
Amiga500
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:21 pm

Possibly - I don't know how the doors would impact on the floor rails to that extent though? [are the doors much thicker than the fuselage frames?]
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:49 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Def a smaller door.

I'm mildly surprised its worthwhile for them to remove all the other doors (after making space for the large cargo door) - I know they'll save a bit of weight - but the rework cost must surely be in the hundreds of thousands - and the recertification cost probably another factor of 10 on that.


Maybe it enables an additional pallet position to be accommodated?


There's also definitely weight and maintenance savings in the future life of the aircraft. If 737 eyebrow windows are worth removing, several large doors also are. .
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ei146
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:00 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Possibly - I don't know how the doors would impact on the floor rails to that extent though? [are the doors much thicker than the fuselage frames?]

Are the rails the real problem? How about getting in and out if the space in front of the door is occupied by a Palette?
 
Amiga500
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:27 pm

ei146 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Possibly - I don't know how the doors would impact on the floor rails to that extent though? [are the doors much thicker than the fuselage frames?]

Are the rails the real problem? How about getting in and out if the space in front of the door is occupied by a Palette?


I'm not suggesting using the door - just wondering why its worthwhile to remove it*. It obviously must be as they wouldn't do it otherwise - but I don't understand the rationale and I'd like to know.

*as every airframe that will ever be converted will come with these doors.
 
azz767
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:41 pm

juliuswong wrote:
danipawa wrote:
2 ex Thomas cook going to convertion too..

That would be MSN 1238 G-DHJH, close to 20 years young. Can't find the other one.



G-NIKO, also close to 20 years old. Although according to Jethros, this is due a C check before conversion
 
VSMUT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:56 pm

I found this on the small entry door, from 2 topics on the 757F which features the same:

viewtopic.php?t=772091

viewtopic.php?t=407605

From the first topic:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
The aircraft pictured is a 757-200PF (Package Freighter) specially built for overnight parcel service by companies such as UPS. The smaller cockpit door, closer to the nose allowed to relocate the separation between cockpit and main deck cargo hold to gain enough space in the main deck cargo hold to carry another container of paying parcels. As far as I can tell, only UPS received new-built -200PF. However I seem to remember that another carrier, perhaps ET converted one or more aircraft to such configuration.


Given the similarities between the 757 and the A321, I would suspect the same goes for the A321P2F.
 
Scorpio
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:47 pm

So how many A321 freighter conversions have been ordered so far, and by whom?
 
Northpole
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:49 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
How many freight operators demand a quick turn? UPS doesn't seem too concerned with the ability to load containers in the belly with all the 757s they fly. I wouldn't be surprised if they prefer bulk-loading just so they can pack in more freight.


How many freight operators would rather have their airplanes in the air instead of on the ground ? How can the number of airplanes in the fleet be reduced by pre-loading containers and reducing the time on the ground ... planes makes money in the air not on the ground being on or off-loaded - thats my thoughts
 
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FlyRow
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:50 pm

Damm it takes a lot of work for the A321 to be able to cary Fish.
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Amiga500
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:55 pm

Northpole wrote:
exFWAOONW wrote:
How many freight operators demand a quick turn? UPS doesn't seem too concerned with the ability to load containers in the belly with all the 757s they fly. I wouldn't be surprised if they prefer bulk-loading just so they can pack in more freight.


How many freight operators would rather have their airplanes in the air instead of on the ground ? How can the number of airplanes in the fleet be reduced by pre-loading containers and reducing the time on the ground ... planes makes money in the air not on the ground being on or off-loaded - thats my thoughts



I would imagine that containers would also reduce the chances of damage being done to shipments.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2715
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:00 pm

On containerised vs loose loaded bulks

The B757-200SF conversion was offered with a containerised lower-deck, and the original customer (DHL) actually ordered them in that configuration. I believe it was a Telair conversion, and specially made ULDs were designed and purchased for the purpose. It then transpired that the investment in dedicated GSE at a large number of hubs and gateways would make the proposition uneconomical. Since then, and this is more than 20 years ago, the GSE is now in service at much larger number of airports, as they're used on the A320 series. This makes the proposition economically viable again, and there are a large number of advantages;

* The ability to do a finer sort, by having more handling units available. This will allow smaller stations to build ULDs carrying only freight for a single destination, thereby decreasing the amount of freight to be sorted at a hub
* It will allow faster un-loading and loading times, which means inbound freight reaches the sort faster and the cut-off point for outbound can be brought closer to STD, both of which will give the hub a larger window for sorting
* It will decrease the chances of misconnection, as less freight has to be resorted and more can be transported directly from one aircraft to another at a hub
* It will allow for quicker turn-around times at transit stops, not only because the un-loading/loading process is faster, but also because the increased number of ULDs available will allow for a more "clever" loading, meaning the transit stop will have fewer ULDs to un-load and load.

On the re-positioned L1 door

This option is also carried out on the 757PCF, which allows for 15 full positions instead of 14 and a half on the SF. It's about providing more volume, and the benefit thereof outweighs the cost of conversion. The door can be made smaller, as it's only required for evacuation of 5 people or so. The slide is also removed, and replaced by a inertial reel; rules are different when you're only carrying crew and not fare paying passengers. I imagine the FWD law will be relocated to where the R1 door is, as it's done on the 757PCF. There will be no galley as such, probably just a water boiler and perhaps an oven.

On doors

All exit doors apart from L1 are usually blocked on converted freighters, as it is cost prohibitive to plug such large holes. The inside of the doors are stripped and they are covered with the cargo hold lining. The doors can be reactivated, as DHL did with a few of their 757s for the purpose of carrying grooms on horse charters.
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ILNFlyer
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:54 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Def a smaller door.

I'm mildly surprised its worthwhile for them to remove all the other doors (after making space for the large cargo door) - I know they'll save a bit of weight - but the rework cost must surely be in the hundreds of thousands - and the recertification cost probably another factor of 10 on that.


A cargo door placed on a 767 conversion is $1 Million +
 
Northpole
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:03 pm

B777LRF wrote:
On containerised vs loose loaded bulks

The B757-200SF conversion was offered with a containerised lower-deck, and the original customer (DHL) actually ordered them in that configuration. I believe it was a Telair conversion, and specially made ULDs were designed and purchased for the purpose. It then transpired that the investment in dedicated GSE at a large number of hubs and gateways would make the proposition uneconomical. Since then, and this is more than 20 years ago, the GSE is now in service at much larger number of airports, as they're used on the A320 series. This makes the proposition economically viable again, and there are a large number of advantages;

* The ability to do a finer sort, by having more handling units available. This will allow smaller stations to build ULDs carrying only freight for a single destination, thereby decreasing the amount of freight to be sorted at a hub
* It will allow faster un-loading and loading times, which means inbound freight reaches the sort faster and the cut-off point for outbound can be brought closer to STD, both of which will give the hub a larger window for sorting
* It will decrease the chances of misconnection, as less freight has to be resorted and more can be transported directly from one aircraft to another at a hub
* It will allow for quicker turn-around times at transit stops, not only because the un-loading/loading process is faster, but also because the increased number of ULDs available will allow for a more "clever" loading, meaning the transit stop will have fewer ULDs to un-load and load.

Totally agree > furthermore if it is ok (?)- I would like to add that a lot of (air)-cargo originates - or have a final destination - far away from the airport from which the cargo is being transported by air -airlifted - where a truck-transport is used. An example from my own country : Aircargo from the three major airports in Sweden ARN - GOT and MMA/MMX to overseas destinations like North America- South America -Middle East - Far East and Australia/NZ is not flown out of Sweden - the cargo is consolidated and containerized and then beeing sent by special trucks( overnight ) with equipment enabling the containers to be rolled on and off the truck for quick unloading/loading. From the major European airports like Frankfurt- Schipol /AMS - Luxembourg with lots of international connections the cargo is then airlifted.
I would assume that the construction of future airplanes takes the measurements of the different " airfreight-containers" into consideration since a manual handling of not only cargo but also luggage belongs to the past.





On the re-positioned L1 door

This option is also carried out on the 757PCF, which allows for 15 full positions instead of 14 and a half on the SF. It's about providing more volume, and the benefit thereof outweighs the cost of conversion. The door can be made smaller, as it's only required for evacuation of 5 people or so. The slide is also removed, and replaced by a inertial reel; rules are different when you're only carrying crew and not fare paying passengers. I imagine the FWD law will be relocated to where the R1 door is, as it's done on the 757PCF. There will be no galley as such, probably just a water boiler and perhaps an oven.

On doors

All exit doors apart from L1 are usually blocked on converted freighters, as it is cost prohibitive to plug such large holes. The inside of the doors are stripped and they are covered with the cargo hold lining. The doors can be reactivated, as DHL did with a few of their 757s for the purpose of carrying grooms on horse charters.
 
Northpole
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:11 pm

To ;B777LRF > sorry for putting my text in the middle of yours - my bad - plse. accept my apologies .
 
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Revelation
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:07 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Damm it takes a lot of work for the A321 to be able to cary Fish.

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