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B777LRF
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:12 pm

Northpole wrote:
To ;B777LRF > sorry for putting my text in the middle of yours - my bad - plse. accept my apologies .


No worries mate :)
Signature. You just read one.
 
AAMDanny
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:45 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.


It may be a popular freighter, with great range and lift capabilities, but in the eyes of the freight companies ULD's are the way to go as they are quicker to get on and off aircraft, and also importantly, transferred onto other aircraft. So if you can have containers downstairs as well as upstairs, its a bonus.

It's also worth mentioning, the B757 has been out of production for a few years now, and although she will fly for many more years as a freighter, eventually the spares inventory and cost of running the type will become uneconomical. So what can replace a B757F? The closest match would be a A321F, (or maybe a B737-900F... if the B737-900 can be converted into a freighter).
 
N91
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:49 am

debonair wrote:

Notice door L1 on the port side has been re-positioned further forward towards the cockpit


So, I guess the lavatory behind the cockpit has been removed - but where is the lavatory for the crew now? Also, the L1 door looks very small, more like an escape hatch - or is it still the same standard A321 door, just relocated?


https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/filea ... _pager.pdf

You can see the new layout on page 3 of this document.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:16 am

qf789 wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
There is a picture of D-ANJA in the www but according to the forum rules I cannot post it here (it’s not that spectacular anyway. Being an ex-Onur-Air aircraft, the winglet has already the correct colour for its future operator...).

This article includes a picture of how she will look like once being painted:

Image
Source: https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... om-vallair


Thank God, hopefully it will be used east coast --> Perth. Road freight times have recently blown out to 2 weeks which is ridiculous.


Well considering the only road on the Nullabor was closed for a good part of a week due to a bushfire is that a surprise. These A321 freighters will be used to replace its existing fleet


It was closed for the best part of 2 weeks actually, but road freight times had been drifting before that. They will be used to add capacity to the existing fleet.
BV
 
airzona11
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:22 am

Great looking plane.

AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


These aren’t new builds, so I’m not sure that is driving demand. If FX or UPS buys a 100 for conversion maybe, but until then, cycles/cost/availability is what will drive demand and conversion. For the A321 the hgw will be in higher demand, but those aren’t cheap.
 
djm18
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:51 am

lightsaber wrote:
For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


How is this done in the US?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:15 am

djm18 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


How is this done in the US?


FAA publicly publishes data for all N registered aircraft:
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Put in the N number registration without the N
Also a date range is required.



Look at the latest maintenance report, it will have cycles and hours. Now, some aircraft will go as long as 15 months without reportable maintenance, but in a freight conversion, so much is found you will know exactly the hours and cycles.

For example N905DL, the oldest DL N registered MD-80, put in registration number "905DL", I used 01/01/2019 to 01/23/2020 and found the last event on 02/18/2019 (it is probable the aircraft is retired and the registration just needs to be cancelled) :
63078 cycles
82541 hours

Lightsaber

late edit: If you use longer timeframes, you can determine average aircraft utilization. If you look at the MD-80 and 717 fleets at DL, for example, you will see very low utilization. Look at JetBlue A321s and you will find very high utilization.

I use airfleets to find N numbers:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/exploitation.htm
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:36 am

Revelation wrote:
I agree A321F conversion is bound to be successful. E-commerce is taking off everywhere. Feed stock of 757 is disappearing. A32x family will have spares and trained pilots for the foreseeable future. Bins downstairs are a plus given the E-commerce industry is already so fond of containers.

juliuswong wrote:
Antaras wrote:
So sad to realize that Airbus doesn't provide an official A321F that operators have to find a third-party group (IAI, GECAS,...) for a conversion.

I think it is more of Airbus line is sold out for pax version, can't fit in cargo version. With them changing A380 production lines to A321's, it can be considered.

Airbus said TLS will not increase production as A321 facility is brought online. Of course they could change their minds later, but that's the current plan.

I think Airbus will have to increase production. In general, freight has lower utilization, so purchase (fixed) costs matter more. I could see factory fresh A321Fs, but not for ten years. But maybe not, e-commerce is driving the market and low utilization seems to favor conversions:

Note: There are other A321 conversions in work:

https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... ion-market

I am of the opinion that Aircraft need 20,000+ cycles remaining on the limit of Validity and 50,000+ hours to justify a P2F conversion. This is why I want to know the age of this aircraft.

Please note the above link expects 757 stock to be sufficient for 4 to 5 more years. So while not an issue yet, the link notes a 757 stock is with fewer than 28,000 cycles (or 22,000 remaining on LOV out of 50,000).
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B757236GT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:48 pm

Long time lurker but this is a thread i have particular interest in. During my time at Airbus we did look at the A321F new build in around 2003-2004 as with the A300 pretty much dead and buried it risked us not having a freighter in the range, sadly the idea was killed off as at the time the market was buying A319s and A320 pax frames doing an A321F wasn't seen to be a good use of resources so it was shelved. The other problem is many of the cargo airlines had bought what they needed from the end of line 757s so it kind of was almost a stillborn idea but i'd like to think some of the work we did over 15 years ago is being used now. How times change!

Ive also just had a look at the 757 feedstock and i count around 30 or so frames outside of the US that at the moment could still become freighter candidates.Obviously this list will go down depending upon whether airlines decide to sell.
8 Tui (Already allocated for freighter conversion)
4 Air Contractors (Again likely for conversion as they are fairly young)
3 Uzbekistan
4 Air Astana
2 Jet 2 (These are two younger frames from 1994 and 1996. The others are over 30 and looked to be destined for scrap)
9 Icelandair (I know they have more but at a rough guess on age and a based utilisation which could be used, but i would think these may run on as pax aircraft for quite a long time)

Obviously there are more marked as in storage or in transfer between airlines so its hard to be 100% accurate.

I count 59 frames in use outside of the US excluding the Condor 300s so apart from the American majors i cant see there being lots more to come. It all depends on how long the US3 keep theirs going but i think 5 years could be a lttle optomistic of course if we knew what was going to happen we would have all won millions on the lottery.

Also i note the of those undergoing conversion i flew on three of them when they were only 2 weeks or so old G-DHJH, G-NIKO and G-MIDC.
 
dstblj52
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:51 pm

B757236GT wrote:
Long time lurker but this is a thread i have particular interest in. During my time at Airbus we did look at the A321F new build in around 2003-2004 as with the A300 pretty much dead and buried it risked us not having a freighter in the range, sadly the idea was killed off as at the time the market was buying A319s and A320 pax frames doing an A321F wasn't seen to be a good use of resources so it was shelved. The other problem is many of the cargo airlines had bought what they needed from the end of line 757s so it kind of was almost a stillborn idea but i'd like to think some of the work we did over 15 years ago is being used now. How times change!

Ive also just had a look at the 757 feedstock and i count around 30 or so frames outside of the US that at the moment could still become freighter candidates.Obviously this list will go down depending upon whether airlines decide to sell.
8 Tui (Already allocated for freighter conversion)
4 Air Contractors (Again likely for conversion as they are fairly young)
3 Uzbekistan
4 Air Astana
2 Jet 2 (These are two younger frames from 1994 and 1996. The others are over 30 and looked to be destined for scrap)
9 Icelandair (I know they have more but at a rough guess on age and a based utilisation which could be used, but i would think these may run on as pax aircraft for quite a long time)

Obviously there are more marked as in storage or in transfer between airlines so its hard to be 100% accurate.

I count 59 frames in use outside of the US excluding the Condor 300s so apart from the American majors i cant see there being lots more to come. It all depends on how long the US3 keep theirs going but i think 5 years could be a lttle optomistic of course if we knew what was going to happen we would have all won millions on the lottery.

Also i note the of those undergoing conversion i flew on three of them when they were only 2 weeks or so old G-DHJH, G-NIKO and G-MIDC.

And we know delta tends to fly its aircraft till their completely used up, so the largest of the US3 757 fleet is likely only going to be useable as spare parts. So really we have the ones you listed but I would point out that the 3 from Uzbekistan and possibly air Astana (they seem to have a better than expected reputation), likely have imperfect records and most likely will require more work to get into service probably pushing those it the spare parts category as well.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 pm

B757236GT wrote:
Long time lurker but this is a thread i have particular interest in. During my time at Airbus we did look at the A321F new build in around 2003-2004 as with the A300 pretty much dead and buried it risked us not having a freighter in the range, sadly the idea was killed off as at the time the market was buying A319s and A320 pax frames doing an A321F wasn't seen to be a good use of resources so it was shelved. The other problem is many of the cargo airlines had bought what they needed from the end of line 757s so it kind of was almost a stillborn idea but i'd like to think some of the work we did over 15 years ago is being used now. How times change!

Ive also just had a look at the 757 feedstock and i count around 30 or so frames outside of the US that at the moment could still become freighter candidates.Obviously this list will go down depending upon whether airlines decide to sell.
8 Tui (Already allocated for freighter conversion)
4 Air Contractors (Again likely for conversion as they are fairly young)
3 Uzbekistan
4 Air Astana
2 Jet 2 (These are two younger frames from 1994 and 1996. The others are over 30 and looked to be destined for scrap)
9 Icelandair (I know they have more but at a rough guess on age and a based utilisation which could be used, but i would think these may run on as pax aircraft for quite a long time)

Obviously there are more marked as in storage or in transfer between airlines so its hard to be 100% accurate.

I count 59 frames in use outside of the US excluding the Condor 300s so apart from the American majors i cant see there being lots more to come. It all depends on how long the US3 keep theirs going but i think 5 years could be a lttle optomistic of course if we knew what was going to happen we would have all won millions on the lottery.

Also i note the of those undergoing conversion i flew on three of them when they were only 2 weeks or so old G-DHJH, G-NIKO and G-MIDC.

Thanks for posting, and thanks for doing all the research on the 757 feedstock!

I think this confirms what Lightsaber wrote that there is a few years more feedstock out there for 757 conversions.

So it's interesting to consider when the 'tipping point' where A321 conversions will be favored happens.

757 pros: incumbent in many big fleets, still has good spares and crew availability, proven ability to carry fish

A321 pros: more modern systems, big and growing fleet, containers below deck

Seems as 757 crews and spares become less available there will have to be a move to A321 especially for new market entrants.
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TheWorm123
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:36 pm

B757236GT wrote:
Long time lurker but this is a thread i have particular interest in. During my time at Airbus we did look at the A321F new build in around 2003-2004 as with the A300 pretty much dead and buried it risked us not having a freighter in the range, sadly the idea was killed off as at the time the market was buying A319s and A320 pax frames doing an A321F wasn't seen to be a good use of resources so it was shelved. The other problem is many of the cargo airlines had bought what they needed from the end of line 757s so it kind of was almost a stillborn idea but i'd like to think some of the work we did over 15 years ago is being used now. How times change!

Ive also just had a look at the 757 feedstock and i count around 30 or so frames outside of the US that at the moment could still become freighter candidates.Obviously this list will go down depending upon whether airlines decide to sell.
8 Tui (Already allocated for freighter conversion)
4 Air Contractors (Again likely for conversion as they are fairly young)
3 Uzbekistan
4 Air Astana
2 Jet 2 (These are two younger frames from 1994 and 1996. The others are over 30 and looked to be destined for scrap)
9 Icelandair (I know they have more but at a rough guess on age and a based utilisation which could be used, but i would think these may run on as pax aircraft for quite a long time)

Obviously there are more marked as in storage or in transfer between airlines so its hard to be 100% accurate.

I count 59 frames in use outside of the US excluding the Condor 300s so apart from the American majors i cant see there being lots more to come. It all depends on how long the US3 keep theirs going but i think 5 years could be a lttle optomistic of course if we knew what was going to happen we would have all won millions on the lottery.

Also i note the of those undergoing conversion i flew on three of them when they were only 2 weeks or so old G-DHJH, G-NIKO and G-MIDC.


I believe a few more Jet2 757’s are on their way out this summer, ex-TCX A321’s are due this month and G-LSAG has already gone to scrap.
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I think Airbus will have to increase production. In general, freight has lower utilization, so purchase (fixed) costs matter more. I could see factory fresh A321Fs, but not for ten years. But maybe not, e-commerce is driving the market and low utilization seems to favor conversions:

Note: There are other A321 conversions in work:

https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... ion-market

I am of the opinion that Aircraft need 20,000+ cycles remaining on the limit of Validity and 50,000+ hours to justify a P2F conversion. This is why I want to know the age of this aircraft.

Please note the above link expects 757 stock to be sufficient for 4 to 5 more years. So while not an issue yet, the link notes a 757 stock is with fewer than 28,000 cycles (or 22,000 remaining on LOV out of 50,000).

Yes, it's a very good article not just about A321 but about all the conversion activity going on.

One part I found interesting:

Therefore, the main focus of the conversion is on strengthening the airframe—especially the main deck’s floor grid—using partial reinforcements and the installation of new and stronger structural parts and assemblies, says the IAI source. The company’s approach in the medium and large segments is to replace the main floor structure. In the small aircraft segment, it reinforces the existing structure.

This suggests to me that IAI already is comfortable replacing the floor structure during conversion, and would approach a 777W conversion by replacing the floor structure as well. It's a question that gets asked a lot on anet...

Also found interesting the comment that the 757 conversion market will wind down despite still having ample feed stock.

Portland, Oregon-based Precision Aircraft began in 2002 with developing a Boeing 757-200 conversion. It was certified in 2005. Since then, 115 have been delivered to 17 operators, including DHL and Chinese carriers.

The production rate stands at 11 757s per year, including sites in the U.S. and China. McCarthy predicts this rate will decrease in 4-5 years, despite ample feedstock. There are an estimated 200 757s with fewer than 28,000 cycles, which makes them conversion candidates, thanks to the 50,000-cycle potential (known as limit of validity), says McCarthy.

Presumably this means in the size category A321 will have better economics than 757, presumably because the focus going forward is on e-commerce and not so much on fish.
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WIederling
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
This suggests to me that IAI already is comfortable replacing the floor structure during conversion, and would approach a 777W conversion by replacing the floor structure as well. It's a question that gets asked a lot on anet...

Did I mangle the quoting? whatever.

some time ago I found this pdf relating to work at EFW:
A330 P2F and not A321:
https://www.stengg.com/media/30981/a330-300-200-p2f.pdf page 3

nicely shows the structure replaced.
I suppose the A320/1 conversions proceed in about the same way?
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danipawa
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:29 pm

so how many orders so far?
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:17 pm

How many 321's are viable conversion candidates at this point?
 
a2b7
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I agree A321F conversion is bound to be successful. E-commerce is taking off everywhere. Feed stock of 757 is disappearing. A32x family will have spares and trained pilots for the foreseeable future. Bins downstairs are a plus given the E-commerce industry is already so fond of containers.

juliuswong wrote:
I think it is more of Airbus line is sold out for pax version, can't fit in cargo version. With them changing A380 production lines to A321's, it can be considered.

Airbus said TLS will not increase production as A321 facility is brought online. Of course they could change their minds later, but that's the current plan.

I think Airbus will have to increase production. In general, freight has lower utilization, so purchase (fixed) costs matter more. I could see factory fresh A321Fs, but not for ten years. But maybe not, e-commerce is driving the market and low utilization seems to favor conversions:

Note: There are other A321 conversions in work:

https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... ion-market

I am of the opinion that Aircraft need 20,000+ cycles remaining on the limit of Validity and 50,000+ hours to justify a P2F conversion. This is why I want to know the age of this aircraft.

Please note the above link expects 757 stock to be sufficient for 4 to 5 more years. So while not an issue yet, the link notes a 757 stock is with fewer than 28,000 cycles (or 22,000 remaining on LOV out of 50,000).

lightsaber, I think the 20000+ cycles and 50000+ seem to be pretty close.

According to planespotters.net, MSN 835 was registered as G-MIDC until Nov 2010. G-INFO says that it had 31897 flight hours on 31 Dec 2009. That's after 11 years 7 months in service. Since then it has been active for about 8 years more for bmi, Onur Air and Zargosjet. If it had it similar utilization during that time, it should have around 54000 flight hours by now or 76000 left. Regarding flight cycles, if we take Lufthansa's A320 as a reference, which consume the 60000 cycles in about 30 years, it should have at most 40000 flight cycles.

However some A321s undergoing conversion may have slightly less than 50000 hours left. Consider this post viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412813&start=100#p21628803
a2b7 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Some reading stuff:
(Lessons learned) https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... -1664-3_42

A321 stuff, trade offs into service intervals. ( extended )
https://www.ajw-group.com/storage/downl ... gement.pdf

results/requirements on p12 ff.
48,000 FC/96,000 FH" seems to be a lot nearer the optimax of value per money spent.

Thank you very much for posting the links. The article from MRO Management was a nice read.
What I found particularly interesting was that the first A321 to reach the DSG FH limit was MSN 677 in June 2013 (Thomas Cook back then) and the first to reach the DSG FC limit was expected to be MSN 1356 (Asiana) in January 2017 - both when they only were 16 years old. Coincidentally MSN 677 is among the A321 acquired by Vallair for P2F conversion.

Additional sources: planespotters.net, Vallair News 2018 Apr 25 https://www.vallair.aero/news-events.php

MSN 677 already had 60000 flight hours in June 2013, and planespotters.net says that it still was with Thomas Cook for about 1.5 years more -> est. 65625 flight hours. Then it was in service with flyCAA for about 2.5 years. If its utilization there was similar, it should have around 75000 flight hours, if the utilization was only half, only about 70300.
 
QF744ER
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:09 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I agree that high resale values of the A320 and in particular A321 stopped this from happening. I speculate the A321NEO economics is freeing up frames at values that tip the scale.

I also agree the MASSIVE parts availability virtually guaranteed for 30+ years on the A32x family makes this an attractive conversion. The KC-135, 747NG freighters, and P-8 remove any worry on the CFM engines, excluding the absolute oldest variants.

For the V2500, I speculate that IAE/Pratt was aggressive on the Embraer KC-390 bid to ensure customers know parts will be available long term.

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Now that is interesting. I know about the A320P2F, I didn't realize the A321s were already being converted. For US registered frames, I know how to look up hours/cycles, is there a way to find out how many hours/cycles this frame has on it?

Lightsaber


Been waiting on this for a while now, glad to see someone has made progress. Precision (down in Florida IIRC) cut first metal well over a year ago on their A321 prototype but still no roll out. IIRC no A320P2F has been completed yet and most of the orders are for the A321, so that was prioritized. At least one of the conversion programs is fairly complicated with the relocation of the L1 door.

It was destined to happen.

I'm curious as to the age of the converted aircraft (in cycles/hours).

Lightsaber


Lightsaber...there was a thread of here not too long back which specifically mentioned this first A321 frame undergoing conversion and from memory it was close to its original LOV, but had undergone a life extension program. Can’t remember if it was hours/cycles but it definitely held a record, she’s no ‘spring chicken’.

Might have been encapsulated in that thread about 30 year old A320 which remain in service, maybe do a search for some of those early LH A320 regos D-AIPB etc and see what it yields.

Apologies I can’t be more specific.
 
B757236GT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:56 pm

TheWorm123 wrote:

I believe a few more Jet2 757’s are on their way out this summer, ex-TCX A321’s are due this month and G-LSAG has already gone to scrap.


I had a chance to look over it and it doesn't show its age at all. While it has some age to it i would never guess its age especially when you compare it with some others there that are alot newer (some of the a319s) it looks nearly new. I was told by some of the guys there that it almost looked liked it had been washed very recently as it arrived pretty much immaculate in terms of cleanliness of the fuselage. They said the same with the 737s from Jet2.

One thing to bear in mind is some of the early 757Fs are coming up for renewal. DHL have some early frames such as G-BMRA at 33 years old. Certainly DHL seem to think 35 years (obviously cycles and hours dependent but it does seems to be so far when most are withdrawn) is about the top given their previous withdrawals and along with Fedex who have line number 15 N935FD still going (1983 ex Monarch) these will soon need replacement too so if the US3 hang on to theirs till they fall apart i give the feed stock about 3 years assuming on projected conversion rates, of course if the US3 decide to call time early it will significantly expand the feed to certainly double the size if not more. I personally however certainly see more needing to be replaced than will be available to convert in that time hence i think that we will see the A321F ramping up once they have worked out the conversion process.

Somebody also pointed out early about the LD3s not being a major help. Just spend some time looking at Europe LGG,EMA etc on a weekday evening and seem how many are doing multi-stops, Fedex have a few 6 rotation runs each night with a significant number of 4 stop runs and every minute that aircraft spends on the ground costs the company money as most airfreight in the UK and northern Europe is time sensitive (not all i grant you). It also puts the cycles and hours up a fair bit compared to the West Air 737s which do out and backs each night.
 
WIederling
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:14 pm

B757236GT wrote:
Somebody also pointed out early about the LD3s not being a major help. Just spend some time looking at Europe LGG,EMA etc on a weekday evening and seem how many are doing multi-stops, Fedex have a few 6 rotation runs each night with a significant number of 4 stop runs and every minute that aircraft spends on the ground costs the company money as most airfreight in the UK and northern Europe is time sensitive (not all i grant you). It also puts the cycles and hours up a fair bit compared to the West Air 737s which do out and backs each night.


All loaded freight goes at the same speed :-)

The priority decision is made in the forwarders storage area.
you schedule the urgent stuff first and then fill up with increasingly less urgent things.

In the times I did the Schenker "road flight" to HAJ packages going through the closing door of the plane
were extremely rare. and KLM nightly flight to AMS was a 38t truck :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:38 pm

Flight testing is under way: https://www.flightglobal.com/mro/july-d ... 55.article

Article includes a photo of the inside of the aircraft.
Good moaning!
 
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zeke
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:03 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Flight testing is under way: https://www.flightglobal.com/mro/july-d ... 55.article

Article includes a photo of the inside of the aircraft.


Does it come in any other color apart from white ?
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:27 pm

Congratulations to Airbus. Really a testament to how many things Airbus got right with the development of the A320 Family. Such a great stock of A321ceos available, this program should be quite successful. With a good future as a freighter, that has to help residuals of all A321s.
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:27 pm

Good moaning!
 
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Revelation
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:51 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:

Yeah, but what does the other guy look like? :-)
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WayexTDI
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:02 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:

Strange livery; what were they thinking about??? :duck:

OK, I'll see myself out. :arrow:
 
T4thH
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:49 am

WayexTDI wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

Strange livery; what were they thinking about??? :duck:

OK, I'll see myself out. :arrow:


Ok, if I see the picture; The door at the L1 position has been replaced by a smaller door. The door (regular a small one) in the back seems to have been taken out and fuselage at this position has been re-skinned.

Is it possible, they have taken the small door in the back out of the fuselage and have it build in again in the L1 position? A door is expensive, just to use another door not any more needed from the same plane will be much cheaper. It is a win win, by taking out of the door in the back and replacing the door at L1 position, they will reduce weight by several hundred kg and they will gain usable volume in the front and possibly also in the back.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:17 am

T4thH wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

Strange livery; what were they thinking about??? :duck:

OK, I'll see myself out. :arrow:


Ok, if I see the picture; The door at the L1 position has been replaced by a smaller door. The door (regular a small one) in the back seems to have been taken out and fuselage at this position has been re-skinned.

Is it possible, they have taken the small door in the back out of the fuselage and have it build in again in the L1 position? A door is expensive, just to use another door not any more needed from the same plane will be much cheaper. It is a win win, by taking out of the door in the back and replacing the door at L1 position, they will reduce weight by several hundred kg and they will gain usable volume in the front and possibly also in the back.

I would wager a beer that the fuselage contours at the two doors you propose to swap are substantially different so the small rear door won’t fit in the new position. With that in mind, the new L1 door is probably made just for this application, just like on some 757 conversions. After all, if this was a reused part, I would expect it to be painted like the rest of the original parts of the donor aircraft.
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strfyr51
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:33 am

Channex757 wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.


Considering how popular the 757 has been as a freighter, that point appears to be irrelevant to freight haulers.

Irrelevant.

The containerised lower hold will be attractive for freight haulers who need a quick turn on overnights. The bins can easily be loaded if the freight or maybe just parcels is ready on the ramp in containers.
I can see the parcel haulers being interested in this new way of efficiently working.

the airbus belly cans are a lot of added weight rather than just Bulk loading as they'll Bulk out before they Gross out. but on a 321? It might make sense even though I don't think they load the 757 Belly freight like that.
 
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cougar15
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:25 am

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
This suggests to me that IAI already is comfortable replacing the floor structure during conversion, and would approach a 777W conversion by replacing the floor structure as well. It's a question that gets asked a lot on anet...

Did I mangle the quoting? whatever.

some time ago I found this pdf relating to work at EFW:
A330 P2F and not A321:
https://www.stengg.com/media/30981/a330-300-200-p2f.pdf page 3

nicely shows the structure replaced.
I suppose the A320/1 conversions proceed in about the same way?



Hmm, after recent experiences with the bulkheads on their 737 conversions, I wonder if they maybe taking a few things bit too lightly. It is no fun flying IAI 73 conversions with 700KG per position due to an AD relating to the 9G scenario. and this business of strapping each bin/can/ULD down as an interim measure is not particularly productive. Sure hope they too, like others learn from their mistakes. No such issues for this bird of course, EFW does things well, may she prosper!
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:30 am

cougar15 wrote:
Hmm, after recent experiences with the bulkheads on their 737 conversions, I wonder if they maybe taking a few things bit too lightly. It is no fun flying IAI 73 conversions with 700KG per position due to an AD relating to the 9G scenario. and this business of strapping each bin/can/ULD down as an interim measure is not particularly productive. Sure hope they too, like others learn from their mistakes. No such issues for this bird of course, EFW does things well, may she prosper!


Hmm lack of morning coffee on my side?
I don't quite get what you are driving at in your reply.
Is it Airbus P2F related or 767 related or does it specifically reference IAI ? :-)
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VSMUT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:52 am

WIederling wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
Hmm, after recent experiences with the bulkheads on their 737 conversions, I wonder if they maybe taking a few things bit too lightly. It is no fun flying IAI 73 conversions with 700KG per position due to an AD relating to the 9G scenario. and this business of strapping each bin/can/ULD down as an interim measure is not particularly productive. Sure hope they too, like others learn from their mistakes. No such issues for this bird of course, EFW does things well, may she prosper!


Hmm lack of morning coffee on my side?
I don't quite get what you are driving at in your reply.
Is it Airbus P2F related or 767 related or does it specifically reference IAI ? :-)


Probably this:
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/f ... ns-flying/
 
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:30 am

Funfact: Elbe Flugzeugwerke used to be A VEB, developed the “152” and had a maintenance license for MiG and for building IL-14.
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:12 am

WayexTDI wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

Strange livery; what were they thinking about?

They should keep it this way. I really like it. Nice to see a different paint scheme and very UTA-esque.

QF might not agree with me though.. :-(
 
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zeke
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:19 am

N14AZ wrote:

QF might not agree with me though.. :-(


Well it is now the year of the rat anything is possible ;)
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planecane
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:52 pm

Amusing how everything on here turns into some kind of A vs. B. This isn't a competition between the 757 and A321. There aren't many more 757s in passenger service to turn into freighters. They haven't been produced in a long time. The 737-900 is much smaller. If a freighter in that size is desired, an A321 conversion is quicky becoming the only option.
 
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:17 pm

T4thH wrote:
Is it possible, they have taken the small door in the back out of the fuselage and have it build in again in the L1 position? A door is expensive, just to use another door not any more needed from the same plane will be much cheaper. It is a win win, by taking out of the door in the back and replacing the door at L1 position, they will reduce weight by several hundred kg and they will gain usable volume in the front and possibly also in the back.

There were no smaller doors in the back. The A321ceo has 4 type C doors per side as far as I know.
For the A321 P2F it looks like they cut out the complete door frames of 1L/R, 2L and 4L/R. 3L/R and 2R are sealed. 2L was cut out for the large cargo door. A new smaller door shifted forward replaced 1L.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:30 pm

I like that it has a window right in front of the engine nacelle. Is that standard practice on a freighter to keep a look on things?
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mjoelnir
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:38 pm

 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:09 pm

mjoelnir wrote:


Well that was quick.
Good moaning!
 
danipawa
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:25 pm

Airbus A321 -231(F) 835 VH-ULD Express Freighters Australia at XSP 16jun20 after P2F-conversion and paint into Qamtas Australia Post cs
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:46 pm

Congrats on EIS. We'll see many A321 conversions.


As noted, this is now about online deliveries, the A321 is incredibly efficient in the non-fish market.

Revelation wrote:
B757236GT wrote:
Long time lurker but this is a thread i have particular interest in. During my time at Airbus we did look at the A321F new build in around 2003-2004 as with the A300 pretty much dead and buried it risked us not having a freighter in the range, sadly the idea was killed off as at the time the market was buying A319s and A320 pax frames doing an A321F wasn't seen to be a good use of resources so it was shelved. The other problem is many of the cargo airlines had bought what they needed from the end of line 757s so it kind of was almost a stillborn idea but i'd like to think some of the work we did over 15 years ago is being used now. How times change!

Ive also just had a look at the 757 feedstock and i count around 30 or so frames outside of the US that at the moment could still become freighter candidates.Obviously this list will go down depending upon whether airlines decide to sell.
8 Tui (Already allocated for freighter conversion)
4 Air Contractors (Again likely for conversion as they are fairly young)
3 Uzbekistan
4 Air Astana
2 Jet 2 (These are two younger frames from 1994 and 1996. The others are over 30 and looked to be destined for scrap)
9 Icelandair (I know they have more but at a rough guess on age and a based utilisation which could be used, but i would think these may run on as pax aircraft for quite a long time)

Obviously there are more marked as in storage or in transfer between airlines so its hard to be 100% accurate.

I count 59 frames in use outside of the US excluding the Condor 300s so apart from the American majors i cant see there being lots more to come. It all depends on how long the US3 keep theirs going but i think 5 years could be a lttle optomistic of course if we knew what was going to happen we would have all won millions on the lottery.

Also i note the of those undergoing conversion i flew on three of them when they were only 2 weeks or so old G-DHJH, G-NIKO and G-MIDC.

Thanks for posting, and thanks for doing all the research on the 757 feedstock!

I think this confirms what Lightsaber wrote that there is a few years more feedstock out there for 757 conversions.

So it's interesting to consider when the 'tipping point' where A321 conversions will be favored happens.

757 pros: incumbent in many big fleets, still has good spares and crew availability, proven ability to carry fish

A321 pros: more modern systems, big and growing fleet, containers below deck

Seems as 757 crews and spares become less available there will have to be a move to A321 especially for new market entrants.

Well, between the last discussion and now we had Covid 19.

From everything I've seen, old aircraft dropped 15% or so in value. I am no longer of the opinion we need to wait for A321 feedstock to become available.

With all the companies performing 752 conversion, I expect an acceleration of conversions.

That said, Precision timed this perfectly. I expect them to be capacity constrained for years to come.

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B757236GT
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:04 am

Indeed there is now significant 757 feedstock and indeed i suspect some of the older/more questionable frames are pretty much worthless now as complete frames as some of the ones coming on to the market now are likely to be in far better condition. Question is just how many more 757Fs are needed?
I suspect the A321P2F program will continue to gain traction as eventually 757s will be no more and it looks like to me that the A321F will become the narrowbody freighter of the late 2020s or early 2030s. Having said that given what has happened in the last 6 months who knows where we will be this time next year!
 
danipawa
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:20 pm

Airbus A321 -231 974 TC-OEC Onur Air ferried 18jun20 ISL-CHR, for JMV Aviation Vallair, for freighter conversion
 
strfyr51
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:08 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
A320/A321P2F will be a game changer on on the narrow bodied jet freighter market, especially since B737F and B757F do not have containerised lower deck capabilities.

the lower hold freight containers on a narrow body? Might be more trouble than it's worth. Because just like the LD3, LD6 or Igloos? the airline would have to have at least a shipset everywhere they fly to make for fast freight sorting and Loading. I've seen a number of Air Canada's containers at SFO for their A320's. they just look like added weight.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:03 pm

B757236GT wrote:
Indeed there is now significant 757 feedstock and indeed i suspect some of the older/more questionable frames are pretty much worthless now as complete frames as some of the ones coming on to the market now are likely to be in far better condition. Question is just how many more 757Fs are needed?
I suspect the A321P2F program will continue to gain traction as eventually 757s will be no more and it looks like to me that the A321F will become the narrowbody freighter of the late 2020s or early 2030s. Having said that given what has happened in the last 6 months who knows where we will be this time next year!

I like using airfleets to look up aircraft:
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-b757.htm

Looking back at DL's oldest, N649DL,
I see 89,697 flight hours (FH) and 39140 flight cycles (FC) end of last year (put in the registration 649DL and a range of dates to find the December 2019 maintenance report).
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

So there is a number that could be converted.

With a limit of Validity of 150,000 FH and 75,000 FC, it is the engine maintenance discouraging 2nd hand 757 conversions.

The A321 will be converted in bulk. But with a limit of Validity of 120,000 FH and 60,000 FC, the A321 must be a newer frame to convert. We had a thread on why the A321 LoV wasn't extended. Broken cargo floor failed when attempting 180,000 FH, 90,000 FC:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... -airplanes

Thread for discussion (out of date):
viewtopic.php?t=775787

My opinion is the issues found were due to cycles. I do not know at how many cycles the frames failed. While an unusual location: usually gear/bays, aft pressure bulkhead, brackets near the tail, horizontal or vertical stabilizer, or pressure bearing joints for cycles. Hours are flaps, actuators, wingspar, tail where flow goes near supersonic where horizontal stabilizer attaches (skin and structure) are where hours fail.

Apparently, the cargo floor deflects enough to strain a bunch, so the A320 family cannot go 90,000 cycles.

If we weren't in this Covid19 recession, I would say Airbus would try to extend cycles a little and hours a lot. They did extend the A330 to an insane 180,000 FH, 60,000 FC which will give excellent extended repair intervals. (787 still has 200,000 FH, 66,000 FC).

So A321s will become a very common freighter, but the 752 is such a workhorse, I expect most of the remaining fleet to be converted as a 40,000 FC 752 or 90,000 FH example still has enough to be converted. I believe a remaining 50,000+ FH and 20,000+ FC are required to be interesting conversion candidates. In this market, not every aircraft suitable for conversion will be converted, so it will be interesting to see the transaction pricing; it will set new lows.

The scrap market values are plummeting. So I expect frames to be stored that are good conversion examples.

An overview if the conversion market (I out part iii as it has links):
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... -part-iii/

A321 conversions: Precision and EFW (soon?)
752 conversions: Precision, STI

Or the full list I know of (ignoring 733, 734, MD-80 and other conversions happening in tiny numbers):
AEI: 738
Bedek (IAI) 763, 73G, 738, and soon 777-300ERSF
Boeing: 763, 738
EFW: A330-200/300, A320, A321 (planned)
Precision: 752, A321
STI:752 (does labor on Boeing 763)


Lightsaber
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MD80MKE
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:00 pm

Thanks for the details lightsaber. The article that you linked are a little bit outdated however. EFW already got EASA STC in February and have the first delivery (MSN 835, ex-Onur) to Qantas imminent. Prevision seems almost ready for test flight on their conformity aircraft (MSN 891, ex-FlyCAA, 21.8 years old) and expected a FAA STC this year. Vallair is the launch customer for both houses, but it seem like there are some openings on both lines for subsequent conversions. AFAIK there are two more aircrafts lined up for EFW and they are both currently parked at CHR (MSN 1207 and MSN 974) waiting for ferry to Singapore to enter the EFW line there.

Next up in the A321P2F game will be Since Draco who already started their first A321SDF conversion (MSN 963, ex-AtlasGlobal) in February. First flight expected next year.

There's also C Cubed who's also expected to do A321P2F. Currently its doing a A320P2F (MSN 1523, ex-Sky Airlines) in their MCI facility and expected a "late summer" roll out. Note on their website they claim that 15 ULDs are supported for their A321CCF, compared to 14 for both EFW and prevision.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... conversion
 
rfarlz
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:17 pm

Has anyone noticed that the Australian registration of this plane will be VH-ULD? Surely a nod to the containerisation abilities of the A320 family?
 
LHA320
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:14 am

MD80MKE wrote:
Thanks for the details lightsaber. The article that you linked are a little bit outdated however. EFW already got EASA STC in February and have the first delivery (MSN 835, ex-Onur) to Qantas imminent. Prevision seems almost ready for test flight on their conformity aircraft (MSN 891, ex-FlyCAA, 21.8 years old) and expected a FAA STC this year. Vallair is the launch customer for both houses, but it seem like there are some openings on both lines for subsequent conversions. AFAIK there are two more aircrafts lined up for EFW and they are both currently parked at CHR (MSN 1207 and MSN 974) waiting for ferry to Singapore to enter the EFW line there.

Next up in the A321P2F game will be Since Draco who already started their first A321SDF conversion (MSN 963, ex-AtlasGlobal) in February. First flight expected next year.

There's also C Cubed who's also expected to do A321P2F. Currently its doing a A320P2F (MSN 1523, ex-Sky Airlines) in their MCI facility and expected a "late summer" roll out. Note on their website they claim that 15 ULDs are supported for their A321CCF, compared to 14 for both EFW and prevision.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... conversion


Wow, very detailed. Thank you for the overview of conversion programs. Just to add, EFW currently has two more A321 conversions in progress. These are MSN 1238 (ex. TC G-DHJH) and MSN 1250 (ex TC G-NIKO). For what I know both will be delivered to ZT. MSN 2060 (currently G-POWW with ZT) will follow as soon as MSN 1238 and MSN 1250 are delivered back to ZT.
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QF744ER
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:40 pm

Does any know the MSN of the next A321 that will be converted for Express Freighters tbf Qantas?

Had read that JQ A321’s VH-VWY and -VWZ were to undergo conversion.

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