Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14186
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:23 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion.

You can see the yellow nose gear strap in this photo

Image

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-deal/

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


I have seen so many photo's of jets tipping, A310, A320, 737, 727, 747, M11. Probably if you push a few heavy containers into the tail of an empty A321 it will tip to. Would be great if there was a switch next to the parking break solving the limitations, risks forever. I guess there is a procedure to load first, unload front containers last for the A321F.


Correct. Airplanes will tip of not loaded correctly. That’s why there are tie down straps for the nose gear. It barely takes any more time than it does to install chocks. Far simpler, lighter and cheaper than to build an integrated tail stand.


I've hardly ever seen them on the ramp. Would require a pretty precise parking too. Not sure this a a viable solution for all te cargo operators.
There is obviously a reason to use them, with all procedures in place for this established western operator. They wouldn't do it if it was irrelevant.

For longer versions of aircraft 737-9/9) and 747 they are use frequently, specially for Carg versions.
Also ATR use them, those are short. Fedex will probably need a lot of them http://wadaphoto.jp/kikou/images8/myanmar218.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
QF744ER
Posts: 470
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:31 pm

-VWY was at XSP for a heavy check only. A321P2F #2 for QF/Australia Post isn’t expected for delivery until till 4Q 2021.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2797
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:51 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I agree with what you say. I believe that you’d probably agree that putting an integrated deploying tail wheel on the A321 like Keesje suggested from the Il62 is ridiculous.


Totally; it's a daft idea to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:10 pm

keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

I have seen so many photo's of jets tipping, A310, A320, 737, 727, 747, M11. Probably if you push a few heavy containers into the tail of an empty A321 it will tip to. Would be great if there was a switch next to the parking break solving the limitations, risks forever. I guess there is a procedure to load first, unload front containers last for the A321F.


Correct. Airplanes will tip of not loaded correctly. That’s why there are tie down straps for the nose gear. It barely takes any more time than it does to install chocks. Far simpler, lighter and cheaper than to build an integrated tail stand.


I've hardly ever seen them on the ramp. Would require a pretty precise parking too. Not sure this a a viable solution for all te cargo operators.
There is obviously a reason to use them, with all procedures in place for this established western operator. They wouldn't do it if it was irrelevant.

For longer versions of aircraft 737-9/9) and 747 they are use frequently, specially for Carg versions.
Also ATR use them, those are short. Fedex will probably need a lot of them http://wadaphoto.jp/kikou/images8/myanmar218.jpg


You are correct that freighters require precise parking. Any operator who parks freighters randomly on a ramp without precise parking positions is asking for their planes to be damaged.

Yes it is a viable option if an operator wants assurance in case cargo isn’t loaded correctly

Image

Source
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/523754631638827906/

FedEx even has tie downs in their corporate colors

B777LRF wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I agree with what you say. I believe that you’d probably agree that putting an integrated deploying tail wheel on the A321 like Keesje suggested from the Il62 is ridiculous.


Totally; it's a daft idea to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


The idea of installing a deployable tail wheel in a modern jet is truly daft.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:44 pm

a2b7 wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
Do you know whether the 4th A321 to be converted in the P2F program is already at XSP?


If you look upthread, JetStar VH-VWY has already entered XSP the end of last month. Furthermore, MSN 1017 for SmartLynx Malta will enter ST Aerospace Guangzhou by the end of November to kick off EFW's second site.

Thanks for the update about the start of conversion at Guangzhou.
I am afraid the conversion of VH-VWY has not started yet. It flew SIN-DRW today according to https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-vwy

ok, interesting. Thanks for the info.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:08 pm

B777LRF wrote:
[We never used nose-tether on any type, only used tail-stands of the pogo type on a select few types (727-100, DC-8 and CV-580) and we never sat anything on its tail.


FedEx has had their MD-10 & MD-11 on their tail.

Image

FedEx also use nose tie downs and a “Pet Rock”

Image

Image
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Sokes
Posts: 2731
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:05 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I agree with what you say. I believe that you’d probably agree that putting an integrated deploying tail wheel on the A321 like Keesje suggested from the Il62 is ridiculous.


Totally; it's a daft idea to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


The idea of installing a deployable tail wheel in a modern jet is truly daft.

Good you pointed it out one more time. I may have otherwise missed it.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1803
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:40 pm

I'm just happy to see my old friend ex G-MIDC stll going well, albeit with a different uniform/purpose. I remember distinctly turning this baby around in 19mins as a delayed BD114 AMS-LHR on a Sunday night way back in a cold '98/'99 winter to get back home before curfew/fines kicked in. Still no idea how we did it, 195x pax deplaned and the same back on again, containers and no LMCs helped somewhat of course. Was organised chaos, but such great fun! :)

Also, just loving the new reg VH-ULD, how appropriate! :)
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:23 pm

Would a tail stand based on the 737 tailstand be sufficient for the 321 to stop any tail tipping?
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:42 am

One of the first two A321P2F for Titan Airways, MSN 1238, G-POWY performed its first test flight after conversion earlier today from XSP
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... y#260127f0
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:37 am

MSN1238, G-POWY has been delivered to Titan Airways on January 7th, 2021.

Airbus Hamburg Finkenwerder News
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4091
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:51 am

Noted in other reports about the first delivery:

To meet the rising demand for A321P2F, ST Engineering, along with EFW, plans to set up additional conversion sites in China, the US and Germany which will ramp up its global conversion capacity to 25 slots per year by 2023.


https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/freighter-operator/titan-airways-enters-the-a321-cargo-market/
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:38 am

will be starting 321 PtoF conversion here at BFM mid year
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:51 am

tail wheel on IL-62 made not for avoid tailsitting on existing plane.
but to move CG point and decrease rotation forces and stabiliser size
 
Noshow
Posts: 2204
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:06 pm

Are you sure? Why do they have to lower it even for slow taxy then?
The Il-62 is famous for being extremely tail heavy.
 
Pendennis
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:43 pm

Noshow wrote:
Are you sure? Why do they have to lower it even for slow taxy then?
The Il-62 is famous for being extremely tail heavy.


But not as tail heavy as a VC.10. The problem with rear-engined 4-jet airliners is the weight is concentrated at the rear of the aircraft meaning the CoG is a long way aft too, so the wings would need to be further aft. This means the fin/rudder has to be larger and hence heavier to compensate for the reduced moment, becoming a viscious circle. Ilyushin overcame the problem by having the wing as far forward as possible, meaning that the Il-62 has a smaller/lighter fin/rudder than the VC.10. However this meant that the CoG was marginal on the ground, hence the fourth set of wheels. Just another way to solve a problem.
 
milhaus
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:19 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:17 pm

To Pendennis:You are right except one think, its stabilizer and elevator which makes force to rotate aircraft, not fin and rudder. Try to find size of VC10 and Il62 stabilizer and compare it.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 644
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:27 am

by russian sources stab area for IL-62 is 40m2 and for VC-10 60m2
 
RalXWB
Posts: 526
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:05 am

Isn´t the topic A321 P2F conversion? And not airliners from the 60s....
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:30 am

RalXWB wrote:
Isn´t the topic A321 P2F conversion? And not airliners from the 60s....


Indeed. Feel free to continue this discussion in a separate thread, but keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:05 pm

Vallair, the A321P2F converter for Qantas, plans to convert 9 aircraft in a new Chinese facility at CAN. As before, the conversion work is a cooperation between EFW and ST Engineering, with Vallair providing the airframe.
https://www.stattimes.com/news/vallair- ... -aviation/

The first is MSN 1017, delivered originally to Air 2000 in 1999.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:04 pm

Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.
 
CX747
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:13 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.


A321P2F has a long way to go.

757P2F is massive but there to potentially one day replace. The 737P2F offers very good performance, are at a cheaper price, with more conversions being conducted. Hard to beat the 737P2F overall offering. Plus, we see the likes of FEDEX, UPS and Amazon favoring the 767, either new or P2F over 757P2F for their mission set for the past several years. Hard to "replace" or capture a market when so much of that is being dominated by the 767P2F.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CRJockey
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:52 pm

CX747 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.


A321P2F has a long way to go.

757P2F is massive but there to potentially one day replace. The 737P2F offers very good performance, are at a cheaper price, with more conversions being conducted. Hard to beat the 737P2F overall offering. Plus, we see the likes of FEDEX, UPS and Amazon favoring the 767, either new or P2F over 757P2F for their mission set for the past several years. Hard to "replace" or capture a market when so much of that is being dominated by the 767P2F.


I fully expect, for both the narrowbody and widebody continental range freighters, that the same transition happens that did in the pax market: Before long, suitable 737NG and A32x feedstock will be very cost effective against the dwindling 757 feed stock and is arguably already today. And will push the 757s out of the market. Similarly, falling prices for A330P2F (certainly not new copies) will slowly but steadily push 767s out. The additional volume will be needed sooner rather than later.

None of that will happen fast, and it didn't in the PAX world either. But it will happen.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:02 pm

CRJockey wrote:
CX747 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.


A321P2F has a long way to go.

757P2F is massive but there to potentially one day replace. The 737P2F offers very good performance, are at a cheaper price, with more conversions being conducted. Hard to beat the 737P2F overall offering. Plus, we see the likes of FEDEX, UPS and Amazon favoring the 767, either new or P2F over 757P2F for their mission set for the past several years. Hard to "replace" or capture a market when so much of that is being dominated by the 767P2F.


I fully expect, for both the narrowbody and widebody continental range freighters, that the same transition happens that did in the pax market: Before long, suitable 737NG and A32x feedstock will be very cost effective against the dwindling 757 feed stock and is arguably already today. And will push the 757s out of the market. Similarly, falling prices for A330P2F (certainly not new copies) will slowly but steadily push 767s out. The additional volume will be needed sooner rather than later.

None of that will happen fast, and it didn't in the PAX world either. But it will happen.


I generally agree but will point out that 757 utilization tends to be very low at cargo carriers, it will take forever for them to cycle out. And parts for the single highest cost item, the engines, will continue to be available forever because of the C-17. As 757 pax versions get scrapped, airframe parts will be harder to come by. So I see A321 p2f more for growth. But Airbus needs to earn the trust of the cargo airlines.
 
CX747
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:08 pm

CRJockey wrote:
CX747 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.


A321P2F has a long way to go.

757P2F is massive but there to potentially one day replace. The 737P2F offers very good performance, are at a cheaper price, with more conversions being conducted. Hard to beat the 737P2F overall offering. Plus, we see the likes of FEDEX, UPS and Amazon favoring the 767, either new or P2F over 757P2F for their mission set for the past several years. Hard to "replace" or capture a market when so much of that is being dominated by the 767P2F.


I fully expect, for both the narrowbody and widebody continental range freighters, that the same transition happens that did in the pax market: Before long, suitable 737NG and A32x feedstock will be very cost effective against the dwindling 757 feed stock and is arguably already today. And will push the 757s out of the market. Similarly, falling prices for A330P2F (certainly not new copies) will slowly but steadily push 767s out. The additional volume will be needed sooner rather than later.

None of that will happen fast, and it didn't in the PAX world either. But it will happen.


Very well could happen but it is a different market, different time and we don't know what happens with new builds.

737NGP2F is way ahead of the A32XP2F in getting to market.

Additionally, this is not the pax market where an insatiable demand is. Cargo is smaller, with historic less hours each year. So every jet sold is a bigger "gain" if you will. There are many conversion houses getting the hotly demanded 737-700/800P2F to market.

767P2F is blazing and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. The time will come when the used airframes just are not there but that won't be anytime soon. Plus new builds continue to roll off the line.

The A321 has long road to see what market it fits into and how. It definitely has good specs but time and the market will let us know in what numbers they are wanted.

I don't forsee the A330P2F program going that far. The 767 is just the 800lb gorilla. It does everything you want, at a price point that is truly in the sweet spot. and by the time that firm grasp is letting go, the 787 and a potential P2F program may be up and running. Wingspan issues also plague the A330, which is why the new build program is now dead.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
Posts: 6576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:22 pm

SteelChair wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
CX747 wrote:

A321P2F has a long way to go.

757P2F is massive but there to potentially one day replace. The 737P2F offers very good performance, are at a cheaper price, with more conversions being conducted. Hard to beat the 737P2F overall offering. Plus, we see the likes of FEDEX, UPS and Amazon favoring the 767, either new or P2F over 757P2F for their mission set for the past several years. Hard to "replace" or capture a market when so much of that is being dominated by the 767P2F.


I fully expect, for both the narrowbody and widebody continental range freighters, that the same transition happens that did in the pax market: Before long, suitable 737NG and A32x feedstock will be very cost effective against the dwindling 757 feed stock and is arguably already today. And will push the 757s out of the market. Similarly, falling prices for A330P2F (certainly not new copies) will slowly but steadily push 767s out. The additional volume will be needed sooner rather than later.

None of that will happen fast, and it didn't in the PAX world either. But it will happen.


I generally agree but will point out that 757 utilization tends to be very low at cargo carriers, it will take forever for them to cycle out. And parts for the single highest cost item, the engines, will continue to be available forever because of the C-17. As 757 pax versions get scrapped, airframe parts will be harder to come by. So I see A321 p2f more for growth. But Airbus needs to earn the trust of the cargo airlines.


Very well written points.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:57 pm

CX747 wrote:

Very well could happen but it is a different market, different time and we don't know what happens with new builds.

737NGP2F is way ahead of the A32XP2F in getting to market.

Additionally, this is not the pax market where an insatiable demand is. Cargo is smaller, with historic less hours each year. So every jet sold is a bigger "gain" if you will. There are many conversion houses getting the hotly demanded 737-700/800P2F to market.

767P2F is blazing and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. The time will come when the used airframes just are not there but that won't be anytime soon. Plus new builds continue to roll off the line.

The A321 has long road to see what market it fits into and how. It definitely has good specs but time and the market will let us know in what numbers they are wanted.

I don't forsee the A330P2F program going that far. The 767 is just the 800lb gorilla. It does everything you want, at a price point that is truly in the sweet spot. and by the time that firm grasp is letting go, the 787 and a potential P2F program may be up and running. Wingspan issues also plague the A330, which is why the new build program is now dead.


All you are saying is that aircraft deemed undesirable for passenger flying were converted to freighters. The reason the A321 is entering the freighter market later is not related to operators deeming them undesirable as freighters, it is the lack of suitable donor aircraft as they are still very desirable in passenger operations.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:53 pm

CX747 wrote:
737NGP2F is way ahead of the A32XP2F in getting to market.

That's a pretty broad statement. The A321 doesn't directly compete with the 737-800, like the 757-200 doesn't compete with the 737-400. The closest Boeing has to the A321, the 737-900, isn't all that popular as a freighter (or a passenger aircraft, FWIW).

Between DHL, UPS and FedEx alone, there are about 250 757F for which the A321F is a direct replacement. Both the 737NG and A321 have only recently hit the market at an age and price that's acceptable for cargo conversion. The current crisis will ensure that younger aircraft become available at a competitive price. I expect a fairly quick retirement of most 757 and 737 Classic freighters. Both the A32x and 737NG are better in almost every metric.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21749
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:31 am

zeke wrote:
CX747 wrote:

Very well could happen but it is a different market, different time and we don't know what happens with new builds.

737NGP2F is way ahead of the A32XP2F in getting to market.

Additionally, this is not the pax market where an insatiable demand is. Cargo is smaller, with historic less hours each year. So every jet sold is a bigger "gain" if you will. There are many conversion houses getting the hotly demanded 737-700/800P2F to market.

767P2F is blazing and doesn't show any signs of slowing down. The time will come when the used airframes just are not there but that won't be anytime soon. Plus new builds continue to roll off the line.

The A321 has long road to see what market it fits into and how. It definitely has good specs but time and the market will let us know in what numbers they are wanted.

I don't forsee the A330P2F program going that far. The 767 is just the 800lb gorilla. It does everything you want, at a price point that is truly in the sweet spot. and by the time that firm grasp is letting go, the 787 and a potential P2F program may be up and running. Wingspan issues also plague the A330, which is why the new build program is now dead.


All you are saying is that aircraft deemed undesirable for passenger flying were converted to freighters. The reason the A321 is entering the freighter market later is not related to operators deeming them undesirable as freighters, it is the lack of suitable donor aircraft as they are still very desirable in passenger operations.

I agree, but if I may phrase differently, A 15 years old 738 is worth $11.6 million, 20 year old $7.8 million per the following link.
A used A321 is worth $14.5 million and 20 year old $8.7 million.

There is more competition for 738 conversions (Boeing, IAI Bedek, Aeronautical Engineers) vs. 1 certified and 1 coming for the A321 (Precision and EFW, plus some from companies I've never heard of). With only one shop going, I expect rates to be higher for A321 conversions. I can only guess, but it should be a half million to a million more for the conversion.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... nd-beyond/

I have no newer or better link then this for aircraft values.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/11/09/ponti ... ts-plunge/

A321 values have just recently fallen enough for the conversion business case. Per the link, the 15 year old 738 fell in value by $3.9 million while the A321 fell in value by $4.4 million (again now $14.5 million per the link). The A321 was worth more pre-Covid19 as it was an efficient people hauler when seats were filled. Now it is a little more expensive per flight than the 738 in a time of low demand.

I expect the A321 conversion market to pick up quickly. If too many are converted, the base airframe value will increase and conversions will slow.

The MAX and NEO deliveries will really drive A321P2F demand. If narrowbody production is too high, then cheaper planes means more freight conversions. It is all about the price of freighter stock and the price of conversion.

Oh, on the 752SF/BCF, they have a lot of life left and as already noted, the utilization is too low to justify replacing them. The same is true of most 734 and 733 based freighters too.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
jreeves96
Posts: 170
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:05 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:59 am

UPS uses a tail stand on most aircraft at most bases.

Have also seen them used at ICN, HAN, LAX, PVG, CGO, and ANC.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:11 am

Fixinthe757 wrote:
will be starting 321 PtoF conversion here at BFM mid year


Did not know they were going to be doing these at BFM. What a great addition to the ops at BFM for my home state of AL. I'm assuming they're doing these over at VT MAE right?
 
leoben
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:05 pm

jreeves96 wrote:
UPS uses a tail stand on most aircraft at most bases.

Have also seen them used at ICN, HAN, LAX, PVG, CGO, and ANC.



FX uses a fixed nosewheel tether or weight cart on every A/C - except possibly the 777s as they load front to back. If there is a situation where no tether is available (Ad-hocs, charters, etc.), there is a specific procedure that requires extra coordination and consideration regarding loading or unloading.


SteelChair wrote:
Its not hard to forsee a continuous slow conversion of these types to freighter service in the years ahead. The feedtock is huge, and no better narrowbody options exist.

Hopefully, Airbus can gain a better foothold in the freighter market, which for some reason has eluded them till now. They can offer a very powerful combination of these and A330F's (minimal pilot training costs for conversion) to the cargo airlines.


I see this narrative pop up on occaision, and it certainly has some validity if not using FAR121 (or equivalent) reasoning. But as I am fairly Airbus ignorant, I am curious about the reality of it. Anyone have actual examples on this? Would A32X to A33X (or visa versa) be a differences course or require the full course? IIRC they are not on the same type certificate like 757/767? How about the A300/310? That seems like even more of a stretch.
I know some operators have explored somewhat abbreviated courses for Boeing - Boeing (75/6-777) timelines that would fall somewhere in between full course and differences, as there is a fair bit of commonality. But I dont know if any have actually been approved. There is certainly some carryover of knowledge and familiarity that would aid in training, but is there any actual relief in the regulatory requirements? If not in the U.S., is this a possibility in other jurisdictions?
 
CRJockey
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:19 pm

leoben wrote:
I see this narrative pop up on occaision, and it certainly has some validity if not using FAR121 (or equivalent) reasoning. But as I am fairly Airbus ignorant, I am curious about the reality of it. Anyone have actual examples on this? Would A32X to A33X (or visa versa) be a differences course or require the full course? IIRC they are not on the same type certificate like 757/767? How about the A300/310? That seems like even more of a stretch.
I know some operators have explored somewhat abbreviated courses for Boeing - Boeing (75/6-777) timelines that would fall somewhere in between full course and differences, as there is a fair bit of commonality. But I dont know if any have actually been approved. There is certainly some carryover of knowledge and familiarity that would aid in training, but is there any actual relief in the regulatory requirements? If not in the U.S., is this a possibility in other jurisdictions?


To make the answer short: Yes, widely used and absolutely a selling point within the Airbus family. The A300/A310 are not part of this, however.

A320 to A330/A340 for example is just a couple of days, not a full rating.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2159
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:52 pm

CRJockey wrote:
leoben wrote:
I see this narrative pop up on occaision, and it certainly has some validity if not using FAR121 (or equivalent) reasoning. But as I am fairly Airbus ignorant, I am curious about the reality of it. Anyone have actual examples on this? Would A32X to A33X (or visa versa) be a differences course or require the full course? IIRC they are not on the same type certificate like 757/767? How about the A300/310? That seems like even more of a stretch.
I know some operators have explored somewhat abbreviated courses for Boeing - Boeing (75/6-777) timelines that would fall somewhere in between full course and differences, as there is a fair bit of commonality. But I dont know if any have actually been approved. There is certainly some carryover of knowledge and familiarity that would aid in training, but is there any actual relief in the regulatory requirements? If not in the U.S., is this a possibility in other jurisdictions?


To make the answer short: Yes, widely used and absolutely a selling point within the Airbus family. The A300/A310 are not part of this, however.

A320 to A330/A340 for example is just a couple of days, not a full rating.

I remember reading A320 to A330/340 was a week; 2 days was to switch between A330 and A340.
Many similarities in the Airbus FBW cockpits and the way aircraft handle; and almost identical cockpit and flying characteristics between the A330 & A340.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:20 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
leoben wrote:
I see this narrative pop up on occaision, and it certainly has some validity if not using FAR121 (or equivalent) reasoning. But as I am fairly Airbus ignorant, I am curious about the reality of it. Anyone have actual examples on this? Would A32X to A33X (or visa versa) be a differences course or require the full course? IIRC they are not on the same type certificate like 757/767? How about the A300/310? That seems like even more of a stretch.
I know some operators have explored somewhat abbreviated courses for Boeing - Boeing (75/6-777) timelines that would fall somewhere in between full course and differences, as there is a fair bit of commonality. But I dont know if any have actually been approved. There is certainly some carryover of knowledge and familiarity that would aid in training, but is there any actual relief in the regulatory requirements? If not in the U.S., is this a possibility in other jurisdictions?


To make the answer short: Yes, widely used and absolutely a selling point within the Airbus family. The A300/A310 are not part of this, however.

A320 to A330/A340 for example is just a couple of days, not a full rating.

I remember reading A320 to A330/340 was a week; 2 days was to switch between A330 and A340.
Many similarities in the Airbus FBW cockpits and the way aircraft handle; and almost identical cockpit and flying characteristics between the A330 & A340.


These two posters have described what I was referring to. I would not say that it is a "narrative." Its a cold hard fact that cockpit similarity and pilot qualifications are very streamlined from A320-A330-A340. Its a huge cost saver for a large airline. It's a shame they made the A350 so different, but I guess technology moved so far that they had to.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:10 pm

Any updates on the Precision/ATSG 321 conversion program? Last word I saw was that their bird made it's maiden flight some time ago.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21749
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:50 pm

Please take the cockpit commonality to another thread. I will leave the current posts as relaevant to the cost of some airlines introducing an A321PTF, but other posters just want to know the status and updates and that commonality is more Airbus in general.

Do not get me wrong, a facinating discussion. If a thread is started, feel free to post a link in this thread for those interested.

Neil/Lightsaber
Moderator airliners.net
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
leoben
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:36 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:08 pm

Thanks for the replies. I must say I'm surprised, it just didn't seem realistic with my own narrative based on the perceptions I had.

Good reminder that feelings, opinions and/or conjectures are not facts. And that it is good practice to question your own logical premise.

As stated, I am fairly Airbus ignorant - but now slightly less so.

My apologies for the thread drift, but thanks for the clarification!
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:41 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
Fixinthe757 wrote:
will be starting 321 PtoF conversion here at BFM mid year


Did not know they were going to be doing these at BFM. What a great addition to the ops at BFM for my home state of AL. I'm assuming they're doing these over at VT MAE right?

Yes MAE
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:51 pm

Heard that the first couple A321s being converted at BFM are going to GlobalX as part of the 10 frames lease deal with Vallair. Not sure about the feedstock sources though.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:07 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
Heard that the first couple A321s being converted at BFM are going to GlobalX as part of the 10 frames lease deal with Vallair. Not sure about the feedstock sources though.


Pure guessing from my side will be A321-200 ( MSN 974 ) reg N974M from Vallair for the first one ?
Delivery in the third quarter of 2021 and the last of ten in the second quarter of 2023
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:31 am

oldJoe wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
Heard that the first couple A321s being converted at BFM are going to GlobalX as part of the 10 frames lease deal with Vallair. Not sure about the feedstock sources though.


Pure guessing from my side will be A321-200 ( MSN 974 ) reg N974M from Vallair for the first one ?
Delivery in the third quarter of 2021 and the last of ten in the second quarter of 2023

Will let all know when i find out
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:48 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:48 pm

Leasing company is BBAM, dont know the airlines that will take them yet
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21749
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:51 pm

What is the annual conversion capacity? Is it still 25/year? I would expect an increase:
https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/en/ou ... o-bbam-77/

With how every other freight conversion program accelerated, did I skip over a post noting an acceleration in capacity? There is certainly the feed stock. Don't get me wrong, the A320CEO is a good plane, there are just so many lease returns that we need something, such as P2F, to absorb the surplus.

Lightsaber

Related, the A321PCF is in flight testing. I wonder if IAI Bedek will also enter the A32x conversion market:
https://www.aviationnepal.com/a321-prec ... freighters.
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
a2b7
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What is the annual conversion capacity? Is it still 25/year? I would expect an increase:
https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/en/ou ... o-bbam-77/

With how every other freight conversion program accelerated, did I skip over a post noting an acceleration in capacity? There is certainly the feed stock. Don't get me wrong, the A320CEO is a good plane, there are just so many lease returns that we need something, such as P2F, to absorb the surplus.

Lightsaber

Related, the A321PCF is in flight testing. I wonder if IAI Bedek will also enter the A32x conversion market:
https://www.aviationnepal.com/a321-prec ... freighters.

As far as I understand 25/year in 2023 is already an increase due to COVID; if I remember correctly I read somewhere that EFW/ST even deprioritized the A320P2F to have more resources for a faster ramp up of the A321P2F conversion program, but I cannot find that article any more. Please keep in mind that at the moment only airframes 3 and 4 are in conversion at EFW/ST. MSN 1250 is in conversion at Singapore as discussed upthread, and MSN 1017's conversion is starting at Guangzhou, see https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/f ... -in-china/
More sites will join the conversion program, as discussed on this thread.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21749
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:59 pm

a2b7 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What is the annual conversion capacity? Is it still 25/year? I would expect an increase:
https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/en/ou ... o-bbam-77/

With how every other freight conversion program accelerated, did I skip over a post noting an acceleration in capacity? There is certainly the feed stock. Don't get me wrong, the A320CEO is a good plane, there are just so many lease returns that we need something, such as P2F, to absorb the surplus.

Lightsaber

Related, the A321PCF is in flight testing. I wonder if IAI Bedek will also enter the A32x conversion market:
https://www.aviationnepal.com/a321-prec ... freighters.

As far as I understand 25/year in 2023 is already an increase due to COVID; if I remember correctly I read somewhere that EFW/ST even deprioritized the A320P2F to have more resources for a faster ramp up of the A321P2F conversion program, but I cannot find that article any more. Please keep in mind that at the moment only airframes 3 and 4 are in conversion at EFW/ST. MSN 1250 is in conversion at Singapore as discussed upthread, and MSN 1017's conversion is starting at Guangzhou, see https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/f ... -in-china/
More sites will join the conversion program, as discussed on this thread.

I understand more sites will join. But what will the annual rate be? At this time, MRO activity is low. So MROs would love to bid on freighter conversion work. But what is the plan? e.g., 10 here being converted in China,
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 08.article

Way back in September, the 738BCF has 134 orders and accelerating.
2nd link already had 3 lines:
https://www.aircargoweek.com/more-737-8 ... or-boeing/
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/news/ga ... onversion/

The IAI and AEI 737 conversion lines are also in production of 737-800 conversions (IAI also has 737-700 conversions).
https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... ification/

So I'm curious as to the quantity. I'm shocked how popular the A321 conversion is. I'm trying to figure out how much the conversion might move the used pricing of A321s. So naturally I'm also interested in the Precision A321 conversion also:
https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... ification/

Part of why I am so interested in freight conversions is that if there are enough of them:
1. The stabilize the second hand market of airframes
2. They provide wonderful economy of scale for keeping a type in service far longer than passenger duty can. (It can be a mix of freighters and passenger.)

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
windian425
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:44 pm

Would it make since for Airbus to offer a new-built A321NEO-F? With passenger Airlines deferring deliveries and airbus planning to maintain 40 A320 series deliveries, development capacity should be available.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5181
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:51 pm

windian425 wrote:
Would it make since for Airbus to offer a new-built A321NEO-F? With passenger Airlines deferring deliveries and airbus planning to maintain 40 A320 series deliveries, development capacity should be available.


I doubt any freighter operator would pony up cash for a new technology new production freighter, even if magic happens and they could develop it, certify it and deliver anytime soon.

That’s a super spendy option and won’t fly.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21749
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:31 am

Spacepope wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Would it make since for Airbus to offer a new-built A321NEO-F? With passenger Airlines deferring deliveries and airbus planning to maintain 40 A320 series deliveries, development capacity should be available.


I doubt any freighter operator would pony up cash for a new technology new production freighter, even if magic happens and they could develop it, certify it and deliver anytime soon.

That’s a super spendy option and won’t fly.
Airbus should develop an A330NEO freighter as that gives Airbus a TATL freighter (the A330F ans A330P2Fs cannot carry full weight TATL (3200nm per Airbus). A higher MTOW NEO could in my opinion.
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/freight ... 2C000%20nm


As noted, a factory A321NEO freighter would be pricey. The accelerated conversions are due to lower priced conversion stock. I believe that the drop in used A320CEO pricing will result in more conversions than just A321.

The freight market is long term. Discussing IAI:
“Today, with the drastically reduced passenger aircraft operations and grounding of fleets, airlines are phasing out relatively new aircraft, such as the Boeing 737-800.”
....
“Today, the B737-800 aircraft are available for cargo conversions at prices much lower than only four months ago. This trend has opened up the market, and we expect further growth in demand.” Cohen concluded.


https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/ca ... sponsored/

Conversion of the 738 and A321 was something I considered investing in a future (as in 2022 time frame). A sales tool with a few sales until stock became cheaper. That cheap stock happened in 2020.

So now we are talking how many A321 conversions because too many are sitting around. The world is upside down.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos