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MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:20 pm

QF744ER wrote:
Does any know the MSN of the next A321 that will be converted for Express Freighters tbf Qantas?

Had read that JQ A321’s VH-VWY and -VWZ were to undergo conversion.


MSN 1408, VH-VWY as far as know will come from KeyStone Holding. THE LOI was signed earlier this year. Scheduled to be re-delivered to Qantas Freight by the end of 2021. Not sure if the timeline has changed though after this pandemic. Don't know about VH-VWZ.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/qant ... p2f-975499

ps. I think the article is behind the paywall. But the title tells the story :)
 
QF744ER
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:11 am

MD80MKE wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
Does any know the MSN of the next A321 that will be converted for Express Freighters tbf Qantas?

Had read that JQ A321’s VH-VWY and -VWZ were to undergo conversion.


MSN 1408, VH-VWY as far as know will come from KeyStone Holding. THE LOI was signed earlier this year. Scheduled to be re-delivered to Qantas Freight by the end of 2021. Not sure if the timeline has changed though after this pandemic. Don't know about VH-VWZ.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/qant ... p2f-975499

ps. I think the article is behind the paywall. But the title tells the story :)


Cheers for that info, would appear then with the 2 frames currently undergoing conversion for ZT and assuming that the line in XSP can only accomodate 2 possibly 3 conversions simultaneously that the next Express Freighters/QF #2 A321PCF is still some time away.

Like the multitude of B767’s we’re watching being converted to BDSF’s, get the feeling this is going to be an exciting thread to watch.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:22 am

QF744ER wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
Does any know the MSN of the next A321 that will be converted for Express Freighters tbf Qantas?

Had read that JQ A321’s VH-VWY and -VWZ were to undergo conversion.


MSN 1408, VH-VWY as far as know will come from KeyStone Holding. THE LOI was signed earlier this year. Scheduled to be re-delivered to Qantas Freight by the end of 2021. Not sure if the timeline has changed though after this pandemic. Don't know about VH-VWZ.
https://centreforaviation.com/news/qant ... p2f-975499

ps. I think the article is behind the paywall. But the title tells the story :)


Cheers for that info, would appear then with the 2 frames currently undergoing conversion for ZT and assuming that the line in XSP can only accomodate 2 possibly 3 conversions simultaneously that the next Express Freighters/QF #2 A321PCF is still some time away.

Like the multitude of B767’s we’re watching being converted to BDSF’s, get the feeling this is going to be an exciting thread to watch.


For sure exciting times ahead. Also EFW was planning to start up a A321 conversion line in Guangzhou using ST engineerings facility this year for a capacity of 2 aircrafts concurrently. But obviously that plan has been delayed because of the COVID. Vallair apparently was planing to have their next two done in Guangzhou, but they could be falling back to XSP line now.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:14 pm

The Precision A321PCF prototype (MSN 891) was seen doing taxi test in Orlando the other day. Will probably be in the air for certification tests pretty soon.
https://twitter.com/CargoFacts/status/1 ... 0120682498
 
Newark727
Posts: 3631
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:54 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
The Precision A321PCF prototype (MSN 891) was seen doing taxi test in Orlando the other day. Will probably be in the air for certification tests pretty soon.
https://twitter.com/CargoFacts/status/1 ... 0120682498


Doesn't look like they moved the L1 door on this one.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:02 pm

You are correct. Precision retains the existing L1/R1 doors. https://www.precisionaircraft.com/a321/

Both versions carry the same number of pallets (14). Precision retains an operable rear door (L4), whereas EFW deactivates them all. Interesting to see the differences. I haven't seen a cockpit sketch of the EFW version, so I don't know whether it is smaller, which the smaller and more-forward crew door would suggest that it is.
 
wjcandee
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:31 am

Okay, I think I figured out the moving-the-door thing. This is just an EWAG, but...on the A320, perhaps EFW has to move the crew door, so the cargo door can be placed sufficiently-forward of the wing/engine. On the A321, there's more room there, so perhaps moving the door (and restricting the size of the cockpit) isn't strictly-speaking necessary. In order to have commonality between the two, EFW decided to have the cockpit be the same in both, and thus moved the door on the A321P2F. Because ATSG/Precision are only converting the A321, they can leave the passenger door where it is, and offer a larger cockpit, with the full existing forward lav, etc.

Again, only an EWAG but this makes some sense.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:04 am

From what I have heard, the EFW approach to move the L1 door forward and make it smaller was due to cost caving. Compared to making extensive structural modifications in the back of fuselage, EFW decided to rather make mods up front. If one compares the EFW brochure with the Precision one, it's clearly visible that the very first container on EFW frame is where the original L1 door was, but on Precision frame, the first ULD is positioned right after the L1 door, meaning that the EFW frame's COG is likely more forward.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 12457
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:22 am

MD80MKE wrote:
From what I have heard, the EFW approach to move the L1 door forward and make it smaller was due to cost caving. Compared to making extensive structural modifications in the back of fuselage, EFW decided to rather make mods up front. If one compares the EFW brochure with the Precision one, it's clearly visible that the very first container on EFW frame is where the original L1 door was, but on Precision frame, the first ULD is positioned right after the L1 door, meaning that the EFW frame's COG is likely more forward.


Can you elaborate a little bit? What were the structural modifications that Precision has to make in the rear that EFW doesn't? I'm not challenging you, just wanting to learn more and understand better.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:04 am

wjcandee wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
From what I have heard, the EFW approach to move the L1 door forward and make it smaller was due to cost caving. Compared to making extensive structural modifications in the back of fuselage, EFW decided to rather make mods up front. If one compares the EFW brochure with the Precision one, it's clearly visible that the very first container on EFW frame is where the original L1 door was, but on Precision frame, the first ULD is positioned right after the L1 door, meaning that the EFW frame's COG is likely more forward.


Can you elaborate a little bit? What were the structural modifications that Precision has to make in the rear that EFW doesn't? I'm not challenging you, just wanting to learn more and understand better.


Totally understand where you are coming from on these questions. Unfortunately, those details currently can only be answered by the engineers working for the two houses and in the future, by the operators once they are put into service. The information I've heard is not from the insiders either. Apologize for not having concrete sources/links.
 
QF744ER
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:07 am

Interestingly the first EFW converted A321PCF, which we know is destined for Express Freighters/QF is now shown as stored in XSP.

Still yet too see a photo of it post painting into the touted QF/Australia Post livery.
 
N91
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:39 pm

Any update/photo for the Qantas A321p2f?
 
a2b7
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:04 pm

QF744ER wrote:
Interestingly the first EFW converted A321PCF, which we know is destined for Express Freighters/QF is now shown as stored in XSP.

Still yet too see a photo of it post painting into the touted QF/Australia Post livery.

N91 wrote:
Any update/photo for the Qantas A321p2f?

There are several photos from 30 Aug 2020 on airliners.net, for example


By the way: Precision is making progress with their conversion program. The first A321-200PCF, N322WS, had its first post-conversion flight a few days ago, see https://www.precisionaircraft.com/first-flight-precision-conversions-a321-200pc-freighter/
 
MileHFL400
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:31 am

Forgive me, but I thought the first flight for the A321P2F was in Feb and first delivery was supposed to be August?
 
Someone83
Posts: 6258
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:40 am

a2b7 wrote:
By the way: Precision is making progress with their conversion program. The first A321-200PCF, N322WS, had its first post-conversion flight a few days ago, see https://www.precisionaircraft.com/first-flight-precision-conversions-a321-200pc-freighter/


Noticed that while the Airbus/ST Engineering conversion that Qantas used has a modified/smaller L1 door, the one from Precision Engineering seems to have kept the L1 door as is
 
Clydenairways
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:54 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Forgive me, but I thought the first flight for the A321P2F was in Feb and first delivery was supposed to be August?
see

This is a different conversation program by Precision.
 
eamondzhang
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Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:53 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Forgive me, but I thought the first flight for the A321P2F was in Feb and first delivery was supposed to be August?

EFW's first frame just delivered earlier this month and flew XSP-PER today: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... d#25c3fd6e

Will fly to MEL tomorrow.

Entry into service is unknown - maybe more knowledgable members like EK413 can provide us with more details

Michael
 
AB330
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:08 am

Considering how ubiquitous the A320 family is in the Philippines. The P2F is a potential game changer with growth of e-commerce here due to covid. I can potentially see local airlines may soon have a deciated fleet of freighter aircraft to cater to this demand. Right now only CEB/DG with there two ATR 72-500 are currently dedicated freighter aircraft in the country with the other being SEAair with there lone B737-200/Adv (SF). Although the viability of having more dedicated freighter aircraft isn't feasible at the moment due to excess passenger aircraft meeting the current demand. However once air travel for passengers start to recover after the long lockdowns the viability of acquiring a dedicated fleet of between 2 to 3 aircraft may become a potential again.
 
Someone83
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:15 am

Does anyone know which customers Precision has for their conversions? Or hasn't any operators been announced yet?
 
Fixinthe757
Posts: 328
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Re: A321 P2F first flight

Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:45 am

Here in Mobile we will be beginning 321P2F conversions in June. Dont know the customer(s) yet
 
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keesje
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First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:54 am

Seems the First P2F A321 entered service in Australia. It's a 27t freighter for over 4000km

Image
Photo: Nicholas Kimura

I guess availability of A321airframes for conversion is growing, driven by the Covid-19 slump and CEO replacements by NEO's.You can see the front door is replaced by a smaller one & others have been removed. And the big one added in front of the wing.

Imagehttps://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2020/10/first-a321p2f-enters-into-service-with-qantas.html

EFW, a conversion specialist is boosting it's container capability. There are also new lower deck cargo systems modifications being offered by third parties.

Image

Lots of Cargo aircraft up for replacement coming decade, 757s, A310s, MD80s, 737's, 727s. I guess UPS, SF Express, DHL and FEDEX are some of the portential customers being chased.

Newslink: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... lines.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:52 am

Just the right timing. Before, A321s were a bit pricey to convert. Not an issue today...


Lightsaber
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:02 pm

The A321 looks good in QF's livery, I hope this becomes a thing!

QF became an A32X operator very stealthily, could easily have missed the Qantaslink A320.
 
94717
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:05 pm

Could 738 be as efficient?
 
94717
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:07 pm

keesje wrote:
Seems the First P2F A321 entered service in Australia. It's a 27t freighter for over 4000km

Image
Photo: Nicholas Kimura

I guess availability of A321airframes for conversion is growing, driven by the Covid-19 slump and CEO replacements by NEO's.You can see the front door is replaced by a smaller one & others have been removed. And the big one added in front of the wing.

Imagehttps://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2020/10/first-a321p2f-enters-into-service-with-qantas.html

EFW, a conversion specialist is boosting it's container capability. There are also new lower deck cargo systems modifications being offered by third parties.

Image

Lots of Cargo aircraft up for replacement coming decade, 757s, A310s, MD80s, 737's, 727s. I guess UPS, SF Express, DHL and FEDEX are some of the portential customers being chased.

Newslink: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... lines.html


What does the belly containers mean for the cargo moving? Is that a big aspect compared to 752 / 753 or 737?
 
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GCT64
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:17 pm

According to FR24, it's started operating a nightly MEL-BNE-MEL rotation.
Out of MEL around 11PM, on the ground BNE from roughly midnight to 1AM, back into MEL between 4AM-5AM.
 
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Polot
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:20 pm

olle wrote:
Could 738 be as efficient?

Not sure what you mean by “efficient”. The 738P2F is a smaller aircraft that holds less, so it really depends on the desired volume. If you don’t need the extra space of the A321P2F then the 738P2F is an efficient option hence the 738 conversions.
 
mxaxai
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:46 pm

Polot wrote:
olle wrote:
Could 738 be as efficient?

Not sure what you mean by “efficient”. The 738P2F is a smaller aircraft that holds less, so it really depends on the desired volume. If you don’t need the extra space of the A321P2F then the 738P2F is an efficient option hence the 738 conversions.

A similar comparison would be the 737-400F and 757-200F in the past. Same generation, different size and market.
 
Someone83
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:48 pm

VH-ULD.....funny registration for a containerized freighter
 
PHLspecial
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Just the right timing. Before, A321s were a bit pricey to convert. Not an issue today...


Lightsaber

Why was the A321 pricey to convert? Was it because the A321 had a higher resell value than say something like the B738?
 
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Polot
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:38 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Just the right timing. Before, A321s were a bit pricey to convert. Not an issue today...


Lightsaber

Why was the A321 pricey to convert? Was it because the A321 had a higher resell value than say something like the B738?

Yes, resale value thus feedstock price was too high for most good examples to be worth it. Remember the A321 really didn’t start exploding in popularity until 10-15 years ago so a lot of A321s out there are fairly young.

Now of course due to the pandemic there is massive global overcapacity killing resale value which will result in plenty of gently used but unwanted planes available for conversion.
 
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keesje
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:07 pm

At some point, when there's lots around, someone will forget the procedures and not unload the containers just behind the cockpit last & w'll enjoy the first A321 horse standing photo's.

I wonder if it would make sense to get some IP from Ilyushin and offer the tail wheel as modification for cargo aircraft. It could improve speed and flexibility of cargo loading operations and make it more fool proof..

Image

Regarding LD3-45, massively used in Europe and Asia. The automatic cargo loading systems can be easily installed on every A321 not having them. For e.g. Fedex is might be a consideration, because they are compatible with their new SkyCourier and ATR72-F fleets.

LC Jetstar is already using them, so that could open up opportunities with Australia post flights.

Image
https://nl.dreamstime.com/redactionele- ... ge80357001
Last edited by keesje on Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:02 pm

keesje wrote:
At some point, when there's lots around, someone will forget the procedures and not unload the containers just behind the cockpit last & w'll enjoy the first A321 horse standing photo's.

I wonder if it would make sense to get some IP from Ilyushin and offer the tail wheel as modification for cargo aircraft. It could improve speed and flexibility of cargo loading operations and make it more fool proof..


It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion.

You can see the yellow nose gear strap in this photo

Image

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-deal/

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s
 
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lightsaber
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:37 pm

Polot wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Just the right timing. Before, A321s were a bit pricey to convert. Not an issue today...


Lightsaber

Why was the A321 pricey to convert? Was it because the A321 had a higher resell value than say something like the B738?

Yes, resale value thus feedstock price was too high for most good examples to be worth it. Remember the A321 really didn’t start exploding in popularity until 10-15 years ago so a lot of A321s out there are fairly young.

Now of course due to the pandemic there is massive global overcapacity killing resale value which will result in plenty of gently used but unwanted planes available for conversion.

Yes, I meant the feedstock, before Covid19, was pricey. Judging by the aircraft values and lease threads, used A321CEOs are 20% to 30% cheaper.

The 321 is an incredibly useful frame, but it took engine PiPs and Sharklets. I could bore everyone on the engine overhaul intervals of back then and now. What matters is saving a few hundred bucks per takeoff in fuel and maintenance made the type very popular.

Now they can be popular freight stock. :spin:

Lightsaber
 
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keesje
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:23 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
At some point, when there's lots around, someone will forget the procedures and not unload the containers just behind the cockpit last & w'll enjoy the first A321 horse standing photo's.

I wonder if it would make sense to get some IP from Ilyushin and offer the tail wheel as modification for cargo aircraft. It could improve speed and flexibility of cargo loading operations and make it more fool proof..


It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion.

You can see the yellow nose gear strap in this photo

Image

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-deal/

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


I have seen so many photo's of jets tipping, A310, A320, 737, 727, 747, M11. Probably if you push a few heavy containers into the tail of an empty A321 it will tip to. Would be great if there was a switch next to the parking break solving the limitations, risks forever. I guess there is a procedure to load first, unload front containers last for the A321F.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:58 am

keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
At some point, when there's lots around, someone will forget the procedures and not unload the containers just behind the cockpit last & w'll enjoy the first A321 horse standing photo's.

I wonder if it would make sense to get some IP from Ilyushin and offer the tail wheel as modification for cargo aircraft. It could improve speed and flexibility of cargo loading operations and make it more fool proof..


It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion.

You can see the yellow nose gear strap in this photo

Image

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-deal/

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


I have seen so many photo's of jets tipping, A310, A320, 737, 727, 747, M11. Probably if you push a few heavy containers into the tail of an empty A321 it will tip to. Would be great if there was a switch next to the parking break solving the limitations, risks forever. I guess there is a procedure to load first, unload front containers last for the A321F.


Correct. Airplanes will tip of not loaded correctly. That’s why there are tie down straps for the nose gear. It barely takes any more time than it does to install chocks. Far simpler, lighter and cheaper than to build an integrated tail stand.
 
EBT
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Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:37 am

keesje wrote:

Regarding LD3-45, massively used in Europe and Asia. The automatic cargo loading systems can be easily installed on every A321 not having them. For e.g. Fedex is might be a consideration, because they are compatible with their new SkyCourier and ATR72-F fleets.

LC Jetstar is already using them, so that could open up opportunities with Australia post flights.


Some may be interested to know that the reason Jetstar uses ULDs for baggage is primarily due to occupational health and safety, rather than loading efficiency. When they were evaluating the A320, it became apparent that to have them bulk-loaded that somebody would have to be a spotter to make sure that the guys loading the bags in the hold didn't fall out. That's not an issue with ULDs. With Australian labour costs significantly high by world standards, that makes it more economic to use ULDs than have an extra person as the spotter. Not so the case in a lot of places with different health and safety regs and labour costs, so the ULD-capable A320/1s tend to be limited to fewer operators.

Because of that, I would expect that Qantas will use the cans on the lower level, especially once the ex-JQ birds are converted.

Funny story - I worked for JQ when they acquired the used A321s and had to retrofit the ULD handling system. Somebody goofed up on the delivery and the first system was sent to the fleet project manager in Melbourne rather than the MRO base in Newcastle. He had fun trying to maneuver the 8ft and decently weighed boxes into the lift to get them out of the way.
 
QF744ER
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:30 am

Has it actually been confirmed how many A321PCF’s QF/Australia Post are taking?

I seem to recall it being 3 which included a JQ A321 -VWY, which is coincidentally in XSP now.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:46 am

QF744ER wrote:
Has it actually been confirmed how many A321PCF’s QF/Australia Post are taking?

I seem to recall it being 3 which included a JQ A321 -VWY, which is coincidentally in XSP now.


The answer of zero. PCFs are Precision converted A321s compared to the EFW converted A321P2Fs that QF is getting. But you are right, VH-VWY is the next one being converted for Qantas Freight, the frame is owned by Keystone Holdings.
 
QF744ER
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:08 am

MD80MKE wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
Has it actually been confirmed how many A321PCF’s QF/Australia Post are taking?

I seem to recall it being 3 which included a JQ A321 -VWY, which is coincidentally in XSP now.


The answer of zero. PCFs are Precision converted A321s compared to the EFW converted A321P2Fs that QF is getting. But you are right, VH-VWY is the next one being converted for Qantas Freight, the frame is owned by Keystone Holdings.


Cheers MD80MKE...my apologies there regarding codings.

So just confirming -VWY will be P2F #2 for QF freight?
 
MD80MKE
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Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:49 pm

QF744ER wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
Has it actually been confirmed how many A321PCF’s QF/Australia Post are taking?

I seem to recall it being 3 which included a JQ A321 -VWY, which is coincidentally in XSP now.


The answer of zero. PCFs are Precision converted A321s compared to the EFW converted A321P2Fs that QF is getting. But you are right, VH-VWY is the next one being converted for Qantas Freight, the frame is owned by Keystone Holdings.


Cheers MD80MKE...my apologies there regarding codings.

So just confirming -VWY will be P2F #2 for QF freight?

That's correct. The third one will likely be coming from JQ fleet, though no confirmation yet.
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1786
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:52 pm

I think I read somewhere that Titan are getting A321 freighters as well
 
a2b7
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:50 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Titan are getting A321 freighters as well

Yes, Titan will get A321P2Fs as well, see https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... th-a321fs/
They will get MSN 1238 G-DHJH, which is the second A321 that went to XSP for conversion, and the first A321P2F with CFM56 engines, because VH-ULD has V2500 engines.
Titan will also get MSN 1250 G-NIKO, which is already at XSP as well, see planespotters.net
Both airframes for Titan are ex-Thomas Cook.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:52 pm

a2b7 wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Titan are getting A321 freighters as well

Yes, Titan will get A321P2Fs as well, see https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... th-a321fs/
They will get MSN 1238 G-DHJH, which is the second A321 that went to XSP for conversion, and the first A321P2F with CFM56 engines, because VH-ULD has V2500 engines.
Titan will also get MSN 1250 G-NIKO, which is already at XSP as well, see planespotters.net

Both frames should be done and re-delivered to Titan early November.
 
a2b7
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:06 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Titan are getting A321 freighters as well

Yes, Titan will get A321P2Fs as well, see https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... th-a321fs/
They will get MSN 1238 G-DHJH, which is the second A321 that went to XSP for conversion, and the first A321P2F with CFM56 engines, because VH-ULD has V2500 engines.
Titan will also get MSN 1250 G-NIKO, which is already at XSP as well, see planespotters.net

Both frames should be done and re-delivered to Titan early November.

Do you know whether the 4th A321 to be converted in the P2F program is already at XSP?
 
B777LRF
Posts: 3276
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:55 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion (....)

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


Saying it's common practice only holds truth if you apply a very narrow view. The most common is, in fact, to use standard procedures and enforce them strictly.

Using a nose-tether has it's own particular set of risks, namely the potential for rather dramatic nose-gear damages if the ground crews become complacent.

I worked for 15 years in ground safety with one of the big integrators, operating anything from Caravans over the entire Boeing freighter range, A300s and the MD-11. We never used nose-tether on any type, only used tail-stands of the pogo type on a select few types (727-100, DC-8 and CV-580) and we never sat anything on its tail. The purpose of a nose-tether and tail-stand is not to alleviate load; they're a last resort in case something goes bad. Trick is, as mentioned in the beginning, to have well trained staff following strict procedures, and ensure those procedures are regularly enforced and audited.

My knowledge of the A321 is limited, but they tend to be a bit on the nose-heavy side. Considering the P2F has two full positions forward of the cargo door (which will always be loaded first and off-loaded last), it seems to be a very ground-stable aircraft indeed. The 757 has one position forward of the door, and is forgiving of quite large loading sequence breaches. The 767 and 777 are even better; the latter is all but impossible to tail-tip (aft hold full, all positions aft of the CG on the main-deck full, still won't tip unless you've got wing-tanks full and centre tank empty). The 747 is only susceptible if using the nose-door and making a mockery of loading/unloading sequence, whereas the MD-11 will sit on it's arse with ease; the dry index of a MD-11F is in the 95ish range and it'll tip at index 100. There are only two MD-11F operators in the world who haven't tipped one, and neither of them have ever used a nose-tether.
 
MD80MKE
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:26 am

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:07 am

a2b7 wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
Yes, Titan will get A321P2Fs as well, see https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... th-a321fs/
They will get MSN 1238 G-DHJH, which is the second A321 that went to XSP for conversion, and the first A321P2F with CFM56 engines, because VH-ULD has V2500 engines.
Titan will also get MSN 1250 G-NIKO, which is already at XSP as well, see planespotters.net

Both frames should be done and re-delivered to Titan early November.

Do you know whether the 4th A321 to be converted in the P2F program is already at XSP?


If you look upthread, JetStar VH-VWY has already entered XSP the end of last month. Furthermore, MSN 1017 for SmartLynx Malta will enter ST Aerospace Guangzhou by the end of November to kick off EFW's second site.
 
GSOtoIND
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:32 am

B777LRF wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion (....)

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


Saying it's common practice only holds truth if you apply a very narrow view. The most common is, in fact, to use standard procedures and enforce them strictly.

Using a nose-tether has it's own particular set of risks, namely the potential for rather dramatic nose-gear damages if the ground crews become complacent.

I worked for 15 years in ground safety with one of the big integrators, operating anything from Caravans over the entire Boeing freighter range, A300s and the MD-11. We never used nose-tether on any type, only used tail-stands of the pogo type on a select few types (727-100, DC-8 and CV-580) and we never sat anything on its tail. The purpose of a nose-tether and tail-stand is not to alleviate load; they're a last resort in case something goes bad. Trick is, as mentioned in the beginning, to have well trained staff following strict procedures, and ensure those procedures are regularly enforced and audited.

My knowledge of the A321 is limited, but they tend to be a bit on the nose-heavy side. Considering the P2F has two full positions forward of the cargo door (which will always be loaded first and off-loaded last), it seems to be a very ground-stable aircraft indeed. The 757 has one position forward of the door, and is forgiving of quite large loading sequence breaches. The 767 and 777 are even better; the latter is all but impossible to tail-tip (aft hold full, all positions aft of the CG on the main-deck full, still won't tip unless you've got wing-tanks full and centre tank empty). The 747 is only susceptible if using the nose-door and making a mockery of loading/unloading sequence, whereas the MD-11 will sit on it's arse with ease; the dry index of a MD-11F is in the 95ish range and it'll tip at index 100. There are only two MD-11F operators in the world who haven't tipped one, and neither of them have ever used a nose-tether.

Very interesting insights. I enjoyed reading in the tech/ops thread on cargo door placement about the precautions taken to keep the MD11 on all fours. As always, RTFM (read the flipping manual) prevents many problems. I suppose I've driven down I-70 by the FedEx ramp so many times that I've not really noticed that they don't use tail stands. The A321 (and the rest of the A320 family, really) does have a fairly forward wing position, so there is quite a bit of airplane aft of the MLG. Are any passenger A321 operators using tail stands? I know they're used with the 738/739, but that's obviously not a direct comparison.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 1316
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: First A321P2F enters into service with Qantas for Australia Post

Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:10 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It’s been common practice for years to either use nose gear straps or tail stands when loading freighters. The idea of installing a tail wheel that Ilyishin designed is ridiculous in my opinion (....)

Does the A321 have significant enough weight and balance concerns to need a nose gear strap? I haven’t seen them used on 757 as often as on the widebodies. They are more commonly used on widebodies like 747s and MD11s


Saying it's common practice only holds truth if you apply a very narrow view. The most common is, in fact, to use standard procedures and enforce them strictly.

Using a nose-tether has it's own particular set of risks, namely the potential for rather dramatic nose-gear damages if the ground crews become complacent.

I worked for 15 years in ground safety with one of the big integrators, operating anything from Caravans over the entire Boeing freighter range, A300s and the MD-11. We never used nose-tether on any type, only used tail-stands of the pogo type on a select few types (727-100, DC-8 and CV-580) and we never sat anything on its tail. The purpose of a nose-tether and tail-stand is not to alleviate load; they're a last resort in case something goes bad. Trick is, as mentioned in the beginning, to have well trained staff following strict procedures, and ensure those procedures are regularly enforced and audited.

My knowledge of the A321 is limited, but they tend to be a bit on the nose-heavy side. Considering the P2F has two full positions forward of the cargo door (which will always be loaded first and off-loaded last), it seems to be a very ground-stable aircraft indeed. The 757 has one position forward of the door, and is forgiving of quite large loading sequence breaches. The 767 and 777 are even better; the latter is all but impossible to tail-tip (aft hold full, all positions aft of the CG on the main-deck full, still won't tip unless you've got wing-tanks full and centre tank empty). The 747 is only susceptible if using the nose-door and making a mockery of loading/unloading sequence, whereas the MD-11 will sit on it's arse with ease; the dry index of a MD-11F is in the 95ish range and it'll tip at index 100. There are only two MD-11F operators in the world who haven't tipped one, and neither of them have ever used a nose-tether.


I agree with what you say. I believe that you’d probably agree that putting an integrated deploying tail wheel on the A321 like Keesje suggested from the Il62 is ridiculous.
 
a2b7
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A321 P2F enters service

Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:21 pm

MD80MKE wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
Both frames should be done and re-delivered to Titan early November.

Do you know whether the 4th A321 to be converted in the P2F program is already at XSP?


If you look upthread, JetStar VH-VWY has already entered XSP the end of last month. Furthermore, MSN 1017 for SmartLynx Malta will enter ST Aerospace Guangzhou by the end of November to kick off EFW's second site.

Thanks for the update about the start of conversion at Guangzhou.
I am afraid the conversion of VH-VWY has not started yet. It flew SIN-DRW today according to https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-vwy
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