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Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:21 am

Seattle Times ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... estore-it/ ) reports:

Calhoun announced that the development work Boeing has been doing for several years on the NMA is starting over.

Boeing had hoped to have that jet in service by 2025 but the concept—an aircraft intermediate in size and range between the narrowbody and widebody jet segments—has been overtaken by Airbus’s huge sales success in selling its contender in that jet category, the A321neo.

The delay in launching the NMA means Boeing must now think even further ahead, taking account of developing Chinese competition.

“Things have changed a bit. The competitive playing field is a bit different. We have to plan for China,” Calhoun said. “We’re going to start with a clean sheet of paper again.”


And he indicated that the lessons learned from the MAX accidents, especially the change in thinking about how flight crews handle emergencies, could have a profound impact on that next new airplane design.

“We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” he said. “We’ve always favored airplanes that required more pilot flying than maybe our competitor did. We are all going to have to get our heads around exactly what we want” in future.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:22 am

Sounds like NSA instead of NMA
 
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Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:25 am

Seattle Times ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... estore-it/ ) reports:

Calhoun announced that the development work Boeing has been doing for several years on the NMA is starting over.

Boeing had hoped to have that jet in service by 2025 but the concept—an aircraft intermediate in size and range between the narrowbody and widebody jet segments—has been overtaken by Airbus’s huge sales success in selling its contender in that jet category, the A321neo.

The delay in launching the NMA means Boeing must now think even further ahead, taking account of developing Chinese competition.

“Things have changed a bit. The competitive playing field is a bit different. We have to plan for China,” Calhoun said. “We’re going to start with a clean sheet of paper again.”

So NMA is facing a reboot at best: the foot dragging went on too long, and now the Chinese competition is viewed as a concern.

And he indicated that the lessons learned from the MAX accidents, especially the change in thinking about how flight crews handle emergencies, could have a profound impact on that next new airplane design.

We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” he said. “We’ve always favored airplanes that required more pilot flying than maybe our competitor did. We are all going to have to get our heads around exactly what we want” in future.

This mirrors what I wrote in the MAX grounding thread, it's not realistic to expect new pilots who have had smartphones as youngsters to be able to deal with a cockpit with low levels of automation. The cost to train such new entrants would end up being too high. Now is a good time to take the lessons learned from MAX and project what you can expect new entrants to be able to do by the time NMA is ready for market.
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global1
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:35 am

If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:37 am

global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?

My best guess would be A330neo.
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:37 am

The main issue was the NMA was going to not properly complete with the a321neo, which is smashing the Boeing equivalents in sales. As it was a widebody, it would be heavier then the a321neo and probably end up competing with the a330 neo and 787.

As the 737 is now at the end of its life and will probably not be in production past 2030, the NSA is very much now needed. I'd imagine they would start out with the larger variations to complete with the a321neo and eventually develop a cut down version as the 737-8 replacement.
 
JayBCN
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:39 am

global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?


A330s
 
global1
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:40 am

A330-800 neo perhaps, with a good deal from Airbus to jump start sales of this model?

Can't say Delta is Boeing averse in this case They've stated repeatedly that they wanted to be the launch customer. Boeing just won't have anything to offer.
 
TObound
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:46 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Sounds like NSA instead of NMA


Pcoder wrote:
The main issue was the NMA was going to not properly complete with the a321neo, which is smashing the Boeing equivalents in sales. As it was a widebody, it would be heavier then the a321neo and probably end up competing with the a330 neo and 787.

As the 737 is now at the end of its life and will probably not be in production past 2030, the NSA is very much now needed. I'd imagine they would start out with the larger variations to complete with the a321neo and eventually develop a cut down version as the 737-8 replacement.


Agreed. That language almost like a pivot to a larger narrowbody. Whether they call it NMA or NSA is irrelevant. It's looking like the market is moving towards 200 seaters as the dominant narrowbody size with shorter 200 seaters for LCCs (Max 200) and longer ones for mainlines (321NEO).

Arguably a third slightly longer version is needed to get 200 seats as in mainline long haul config (with lie flat J). This is where the XLR is a compromise. Start from scratch and they can make a narrowbody family that would cover all those categories.
 
SA280
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:50 am

Boeing is certainly going to use Embraer's engineering resources and experience in delivering new projects on time and on budget.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:53 am

What Chinese competition? Link?
 
TObound
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:56 am

Revelation wrote:

And he indicated that the lessons learned from the MAX accidents, especially the change in thinking about how flight crews handle emergencies, could have a profound impact on that next new airplane design.

We might have to start with the flight control philosophy before we actually get to the airplane,” he said. “We’ve always favored airplanes that required more pilot flying than maybe our competitor did. We are all going to have to get our heads around exactly what we want” in future.


This mirrors what I wrote in the MAX grounding thread, it's not realistic to expect new pilots who have had smartphones as youngsters to be able to deal with a cockpit with low levels of automation. The cost to train such new entrants would end up being too high. Now is a good time to take the lessons learned from MAX and project what you can expect new entrants to be able to do by the time NMA is ready for market.


Read this about the A220:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... next-level

That Rockwell Collins Pro Line Fusion cockpit sounds fantastic. Maybe Boeing should simply go off-the-shelf with this one and outsource the cockpit to RC.

Given how many pilots learn to fly or build multi-IFR time on King Airs and how prolific that RC product is proving elsewhere, they could probably reduce training time doing that.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:07 am

TObound wrote:
That Rockwell Collins Pro Line Fusion cockpit sounds fantastic. Maybe Boeing should simply go off-the-shelf with this one and outsource the cockpit to RC.

Given how many pilots learn to fly or build multi-IFR time on King Airs and how prolific that RC product is proving elsewhere, they could probably reduce training time doing that.

Seems they are already paying Collins to do the heavy lifting on the 737 flight control computer, might as well be paying for a modern product, one that is being used by so many other products.

Maybe they can go for a common type rating with A220? :biggrin: :stirthepot:

It does run counter to the (previous ?) strategy of trying to capture a larger share of the lifetime spend on the airframe i.e. squeeze the vendors harder.
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Antaras
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:14 am

What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)
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TObound
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:14 am

Revelation wrote:
TObound wrote:
That Rockwell Collins Pro Line Fusion cockpit sounds fantastic. Maybe Boeing should simply go off-the-shelf with this one and outsource the cockpit to RC.

Given how many pilots learn to fly or build multi-IFR time on King Airs and how prolific that RC product is proving elsewhere, they could probably reduce training time doing that.

Seems they are already paying Collins to do the heavy lifting on the 737 flight control computer, might as well be paying for a modern product, one that is being used by so many other products.

Maybe they can go for a common type rating with A220? :biggrin: :stirthepot:

It does run counter to the (previous ?) strategy of trying to capture a larger share of the lifetime spend on the airframe i.e. squeeze the vendors harder.


We have open source and increasingly common interface and operating philosophies on many other technologies. Why not airliners?

I'd love to see all these airframers outsource cockpits to avionics shops who work to common design standards and layouts. The industry's goal should be a standard cockpit for everything from a 50-seater to a double decker jumbo. Similar control laws. Everything. Create an industry forum who will dictate best practices and work to that.

Won't ever happen because then the OEMs can't hold their large customers hostage. But I am a crazy dreamer like that.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:15 am

Dieuwer wrote:
What Chinese competition? Link?

There is a small chance that Boeing will be *slapped* by the COMAC C919.
Small, you know....
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ikramerica
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:16 am

The whole paradigm of piloting is based now on 100 year old control and interface concepts. Not as much Airbus but its shades of gray.
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LDRA
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:18 am

757 replacement :o !
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:18 am

Dieuwer wrote:
What Chinese competition? Link?

AFAIK There's only the Comac C919 - a narrowbody competitor to the 737 and A320, currently in development hell, and the CR929, a JV with the Russians aimed at the 787/A350 by the look of it.

Hard to know which one he means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:22 am

If by Chinese competition they mean the A320-sized C919 and the 787-sized CR929 I don't think the definition of Middle Of the Market changes at all.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:33 am

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
If by Chinese competition they mean the A320-sized C919 and the 787-sized CR929 I don't think the definition of Middle Of the Market changes at all.


Yes. Boeing will get clapped bu a potential C91.59.
223 319 320 321 332 333 346 388 734 737 738 739 38M 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 77W 788 789 208 CRJ2 E145 E190 UA DL AA WN AC CM 4O AV 2K FI DY D8 SK LH EI FR U2 IB OS LX BA VS BT PS MS SA SW QR EY HY AI 9W TG SQ MH AK D7 QZ BR NH CA QF MI
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:33 am

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
If by Chinese competition they mean the A320-sized C919 and the 787-sized CR929 I don't think the definition of Middle Of the Market changes at all.



Them starting again seems to imply that this may be a 737 and nma (the smaller end of it) sort of airplane. That's why they are concerned about the C919.

Also, if the C919 gets to a decent production rate, you can imagine that the Chinese will have a preference for it over the 737.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:36 am

Pcoder wrote:
The main issue was the NMA was going to not properly complete with the a321neo, which is smashing the Boeing equivalents in sales. As it was a widebody, it would be heavier then the a321neo and probably end up competing with the a330 neo and 787.

As the 737 is now at the end of its life and will probably not be in production past 2030, the NSA is very much now needed. I'd imagine they would start out with the larger variations to complete with the a321neo and eventually develop a cut down version as the 737-8 replacement.

That's a valid opinion, but IMO it's not what the CEO is saying, what he's saying is along the lines they have to look further down the road to the point in time where the Chinese are able to compete.

In essence A321 has taken this round of the fight just like 777 pushed the A340 out of the market and A330 pushed 767 out of the market.

IMO something different from and better than A321 needs to be produced.

You don't aim for where the puck is, you aim for where it's going to be.

TObound wrote:
We have open source and increasingly common interface and operating philosophies on many other technologies. Why not airliners?

I'd love to see all these airframers outsource cockpits to avionics shops who work to common design standards and layouts. The industry's goal should be a standard cockpit for everything from a 50-seater to a double decker jumbo. Similar control laws. Everything. Create an industry forum who will dictate best practices and work to that.

Won't ever happen because then the OEMs can't hold their large customers hostage. But I am a crazy dreamer like that.

That, plus the big OEMs like the high barrier to entry, it's what keeps the duopoly going.

BaconButty wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
What Chinese competition? Link?

AFAIK There's only the Comac C919 - a narrowbody competitor to the 737 and A320, currently in development hell, and the CR929, a JV with the Russians aimed at the 787/A350 by the look of it.

Hard to know which one he means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929

Perhaps the Chinese reference is just a bit of fear mongering, maybe a ploy for sympathy from the government?

Before the MAX tragedy most sources suggested China was not making enough progress to catch up to Boeing or Airbus.

Now it may be helpful to Boeing to portray China as a threat.
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:58 am

Yes you aim for where the puck is going to be. I've been saying for a while that by 2030 should have the C919 figured out and being produced in great numbers. A me to 6W single aisle just won't cut it - it may have to be something with a lot more advanced aero - quasi blended wing 7W or that Bi-wing concept they were showing.

I doubt it will be a classic tube and wing.

Yay - finally we may see something more advanced and interesting.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:04 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Sounds like NSA instead of NMA


Once more time, NO...
 
Boeing1978
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:05 am

That is quite a statement Calhoun made. Boeing has spent a lot of time (from what we have heard, anyway) on the NMA engineering and business case, just to now say it's back to square one? Seriously? Wow.

If this means Boeing is getting serious about building a 21st century single-aisle, I say "good!" Make it happen.
And while you're at it, make peace with your employees and treat them with respect for a change.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:08 am

Revelation wrote:
global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?

My best guess would be A330neo.

Or ... 787-8...
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:15 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?

My best guess would be A330neo.

Or ... 787-8...


Unlikely. A330neo would be more likely since DL and any operator with A330ceo since they would have that already in house.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:19 am

Boeing1978 wrote:
And while you're at it, make peace with your employees and treat them with respect for a change.

If you read the whole article, it seems clear that he's saying such things are his main mission.

His first session with the press followed a webcast with employees, in which he was asked difficult questions about the culture at the company, he said.

“I believe this culture is a good one. Employees care about safety,” he said. “But their confidence right now is shaken—my job is to restore it.”

And:

Calhoun said he intends to “simplify everything” by pushing out new initiatives and even long-term planning to concentrate tightly on “the return of the MAX, … standing up improvements in the engineering function, … (and) shining bright lights on the safety process.”

“We’re not giving up on the future,” he said. “But for me, my attention and that of my executive team, I simply want to be focused on this set of issues.”


However, if you read the rest of the article he still doesn't acknowledge that the no sim training mandate and other fiscal pressures had an influence on the mistakes made on MCAS, and treats the guy who is the focus of the email/text dump (Forkner) as a scapegoat. He treats him as an exception rather than the rule, without giving any real reason to believe this is true.

I think his main job is restoring trust between management and employees, and isn't really off to a great start. He seems to be avoiding dealing with some pretty key issues, one the employees know exist.
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:20 am

I wonder if this affects the potential 767-400X?
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:23 am

Not sure I understand what he is saying, he is new in the top job but the job position has been doing the bidding of the board for years.
The 757 sales dried up so they correctly killed it, then the market started advancing and the A321 took off, the board decided it was not critical enough for a new build so they used the 737 and have continued to do so to the MAX 200, now they are talking about watching the Chinese? Really, I am thinking this is more distraction, for who I do not know because no one has deferred ordering A321's while waiting for the NMA, including UA.

The NMA they spoke about was going above the A321 and take it head on only on a limited number of routes, along with new production methods that seemed to be a realistic option. Maybe they want to do two at the same time and are looking for launch aid, 737 replacement and NMA at the same time, one narrow one wide.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:23 am

JayBCN wrote:
global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?


A330s


Good luck to them filling an additional ~100 extra seats. The A330 was a DC-10 replacement, not a 767 replacement.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:25 am

Leave short-haul NB to EMB-JV. 737 legacy and MAX jinx will end, Fresh E2, different CAA, low cost to compete with China
Build a 150(2 Class) 10 hr endurance Small Capacity Long Range. Don't make it too big to cook CASM numbers.
Tweak 788
Cancel 777X
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:35 am

morrisond wrote:
Yes you aim for where the puck is going to be. I've been saying for a while that by 2030 should have the C919 figured out and being produced in great numbers. A me to 6W single aisle just won't cut it - it may have to be something with a lot more advanced aero - quasi blended wing 7W or that Bi-wing concept they were showing.

I doubt it will be a classic tube and wing.

Yay - finally we may see something more advanced and interesting.


Absolutely agree.

Boeing has a HUGE technological reservoir!

Despite what is happening, the design offices remain very active. NMA, FSA, NSA, 767-X were presented.

I've always said, the 737MAX will still fly for a very long time.

I see the future with a new aircraft above the 737MAX and an electric aircraft of 100 to 150 passengers by 2035 ..

The "Honeydew" concept , was the concept for what I trust in an "ovoid" 7-abreast fuselage "NMA-MK1"

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archiv ... concepts05

Middle Of Market (MOM) is a very old name at Boeing (since the 60s and 70s). They have thousands of concepts until now. The 757/767 were the fruit of these studies while the 707 and 727 were MoM's already...
Last edited by Checklist787 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:04 am, edited 8 times in total.
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:35 am

par13del wrote:
Not sure I understand what he is saying, he is new in the top job but the job position has been doing the bidding of the board for years.
The 757 sales dried up so they correctly killed it, then the market started advancing and the A321 took off, the board decided it was not critical enough for a new build so they used the 737 and have continued to do so to the MAX 200, now they are talking about watching the Chinese? Really, I am thinking this is more distraction, for who I do not know because no one has deferred ordering A321's while waiting for the NMA, including UA.

The NMA they spoke about was going above the A321 and take it head on only on a limited number of routes, along with new production methods that seemed to be a realistic option. Maybe they want to do two at the same time and are looking for launch aid, 737 replacement and NMA at the same time, one narrow one wide.

Who knows what to make of it.

I'm sure the CEOs of the various entities that were saying positive things about NMA must be calling their contacts at Boeing and asking for some clarification on the CEO's statement.

I wouldn't be surprised as I wrote above if the mention of the Chinese was a ploy to get sympathy (and more) from the government.
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1989worstyear
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:49 am

Boeing1978 wrote:
That is quite a statement Calhoun made. Boeing has spent a lot of time (from what we have heard, anyway) on the NMA engineering and business case, just to now say it's back to square one? Seriously? Wow.

If this means Boeing is getting serious about building a 21st century single-aisle, I say "good!" Make it happen.
And while you're at it, make peace with your employees and treat them with respect for a change.


The only 21st Century single aisle is the A220. Talking about glazing over an opportunity and throwing a fit at the government instead :footinmouth:
Last edited by 1989worstyear on Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:49 am

Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That’s at least two types, if not three. You’d need different fuselages and different wings if you wanted to be efficient at the 100-seat level and the 220-seat level.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
User avatar
N776AU
Posts: 995
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:58 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?

My best guess would be A330neo.

Or ... 787-8...

Didn’t Delta already publicly say they weren’t interested in the 787?
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
planecane
Posts: 1432
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:59 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Leave short-haul NB to EMB-JV. 737 legacy and MAX jinx will end, Fresh E2, different CAA, low cost to compete with China
Build a 150(2 Class) 10 hr endurance Small Capacity Long Range. Don't make it too big to cook CASM numbers.
Tweak 788
Cancel 777X

Cancel 77X when it's about to make first flight and a huge percentage of the investment in it is already spent?
 
planecane
Posts: 1432
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:03 am

Checklist787 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Yes you aim for where the puck is going to be. I've been saying for a while that by 2030 should have the C919 figured out and being produced in great numbers. A me to 6W single aisle just won't cut it - it may have to be something with a lot more advanced aero - quasi blended wing 7W or that Bi-wing concept they were showing.

I doubt it will be a classic tube and wing.

Yay - finally we may see something more advanced and interesting.


Absolutely agree.

Boeing has a HUGE technological reservoir!

Despite what is happening, the design offices remain very active. NMA, FSA, NSA, 767-X were presented.

I've always said, the 737MAX will still fly for a very long time.

I see the future with a new aircraft above the 737MAX and an electric aircraft of 100 to 150 passengers by 2035 ..

"Honeydew" , was the concept for what I trust in an "ovoid" 7-abreast fuselage NMA-MK1

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archiv ... concepts05

Middle Of Market (MOM) is a very old name at Boeing (since the 60s and 70s). They have thousands of concepts until now. The 757/767 were the fruit of these studies while the 707 and 727 were MoM's already...


There is zero chance of an electric aircraft over 100 seats and usable payload range will be technologically and financially feasible in less than 15 years. Maybe some kind of fuel cell electric but not battery powered.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 512
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:08 am

[code][/code]
N776AU wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
My best guess would be A330neo.

Or ... 787-8...

Didn’t Delta already publicly say they weren’t interested in the 787?


Don't they have the right to change their minds?

The 787-8 can be a nice bridge for a 767 replacement for them...
 
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BoeingVista
Posts: 2045
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:08 am

Revelation wrote:
This mirrors what I wrote in the MAX grounding thread, it's not realistic to expect new pilots who have had smartphones as youngsters to be able to deal with a cockpit with low levels of automation. The cost to train such new entrants would end up being too high. Now is a good time to take the lessons learned from MAX and project what you can expect new entrants to be able to do by the time NMA is ready for market.


Thats BS really, not even Boeing was thinking of building NMA without a proper EICAS it would just not be certifiable as a clean sheet design. Boeing are just trying to find excuses that don't include "we're shelving NMA because the MAX is stinking so badly we don't have the resources to do both and our shareholders insist we fix the MAX first"
BV
 
AndyW35
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:54 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:11 am

Checklist787 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Yes you aim for where the puck is going to be. I've been saying for a while that by 2030 should have the C919 figured out and being produced in great numbers. A me to 6W single aisle just won't cut it - it may have to be something with a lot more advanced aero - quasi blended wing 7W or that Bi-wing concept they were showing.

I doubt it will be a classic tube and wing.

Yay - finally we may see something more advanced and interesting.


Absolutely agree.

Boeing has a HUGE technological reservoir!

Despite what is happening, the design offices remain very active. NMA, FSA, NSA, 767-X were presented.

I've always said, the 737MAX will still fly for a very long time.

I see the future with a new aircraft above the 737MAX and an electric aircraft of 100 to 150 passengers by 2035 ..

The "Honeydew" concept , was the concept for what I trust in an "ovoid" 7-abreast fuselage "NMA-MK1"

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archiv ... concepts05

Middle Of Market (MOM) is a very old name at Boeing (since the 60s and 70s). They have thousands of concepts until now. The 757/767 were the fruit of these studies while the 707 and 727 were MoM's already...


Considering Max , issues with 777x and previous issues with new tech on 787, I would guess it would be more conservative than radical. Time is shorter now with this new start from scratch approach too.
 
User avatar
NameOmitted
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:59 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:14 am

Revelation wrote:
global1 wrote:
If they're starting with a clean sheet of paper, it seems doubtful that they'll have a timely offering to replace the Delta 767-300 fleet

What's most likely to fill that role now?

My best guess would be A330neo.


Or the 767 X. Since the engineering is being done (and paid for) to make the freighters emissions compliant, and since there won't be a MOM to complete with, perhaps its time to give the 767 a new cabin.
Last edited by NameOmitted on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:18 am

Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That plane exists. It's the A320 series. You're basically asking them to build a better A320 than the A320 - which is fine and laudable, but by the time you got it in the air, Airbus would be planning for the future, as well as having whatever incremental improvements already baked into the 320N series.

hOMSaR wrote:
Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That’s at least two types, if not three. You’d need different fuselages and different wings if you wanted to be efficient at the 100-seat level and the 220-seat level.


Exactly. A good A318 and 319 mean a bad A321, and vice versa.
Last edited by IADCA on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:19 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Revelation wrote:
This mirrors what I wrote in the MAX grounding thread, it's not realistic to expect new pilots who have had smartphones as youngsters to be able to deal with a cockpit with low levels of automation. The cost to train such new entrants would end up being too high. Now is a good time to take the lessons learned from MAX and project what you can expect new entrants to be able to do by the time NMA is ready for market.


Thats BS really, not even Boeing was thinking of building NMA without a proper EICAS it would just not be certifiable as a clean sheet design. Boeing are just trying to find excuses that don't include "we're shelving NMA because the MAX is stinking so badly we don't have the resources to do both and our shareholders insist we fix the MAX first"


Exactly! He’s shelving it because it’s never going to be green lit as is, so have a handful of designs drawn up over the next 3 years that pretend, they might, possibly, could, launch a new design in a few years. Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic errrr......737MAX.....comes to mind.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:20 am

Did anyone actually listen to what he said?

He pretty much just said "Our NMA cleansheet design is coming"

Not once did he say that they are restarting the design with a second cleansheet. Not a single word can cause anyone to think they are changing it to a 737 replacement.

This forum is ridiculous with the whole "Boeing can't close the business case" thing.

A positive business case was made a couple years ago, the design is now nearly complete, engines have already gone out for tender. It is so obvious that the reason for the slight delay of the launch is because the 737 is grounded. That would be a PR disaster.

Boeing has nearly always launched a new aircraft 5 years before the PLANNED service date. With the proposed 2025 service date that has been mentioned that means the 797 should launch in 2019 or 2020. 2019 was ruled out due to the 737 grounding so expect a launch shortly after the 737 is back on. The air.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1916
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:23 am

IADCA wrote:
Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That plane exists. It's the A320 series. You're basically asking them to build a better A320 than the A320 - which is fine and laudable, but by the time you got it in the air, Airbus would be planning for the future, as well as having whatever incremental improvements already baked into the 320N series.

hOMSaR wrote:
Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That’s at least two types, if not three. You’d need different fuselages and different wings if you wanted to be efficient at the 100-seat level and the 220-seat level.


Exactly. A good A318 and 319 mean a bad A321, and vice versa.


So you're saying Boeing should just give up and cede the market to Airbus because they'll never be able to out-engineer them?
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 829
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That plane exists. It's the A320 series. You're basically asking them to build a better A320 than the A320 - which is fine and laudable, but by the time you got it in the air, Airbus would be planning for the future, as well as having whatever incremental improvements already baked into the 320N series.

hOMSaR wrote:

That’s at least two types, if not three. You’d need different fuselages and different wings if you wanted to be efficient at the 100-seat level and the 220-seat level.


Exactly. A good A318 and 319 mean a bad A321, and vice versa.


So you're saying Boeing should just give up and cede the market to Airbus because they'll never be able to out-engineer them?


Either that or it's still 1987 and we don't realize it.

Does this mean innovation really DID peak at that time? :stirthepot:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
IADCA
Posts: 2068
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:52 am

1989worstyear wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
IADCA wrote:

That plane exists. It's the A320 series. You're basically asking them to build a better A320 than the A320 - which is fine and laudable, but by the time you got it in the air, Airbus would be planning for the future, as well as having whatever incremental improvements already baked into the 320N series.



Exactly. A good A318 and 319 mean a bad A321, and vice versa.


So you're saying Boeing should just give up and cede the market to Airbus because they'll never be able to out-engineer them?


Either that or it's still 1987 and we don't realize it.

Does this mean innovation really DID peak at that time? :stirthepot:


If you're going to troll, please try to make it clever or funny at least some of the time. Repeating the exact same shtick over and over bores even people like me who find the occasional troll funny.


TTailedTiger wrote:
IADCA wrote:
Antaras wrote:
What about a clean-sheet design with different variants from the size of a A220-100 to a A321 (or even a 757-3)


That plane exists. It's the A320 series. You're basically asking them to build a better A320 than the A320 - which is fine and laudable, but by the time you got it in the air, Airbus would be planning for the future, as well as having whatever incremental improvements already baked into the 320N series.

hOMSaR wrote:

That’s at least two types, if not three. You’d need different fuselages and different wings if you wanted to be efficient at the 100-seat level and the 220-seat level.


Exactly. A good A318 and 319 mean a bad A321, and vice versa.


So you're saying Boeing should just give up and cede the market to Airbus because they'll never be able to out-engineer them?


No. But considering that your only contributions to these forums appear to be putting words in people's mouths and reflexively backing Boeing (both of which you managed to do quite nicely in a single sentence), I'm afraid I would rather not engage in any further discussion with you. You may also want to read my response to the 1989 weirdo above.
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