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TObound
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:28 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Not necessarily, the question is:
Is it better to have an

18.5 " width seat @ 30" pitch? (7-ab.)

17 " witdh seat @ 32" pitch? (8-ab.)

Personally I prefer the second solution (8-abreast) not necessarly discomfort

It densifies the cabin and gives an additional 2 " pitch.

This can be ideal for flights from 1h to 6h. mission...

Regds


What airline today gives you 32" in economy on their new or retrofitted airplanes today? The likely outcome is 17" wide seat and 30" pitch. 31" pitch if it's a generous carrier.


What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...


A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch for aircraft they've not replaced or refurbished. But most mainline carriers seem to have this habit of coming out of refurb or taking delivery of new aircraft with 30-31" pitch. The carriers launching a brand new MAX or 787 with 32" pitch as standard in Y are more exception than the rule. And they most certainly don't add pitch to their Boeing airplanes to make up for the narrower seats. Pitch is always exactly the same between their Boeing and Airbus products.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:30 pm

TObound wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TObound wrote:

What airline today gives you 32" in economy on their new or retrofitted airplanes today? The likely outcome is 17" wide seat and 30" pitch. 31" pitch if it's a generous carrier.

Exactly. Just like the 7ab becomes 8ab (or 8 to 9 on A330, 9 to 10 on 777), 32" pitch becomes 30" on the next interior redo...


I learned my lesson watching AC here in Canada. Their 777s went from 3-3-3 to 3-4-3. And at the same time they made that change, they introduced the Premium Economy section and reduced pitch in Y to 31" on most rows (there's rows with less). Their Dreamliner simply launched with 3-3-3 and the lower pitch in Y to begin with. After that experience, I have zero excitement at the thought of flying a Boeing product. Unfortunately for us Canadians, our two major airlines are both MAX operators.

Given that AC will also be flying the CSeries/A220, I look forward to them starting to get a earful from their regular/high value customers. Nothing will drive home the point of how much 17" seats suck like transferring between a 223 and MAX. The contrast will be particularly hilarious when they transfer from a 220 to a 787 or 777 and note that the widebody is somehow less comfortable.

30" pitch is all but standard now domestically in many parts of the world. 31 if particularly generous. This is why width is so damn valuable. It's something airlines can't really mess with unless they want to redefine their business into ULCCs.


That's it, I understand your dismay.

As if by chance during my research on Seatguru site web.
I went to see AC 777-300ER indeed it is not a gift. It's a 10-abreast / 17 "seat @ 30" pitch! Very poor comfort!

But this is not the case for everyone.

China western 777-300ER / 10-abreast @ 32-33 "pitch! Excellent comfort!

Air France 32" good comfort, and KLM 31 " a bit just comfort

Otherwise you have SkyJet in Canada, their Dreamliner is rather charming, they are at 31" pitch but hey it's a bit just anyway. 787-9/ 9-abreast @ 31" pitch

https://youtu.be/TJaNoqYagcw
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1763
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:37 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Not necessarily, the question is:
Is it better to have an

18.5 " width seat @ 30" pitch? (7-ab.)

17 " witdh seat @ 32" pitch? (8-ab.)

Personally I prefer the second solution (8-abreast) not necessarly discomfort

It densifies the cabin and gives an additional 2 " pitch.

This can be ideal for flights from 1h to 6h. mission...

Regds


What airline today gives you 32" in economy on their new or retrofitted airplanes today? The likely outcome is 17" wide seat and 30" pitch. 31" pitch if it's a generous carrier.


What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...

It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1085
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:38 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:

Getting a new clean sheet certified has become nearly impossible, look at MRJ with the Spacejet, it has had delays approaching a decade.



Ummmm.... BBD CS? A 350? B 787? Sukhoi S100?
 
TObound
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
TObound wrote:

What airline today gives you 32" in economy on their new or retrofitted airplanes today? The likely outcome is 17" wide seat and 30" pitch. 31" pitch if it's a generous carrier.


What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...

It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.


More to the point 32" seems to mostly exist on older aircraft. It's less and less likely on new or refurbished aircraft. Even in the US.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1763
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:52 pm

TObound wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...

It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.


More to the point 32" seems to mostly exist on older aircraft. It's less and less likely on new or refurbished aircraft. Even in the US.

And, actually, in the US and a lot of modern countries, seat width (and shoulder space) is of more value due to the "widening" of the general population, and of the population in general.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3587
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:54 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Probably because the any 7W will actually be designed to cram 8W and will consequently be flown 8W by airlines. Add slimline seating and there you go; Widebody discomfort at narrowbody economics.


Not necessarily, the question is:
Is it better to have an

18.5 " width seat @ 30" pitch? (7-ab.)

17 " witdh seat @ 32" pitch? (8-ab.)

Personally I prefer the second solution (8-abreast) not necessarly discomfort

It densifies the cabin and gives an additional 2 " pitch.

This can be ideal for flights from 1h to 6h. mission...

Regds


Or 6abreast with a single aisle and then if you have more pax needed you increase the frequency...

Checklist787 wrote:

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?



You tell us, you’re the expert.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:57 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
TObound wrote:

What airline today gives you 32" in economy on their new or retrofitted airplanes today? The likely outcome is 17" wide seat and 30" pitch. 31" pitch if it's a generous carrier.


What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...

It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.


Airlines are fearful of competition. Passengers are considered to be itinerant goods.

I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
https://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/44252939/wild-pitch-us-airlines-with-the-most-legroom-in-economy-and-the-least/ gives an interesting run down of US airlines.

Good. Thanks!
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
WIederling
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:21 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Even Boeing stopped talking about widebody comfort at narrowbody economics. So I would not bet on that to happen.


Has anyone got an idea how much the NMA would cost to produce and how much it will sell for?


(Mjuch) higher cost to what can be asked for it.
Otherwise Boeing would have long been in full gear setting up production for NMA, MOM or whatnot.

Going on what is available as information Boeing doesn't even have a clear picture about what to offer to start with.

A321 LR then XLR have contracted the horizon for Boeing.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Fable
Murphy is an optimist
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1763
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:29 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

What do you mean ?

Are you telling us that this is not possible à 32 "pitch?

Shall we still enter into an endless debate?

A lot of airlines are at 32" pitch...

It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.


Airlines are fearful of competition. Passengers are considered to be itinerant goods.

I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...

Well, welcome to the real world...

It might sound absurd to you, but it is happening in real life.

Who, in their right mind, would stuff 440 passengers in an A330??? Well, Lion Air has in their A330-300s, and AirAsia X will in their A330-900.
Ain't it absurd? Heck yeah!!! Is it the reality as well? You betcha.
 
TObound
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:30 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...


Now you're finally starting to understand why some of us detest Boeing enabling 17" seats for the carriers. With the exception of Delta and say premium carriers like JetBlue, most of the North American and European legacy carriers are standardizing around 31" seat pitch. Heck, American Airlines was pushing 29" seat pitch with its Project Oasis refurbishment project at one point. Passengers complained. And so they became generous and settled on 30" seat pitch. Look at Europe where 30" or less is basically becoming standard in mainline across mainline legacy carriers. Air France is saying they'll have 149 seats on their 223. For comparison, Air Baltic has 145 seats in all Y with 30" pitch. This means AF's Y will be 29" most likely. The are great articles out there on airline seats shrinking.

People love to cite the Asian carriers. But it's more like they are 20 years behind the US and Europe. Flying is still a luxury for a lot of people in Asia. So you have the relatively luxurious full-service carriers (like SQ and CX) and then you have the LCC/ULCC like Scoot, Air Asia, etc. all with 30" seat pitch or less. What happens as more people start flying in those countries and the LCCs start gaining marketshare, how do you think the mainline carriers will react? I suspect they'll do exactly what the North American and European carriers did.

This is why I value seat width so much. Can a carrier put 16" seats in, like Air Caraibes did on the A350 or the 9ab 330s for Air Transat and Lion Air? Absolutely. But they know that cements their brand as an ULCC and they will not get the higher yielding business traffic once they do that. That is why you'll see lots of carriers with 17" wide seats. You won't see too many with 16" wide seats. There's a lot Doug Parker might do at American. But I doubt he's going to have 9ab 330s. He's more than happy to crush the knees of anybody in Y. Why let him crush your shoulders too?
Last edited by TObound on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Even Boeing stopped talking about widebody comfort at narrowbody economics. So I would not bet on that to happen.


Has anyone got an idea how much the NMA would cost to produce and how much it will sell for?


(Mjuch) higher cost to what can be asked for it.
Otherwise Boeing would have long been in full gear setting up production for NMA, MOM or whatnot.

Going on what is available as information Boeing doesn't even have a clear picture about what to offer to start with.

A321 LR then XLR have contracted the horizon for Boeing.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Fable


Well you seem to ignore that in marketing, when you create a product, you create a demand.

No doubt Boeing knows where to go with the NMA!

Historically, they have always evaluated the market differently than Airbus.

Forcast 2000-2019 period,
1,400 A380s between 2000 and 2019,
never happened.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Fable
Last edited by Checklist787 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:49 pm

TObound wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...


Now you're finally starting to understand why some of us detest Boeing enabling 17" seats for the carriers. With the exception of Delta and say premium carriers like JetBlue, most of the North American and European legacy carriers are standardizing around 31" seat pitch. Heck, American Airlines was pushing 29" seat pitch with its Project Oasis refurbishment project at one point. Passengers complained. And so they became generous and settled on 30" seat pitch. Look at Europe where 30" or less is basically becoming standard in mainline across mainline legacy carriers. Air France is saying they'll have 149 seats on their 223. For comparison, Air Baltic has 145 seats in all Y with 30" pitch. This means AF's Y will be 29" most likely. The are great articles out there on airline seats shrinking.

People love to cite the Asian carriers. But it's more like they are 20 years behind the US and Europe. Flying is still a luxury for a lot of people in Asia. So you have the relatively luxurious full-service carriers (like SQ and CX) and then you have the LCC/ULCC like Scoot, Air Asia, etc. all with 30" seat pitch or less. What happens as more people start flying in those countries and the LCCs start gaining marketshare, how do you think the mainline carriers will react? I suspect they'll do exactly what the North American and European carriers did.

This is why I value seat width so much. Can a carrier put 16" seats in, like Air Caraibes did on the A350 or the 9ab 330s for Air Transat and Lion Air? Absolutely. But they know that cements their brand as an ULCC and they will not get the higher yielding business traffic once they do that. That is why you'll see lots of carriers with 17" wide seats. You won't see too many with 16" wide seats. There's a lot Doug Parker might do at American. But I doubt he's going to have 9ab 330s. He's more than happy to crush the knees of anybody in Y. Why let him crush your shoulders too?


Yes, but I don't see why Boeing is the cause.

Even an 18 "seat will not give you more leg space. It do not miracle. IMHO

However, thanks for the sources
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:58 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
It's not an endless debate, it's the reality; same reality that saw airlines add one seat per row and make narrow seats.

Quick search shows these airlines with 31" pitch or less (per seatguru.com):
- AA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab...), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- DL on 767, 777 (albeit at 9 ab);
- UA on 767, 777 (coupled with 10 ab), 787-10 (coupled with 9 ab, 787-8 & -9 is currently at 32" pitch at 9 ab);
- QF on 747 and A380;
- AF on 787 (coupled with 9 ab) and A330 (albeit at 8 ab);
- BA on 777 (albeit at 9 ab), 787 (coupled with 9 ab);
- etc...
This is a non-exhaustive list, feel free to complete it.

32" pitch does exist; but so does 31", and it's not rare.


Airlines are fearful of competition. Passengers are considered to be itinerant goods.

I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...

Well, welcome to the real world...

It might sound absurd to you, but it is happening in real life.

Who, in their right mind, would stuff 440 passengers in an A330??? Well, Lion Air has in their A330-300s, and AirAsia X will in their A330-900.
Ain't it absurd? Heck yeah!!! Is it the reality as well? You betcha.


You are off topic.

We don't talk about sardin configuration. We talking about 30 " pitch/ 17" - 18" width seat / long haul...
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3587
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:06 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Airlines are fearful of competition. Passengers are considered to be itinerant goods.

I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...

Well, welcome to the real world...

It might sound absurd to you, but it is happening in real life.

Who, in their right mind, would stuff 440 passengers in an A330??? Well, Lion Air has in their A330-300s, and AirAsia X will in their A330-900.
Ain't it absurd? Heck yeah!!! Is it the reality as well? You betcha.


You are off topic.

We don't talk about sardin configuration. We talking about 30 " pitch/ 17" - 18" width seat / long haul...

Long haul? Didn’t you say 1-6hrs?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
TObound
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:42 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...


Now you're finally starting to understand why some of us detest Boeing enabling 17" seats for the carriers. With the exception of Delta and say premium carriers like JetBlue, most of the North American and European legacy carriers are standardizing around 31" seat pitch. Heck, American Airlines was pushing 29" seat pitch with its Project Oasis refurbishment project at one point. Passengers complained. And so they became generous and settled on 30" seat pitch. Look at Europe where 30" or less is basically becoming standard in mainline across mainline legacy carriers. Air France is saying they'll have 149 seats on their 223. For comparison, Air Baltic has 145 seats in all Y with 30" pitch. This means AF's Y will be 29" most likely. The are great articles out there on airline seats shrinking.

People love to cite the Asian carriers. But it's more like they are 20 years behind the US and Europe. Flying is still a luxury for a lot of people in Asia. So you have the relatively luxurious full-service carriers (like SQ and CX) and then you have the LCC/ULCC like Scoot, Air Asia, etc. all with 30" seat pitch or less. What happens as more people start flying in those countries and the LCCs start gaining marketshare, how do you think the mainline carriers will react? I suspect they'll do exactly what the North American and European carriers did.

This is why I value seat width so much. Can a carrier put 16" seats in, like Air Caraibes did on the A350 or the 9ab 330s for Air Transat and Lion Air? Absolutely. But they know that cements their brand as an ULCC and they will not get the higher yielding business traffic once they do that. That is why you'll see lots of carriers with 17" wide seats. You won't see too many with 16" wide seats. There's a lot Doug Parker might do at American. But I doubt he's going to have 9ab 330s. He's more than happy to crush the knees of anybody in Y. Why let him crush your shoulders too?


Yes, but I don't see why Boeing is the cause.


Who do you think enabled 17" seats for mainline carriers?


Checklist787 wrote:
Even an 18 "seat will not give you more leg space.


With a Boeing, my shoulders and knees are getting crushed. With an Airbus it's only my knees getting crushed.

How often do you actually travel? It doesn't sound that frequent.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:45 pm

The 767 being in such high demand is proof that the market for a small widebody is actually very high. If they had more they would be flying them.

The 767 has one of the worst fuel burn per seat of every aircraft in service. Despite this we have 30 year old 767's flying around because they are the smallest aircraft that can fly 5000nm. For Pacific rim and deep transatlantic flights to thin destinations they work well.

If the 767 was up to date and in production with CASM that was slightly close to the 787 or A330NEO it wouod be selling 100+ a year easily.

I still think the small widebody 797 is coming. It will be half way between the A321 and 787 in cabin area, range, CASM and purchase price.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:17 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The 767 being in such high demand is proof that the market for a small widebody is actually very high. If they had more they would be flying them.

The 767 has one of the worst fuel burn per seat of every aircraft in service. Despite this we have 30 year old 767's flying around because they are the smallest aircraft that can fly 5000nm. For Pacific rim and deep transatlantic flights to thin destinations they work well.

If the 767 was up to date and in production with CASM that was slightly close to the 787 or A330NEO it wouod be selling 100+ a year easily.

I still think the small widebody 797 is coming. It will be half way between the A321 and 787 in cabin area, range, CASM and purchase price.


Please explain how the 767 is in "high demand." It's been eight years since the last passenger version was ordered, although a limited number of freighters have been ordered since - and almost undoubtedly, cost played a role in the decision.

Development of a new widebody would cost tens of billions and require massive resources. These costs are then passed into the airframes... which will be priced higher than the 787, 350 or 330NEO, given that their development costs are largely paid off. The market for a 767-sized aircraft is smaller to begin with, and given that technology hasn't made significant advances over the 787/350, the overall appeal of the aircraft will be limited, at best. It's questionable if such program could turn a profit.

It's far more likely that Boeing would invest its resources (money and people) into building a 737 replacement than a 767 replacement. The losses incurred by the 737MAX heavily limit available capital and make a 767 replacement program very unlikely. If anybody expresses significant interest in the program, Boeing would likely offer a re-engineed 767.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:21 am

A hypothetical NMA 757/767 replacement wouldn’t get too much use outside the USA. The NMA is a very US centric aircraft.
 
LFW
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:24 am

From way back on airliners.net, 764 is between 333 and 332 for CASM and this is with a 764 high J seat map
AMS-DTW
Aircraft — Gallons Burned — Gals/Mile — Seat Count — Fuel Burn/ASM — Fuel/ASM % Difference to 333
333 — 15679 — 4.579 — 293 — 0.0156 — Baseline
764 — 13950 — 4.074 — 246 — 0.0165 — +6% (less seats overall, more J)
332 — 13891 — 4.056 — 234 — 0.0173 — +11% (less seats but still competitive for off-peak times)
 
Chemist
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:27 am

Motorhussy wrote:
Given everything that’s going on with the two main aircraft manufacturers - corruption, losses, safety issues etc - which of them is going to be the first to address the middle of the market gap with a new widebody aircraft?

Which has the design and engineering expertise freed up at this point in time and the capital to spend?

And where is the market opportunity, an aircraft that covers the A330-200/767-400 and 767–300/A300 space?

And if so, what’s the likely timeframe? Boeing’s new chief has talked about a clean sheet. Airbus has the market just below it with the A321 family.

Thoughts?


I'm thinking we're seeing the decay of a once great company (Boeing) who is now risk-averse and pinching pennies by recycling old parts. That's not a company that is likely to be bold with a new MOM in the near term (IMHO).
I'm guessing it would be Airbus first.
Boeing could do a 767 re-engine, I doubt they'd call it the 767 MAX at this point....
 
AleksW
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:56 am

Why widebody? Why not simply design a brand new family of A321 / B757 class of aircraft, with cabin size similar to MC-21 (slightly wider than A320) and 2 sets of wings for medium and long haul, covering anything from 180 to 250-260 pax segmet. If A321LR is able to cover 4k+ miles, brand new composite craft will probably do 5k easily.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:00 am

In researching the Dash 80.... I came across the following info. While times have changed substantially, I wonder if Boeing’s engineers and designers can extrapolate any useful information and data points from previous experiences and HISTORY?

- - - -


Dash 80 fuselage was wide enough at 132 inches (3.35 m) for five-abreast seating; two on one side of the aisle and three on the other.

The fuselage diameter for the production KC-135 was widened to 144 inches (3.66 m) and Boeing originally hoped to build the 707 fuselage with that width.

By the time the Boeing company committed to production, the decision had been made to design the production model 707 as a six-abreast design, with a larger 148 inches (3.76 m) diameter fuselage, after C.R. Smith, CEO of American Airlines, told Boeing he wouldn't buy the 707 unless it was an inch wider than the then-proposed Douglas DC-8 passenger jet.

This decision did not unduly delay introduction of the production model since the -80 had been largely hand-built, using little production tooling.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:13 am

In the 787 thread Boeing is reducing production rate in 2021, any one heard any rumours of Boeing offering 787-8's at discounted rates to make up for the NMA gap offering? If the price is right, would airlines use the 787-8 over an A321 on the low end routes?
 
Tokyo777
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:54 am

DocLightning wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
B764er wrote:
What happened with the 787-3?


and retain the flexibility to be able to rotate those frames through long-haul routes.


The domestic birds have a very different configuration than the long-haul ones. They don't "rotate those frames through long-haul routes". ANA has numerous sub-fleets across their 787s and even 777s.
 
TObound
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:13 am

par13del wrote:
In the 787 thread Boeing is reducing production rate in 2021, any one heard any rumours of Boeing offering 787-8's at discounted rates to make up for the NMA gap offering? If the price is right, would airlines use the 787-8 over an A321 on the low end routes?


At approximately similar pax layout and class proportion s, a 788 has 230-240 pax vs. 170-180 on a 321LR with lie-flats. Assuming the city pair is within the range of the LR/XLR and there aren't large cargo demands, the 788 would have to have a price no greater than 40% of the LR/XLR to be viable.

List price of the 788 is ~$240 million. List price for 321NEO is ~$130 million.
.
http://newsinflight.com/2018/01/28/2018 ... -aircraft/

I can't see heavy discounts making the 788 work. And that's before so many other factors. I think we're reaching a point where widebodies will only make sense in specific, albeit broad criteria:

1) Where the range is necessary. Realistically, even with the XLR, routes over 4000nm are likely to stay with widebodies.

2) Where loads demand it. And increasingly this probably means at least enough to fill most of a 300 pax plane. This could be either seasonally or on specific routes.

3) Where cargo demand is sufficient. And has to occur with enough passenger demand to justify the route.

Increasingly, two of three of the above will be a prerequisite for widebody service. For the rest there's the 321XLR and old fashioned connecting routes.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:49 am

One wonders if they do proceed with NMA vs 737 replacement - what they could do to the 737-10 in terms of thrust bump or MTOW increase to get more range out of it.

Could they get to 4,700NM? Of course not but if they could take the -10 from 3,300Nm to say 4,000 NM that could be a nice stop gap with a not a lot of effort.

Is the Rudder big enough? I would guess with the longer length over the -9 that the frame could handle more thrust with sufficient rudder authority remaining.

It could be an interesting upgrade for not a lot of effort.

It would be interesting to see what they could get out of the -8 or -9 with similar changes and the levered gear of the -10.

Basically an ER package for all Models. Somehow I don't think we have seen the last variant or sub-variant of the MAX.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:32 am

Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.
 
Strato2
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:37 am

DenverTed wrote:
Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.


You'd hope so since the A321 presently has a wing from the 80's. This astonishing fact reveals that that if Airbus decides to rewing the A320 series it will have Boeing on the ropes.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:43 am

I'd say the key will be to make it both high tech (materials and aerodynamics and engines of course) but keep it simple enough and cheap enough to build (robots at one FAL place) and sell at the same time. And it must be robust and easy to maintain. This is why a shrink 787 didn't materialize. It must be cheaper, simpler, more next generation compared to the Dreamliner. To get production ready next generation engines in time will be the hardest part.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 am

DenverTed wrote:
Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.


What's wrong with folding wingtips? It's rather ingenious in my opinion. You ger optimal performance in the air while taking up less of a footprint on the ground.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:14 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
This decision did not unduly delay introduction of the production model since the -80 had been largely hand-built, using little production tooling.


Not quite sure about your drift.
Boeing models had a lot of "luck" and "competent customer" factor attached.

Swept wings, engines as shockbodies were a well researched package gift from Germany.
Dash80 was done to avoid getting profits siphoned off for war profiteering.
707 seems to have had strong customer input ( you mentioned it )
747 was the brain child of Juan Trippe.
737 started with a clear vision from Lufthansa.
...
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:16 am

Strato2 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.


You'd hope so since the A321 presently has a wing from the 80's. This astonishing fact reveals that that if Airbus decides to rewing the A320 series it will have Boeing on the ropes.


I really hope Airbus will do just that. At the same time I hope that Boeing will get extra-lot of bashing from all directions. Only then would Boeing realize that they actually have to do something disruptive, nothing lukewarm will save them. Boeing has the capability to do that, if they just choose to get serious. That would mean a really awesome new product family - which in turn would force Airbus to respond with something equally awesome.

The current somewhat stable duopoly is killing innovation, just like monopoly. The airlines are happy with 5-10% better economy - so the manufacturers don't need to do anything more than that.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.


What's wrong with folding wingtips? It's rather ingenious in my opinion. You ger optimal performance in the air while taking up less of a footprint on the ground.



It is only a bit more expensive and heavier than a wingtip device. Two gear motors and replacing bolts with hinge and locking pins. A huge performance gain, I think we will see on most clean sheets in the future.
 
JonesNL
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:12 am

:lol: Every company would kill for a $30 Billion (65 mil a piece) niche. Every annalist out there agrees that the XLR is an bullseye no matter how you cut it. There are quite some products in the Airbus line up that can be bashed, but the XLR is the least contender for that.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:08 am

Carlos01 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Can Boeing design a more capable, lighter wing than the A321 without resorting to folding wingtips? A wing that fits in a 36m gate and lifts 110 to 120t? If it is CFRP, has slightly more area than the A321, split winglets, and 40K GTF engines, perhaps that is another option for a future aircraft.


You'd hope so since the A321 presently has a wing from the 80's. This astonishing fact reveals that that if Airbus decides to rewing the A320 series it will have Boeing on the ropes.


I really hope Airbus will do just that. At the same time I hope that Boeing will get extra-lot of bashing from all directions. Only then would Boeing realize that they actually have to do something disruptive, nothing lukewarm will save them. Boeing has the capability to do that, if they just choose to get serious. That would mean a really awesome new product family - which in turn would force Airbus to respond with something equally awesome.

The current somewhat stable duopoly is killing innovation, just like monopoly. The airlines are happy with 5-10% better economy - so the manufacturers don't need to do anything more than that.


Unless this hope is not justified. Currently the 737MAX has a smaller, lighter wing than the A320neo.

With the MAX10 from below and the NMA-6 and NMA-7 the A321neo will be contained. Boeing is very serious about this.
This is why, he is certainly preparing something very soon ...
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:49 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Unless this hope is not justified. Currently the 737MAX has a smaller, lighter wing than the A320neo.

737max wing area 127m^2
A321 wing area 122.4m^2
Checklist787 wrote:
With the MAX10 from below

Why below? Lower range? Lower Payload? The A320 is also these things....
Checklist787 wrote:
and the NMA-6 and NMA-7

What are the NMA-6 and NMA-7, I had asked this upthread and got no response, my take on this is that it is like the god of maximal capability. If you can simply say that Boeing can do it I'll tell you that Airbus will just make the wings of the XLR out of unobtanium...
Checklist787 wrote:
the A321neo will be contained.

Cool Story...
Checklist787 wrote:
Boeing is very serious about this.

Serious enough to have not done anything about it yet,
Image
Checklist787 wrote:

This is why, he is certainly preparing something very soon ...

Opinion? Evidence? Or shall I report the post for rule 1.e?

Have a nice day!

Fred
Image
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:57 am

The business case for a widebody MOM aircraft just isn't there. A new clean sheet narrowbody will always be more efficient.
Good moaning!
 
TObound
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:51 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
The business case for a widebody MOM aircraft just isn't there. A new clean sheet narrowbody will always be more efficient.


I have no doubts a widebody NMA would sell. But Boeing would probably have the 787 down to rate 6 and with lower margins as carriers take up the cheaper widebody. It's why the business case is "hard to close".
 
Amiga500
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:06 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
The business case for a widebody MOM aircraft just isn't there. A new clean sheet narrowbody will always be more efficient.


It never was there.

Only the clapping seals thought 7AB with a magic fuselage was realistic.

There was a bit more rationality to a shorter range 8AB, but that completely ignored the costs sunk into the 787 and the inflexibility of the 8AB vis-a-vis the A321.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:14 pm

Boeing could just do again what they successfully did with the 757 and 767 when they had to replace the 727 and 720. This time in CFRP.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:37 pm

Noshow wrote:
Boeing could just do again what they successfully did with the 757 and 767 when they had to replace the 727 and 720. This time in CFRP.


This only worked back then because Boeing was able to deliver the same capability and capacity with twin jets compared to the tri-jets and quads they replaced.

The MoM as all here state does not really exist or not in the voluminous form everyone claims it does. The 757 is already replaced: A321neo and A321XLR take on this role. The 767 does not leave a big enough gap to be replaced with a new designed aircraft. The 757 got replaced by an continuously increased performance of the A321 and every replacement of the 767 reduces the sales of the 787 and this is just not great for the business of Boeing especially as there are still deferred production costs to "pay" off. If the 787 would be from the early 90s, then replacing its lower end sales with a new small twin aisle would be a nobrainer but in the current time the 787 needs every sale possible and a product that reduces the sale potential of the 787 would lead to a massive reduction in profits and no share holder would want this and neither does the board of Boeing.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:42 pm

There must be a learning curve with the 787. So some next generation CFRP-aircraft must be cheaper to build and sell. Boeing can't leave this market segment to Airbus.
 
WIederling
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:46 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The business case for a widebody MOM aircraft just isn't there. A new clean sheet narrowbody will always be more efficient.


It never was there.


Airlines would gladly take a MOM that:
* sits above the NB capacity and range wise
* provides its capabilities at cost that is an extension of the NB line.
* can be bought for a slight markup against current NB premium frames ( i.e A321NEO* )

this founders on:
* single aisle cross sections being maxed out
* twin aisle designs sitting at the lower range of what makes an efficient airframe.
* the humongous cost associated with a clean sheet design that is denied access to
the prime WB solutionspace, it needs to jump through hoops to no end.
* producing this at cost competitive to established NB lines.
Murphy is an optimist
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:48 pm

Noshow wrote:
There must be a learning curve with the 787. So some next generation CFRP-aircraft must be cheaper to build and sell. Boeing can't leave this market segment to Airbus.


Exactly and this kills off the 787s business case. The same goes for Airbus, a capable 767 replacement would kill off the A330 and Airbus does not want this (right now). So a small wide body aircraft is far away.

I guess the chance for a launch of such an aircraft by A or B is lower than 25% in the coming years but will slowly increase as around 2030-35 the 787 and the A330 need a replacement/upgrade. So we will most probably see a new and smaller twin aisle launch in the area of 2026-2028.

Chances are that both manufacturer will launch a similar frame as the 787 will grow in capability (and kill off the 777), while the A330 needs a replacement that is a bit less capable in range and capacity to leave a lot of space for the A350neo.

Boeing will most probably launch a new single aisle earlier to compete head on with the A320/A321neos as the market is big enough for 2 players in this segment.
 
moa999
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
* can be bought for a slight markup against current NB premium frames ( i.e A321NEO* ).


That's the biggest issue
 
pasen
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:00 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
With the MAX10 from below and the NMA-6 and NMA-7 the A321neo will be contained. Boeing is very serious about this.
This is why, he is certainly preparing something very soon ...

Ah yes, the famous "the NMA is coming very soon" prediction from the Boeing fan boys. You guys have been saying this for at least three years now.

Did you read the title of this thread? If Boeing goes back to the drawing board, it is most likely going to take at least another two years until this mystical NMA is launched (if) and then several years to build, certify, deliver, and ramp up production. Realistically, there won't be many of them flying before the end of the decade. That leaves the A321LR/XLR with no real competition for a quite some time and allows Airbus to sell a reasonable number with good profits while they can just comfortably wait and see what Boeing comes up with.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing CEO: NMA will "start with a clean sheet of paper again"

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:05 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Airlines are fearful of competition. Passengers are considered to be itinerant goods.

I find it absurd that an airline offers a seat not only a 17 "or 18" seat, but also a 30 " pitch for long haul

Even if there is a very small difference between 17" vs 18 ", it is absurd not to give at least + 1 " pitch for the 17" seats ...

Well, welcome to the real world...

It might sound absurd to you, but it is happening in real life.

Who, in their right mind, would stuff 440 passengers in an A330??? Well, Lion Air has in their A330-300s, and AirAsia X will in their A330-900.
Ain't it absurd? Heck yeah!!! Is it the reality as well? You betcha.


You are off topic.

We don't talk about sardin configuration. We talking about 30 " pitch/ 17" - 18" width seat / long haul...

I am "off topic" in your opinion because it doesn't fit your narrative.
It is absurd for airlines to offer a narrow seat with low pitch on long haul; but it is happening.

I've already made a list of airlines "offering" 31-or-less inches of legroom on long haul economy; but feel free to ignore all the facts just to make your point.
 
Amiga500
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Re: New middle of the market widebody.

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:11 pm

WIederling wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
The business case for a widebody MOM aircraft just isn't there. A new clean sheet narrowbody will always be more efficient.


It never was there.


Airlines would gladly take a MOM that:
* sits above the NB capacity and range wise
* provides its capabilities at cost that is an extension of the NB line.


Its more than that.

There is a problem in providing an airframe that will perform as well at 1000 nm as it will at 4000 nm.
In providing an airframe that can seamlessly switch in and out of the wider network, pilots, spares etc.

Airlines don't want a fleet of 10 aircraft of unique type to fill a niche role when they can buy 15 more A321*s to add to their fleet, specify the XLR* type and then take a punt on a few more routes. If those routes don't work then roll those 5 extra A321XLRs* back into their standard network.

*For Boeing, it'd be 797-500 (for A321-equivalent), 797-500ER (for A321XLR-equivalent), 797-300 (737-9 equivalent and 797-100 (787-8 equivalent)

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