Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10715
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:59 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
Brandon757 wrote:
And? I just saying with this being an American made aircraft it would have been nice to see at least one US airline supported on there.


I commented yesterday that all of the aircraft seen either side of the 777X before it taxied out showed not a single US Airline paint scheme. I think there was one US military-gray aircraft among the bunch.


That’s because all the 787 that are rolling off the line for AA and UA are in CHS and the UA 777-300s that rolled off the line this year were already delivered. Also all the US MAX aircraft are stored elsewhere.

Simple probability dictates that there is a high chance of no wide bodies belonging to US airlines out on the flight line. There are far more foreign airlines out there than US ones.
 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:59 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
Brandon757 wrote:
And? I just saying with this being an American made aircraft it would have been nice to see at least one US airline supported on there.


I commented yesterday that all of the aircraft seen either side of the 777X before it taxied out showed not a single US Airline paint scheme. I think there was one US military-gray aircraft among the bunch.


That’s because all the 787 that are rolling off the line for AA and UA are in CHS and the UA 777-300s that rolled off the line this year were already delivered. Also all the US MAX aircraft are stored elsewhere.


Ahh. Good reasons all. Thank you.
“Pedantic” defined: spelling “pedantic” “pædantic”.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:03 pm

ABEguy wrote:
One can’t help but wonder what new system Boeing secretly installed to compensate for new wings’ aerodynamic tendencies. Got to keep the same type rating right?


matching behavior with FBW is probably not that much of an effort.
But matching an older "distinct" personality should be more difficult
than matching to a sane abstract airplane model.
Murphy is an optimist
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:13 pm

Now that the girl flies, I wonder if Boeing will eventually dump the "X" suffix, which is usually employed to name experimental programs and concept planes (7X7, A3XX, 747X, etc.).

Or will they keep it as a fancy marketing trademark like Airbus did with the XWB term?
 
astuteman
Posts: 7153
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:23 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
One can’t help but wonder what new system Boeing secretly installed to compensate for new wings’ aerodynamic tendencies. Got to keep the same type rating right?

Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...


Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 11134
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:24 pm

First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27231
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:53 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
That's interesting. I thought they would have to certify the plane for wingtip folded up flight as well.


If the design is such that the wingtip cannot be in the folded-up position in flight, then it would not need to be certified for such a situation.

Without seeing the actual blueprints, I am going to assume that the locking mechanism is such that flight aerodynamic loads cannot cause it to come unlocked and fold upward. The likely "fail" condition is a load so high it sheers them clean off.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:57 pm

astuteman wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
ABEguy wrote:
One can’t help but wonder what new system Boeing secretly installed to compensate for new wings’ aerodynamic tendencies. Got to keep the same type rating right?

Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...


Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:02 pm

Brandon757 wrote:
It was sad when they showed all the tail decals on the plane for all the current customers and not one was a US airline.

It was a long time before any US airline ordered the 77W, and then it was only when Boeing offered special “end of the line” deals. And none ordered either the A380 or the 748, either. They have found that they actually make more money with smaller aircraft. With the 787 and the A350 available offering excellent economics it would not surprise me if they never do order it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:25 pm

Stitch wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
That's interesting. I thought they would have to certify the plane for wingtip folded up flight as well.


If the design is such that the wingtip cannot be in the folded-up position in flight, then it would not need to be certified for such a situation.

Without seeing the actual blueprints, I am going to assume that the locking mechanism is such that flight aerodynamic loads cannot cause it to come unlocked and fold upward. The likely "fail" condition is a load so high it sheers them clean off.

Making the locking mechanism so that the wingtips cannot be folded in flight is a piece of cake. If they cannot be folded in flight and the plane cannot exceed 60kts. with them folded there is no conceivable way that the plane could be flying with them folded.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:29 pm

What could possibly be the catastrophic failure caused by the wingtips folding up in flight? Would they cause a loss of control by somehow disrupting the airflow? I can't imagine there's enough lift generated by the wingtips for that to be the issue.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7153
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:41 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...


Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9


Just so I'm certain - the 777-X has better lift than an A380 because it has a 73m wingspan....?
And because of the engine thrust?

Fair enough. I can get behind that :thumbsup: :)

Rgds
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20278
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:37 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...


Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9

To compare

Plane Wing_aspect_ratio Wing_loading (kg/m^2)
777x 9.96 680
A380 7.53 680 kg/m^2
A35K 9.03 680
A359 9.49 633
787-9/10 9.59 673
77W 9.04 795
A330NEO 8.8 540
A333 10.06 698

As increased aspect ratio allows better underside laminar flow as well as the calculated efficiency from wingtip vortices.

The A330NEO extended wing is an interesting compromise. Heavy, but good numbers, except the great aspect ratio of the A333 was intentionally thrown away for wing area. A mid-length mission compromise.

The A359 has low wing loading and good aspect ratio, but not as good as 787 or 777x.

The 787 is extreamely competitive, but the A359 is slightly better at the extreames of payload/range.

The 777x has great aspect ratio. It should be a little more efficient. But wing loading is only in family with modern Aircraft.

The A380 has a stubby wing. For prior generation Aircraft, great wing loading, but efficiency reduced due to the stubby wing and lack of modern wingtip treatement.

So between advancement of underside laminar flow and improved aspect ratio, the 777x should have better L/D.


What will matter is the GE9x. The engine is a full generation ahead of TrentXWB: (data from Wikipedia):
1. CMC inlet vanes (fixed) to high turbine
2. Variable turnine cooling (developed for LEAP)
3. More turbine clearance control circuits (more efficient turbines). Tightest control loops for thermal control I've yet seen.
4. Pressure ratio 60:1 vs. Txwb"s 50:1
5. Slightly improved bypass ratio: 10:1 vs. Tcwb's 9.6:1.

Put into perspective, the vaunted GE-90-115 has a pressure ratio of 42:1 and bypass ratio of 9:1. The A380 Trents pressure ratio 39:1, bypass ratio 8.7. The high internal friction of 4 engines vs. 2 engines rears its ugly head.

So the wing is a little better than the A350 or 787, far better than the A380. It will be engines and subsystems that determine the most competitive designs and the 777x is a nice technological leap forward over the 777-300ER. We all know how the A380 vs. 77W competition went.

In reality, the 779 is very dependent upon the engines. I believe they will deliver. The wing improvement was the minimum to motivate GE to develop this engine. As the larger the engine, the better the ratio of flow area to surface area (less friction losses per unit of thrust).

I believe the 779 and, in the future a 777F, will do very well. Congrats on 1st flight.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
uta999
Posts: 927
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:38 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
What could possibly be the catastrophic failure caused by the wingtips folding up in flight? Would they cause a loss of control by somehow disrupting the airflow? I can't imagine there's enough lift generated by the wingtips for that to be the issue.


The effect of one wingtip folding would be far worse than both. Would it still be controllable or is that what they mean by catastrophic?
Your computer just got better
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:39 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...


Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9

Happy Families anyone?

I counter with 88 meters ( An-225 Mriya )
engines? I have six!

Now the engines actually do have less thrust than the 77W sports.
More than floated in the beginning but still less: 105,000lbs thrust.

Does anybody know the TOW from Saturday's FF ? 200.. 220t ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:45 pm

I always enjoy your technical input.....

lightsaber wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9

To compare

Plane Wing_aspect_ratio Wing_loading (kg/m^2)
777x 9.96 680
A380 7.53 680 kg/m^2
A35K 9.03 680
A359 9.49 633
787-9/10 9.59 673
77W 9.04 795
A330NEO 8.8 540
A333 10.06 698

As increased aspect ratio allows better underside laminar flow as well as the calculated efficiency from wingtip vortices.

The A330NEO extended wing is an interesting compromise. Heavy, but good numbers, except the great aspect ratio of the A333 was intentionally thrown away for wing area. A mid-length mission compromise.

The A359 has low wing loading and good aspect ratio, but not as good as 787 or 777x.

The 787 is extreamely competitive, but the A359 is slightly better at the extreames of payload/range.

The 777x has great aspect ratio. It should be a little more efficient. But wing loading is only in family with modern Aircraft.

The A380 has a stubby wing. For prior generation Aircraft, great wing loading, but efficiency reduced due to the stubby wing and lack of modern wingtip treatement.

So between advancement of underside laminar flow and improved aspect ratio, the 777x should have better L/D.


What will matter is the GE9x. The engine is a full generation ahead of TrentXWB: (data from Wikipedia):
1. CMC inlet vanes (fixed) to high turbine
2. Variable turnine cooling (developed for LEAP)
3. More turbine clearance control circuits (more efficient turbines). Tightest control loops for thermal control I've yet seen.
4. Pressure ratio 60:1 vs. Txwb"s 50:1
5. Slightly improved bypass ratio: 10:1 vs. Tcwb's 9.6:1.

Put into perspective, the vaunted GE-90-115 has a pressure ratio of 42:1 and bypass ratio of 9:1. The A380 Trents pressure ratio 39:1, bypass ratio 8.7. The high internal friction of 4 engines vs. 2 engines rears its ugly head.

So the wing is a little better than the A350 or 787, far better than the A380. It will be engines and subsystems that determine the most competitive designs and the 777x is a nice technological leap forward over the 777-300ER. We all know how the A380 vs. 77W competition went.

In reality, the 779 is very dependent upon the engines. I believe they will deliver. The wing improvement was the minimum to motivate GE to develop this engine. As the larger the engine, the better the ratio of flow area to surface area (less friction losses per unit of thrust).

I believe the 779 and, in the future a 777F, will do very well. Congrats on 1st flight.

Lightsaber
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3651
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:17 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
Nothing to add except the wing itself. The 777-X has better lift than any other existing Aircraft...

Better lift? What makes it better?

Fred



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3651
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:35 pm

qf789 wrote:
First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/

Looks nice, the proportions look ‘right’ in flight if a little front heavy.

Did they retract they gear at all in the flight? I knew historically it was never done on first flight for risk reasons but this seemed not to be the case now (787/A350/A380). Certainly looking forward to more air to air shots.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24604
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:35 am

qf789 wrote:
First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/

Thanks, stunning indeed.

The fact that the aerial shots were with gear down supports the idea that the entire flight was done gear down.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:06 am

If you squint a little, you can imagine the burning rubber as she accelerate on takeoff :wink2:

Revelation wrote:
The fact that the aerial shots were with gear down supports the idea that the entire flight was done gear down.


I'd wait until they release the photo as it flew around Mt. Rainier (the loop south of Seattle as they headed back). The clouds were breaking a little during that time in the area. :crossfingers:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:19 am

Karlsands wrote:
Terrier79 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Takeoff +Landing video (2 in 1)

https://youtu.be/rNyJbdv2KF4


During takeoff, it looks like the front pair of wheels of the main landing gear lifts off the ground before the pilot pulls up the nose.

I find that a weird observation and am interested in your thoughts on it.

It looks as if as stated above with the aircraft being at a minimal weight it entered ground effect quite quickly and simply wanted to fly , the pilots had to hold her off a little longer until the proper Vr speed I would assume .


Sorry, quoted wrong post.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2353
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9

To compare

Plane Wing_aspect_ratio Wing_loading (kg/m^2)
777x 9.96 680
A380 7.53 680 kg/m^2
A35K 9.03 680
A359 9.49 633
787-9/10 9.59 673
77W 9.04 795
A330NEO 8.8 540
A333 10.06 698

As increased aspect ratio allows better underside laminar flow as well as the calculated efficiency from wingtip vortices.

The A330NEO extended wing is an interesting compromise. Heavy, but good numbers, except the great aspect ratio of the A333 was intentionally thrown away for wing area. A mid-length mission compromise.

I did some digging on that 339 number, looks like it's an incorrect measurement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Airb ... _are_wrong

The wing is the same minus the new sharklet, so if you take the 361 m2 of the 333 and round up to 370, that gives an AR of 11.07. The problem for the neo remains the thicker wing, which the newer designs presumably don't have.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:24 am

astuteman wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
astuteman wrote:

Interesting comment. What evidence makes you say that?

I'd sort of hope that the 575 tonne A380 has better lift …..

Rgds


The 73 meters / 238 ft 10 in wingspan
and the behavior of the aircraft is sufficient evidence...

And that the engines have a 115,000lbs thrust like the 777-300ER is another evidence while the aircraft is 3 meters longer for the Triple-7-9


Just so I'm certain - the 777-X has better lift than an A380 because it has a 73m wingspan....?
And because of the engine thrust?

Fair enough. I can get behind that :thumbsup: :)

Rgds


In detail, the 777-X also has an all-CFRP wing against a partial-CFRP if not CFRP for the A380 if my memory serves.

And then add a differential of 15 years of aerodynamics and recent technology against the A380, quite naturally.

Add the weight of 4-engines, the main 4-landing gear against 2 for the 777-X.

This is what has made the intrasic qualities of the Triple-7 for 25 years. A mass transport with a sleek and clean design and which has set new standards and received winning awards.

Finally this does not exclude the good work of Airbus on the A380 ...

Regds :)
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:27 am

LH707330 wrote:
The wing is the same minus the new sharklet, so if you take the 361 m2 of the 333 and round up to 370, that gives an AR of 11.07. The problem for the neo remains the thicker wing, which the newer designs presumably don't have.


Look at the A350XWB vs 787. Attachment area on the wingbox is significantly larger on the A350

IMU an Airbus feature. If you get the aero right ( they seem to have ) the thicker wing is significantly lighter but stiffer.
787 wing is heavy. 777X wing is said to be a scaled 787 wing : extra heavy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:31 am

Checklist787 wrote:
In detail, the 777-X also has an all-CFRP wing against a partial-CFRP if not CFRP for the A380 if my memory serves.


A380 wing loadbearing structure is AL. The wing skins are multilayer laminated Al.
A380 was dimensioned for near twice the MTOW that the 777(X) sports.
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:42 am

WIederling wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
In detail, the 777-X also has an all-CFRP wing against a partial-CFRP if not CFRP for the A380 if my memory serves.


A380 wing loadbearing structure is AL. The wing skins are multilayer laminated Al.
A380 was dimensioned for near twice the MTOW that the 777(X) sports.

:checkmark:

WIederling wrote:
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

What's "a (good) linear scaled" ?
I'm afraid than everybody not understand "technical words" and me in first!

WIederling wrote:
You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.


I still understand this less. Can you be a little more explicit please...
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 am

Revelation wrote:
Jeremy DL @ Twitter ( https://twitter.com/photoJDL/status/1221271901378469896 ) seems to have a photo that captures the moment of interest

Jeremy DL wrote:
Looking at the photos in detail tonight, both main gear started tiptoeing off the runway before the nose did - though the nose was the first full set of gear to clear the ground:


Image

That’s an amazing picture so thanks for posting it. An aircraft that decided to take off even before its pilot decided to do so. Awesome. I guess she was annoyed that she wasn’t allowed to fly the day before and was impatient like a small child.
 
User avatar
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3649
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:52 am

WesternDC6B wrote:
Brandon757 wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:

So? AA, DL and UA are the only US carriers that would conceivably order the 777X and all of them got orders in for the previous generation during the last decade. They aren't going to rush a new widebody purchase, and from Boeing's standpoint, entering the market with orders from international heavy-hitters like EK and LH isn't a bad place to start.

And? I just saying with this being an American made aircraft it would have been nice to see at least one US airline supported on there.


I commented yesterday that all of the aircraft seen either side of the 777X before it taxied out showed not a single US Airline paint scheme. I think there was one US military-gray aircraft among the bunch.


Not really sure why the lack of U.S. paint schemes would be remarkable in Everett. Two of the five largest carriers don't fly widebodies at all, one hasn't ordered the 787 and the other two are pretty close to filling out their order book between the 777/787 programs. There aren't that many major players in the U.S. I don't really think you'd see a marked difference in American flags on the PAE ramp if CO, NW and US were still around.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:09 am

For the first time, A View inside the cockpit and through the window you can see the huge CFRP wing and the huge GE9X engine !

A video put on the Boeing 777-X micro website

"777-X video gallery"
"First flight hilights video"

Enjoy...

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/777x/first-flight
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2254
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:51 am

Revelation wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
What will happen if they fold the wing tips during flight?

Relevant FAA regs ( https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips ) say:

The wingtips must have means to safeguard against unlocking from the extended, flight-deployed position in flight, as a result of failures, including the failure of any single structural element.

because:

Boeing has determined that a catastrophic event could occur if the Model 777-8 and 777-9 airplane wingtips are not properly positioned and secured for takeoff and during flight.


It looks like there are 3 hinges each with a pair of bearings and lock pins. Probably a gearmotor driving a worm gear which are self braking at any position and also compact to fit within the wing. Not a significant amount of weight compared to a bolt on tip, basically the 3 gearmotors and some controls.

This wingtip design could easily move into other models at this length. But it seems appropriate for this folding part be no more than 20% of the total, as both fuel and control surfaces are not in this portion.
 
Boeingphan
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
qf789 wrote:
First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/

Thanks, stunning indeed.

The fact that the aerial shots were with gear down supports the idea that the entire flight was done gear down.


When I was tracking the flight log it never got higher than 14,900ft and 309mph was max speed which tells me it was most likely left down for the duration of the 1st flight.
 
Opus99
Posts: 1091
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:46 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
Revelation wrote:
qf789 wrote:
First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/

Thanks, stunning indeed.

The fact that the aerial shots were with gear down supports the idea that the entire flight was done gear down.


When I was tracking the flight log it never got higher than 14,900ft and 309mph was max speed which tells me it was most likely left down for the duration of the 1st flight.

Actually when it went to mount rainier it went up to 16,875 for the photo op
 
alyusuph
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:01 pm

What a massive aircraft! I think Boeing should also come up with a B773ER NEO for the airlines which would not want to purchase the 778 or 77X
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:02 pm

I notice that the doors of 777-X are placed differently from a 77W. The 2 door is located farther back, 3 door is no longer an overwing exit and 4 door is shortly behind 3 door. Is it because of new certification requirements (for evacuation) or to allow more creative first/business class cabin configuration?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10715
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:27 pm

SeoulIncheon wrote:
I notice that the doors of 777-X are placed differently from a 77W. The 2 door is located farther back, 3 door is no longer an overwing exit and 4 door is shortly behind 3 door. Is it because of new certification requirements (for evacuation) or to allow more creative first/business class cabin configuration?

Saves some weight (new door pair lighter than old overwings) and takes up less space in the cabin especially if plugged. Trade off is lower max passenger capacity but no airline uses 77Ws near its exit limit of 550 pax.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:27 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
When I was tracking the flight log it never got higher than 14,900ft and


I wonder if 14000 is the magic number as that is the elevation where oxygen is not needed for decompressed flight.

Opus99 wrote:
Actually when it went to mount rainier it went up to 16,875 for the photo op


And the top of Rainier is over 14,000 ft. Have to elevate to the perfect angle for the shot.


WIederling wrote:
If you get the aero right ( they seem to have ) the thicker wing is significantly lighter but stiffer.787 wing is heavy. 777X wing is said to be a scaled 787 wing : extra heavy.


Do you have finite element modeling to back this up? Historically for metal, stiffer does not necessarily mean more structurally efficient. It is true for honeycomb/sandwich construction, but may not be accurate for long thin skin/stringer/rib structures. Going to graphite epoxy, may change the equation a bit. It would be interesting to see a wing weight to lift curve. But the information, being proprietary, I doubt we can get an accurate comparison between the two philosophy.

bt

Aside: Curious though, wouldn't a laminar flow wing points you to a thinner wing anyway? The difference in thickness is only because of the general difference in aircraft size.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:33 pm

alyusuph wrote:
What a massive aircraft! I think Boeing should also come up with a B773ER NEO for the airlines which would not want to purchase the 778 or 77X


77W NEO is the 778
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:13 pm

bikerthai wrote:
WIederling wrote:
If you get the aero right ( they seem to have ) the thicker wing is significantly lighter but stiffer.787 wing is heavy. 777X wing is said to be a scaled 787 wing : extra heavy.


Do you have finite element modeling to back this up?


It is misconception that you have to do FEM on everything to get a good initial assessment and
engineering understanding of dependencies.

FEM is for finetuning.

What you need is understanding on how to abstract/reduce your model.
To get a grip on loads in a a wing you can start with an I-Beam.
Next finer would be a constant taper I-Beam.

the I-Beam base modeling says flange stresses are inversely proportional to webing height
for the same load.
For the same flange deformation ( tension, compression ) the higher webing creates
less deviation at the end.

Dimensioning for flanges ( on a plane the wing skins ) is given by allowable compression and tension forces
associated with a given deformation.
for the same moment arm limit a thinner wing will bend more.
and to achieve that moment arm a thinner wing will need thicker flanges
as with lower webbing stressses in the flanges are higher.

obviously some corners cut, but:
ergo: thin wings have a good chance of being more bendy and heavier.
But they are aerodynamically easier.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:15 pm

WIederling wrote:
If you get the aero right ( they seem to have ) the thicker wing is significantly lighter but stiffer.


This also bring me back to my college days in my composite classes. It is said that with GR/Epoxy, you are more strain dependent than stress dependent. IE, the plastic matrix will deflect more than metal at equivalent load. So trying to make an equivalent composite structure as stiff as a metal may not be as efficient. Not sure if this is the case for this discussion, but that is what I am made to believe :scratchchin:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
the I-Beam base modeling says flange stresses are inversely proportional to webing heightfor the same load.


True, but for a wing, the typical failure mode is upper skin buckling. So you are moving away from I-beam analysis and going toward thing membrane buckling. So even if you can make the over all wing box stiffer, you are limited by the gauge of the upper skin thickness (you can only go so thin).

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:24 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

What's "a (good) linear scaled" ?
I'm afraid than everybody not understand "technical words" and me in first!

The one you advertised as much more optimal:
a wing proportionally upsized from smaller planes
WIederling wrote:
You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.


I still understand this less. Can you be a little more explicit please...


the 777X is a heavy plane. This gain seems to mostly sit in the new wing.
Which is understandable when we go with "777X wing is a scale 787 wing"
structure is volume x³. wing area is x². increasing wing area comes with an overproportional weight penalty.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

What's "a (good) linear scaled" ?
I'm afraid than everybody not understand "technical words" and me in first!

The one you advertised as much more optimal:
a wing proportionally upsized from smaller planes
WIederling wrote:
You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.


I still understand this less. Can you be a little more explicit please...


the 777X is a heavy plane. This gain seems to mostly sit in the new wing.
Which is understandable when we go with "777X wing is a scale 787 wing"
structure is volume x³. wing area is x². increasing wing area comes with an overproportional weight penalty.



"Weight" is a characteristic not necessary a failure

Look the A350 over the 787 (even if the 787 is selling more) and look the 777X how it's asphyxiated the A350-1000

As a reminder, the 777-X is not heavier than the 777-300ER / -200LR.
350T. MTOW and the GE9X's have fewer thrusts than the GE-90-115B's

"Weight" is a characteristic not necessary a failure... :)

Rgds
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
StTim
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:39 pm

Checklist787 wrote:

As a reminder, the 777-X is not heavier than the 777-300ER / -200LR.
350T. MTOW and the GE9X's have fewer thrusts than the GE-90-115B's

"Weight" is a characteristic not necessary a failure... :)

Rgds


I know it isn't the absolute source of the truth but Wikipedia gives the following.

777-300ER OEW = 370,000 lb
777-9 OEW = 400,000 lb

MTOW is the same between the two at 775,000 lb

So the 777X is heavier than the 777-300ER before fuel and payload are included.
 
Karlsands
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:00 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
qf789 wrote:
First air to air video and photo released from Boeing

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/stu ... -inflight/

Looks nice, the proportions look ‘right’ in flight if a little front heavy.

Did they retract they gear at all in the flight? I knew historically it was never done on first flight for risk reasons but this seemed not to be the case now (787/A350/A380). Certainly looking forward to more air to air shots.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definitely was flying with a forward CG , being so light. During its flare as well , you will notice the angle of attack is quite shallow
 
Opus99
Posts: 1091
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:43 pm

StTim wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

As a reminder, the 777-X is not heavier than the 777-300ER / -200LR.
350T. MTOW and the GE9X's have fewer thrusts than the GE-90-115B's

"Weight" is a characteristic not necessary a failure... :)

Rgds


I know it isn't the absolute source of the truth but Wikipedia gives the following.

777-300ER OEW = 370,000 lb
777-9 OEW = 400,000 lb

MTOW is the same between the two at 775,000 lb

So the 777X is heavier than the 777-300ER before fuel and payload are included.

This is something I’ve been trying to look into. We don’t actually know the weight of the 777X they say it weighs around the same as the 77W but I’m not sure. The Wikipedia article source is from aviation week article from 2016 where It says Boeing changed its target from 370,000 pounds to 400,000 pounds but we don’t have any actual figures
 
tomcat
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:42 pm

WIederling wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
In detail, the 777-X also has an all-CFRP wing against a partial-CFRP if not CFRP for the A380 if my memory serves.


A380 wing loadbearing structure is AL. The wing skins are multilayer laminated Al.
A380 was dimensioned for near twice the MTOW that the 777(X) sports.
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.


Can you please elaborate a bit on the "multilayer laminated Al" of the A380 wing skins? You mean like laminated Al shims? That seems a bit strange to me. Other than the GLARE laminate mainly used on the fuselage upper skin panels, I was not aware of any other laminated metallic material used on structural members of the A380.
 
tomcat
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:32 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Slash787 wrote:
What will happen if they fold the wing tips during flight?

Relevant FAA regs ( https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips ) say:

The wingtips must have means to safeguard against unlocking from the extended, flight-deployed position in flight, as a result of failures, including the failure of any single structural element.

because:

Boeing has determined that a catastrophic event could occur if the Model 777-8 and 777-9 airplane wingtips are not properly positioned and secured for takeoff and during flight.


It looks like there are 3 hinges each with a pair of bearings and lock pins. Probably a gearmotor driving a worm gear which are self braking at any position and also compact to fit within the wing. Not a significant amount of weight compared to a bolt on tip, basically the 3 gearmotors and some controls.

This wingtip design could easily move into other models at this length. But it seems appropriate for this folding part be no more than 20% of the total, as both fuel and control surfaces are not in this portion.


It look to me that there are only 2 hinges judging by the 2 pairs of protruding lugs visible when the wing tip is folded upward. See for example at 0:25 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNyJbdv2KF4

Regarding the catastrophic consequence of the accidental loss or folding of one wingtip would be induced by a double phenomenon:
1) An asymmetric lift. In relative terms the lift loss might not be significant compared to the total lift generated by a singly wing, but this small percentage of lift loss would occur at the tip of the wing, maximizing the induced roll tendency. As long as the movable surfaces would designed to provide sufficient roll authority at any speed, this issue could be dealt with.
2) An asymmetric drag. One of the wings would loose about 10% of its span while only loosing a few percent of lift. The induced drag of the "tipless" wing would increase significantly. The asymmetric drag situation would have equivalent effect than an asymmetric power resulting from an engine loss, which is commonly dealt with.

It's hard to evaluate the yaw and roll authority that would be required to compensate for the loss of a wingtip. Obviously, it's more than the typical control surfaces can deliver, otherwise it wouldn't be deemed catastrophic. Let's also notice that while not fully compensated, the yaw resulting from the asymmetric drag would lead the intact wing to generate more lift and the "tipless" wing to generate less lift, aggravating the lift imbalance.

All in all, it seems more practical to develop a fail safe design. Dealing with a failure of one structural member among the hinges the locks or the spars of the wing tip can be addressed with a proper design able to cope with the redistributed loads without allowing to much torsion in the wingtip neither too much rotation around the pitch axis (indeed, a modification of the angle of attack of the wingtip due to a single structural failure must be limited in order to limit its lift generation). Thinking about this, even fixed raked wingtips must be pretty well built to at least be able to sustain the energy of a bird strike without departing from the wing. Such an even would have similar consequences as the accidental folding of a folding wingtip.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:48 pm

tomcat wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
In detail, the 777-X also has an all-CFRP wing against a partial-CFRP if not CFRP for the A380 if my memory serves.


A380 wing loadbearing structure is AL. The wing skins are multilayer laminated Al.
A380 was dimensioned for near twice the MTOW that the 777(X) sports.
A linear scaled, "good" as you say, wing would have gone through the roof in structure weight.

You see the weight downsides on the 777X already.


Can you please elaborate a bit on the "multilayer laminated Al" of the A380 wing skins? You mean like laminated Al shims? That seems a bit strange to me. Other than the GLARE laminate mainly used on the fuselage upper skin panels, I was not aware of any other laminated metallic material used on structural members of the A380.


"obviously the A380 is a superanuated design choice that is no match to ... " :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpSgj-tKelY

Wingskins are made from multiple machined flat sheets that are thermally creep formed in an oven/autoclave to conform
to the wing surface shape. Then processed to a single part each ( top, bottom )

Found that rather interesting at the time.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24604
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:08 pm

tomcat wrote:
All in all, it seems more practical to develop a fail safe design. Dealing with a failure of one structural member among the hinges the locks or the spars of the wing tip can be addressed with a proper design able to cope with the redistributed loads without allowing to much torsion in the wingtip neither too much rotation around the pitch axis (indeed, a modification of the angle of attack of the wingtip due to a single structural failure must be limited in order to limit its lift generation). Thinking about this, even fixed raked wingtips must be pretty well built to at least be able to sustain the energy of a bird strike without departing from the wing. Such an even would have similar consequences as the accidental folding of a folding wingtip.

Thanks for the well-considered reply! It gave me a lot to think about. I do think some aircraft can fly without a winglet if it is removed entirely, but many of those wings were designed from the start without winglets.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
DUSdude
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:20 am

Re: Boeing 777-9 first flight 25 January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:12 pm

I caught her when she passed behind my house on approach to BFI at the end of the flight.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mvk116/shares/VBA7v6

Not sure if any of these pass must for upload to a-net. I normally stick to photographing the feathered kind of birds. ;-)

M

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos