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conaly
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Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:55 am

Second try, first thread got deleted due to my own mistake, sorry for that!

According to German business paper Wirtschaftswoche, Ryanair is said to be in talks for up to 100 A320neo/A321neo for Lauda. Last Fall they couldn't get to an agreement, as Ryanair did not get their demanded discounts and Airbus was not willing to sell aircraft, which they would not make money with, as the demand for the A320neo is still high.

Could this be tactics again or a real order this time? Ryanair is pretty unhappy with the lack of 737Max deliveries but after they failed to negotiate good conditions the last time, maybe this time it's do or die for them now. Personally, I do not see much gain for Ryanair in ordering Airbus, because the order books are filled up into the late 2020s and Ryanair apparently is not getting their demanded discounts of around 50%. And unless they can get some earlier delivery slots from wherever, they have to wait anyway. On the other hand, without any new aircraft, expanding will be difficult, therefore growth has to be achieved somehow. So maybe paying more for an assured delivery is a necessary evil and with that, growth could be achieved with the brand of Laudamotion instead or Ryanair itself.

The article is German only:
Article: https://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/dienstl ... 62616.html

For English translation I tried DeepL and the text was very readable, so maybe try that one, in case you need a translated version (just don't post it here, that was the reason my first thread was deleted ;) ).
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
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frigatebird
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:33 am

Well this where MoL's rather unusual negotiation tactics (aka arrogance) and publicity-seeking ego are backfiring. 50% discount for an order up to 100 narrowbody aircraft normally isn't unusual at all. But with an A320neo backlog of 6000 aircraft Airbus can set the conditions. And although I don't believe the "the high ranking Airbus manager" (in the article) saying they're not too interested in new orders which hardly bring profit, if any, Airbus is quietly laughing now at MoL crawling back to them. He can get his discount, but will have to place an order for A320neo's to replace his remaining Ryanair 737NG aircraft as well, I'd say if I were Airbus ;)
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Noshow
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:15 am

It's not the best moment to order Airbus narrow bodies for cheap for sure, as demand is so high and they are sold out for years. But who knows where else Airbus increases capacity (TLS) and opens up new slots? Some customer like FR with a standard configuration comes in handy to start a new line. Ryanair needed to go Airbus A321neo as their second fleet for many years and they had Lauda with Airbus in house to evaluate it in detail. So no surprise.

If a big order materializes it will be interesting to see if the FR group pairs it with some wide body order like A330neo or similar...
 
behramjee
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:20 am

If a fresh new A32N/A32Q order is being placed by an airline, the earliest delivery slot is 2025 onwards which I bet MOL will not want to wait that long for. Maybe, he can manage to get the NEO slots that Avianca recently gave up for 20 units which were to be obtained sooner.

But Airbus is right, as no matter who the customer is for the A32N and A32Q, due to MAX grounding and exceptional backlogged demand for the 320Neo family line, there is no need to give heavy discounts.

If an airline wants Airbus NBs as soon as possible, then A220-300s can be ordered and obtained 2022 onwards.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 am

Can't Airbus, since there is so much demand of its a/c, increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period? Like 3 years from now? All suppliers should be able in such long term figure.
 
TC957
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:30 am

I hope Airbus make MoL squirm. No way should they give in to his discount demands when the aircraft are selling at far better margins to everyone else. He'll get new Max's for comparative peanuts once Boeing has them flowing off the line again and airlines start cancel their existing orders over all the uncertainties and delays.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:37 am

.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..
 
WIederling
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:42 am

TC957 wrote:
I hope Airbus make MoL squirm. No way should they give in to his discount demands when the aircraft are selling at far better margins to everyone else. He'll get new Max's for comparative peanuts once Boeing has them flowing off the line again and airlines start cancel their existing orders over all the uncertainties and delays.


They could make him wear a bikini again for the negotiations. Finalize in some disco?
MoL does a round of pole dancing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:43 am

He is a businessman trying to get the best deal for his company, I understand that. Certainly not fond of him. He does seem to have picked the wrong deal to go after, it's a seller market.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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P1aneMad
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:46 am

A very large part of that almost 6.500 frame backlog belongs to lessors. I am sure Airbus, FR and leasing companies can work a deal where Lauda gets aircraft far sooner than 2025.
Also some of the Asian carriers who (according to me at least) have overordered and just might not be able to take so many frames in a short amount of time could be willing to spread their deliveries over a longer period of time and thus free up more frames for FR and possible others who need aircraft pronto.

Just my two cents.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:47 am

oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..

Count me in! :wave:
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:49 am

behramjee wrote:
If a fresh new A32N/A32Q order is being placed by an airline, the earliest delivery slot is 2025 onwards which I bet MOL will not want to wait that long for. Maybe, he can manage to get the NEO slots that Avianca recently gave up for 20 units which were to be obtained sooner.

But Airbus is right, as no matter who the customer is for the A32N and A32Q, due to MAX grounding and exceptional backlogged demand for the 320Neo family line, there is no need to give heavy discounts.

If an airline wants Airbus NBs as soon as possible, then A220-300s can be ordered and obtained 2022 onwards.


I bet they would give IAG almost anything to kill their MAX order but MOL, nope. Airbus will throw in a set of steak knives if he pays retail but thats about it.

N14AZ wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..

Count me in! :wave:


I wouldn't say secretly..
BV
 
airlinerart
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:57 am

oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..


No.

Why have you met the guy, has he personally done something nasty to you?

His business practices have shafted a lot of people but overall he has helped bring air travel to the masses and made it affordable. Brought air travel to many places that would never have got it and thereby a little bit of local prosperity and given employment to ten of thousands (admittedly many under terrible contracts but at least they still have work).

Yep I'd rather travel with another airline if I had a choice but I often don't so yea I would like to se them get Airbuses because for me it's more European jobs and personally I just find an Airbus a better flying experience than a 737 though both are outstanding products.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:57 am

N14AZ wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..

Count me in! :wave:


Maybe it's because I'm getting older, and maybe it's the andropause hitting me hard in the face, but I firmly believe the world COULD and SHOULD demand a new league of 'more humane' economic leaders. I've had enough of bold, arrogant, brazen-faced characters. There's no need to be a horrible person whilst striving to be a good CEO. Not in my book at least. Call me naïve...
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:02 am

airlinerart wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..


No.

Why have you met the guy, has he personally done something nasty to you?

His business practices have shafted a lot of people but overall he has helped bring air travel to the masses and made it affordable. Brought air travel to many places that would never have got it and thereby a little bit of local prosperity and given employment to ten of thousands (admittedly many under terrible contracts but at least they still have work).

Yep I'd rather travel with another airline if I had a choice but I often don't so yea I would like to se them get Airbuses because for me it's more European jobs and personally I just find an Airbus a better flying experience than a 737 though both are outstanding products.


Absolutely not. And I fly FR quite a bit.
It's the unnecessarily harsh, arrogant, aggressive behavior. The press releases where he randomly attacks others. The way he comes hard on people (his own workers) who demand better conditions. The unfair market practices. The contract scamming. The closures of bases for random reasons.
You could perfectly run the same successful business model and be a better human being at that, with both your workers and your competitors. I just don't find him an inspirational leader.

Freddie Laker, just to name one, on the other hand......
 
olle
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:05 am

Does thismeans that Ryanair thru Lauda will expand more in Germany as a base thu central part of Europe and Scandinavia?

With the decreasing in Scandinavia and Germany Ryanair it seems like it will not be Ryanair but Lauda that will go in these markets instead...
 
Amiga500
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:12 am

I used to think MOL was a 100% ****.

But I've recently learned that he organised and repatriated the body of Anthony Foley from Paris back to Limerick completely free of charge and off his own back... and never mentioned it to anyone.

So I've revised my opinion. Not a 100% **** any more - but of course that doesn't mean he's a 0% **** - just somewhere in between.
 
gloom
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:14 am

Kikko19 wrote:
Can't Airbus, since there is so much demand of its a/c, increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period? Like 3 years from now? All suppliers should be able in such long term figure.


Yes, they all could.
However, there's a stability that's the key in increasing. If you remember 787 case, they started at 10/m and somewhere back (2016? can't remember too well) announced 13/m IIRC. And now they're switching back to 10/m
This basically means someone invested extra for tooling, machines, whatever else to increase the output, and now the machines/tools/people will not be needed anymore. And some of them cannot be assigned to other tasks/production, they're "one off".

That's why we don't see rushing such decisions. It takes a large queue and also a decision for many, many contributors. And also unique machines/tools, or competencies.

Airbus is slowly increasing production, perhaps too slow seeing demand today. But who knows tomorrow and sales figures? After all, Airbus is not chasing to sell every plane on the world, but rather intends to earn max profit. If they produced too much, margin for profit descreases.

It's not as easy as you might think, to decide on production increase...

Cheers,
Adam
 
leghorn
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:19 am

He has to show a credible interest in Airbus planes in order to extract additional discounts on 737Max. I'd guess he'd be aiming for a 737Max10 for the price of a Max8.
Imagine how much money he will be able to coin on the bucket and spade routes with a Max10 Just one more flight attendant and barely any more fuel burnt.
 
Danny
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:03 pm

Considering both Easyjet and Wizzair already bought A321neo Airbus knows that Ryanair has no option but to buy it too if they want to stay competetive.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:13 pm

gloom wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Can't Airbus, since there is so much demand of its a/c, increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period? Like 3 years from now? All suppliers should be able in such long term figure.


Yes, they all could.
However, there's a stability that's the key in increasing. If you remember 787 case, they started at 10/m and somewhere back (2016? can't remember too well) announced 13/m IIRC. And now they're switching back to 10/m
This basically means someone invested extra for tooling, machines, whatever else to increase the output, and now the machines/tools/people will not be needed anymore. And some of them cannot be assigned to other tasks/production, they're "one off".

That's why we don't see rushing such decisions. It takes a large queue and also a decision for many, many contributors. And also unique machines/tools, or competencies.

Airbus is slowly increasing production, perhaps too slow seeing demand today. But who knows tomorrow and sales figures? After all, Airbus is not chasing to sell every plane on the world, but rather intends to earn max profit. If they produced too much, margin for profit descreases.

It's not as easy as you might think, to decide on production increase...

Cheers,
Adam
I guess it is the right choice. Likely they are waiting for the max if won't be able to return to service the gates will be open wide.
 
AirbusA370
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:21 pm

Airbus had 142 cancellations of A320 series AC in 2019.

Those slots (some of them likely early) can be sold now...
 
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Polot
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:24 pm

AirbusA370 wrote:
Airbus had 142 cancellations of A320 series AC in 2019.

Those slots (some of them likely early) can be sold now...

Any early slots are not necessarily up for grabs, as Airbus is going to be using some slots from cancellations or deferments to try and get deliveries back on promised schedule.
 
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conaly
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:37 pm

The article has been updated from the original version I was referring to in my first post. While Laudamotion confirmed to be in talks to expand the fleet from 23 to 38 aircraft, Ryanair disclaimed to have commenced negotiations with Airbus!
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Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:57 pm

airlinerart wrote:
Brought air travel to many places that would never have got it and thereby a little bit of local prosperity and given employment to ten of thousands (admittedly many under terrible contracts but at least they still have work).

But this is called exploitation of workers.

oldannyboy wrote:
The way he comes hard on people (his own workers) who demand better conditions. The unfair market practices. The contract scamming. The closures of bases for random reasons.
For example EIN, people went on strike for better working conditions. MoL threatened to close if they did, and a few weeks after the strike FR closed the base. With some lame excuse it wasn't profitable enough. Fortunately Dutch court didn't buy it, and FR was ordered to pay large compensation sums to the people who lost their jobs as a result of FR closing its base there.
Whether FR did pay I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if MoL is personally blocking it.

I principally don't fly FR. I feel I have to watch my back if I would buy a ticket, if they're not trying to find a sneaky way to scam me.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:59 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Can't Airbus, since there is so much demand of its a/c, increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period? Like 3 years from now? All suppliers should be able in such long term figure.

They already are at over 30/month: Airbus delivered 642 A320Family (CEO & neo) in 2019, that's an average of 53.5/month.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:02 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
He is a businessman trying to get the best deal for his company, I understand that. Certainly not fond of him. He does seem to have picked the wrong deal to go after, it's a seller market.

There is no need for so much cockiness to be a good businessman; he's able to twist the small guys wrist, but not the big guys or the tough guys.
He needs to be taught a lesson: a business deal needs to mutually benefit both parties, not just MOL.
 
WIederling
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:05 pm

leghorn wrote:
He has to show a credible interest in Airbus planes in order to extract additional discounts on 737Max. I'd guess he'd be aiming for a 737Max10 for the price of a Max8.
Imagine how much money he will be able to coin on the bucket and spade routes with a Max10 Just one more flight attendant and barely any more fuel burnt.


MAX are unavailable. And his "personal" MAX200 frames are extra unavailable. ( certification is stopped up.)

There will be at least a year of full MAX production missing forever and the delivery stream will lag historic
expectations by 15..20 month. used/freed up NG and CEO should increase in value quite a bit.

With competitors using NEO MoL is out on a limb: His NG fleet ( plus his "strange" operations model ) was competitive in relation to CEO but not NEO.
Murphy is an optimist
 
gloom
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:12 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period?

They already are at over 30/month: Airbus delivered 642 A320Family (CEO & neo) in 2019, that's an average of 53.5/month.


See again. Original poster wanted to see increase (by) 30+ a month, so basically going from current around 55/m to 85/m.

Cheers,
Adam
 
mwhcvt
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:26 pm

Thing is MoL and former Airbus Head of Sales Mr Leahy had a particularly frosty relationship after MoL boasted of only using airbus to drive down Boeing on an order, supposably the next time MoL can knocking the response from Airbus was simple, this is the list price, you pay that or buy Boeing end of negotiation
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
TC957
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:26 pm

AirbusA370 wrote:
Airbus had 142 cancellations of A320 series AC in 2019.

Those slots (some of them likely early) can be sold now...

Maybe, but I would hardly think Airbus will say lets not allocated these to our existing customers just in case MoL comes calling.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:27 pm

TC957 wrote:
I hope Airbus make MoL squirm. No way should they give in to his discount demands when the aircraft are selling at far better margins to everyone else.

:checkmark: Airbus doesn't need this order. I hope they offer him full list price and tell him to buy more glorious MAXs if he objects.

oldannyboy wrote:
.....Is anyone else here secretly hoping the horrid Irishman gets a tall hard middle finger planted in his face???..

Absolutely. You reap what you sow.

WIederling wrote:
They could make him wear a bikini again for the negotiations. Finalize in some disco?
MoL does a round of pole dancing?


It's time like this that I wish John Leahy was still around.

olle wrote:
Does thismeans that Ryanair thru Lauda will expand more in Germany as a base thu central part of Europe and Scandinavia?

With the decreasing in Scandinavia and Germany Ryanair it seems like it will not be Ryanair but Lauda that will go in these markets instead...


I think so and with the MAX issues, I expect more of Ryanair's Central, Eastern and (eventually) Northern European flying to be shifted to Laudamotion.
First to fly the 787-9
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:35 pm

mwhcvt wrote:
Thing is MoL and former Airbus Head of Sales Mr Leahy had a particularly frosty relationship after MoL boasted of only using airbus to drive down Boeing on an order, supposably the next time MoL can knocking the response from Airbus was simple, this is the list price, you pay that or buy Boeing end of negotiation

And that's sometimes the best response to give a cocky businessman: respect our interaction or go f... yourself.
MOL is learning the hard way that he pissed off a lot of people. I'm jubilating :cloudnine:
 
leghorn
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
leghorn wrote:
He has to show a credible interest in Airbus planes in order to extract additional discounts on 737Max. I'd guess he'd be aiming for a 737Max10 for the price of a Max8.
Imagine how much money he will be able to coin on the bucket and spade routes with a Max10 Just one more flight attendant and barely any more fuel burnt.


MAX are unavailable. And his "personal" MAX200 frames are extra unavailable. ( certification is stopped up.)

There will be at least a year of full MAX production missing forever and the delivery stream will lag historic
expectations by 15..20 month. used/freed up NG and CEO should increase in value quite a bit.

With competitors using NEO MoL is out on a limb: His NG fleet ( plus his "strange" operations model ) was competitive in relation to CEO but not NEO.

The companies that can afford to pay for planes will get planes and both Max200 and Max10 are competitive.
The company doesn't need the range of a 321Neo to mint money within Europe which is their centre of business.
Max200 and Max10 will mint money on their routes from northern European cities and the southern european tourist resorts and they will swamp out the legacy carriers on the main city pairs in Europe.
If Airbus do him a favour that's great, if not he'll get the planes he needs at low prices from Boeing.
 
airbazar
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:52 pm

leghorn wrote:
WIederling wrote:
With competitors using NEO MoL is out on a limb: His NG fleet ( plus his "strange" operations model ) was competitive in relation to CEO but not NEO.


If Airbus do him a favour that's great, if not he'll get the planes he needs at low prices from Boeing.


The point is nothing is coming out of Boeing right now or for the foreseeable future and any guesses as to when Boeing will start delivering MAX's again, is just that, a guess. It could be 3 months, it could be 3 years, or it could be never. Nobody knows, not even Boeing. Remember when this first started everyone was like, it will be fixed in 3 months. Well it's been more than a year now and still no fix in sight.
 
leghorn
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:58 pm

Stop being a Chicken Little. People will put the boot in while they can but that plane will be back in service soon enough.
 
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conaly
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:04 pm

zkojq wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I hope Airbus make MoL squirm. No way should they give in to his discount demands when the aircraft are selling at far better margins to everyone else.

:checkmark: Airbus doesn't need this order. I hope they offer him full list price and tell him to buy more glorious MAXs if he objects.


Don't think Airbus will do something like that. In case MoL is really interested in Airbus planes and wants to get a good number of them, Airbus would be stupid to show him the middle finger. I'm pretty sure they will handle it professionally and offer him similar discounts as they give to other airlines. I mean why wouldn't they? Every shareholder would go berserk, if they'd find out, that Airbus blew an order, just to say "in your face!". There is no need for Airbus (or Boeing for whatever reason) to sink to MoL's level. But there is also no need to offer ridiculous discounts, just because MoL being MoL...
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WIederling
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
leghorn wrote:
WIederling wrote:
With competitors using NEO MoL is out on a limb: His NG fleet ( plus his "strange" operations model ) was competitive in relation to CEO but not NEO.


If Airbus do him a favour that's great, if not he'll get the planes he needs at low prices from Boeing.


The point is nothing is coming out of Boeing right now or for the foreseeable future and any guesses as to when Boeing will start delivering MAX's again, is just that, a guess. It could be 3 months, it could be 3 years, or it could be never. Nobody knows, not even Boeing. Remember when this first started everyone was like, it will be fixed in 3 months. Well it's been more than a year now and still no fix in sight.

3 month from now is fully unrealistic.
Boeing offered mid of the year and the only analyst touching on RTS timing sees August in its glass ball.
Thus a realistic "earliest" probably is August of this year. to the right it looks fully open.

As I wrote before: 600+++ frames will be missing ( FAL stopped ) and the delivery stream will be delayed by 1000..1200++.
Murphy is an optimist
 
IWMBH
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:16 pm

Wonderful how a topic about Lauda ordering Airbus planes escalates in a MOL bashing contest. But back on-topic, I don't think this is just a trick to get Boeing to lower their prices. After the MAX-debacle airlines can see the downside of operating just one type, and with Lauda already using the A320 I think MOL doesn't want them to switch to the MAX.

I don't think Airbus will give Lauda a big discount because their order books are filled for years to come. But, if Lauda isn't in a hurry and go for some slots after 2025, I think they will get a good deal. They can always pick up some second hand A320's for short term growth.
 
leghorn
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
airbazar wrote:
leghorn wrote:

If Airbus do him a favour that's great, if not he'll get the planes he needs at low prices from Boeing.


The point is nothing is coming out of Boeing right now or for the foreseeable future and any guesses as to when Boeing will start delivering MAX's again, is just that, a guess. It could be 3 months, it could be 3 years, or it could be never. Nobody knows, not even Boeing. Remember when this first started everyone was like, it will be fixed in 3 months. Well it's been more than a year now and still no fix in sight.

3 month from now is fully unrealistic.
Boeing offered mid of the year and the only analyst touching on RTS timing sees August in its glass ball.
Thus a realistic "earliest" probably is August of this year. to the right it looks fully open.

As I wrote before: 600+++ frames will be missing ( FAL stopped ) and the delivery stream will be delayed by 1000..1200++.

I'm not concerned about Boeing's financial difficulties. the spigot will be turned on again and Boeing have a choice of either throwing tens to hundreds of millions in to marketing or giving steep discounts to large airliners. It is obvious they'll give discounts as it will be a more effective means of restoring faith.
Airbus can play the part and pretend they actually want to win business from Ryanair if it means that Boeing earn no profit through massive discounts on many, many months of production.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:18 pm

It makes sense for Ryanair to expand via their proxy Laudamotion with a diverse fleet. But, I’ll believe this order when it happens. If it does, Airbus will be very happy to be ‘raped’ by MOL.

leghorn wrote:
People will put the boot in while they can but that plane will be back in service soon enough.


People have been saying that since last March.
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Kikko19
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
It makes sense for Ryanair to expand via their proxy Laudamotion with a diverse fleet. But, I’ll believe this order when it happens. If it does, Airbus will be very happy to be ‘raped’ by MOL.

leghorn wrote:
People will put the boot in while they can but that plane will be back in service soon enough.


People have been saying that since last March.

In One year they will repeat the same mantra.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:41 pm

gloom wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period?

They already are at over 30/month: Airbus delivered 642 A320Family (CEO & neo) in 2019, that's an average of 53.5/month.


See again. Original poster wanted to see increase (by) 30+ a month, so basically going from current around 55/m to 85/m.

Cheers,
Adam

Exactly.
Thanks
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:44 pm

conaly wrote:
zkojq wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I hope Airbus make MoL squirm. No way should they give in to his discount demands when the aircraft are selling at far better margins to everyone else.

:checkmark: Airbus doesn't need this order. I hope they offer him full list price and tell him to buy more glorious MAXs if he objects.


Don't think Airbus will do something like that. In case MoL is really interested in Airbus planes and wants to get a good number of them, Airbus would be stupid to show him the middle finger. I'm pretty sure they will handle it professionally and offer him similar discounts as they give to other airlines. I mean why wouldn't they? Every shareholder would go berserk, if they'd find out, that Airbus blew an order, just to say "in your face!". There is no need for Airbus (or Boeing for whatever reason) to sink to MoL's level. But there is also no need to offer ridiculous discounts, just because MoL being MoL...

No doubt Airbus will handle that business discussion professionally and offer him what other airlines are getting for a similar size order.
However, MOL has shown that he doesn't handle business discussion professionally and expects/request much better financial conditions that other customers.

As you said, Airbus should (and most likely) will come and discuss in a professional manner; but not bend over backward to please Mister MOL.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:48 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
gloom wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
increase the production like 30+ per month in longer period?

They already are at over 30/month: Airbus delivered 642 A320Family (CEO & neo) in 2019, that's an average of 53.5/month.


See again. Original poster wanted to see increase (by) 30+ a month, so basically going from current around 55/m to 85/m.

Cheers,
Adam

Exactly.
Thanks

What is percent-wise the best NB increase in production per year we've seen in recent years?
60% takes a couple of years.

Though production issues seem to have been more attached to revamping assembly or design/options
Murphy is an optimist
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2562
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:26 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Wonderful how a topic about Lauda ordering Airbus planes escalates in a MOL bashing contest. .


...hard not to, given how much 'behind negotiations' with ..err... gimmicks and tactics and vitriolic comments MoL always is! (..and how much he needs to world to know that)
 
Noshow
Posts: 1497
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:30 pm

MOL is quite a successful airline CEO. He has every right to negotiate the best deals for his company.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18971
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:32 pm

Noshow wrote:
MOL is quite a successful airline CEO. He has every right to negotiate the best deals for his company.


Agreed on both counts.

He just doesn't need to be such an arse about it. :butthead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:35 pm

scbriml wrote:
Noshow wrote:
MOL is quite a successful airline CEO. He has every right to negotiate the best deals for his company.


Agreed on both counts.

He just doesn't need to be such an arse about it. :butthead:

+1

CEO's like him will go very high very quickly... and tend to go down even quicker.
As a CEO, you need to respect your customers, your employers, but also your partners (suppliers); he don't do dat...
 
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767333ER
Posts: 1169
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Re: Wirtschaftswoche: Ryanair to buy up 100 A320/A321neo for Lauda

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:49 pm

airlinerart wrote:
given employment to ten of thousands (admittedly many under terrible contracts but at least they still have work).

You realize that this is the same rationale that is used to justify or defend sweatshops, just putting that out there...
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