"It was not owned by Kobe Bryant. Island Express Holding, a charter company which goes by IEX Holding, is owned by Phillip DiFiore, of Long Beach, and has been in operation since 2011. DiFiore also owns Island Express Helicopters, which he has operated since 1986. DiFiore and his companies could not be reached for comment. Island Express appears to have taken down its website and social media profiles after the crash."

freerover wrote:

"It was not owned by Kobe Bryant. Island Express Holding, a charter company which goes by IEX Holding, is owned by Phillip DiFiore, of Long Beach, and has been in operation since 2011. DiFiore also owns Island Express Helicopters, which he has operated since 1986. DiFiore and his companies could not be reached for comment. Island Express appears to have taken down its website and social media profiles after the crash."

Are you sure the helicopter wasn’t just managed by the charter company. Kobe isn’t going to have his own hangar and maintenance program.

ATC recordings....

https://youtu.be/B0pQfgi9ZqU

As a basketball fan since I was a kid this loss saddens me no end. Kobe had his challenges but always pushed through and stayed a star. Though I never really accepted his talent at the time but he did have talent that was hard to compare... that he was a legend of the sport there is no question in my soul.

Sad end to the life of a giant of basketball.





Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

With that weather and that helicopter, wouldn't it be easier to go up, fly straight and then down at the destination ?

Canuck600 wrote:

djm18 wrote:

LAPD says weather conditions didn't meet standards for flying
From CNN's Sarah Moon
Weather conditions on Sunday morning did not meet the Los Angeles Police Department’s minimum standards for flying, spokesman Josh Rubenstein confirmed to CNN.

Due to foggy conditions, LAPD had grounded their helicopters in the morning.

“This morning we did not fly because of that [weather],” said Rubenstein.

All that probably means that there helicopters are equipped for VFR only.

And that the purpose of the helos being mainly to watch the ground, there is no point in flying them IMC.

32andBelow wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

Clackers wrote:

Who the hell takes off in a helicopter in THICK FOG?

BryanRIP

I was in the area right before the crash driving south on the coast. Fog was bad. Real bad. This will ultimately be CFIT even though CNN reported they had mechanical issue which they did not.

How do you have cfit in a low part of a valley?

Looking at the scene I think the impact was much higher than the final resting place of the aircraft.

One should listen to Greg Feith who knows more than anyone on these matters.

Just some additional thoughts based on current preliminary data and info. Just remember that options are always subject to change based on new info.
ATC recorded discussions indicate the pilot was attempting to fly under Special VFR because the weather had gone down in the Burbank and Van Nuys areas. The Burbank controller had N72EX hold outside of controlled airspace because of multiple IFR aircraft and an aircraft on a missed approach.
The pilot started following the 5 North to get through the Burbank - Van Nuys airspace. He followed several other highways to transition through the Burbank airspace SVFR.
The pilot told the Van Nuys controller he was at 1400 feet, the ceiling at Van Nuys was reported to be 1100 feet (he was still required to use ground references for navigation). He told the controller he was VFR at 1500 feet.
The pilot contacted SOCAL and was flying around Van Nuys when the controller asked what his intentions were - the controller stated to the pilot that the helicopter was at an altitude that was too low for controller to pick him up on radar for flight following - (which means he was below the terrain )and it is apparent from pictures and witness reports that he likely was maneuvering in the fog/clouds while in an area of rising terrain that was obscured.
Disorientation is always a possibility but the aircraft has an autopilot so one scenario that should be examined is CFIT while maneuvering in low clouds and fog while trying to maintain visual contact with the ground.
The NTSB will be collecting information tomorrow that will hopefully begin to provide factual information and clarity with a fact-based scenario.

Rest in peace Kobe.

Aesma wrote:

With that weather and that helicopter, wouldn't it be easier to go up, fly straight and then down at the destination ?

Not if they're trying to remain VFR (not saying that is the right call but would explain staying low)

It was foggy but were there low ceilings as well? May have missed that

Kobe and his middle daughter died in the crash. she was 13. one of the other passengers was a coach

I'm no sports fan, even less a basketball fan, but this saddens me.

In the office, we'd often yell "Kobe!" as we threw something in the trash can, usually missing. He is a part of our vernacular and will live on. RIP

NIKV69 wrote:

The pilot started following the 5 North to get through the Burbank - Van Nuys airspace. He followed several other highways to transition through the Burbank airspace SVFR.

Pardon the noob question: Helicopters follow roads to navigate? How high above the ground do helicopters typically fly when navigating by road?

I guess that could make sense in flat areas. But in mountainous areas, isn't following the road going to be following the valleys, putting you between mountain peaks? Again, maybe not a big deal in clear weather, you can just fly high above the peaks. But in heavy fog, how can you see the road? You'd have to be pretty low, which would put you in a very dangerous area between mountain peaks. Looks like the last segment the helicopter was following 101 through the mountains.

flybucky wrote:

Pardon the noob question: Helicopters follow roads to navigate? How high above the ground do helicopters typically fly when navigating by road?

IFR - I Follow Roads (see also: scud running)

flybucky wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

The pilot started following the 5 North to get through the Burbank - Van Nuys airspace. He followed several other highways to transition through the Burbank airspace SVFR.

Pardon the noob question: Helicopters follow roads to navigate? How high above the ground do helicopters typically fly when navigating by road?

I guess that could make sense in flat areas. But in mountainous areas, isn't following the road going to be following the valleys, putting you between mountain peaks? Again, maybe not a big deal in clear weather, you can just fly high above the peaks. But in heavy fog, how can you see the road? You'd have to be pretty low, which would put you in a very dangerous area between mountain peaks. Looks like the last segment the helicopter was following 101 through the mountains.

It’s called pilotage. All VFR pilots use landmarks.

ThePointblank wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

djm18 wrote:

LAPD says weather conditions didn't meet standards for flying
From CNN's Sarah Moon
Weather conditions on Sunday morning did not meet the Los Angeles Police Department’s minimum standards for flying, spokesman Josh Rubenstein confirmed to CNN.

Due to foggy conditions, LAPD had grounded their helicopters in the morning.

“This morning we did not fly because of that [weather],” said Rubenstein.

All that probably means that there helicopters are equipped for VFR only.

None of the LAPD's helicopters are IFR capable, save for the Bell 412, which is capable, but they may not have had the pilots that had a IFR certification.

Not many single engined helicopters are certified for IFR flight; the ones that are capable of it are all very recent designs, and certification of those started in 2016.

I thought there were a lot of single engine single pilot IFR machines in the medivac world in the states?

Looking at the track, it appears the pilot, after leaving Glendale, pretty much lined up on the 101 but instead of continuing on, he made two left turns into a hillside. Maybe he got lost or had mechanical problems?

I wonder if any driver on the 101 at the time could tell us about visibility. I know is was foggy in Orange County but we had at least a couple miles of visibility where I live. But the day before we only had a few hundred feet in the AM.

MrBretz wrote:

Looking at the track, it appears the pilot, after leaving Glendale, pretty much lined up on the 101 but instead of continuing on, he made two left turns into a hillside. Maybe he got lost or had mechanical problems?

I wonder if any driver on the 101 at the time could tell us about visibility. I know is was foggy in Orange County but we had at least a couple miles of visibility where I live. But the day before we only had a few hundred feet in the AM.

Reports were basically socked in in that area. Even where we are in Glendale at 900 ft, we were fogged in all morning, but not as thick.

Thanks for the information From a few of you about how helicopters operate following an engine failure. Looks like it’s still early but right now that seems the comments so far are CFIT, even though we are still Waiting for the final verdict.

In the event it was CFIT, I’ve watched a few documentaries on how athletes go broke and flying Private is one of the top reasons. But we are talking abut Kobe Bryant. He’s not in the same realm as those guys who went broke as far as how much money he made. The fact that he doesn’t have his own helicopter, own pilot, and own hanger with IFR capabilities sees worrisome At best, Negligence at worst. I’ve watched Kobe for 20 years and a decision to just be using a charter company to fly your family around with how calculated his decisions are on a day to day basis is very odd. I get even the most experienced pilot can have an accident but so far this just looks very time building-ish not experienced pilot with the area....

SocalApproach wrote:

Thanks for the information From a few of you about how helicopters operate following an engine failure. Looks like it’s still early but right now that seems the comments so far are CFIT, even though we are still Waiting for the final verdict.

In the event it was CFIT, I’ve watched a few documentaries on how athletes go broke and flying Private is one of the top reasons. But we are talking abut Kobe Bryant. He’s not in the same realm as those guys who went broke as far as how much money he made. The fact that he doesn’t have his own helicopter, own pilot, and own hanger with IFR capabilities sees worrisome At best, Negligence at worst. I’ve watched Kobe for 20 years and a decision to just be using a charter company to fly your family around with how calculated his decisions are on a day to day basis is very odd. I get even the most experienced pilot can have an accident but so far this just looks very time building-ish not experienced pilot with the area....

Why are people saying this isn’t his helicopter. This helicopter has been well documented as his. It’s common to have your private aircraft operated by a management company.

32andBelow wrote:

SocalApproach wrote:

Thanks for the information From a few of you about how helicopters operate following an engine failure. Looks like it’s still early but right now that seems the comments so far are CFIT, even though we are still Waiting for the final verdict.

In the event it was CFIT, I’ve watched a few documentaries on how athletes go broke and flying Private is one of the top reasons. But we are talking abut Kobe Bryant. He’s not in the same realm as those guys who went broke as far as how much money he made. The fact that he doesn’t have his own helicopter, own pilot, and own hanger with IFR capabilities sees worrisome At best, Negligence at worst. I’ve watched Kobe for 20 years and a decision to just be using a charter company to fly your family around with how calculated his decisions are on a day to day basis is very odd. I get even the most experienced pilot can have an accident but so far this just looks very time building-ish not experienced pilot with the area....

Why are people saying this isn’t his helicopter. This helicopter has been well documented as his. It’s common to have your private aircraft operated by a management company.

Okay sure “his” helicopter. Kobe’s name
Is on the “pink slip” but you get what People mean. I guarantee the pilots that fly trump around are always the same pilots or at least a group of them that only fly for the POTUS. The pilot flying Kobe probably flew some kids over the Grand Canyon 48 hours ago and that’s what is bothersome because Kobe can afford
To have a pilot or pool of “pilot(s)” that know the area and the capabilities of the helicopter. Not to mention if it’s “his” helicopter I’m still surprised it isn’t decked out with the most sophisticated technology there is while being checked head to tail 24/7. It’s Kobe Bryant. It’s already been confirmed the pilot who used to fly him around doesn’t anymore.

I mean look, I’m still a little distraught. Kobe’s been flying to staples center for at least 10+ Years for games as a player. Helicopters aren’t really that safe so maybe it was just his time but so far the initial news makes it look like he was settling with who should be flying him and his family around

strfyr51 wrote:

Kobe and his middle daughter died in the crash. she was 13. one of the other passengers was a coach

Christina Mauser, a friend of my wife,we also know one of the young girls that died in this crash, shocked right now.

freerover wrote:

"It was not owned by Kobe Bryant. Island Express Holding, a charter company which goes by IEX Holding, is owned by Phillip DiFiore, of Long Beach, and has been in operation since 2011. DiFiore also owns Island Express Helicopters, which he has operated since 1986. DiFiore and his companies could not be reached for comment. Island Express appears to have taken down its website and social media profiles after the crash."

It appears that IEX was doing executive charters with the S-76 as well as Catalina flights from next to the Queen Mary at Long Beach, Long Beach
airport is also nearby and Kobe's residence is just south of there in Newport Coast. IEX is likely the operator of Kobe's S-76 and as they use that model a lot there would be a good pool of pilots so Kobe was able to fly whenever he wanted. Did he have designated pilot(s) or just from the pool, who knows.

https://helihub.com/2017/11/23/evolux-p ... alifornia/

https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-br ... -76-2020-1

https://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/ko ... ew/google/

It will take a while for the official findings to be released but there are always lessons. The weather is being highlighted over and over. If it does get ruled as contributing factor, I wonder if "Get-There-Itis" played a part. Too many pilots get into bad situations when there is pressure to reach their destination.

Great analysis by Blancolirio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttx236mUIE

In his opinion, the pilot was attempting to backtrack out of deteriorating conditions.

He stated that a helicopter cannot simply stop and hover in IMC/IFR conditions because you need to see reference to the ground in order to hover.

32andBelow wrote:

It’s called pilotage. All VFR pilots use landmarks.

OK, I get that VFR relies on landmarks. But what's a typical AGL for helicopter VFR landmark navigation?

Because until the final climb, it looks like the helicopter was following 101 at extremely low AGL altitudes (138 ft AGL).

For example, at 17:44:13 UTC, the FR24 altitude was 1250 ft. The elevation at 34.1499, -118.6649 is 1112 ft. So it was only 138 ft AGL.

Canuck600 wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

Canuck600 wrote:

All that probably means that there helicopters are equipped for VFR only.

None of the LAPD's helicopters are IFR capable, save for the Bell 412, which is capable, but they may not have had the pilots that had a IFR certification.

Not many single engined helicopters are certified for IFR flight; the ones that are capable of it are all very recent designs, and certification of those started in 2016.

I thought there were a lot of single engine single pilot IFR machines in the medivac world in the states?

No, offhand, there are only two single engined helicopters certified for IFR flight by any regulatory agency; Leonardo's AW139 (as configured for the USN's trainer contract) which was the first one to be certified, and the Bell 407GXi. Both were certified after 2016.

Also, most medivac helicopters are of the twin engined variety.

Sadly a mix of 'get their itis' by a rich celebrity, a pilot who was too arrogant to consider he shouldn't have been operating with such limited visual conditions or too afraid to anger the customer, ATC that should have told the pilot the conditions were not suitable to operate a helicopter in, are all likely parts of this deadly crash taking the life of internationally known Kobe Bryant, one of his daughters and 7 others.

In all of the photos I have seen, the ceiling looks higher than the crash site, unless the ceiling lifted before photos were taken. So, it seems like the helicopter would had to have hit something higher first in the fog, maybe the ridge to the North and then crashed at a lower elevation. It would explain some of the eyewitness accounts.

B757capt wrote:

ATC recordings....

https://youtu.be/B0pQfgi9ZqU

Interesting that they never contacted SoCal after being handed off from Van Nuys ATC. It would be interesting to see they radar track overlaid on Google Maps to see how closely they were following the freeways.

United787 wrote:

In all of the photos I have seen, the ceiling looks higher than the crash site, unless the ceiling lifted before photos were taken. So, it seems like the helicopter would had to have hit something higher first in the fog, maybe the ridge to the North and then crashed at a lower elevation. It would explain some of the eyewitness accounts.

Who knows how much time between the crash and when the pics were taken. Fog and scud layers tend to burn off as the day progresses. Not surprising that the ceilings look a bit higher in images.

btfarrwm wrote:

B757capt wrote:

ATC recordings....

https://youtu.be/B0pQfgi9ZqU

Interesting that they never contacted SoCal after being handed off from Van Nuys ATC. It would be interesting to see they radar track overlaid on Google Maps to see how closely they were following the freeways.

"Helicopter 72EX, Ident"

That is SoCal responding to the helicopters check-in. Live ATC only is picking up one side of the conversation.

ltbewr wrote:

Sadly a mix of 'get their itis' by a rich celebrity, a pilot who was too arrogant to consider he shouldn't have been operating with such limited visual conditions or too afraid to anger the customer, ATC that should have told the pilot the conditions were not suitable to operate a helicopter in, are all likely parts of this deadly crash taking the life of internationally known Kobe Bryant, one of his daughters and 7 others.

Far too early to make statements like that. Plus, no fault should be placed on the passengers, its the PIC's responsibility to determine what is safe or not. Explaining its not possible to fly due to the weather or having to make a diversion and alternate transportation arrangements is a basic responsibility of any charter operator, fixed wing or helicopter no matter who the client is.

Tech question, does this model have any type of radar ?

I am just trying to wrap my head around why they would be flying in the canyons with fog all around.

do helicopters have CVR and CDR's?

The pilot, as well as the remainder of the nine victims have been identified. The pilot was 50 yrs old, was instrument-rated and also a flight-instructor with a good reputation according to these articles...

https://globintel.com/usa/ara-zobayan-bio-wiki-age/

https://hollywoodlife.com/feature/who-i ... d-3895747/

Would this helicopter require 2 pilots to fly in IFR conditions or is one acceptable?

ltbewr wrote:

Sadly a mix of 'get their itis' by a rich celebrity, a pilot who was too arrogant to consider he shouldn't have been operating with such limited visual conditions or too afraid to anger the customer, ATC that should have told the pilot the conditions were not suitable to operate a helicopter in, are all likely parts of this deadly crash taking the life of internationally known Kobe Bryant, one of his daughters and 7 others.

It's not ATC's job to evaluate meteorological conditions, it's the PICs.

bluejuice wrote:

It will take a while for the official findings to be released but there are always lessons. The weather is being highlighted over and over. If it does get ruled as contributing factor, I wonder if "Get-There-Itis" played a part. Too many pilots get into bad situations when there is pressure to reach their destination.

I was wondering the same thing especially when one has high level passengers on board.

I don't know the first thing about the capabilities of helos, other than what I've seen on TV. So pardon my ignorance, but my understanding is helos can fly forward, backward, hover, climb in place, etc. Obviously that differs based on weight and specific helo I'm sure, but that's my understanding of what they can do.

So if the pilot of a helo is flying toward low terrain and he realizes it, why not stop forward momentum as quick as possible to avoid a collision. Could then hover or even fly backwards until at a safe elevation.

Of course the pilot would need to be able to stop forward momentum in time, which may or may not be possible. Again, these are questions based on my ignorance. Just trying to understand different possibilities

My instructor once told me that one should know your regulations ( FARs) because one day they safe your ass. He should know that since he is highly experienced in charter ops.
One day your rich passenger might pressure you into something bad since the passenger has no ideas of the FARs and basically is a pedestrian when It comes to PIC decisions.
I’m not saying that it’s Kobe’s fault, I’m just saying whatever happened, the conditions where below my personal minimums and I would have decided as PIC for a no go! Especially with SVFR it seems the PIC used it in a “shortcut/ time saver” manner instead of its intended use!

And for IMC and helicopters, I image “just hovering” is easy to say for a non aviator! Once you are in IMC your senses can play you tricks especially if you change your movement drastically (forward acceleration into upward or stationary)
I had my interesting experience with a night VFR with partial instruments (failed attitude indicator) and I can tell you it’s crazy how your body interprets shifts in acceleration.
There is a reason why the PIC decided for SVFR instead of filling IFR plan. And in my view there was a poor judgement and usage of the SVFR regulation.
A mixture of external pressure (high profile pax want to get there, 8 pax vs 1 PIC) and poor knowledge of regulations it seems (scud running with SVFR)

I would think it was more of a choice to ignore regulations then a lack of knowledge of them.

I found publicly published granular FlightRadar24 data published here:
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/kobe ... ter-crash/

and used the ATSB KML Creator found here:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/utilities/atsb- ... nload.aspx

to create a granular KML of the flight. Here is what the last part looked like (please be patient as I find a site to host the image):

Very Detailed Eyewitness account of the accident

https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8

A dense fog delayed the final round of the PGA Tour event at Torrey Pines yesterday morning. Obviously the Van Nuys/Calabasas area is north of La Jolla, but players couldn’t see a tee shot 5 feet in front of them. I can’t imagine how difficult it would have been to pilot a helo in those conditions.

werdywerd wrote:

Very Detailed Eyewitness account of the accident

https://youtu.be/28QYy8lrww8

Indeed, the interview subject is a professional sound engineer, is a local very familiar with the vicinity of the crash, heard the last flight and the crash, and is wearing a TWA cap.

Not sure who could be a better witness.

shaner82 wrote:

I don't know the first thing about the capabilities of helos, other than what I've seen on TV. So pardon my ignorance, but my understanding is helos can fly forward, backward, hover, climb in place, etc. Obviously that differs based on weight and specific helo I'm sure, but that's my understanding of what they can do.

So if the pilot of a helo is flying toward low terrain and he realizes it, why not stop forward momentum as quick as possible to avoid a collision. Could then hover or even fly backwards until at a safe elevation.

Of course the pilot would need to be able to stop forward momentum in time, which may or may not be possible. Again, these are questions based on my ignorance. Just trying to understand different possibilities

All good questions and observations. For your first question, sure, seems obvious, if you're in a helo, just stop. Unfortunately its not really a possibility, as in minimum visibility, stopping usually takes longer then you might even notice the ground and an impending collision. Flightaware speed data can be a rough guide at best, especially with VFR aircraft, however the track data shows them traveling about 140-160 MPH which gives only seconds of reaction time even if you're just in straight and level flight. Additionally it looks as though they may have been in a turn, which can increase the pilots disorientation. Even for the most experienced pilots, once you get disoriented in the clouds, it can be almost impossible to recover. China Airlines 006 is an example of how a captain with 15,000 hours of flight time was spatially disoriented after the airplane entered clouds in an unusual attitude.

werdywerd wrote:

Very Detailed Eyewitness account of the accident

I am a bit confused as to why he thought the helicopter was hovering, as that doesn't seem to be supported by the flightradar24 data. The granular data I am looking at shows greater than 100knots over the last 5 minutes of flight. Some kind of acoustic illusion?

airplanecrazy wrote:

werdywerd wrote:

Very Detailed Eyewitness account of the accident

I am a bit confused as to why he thought the helicopter was hovering, as that doesn't seem to be supported by the flightradar24 data. The granular data I am looking at shows greater than 100knots over the last 5 minutes of flight. Some kind of acoustic illusion?

I have noticed when I hear planes or helicopters in fog or in cloud decks, there is a muffling sometimes. However, it could have been in a turn keeping the acoustics the same for him.

To answer why pilots follow the freeways, one facet is the noise corridor and the ridiculous number of helicopters in SoCal buzzing everyone’s houses whenever they want. Our house shakes at least once a day from somebody flying low, but a minimum 10 fly overhead daily. Most are sheriff, fire, medical and news near me.

In this case it’s a wealthy person saving some time by flying instead of driving to a business he built far from where he lives because he can. Then again, commuting by car that far frequently also greatly increases your chance of a fatal accident.

The “helicopter” episode of American Dad is on TBS right now. Too soon?

IFR for a lot of helicopters means "I follow roads."

casinterest wrote:

airplanecrazy wrote:

werdywerd wrote:

Very Detailed Eyewitness account of the accident

I am a bit confused as to why he thought the helicopter was hovering, as that doesn't seem to be supported by the flightradar24 data. The granular data I am looking at shows greater than 100knots over the last 5 minutes of flight. Some kind of acoustic illusion?

I have noticed when I hear planes or helicopters in fog or in cloud decks, there is a muffling sometimes. However, it could have been in a turn keeping the acoustics the same for him.

I think you might be correct about the turn. Here is my Google Earth approximation of the turn from the church parking lot: