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FlyKBHM
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:35 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:58 am

flybucky wrote:
NTSB Media Briefing by Jennifer Homendy from NTSB

((* Parties to the investigation and investigation groups named as typical for an NTSB investigation.))
* 2 Pratt & Whitney ((Canada PT6)) engines
* Asked public for photos of the weather in the area [email protected]
((* Drones being used to collect measurements.))
* FBI there to help collect evidence, no criminal investigation.
((* VFR from John Wayne (SNA) to just southeast of Burbank airport (BUR)))
((* Pilot requested Special VFR clearance to transit controlled airspace "at less than the basic VFR minimums of 1,000 ceiling and 3 miles visibility.))
* Circling ((for 12 minutes)) was to wait for SVFR approval.
((* Aircraft "transited Burbank and Van Nuys airspace at 1,400 feet."))
* Pilot requested flight following to Camarillo. (("but Southern California TRACON advised they were too low for flight following."))
* Pilot told ATC he was climbing to avoid cloud layer, no reply after that.
((* "Radar data indicates the helicopter climbed to 2,300 feet, then began a left descending turn."))
* Last radar contact 9:45am [matches ADS-B]
* Another press briefing tomorrow. ((monitor Twitter @NTSB_newsroom))
* NTSB will be on scene for 5 days ((to collect perishable evidence, not to determine the cause on scene)).

Q&A

((* Q:Was the helicopter going too fast? A: "We still need to verify that information."))
* What is flight following? radar assistance for the flight. (("and to help the pilot avoid traffic."))
((*Q: "Did anyone else report similar issues in this weather? A: That is part of our interview process and we'll be looking into that."))
((* Q: Should the pilot have been flying in the fog? A: We'll have to look at that as part of our investigation.))
((* NTSB on scene several hours this morning.))
* Debris field about 500-600 ft. Fuselage, main rotor, tail in separate places ((described as a piece of the tail section on one side of a vertical ridge, the main body of wreckage on the other of the ridge, and the main rotor about 300 feet beyond the fuselage.))
* No black box, no CVR, no FDR. (not required)
* Only an ipad for flight planning. ((using ForeFlight software in flight))
((* Q: Any chance of survival? A: Part of the investigation, "it was a pretty devastating accident scene."))
((* Q: Is 12 minutes normal hold for permission to proceed? A: Not unusual.))
((* Q: Conflicts with work of corner recovering bodies? A: None, working together on scene.))
((* Q: Weather investigator? A: Yes, meteorologist on NTSB staff.))
((* Q: All wreckage found in the same location? A: Referenced 500 - 600 feet debris field from previous question and response. Jason's interpretation of response: no separate debris fields as would be seen with a higher altitude in flight breakup.))
* Impact crater is 1085 ft above sea level


((End of NTSB brief. Followed by below selected comments from LA Sheriff:
* Sheriff's Office (SO) frustrated by drones overflying the site. Numerous people on foot intercepted trying to access the crash site over night. No arrests made, people turned away. SO patrolling the hillside on horseback and ATVs.
* LA County SO patrol helicopters out of Long Beach are not IFR equipped; won't fly with a ceiling of less than 2,000 feet.
* First human remains removed last night last night.
* Hillside is so steep that a roadway is being bulldozed for improved access. Access by hiking, lowering from helicopter, horseback, and ATV.
* NTSB reported pilot had over 8,200 hours of flight time.
* No announcement on public memorials for victims.))

Thank you Flybucky for the live notes. I re-listened to the NTSB briefing as covered by KTLA from their Facebook page and added to Flybucky's notes above in (( )).

KTLA briefing video: https://www.facebook.com/ktla5/videos/586170175556898/
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:00 am

Below is another graph plot of the FR24 granular data that I think shows the picture better. It's the last 60 seconds of data, starting from 17:44:34.250 UTC, which is about the time that it stopped following the road and started the final climb.

The climb goes pretty smoothly for the first 40 seconds. But in the final 20 seconds, things go haywire. The VSpeed, Ground Speed, and Track are very erratic over the final 20 seconds. VSpeed was -4000 to -5000 fpm for the last 9s.

I think the Altitude and even the Google Earth 3D plot is misleading because it looks smooth to the eye. But actually there were erratic fluctuations that indicate the flight was not in control the final 20 seconds.

So my current theory is that this was not an intentional descent to get below the fog. 1) the descent VSpeed is not smooth. 2) -4000 fpm does not seem intentional. 3) I'm guessing the fog level was very low, maybe only 1200 ft. Before the final climb, the heli was only 100-200 ft above the road. Van Nuys ATC said ceiling was 1100 ft. So it wouldn't make sense for them to try to get below the fog again.

Nor was it CFIT. I think something happened at -20s, causing the heli to lose control and quickly lose altitude. Possibly pilot disorientation.

Could be a mechanical issue, but I think that is less likely. It was climbing perfectly fine. And it has twin engines.

Image
Last edited by flybucky on Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
kayik
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:00 am

I am really sorry for everybody on that flight. What is the cosr of Garmin pilot for i-pad? 200 dollars? I sail and I have my charts on every device I have. I am having difficulties to comprehend this.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:02 am

jelpee wrote:
I did not see a response to another poster asking this question:

For an aircraft such as the S76 and for a celebrity client such as this, shouldn't they have had 2 pilots aboard? In my experience, most corporate clients require 2 engines and 2 pilots? I realize the S76 could be operated by 1 pilot, but it would have been an extra measure of safety to have another set of eyes, ears and hands in the cockpit.

Jehan

Although the S76 can be flown by 1 pilot it is not really designed for this.
I fly (as passenger) with the S76 for over 15 years and we always fly with 2 pilots as it is required for our company.
When there is thick fog we try to fly at a higher altitude and then reduce speed to minimum so we can slowly drop through the fog.
 
heyjoojoo
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:09 am

Do we know if this rotorcraft had CVR and FDR?
or is this an optional component that some do not have installed?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:14 am

I say this with respect for all involved here and as an opinion. But what also needs to be mentioned here is: what was Mr. Bryant's schedule? Was he late? Was there explicit or implicit undue pressure for the pilot to "perform" and get his entrusted client where he needed to be? A factor in this no doubt in my mind is that the pilot thought he could fly in this fog because he didn't want to believe he ever could not. In other words, he was psychologically tricked and pumped into thinking "he got this." As one poster alluded to above, the irony is that the crash site was also a good landing site. The weather here was THE culprit. Sad that pilot- experience doesn't say an unequivocal "NO to flight" under those conditions. RIP.
 
Bradlee102896
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 4:13 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:15 am

So my understanding is he was following Highway 101 and then became disoriented or something was right, so the pilot initiated a 180 degree turn to follow Highway 101 back from where he came from but halfway though the turn they impacted the terrain belly first?
 
Gtep
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:15 am

heyjoojoo wrote:
Do we know if this rotorcraft had CVR and FDR?
or is this an optional component that some do not have installed?


When it sold in 2015 it was up-fitted with a Fairchild A100S CVR. So assuming it wasn’t removed?
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:16 am

Revelation wrote:
I've seen too many big names die in helicopter crashes (Stevie Ray Vaughn came immediately to mind but https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-peop ... /reference lists many others with Bill Graham and Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha standing out to me) to make me think the helicopter is risky. I get it, the automobile has its risks as well, but when a helicopter crashes it's got pretty bad survive-ability.

I thought helicopter crash rates would be high too, but according to mxaxai's post, helicopter has less fatal accidents per flight hour than general aviation. (I'm not sure what Part 135 and 121 mean).

2017 numbers in the US:
0.59 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for helicopters
0.9355 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for general aviation
0.199 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for part 135 carriers*
0 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for part 121 carriers (0.05 in 2018)

* virtually all part 135 accidents are in the on-demand sector, while commuter services are almost as safe as part 121 airlines.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:20 am

heyjoojoo wrote:
Do we know if this rotorcraft had CVR and FDR?
or is this an optional component that some do not have installed?

Gtep wrote:
When it sold in 2015 it was up-fitted with a Fairchild A100S CVR. So assuming it wasn’t removed?

Do you have a source for the CVR?

In the NTSB media briefing today, they said they did not recover FDR or CVR because the helicopter didn't have them. Do you think NTSB just assumed there was no FDR and CVR based on the S-76B model? Did they not know about the up-fitted CVR? (genuine questions)
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2575
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:25 am

Looking at the map of 101 thru Calabasas there are 3 roads that form a narrow wye. A mile or so before this there is a narrow 2 way wye. If visibility was intermittent he could have followed the middle road of the wye, realizing it wasn't the 101 and saw the left road of Las Virgeness or could have seen Lost Hills going left and he thought he was at the earlier Wye where he was to go left.

Speaking of disorientation, I have been in whiteout conditions above timberline at Whistler, moving you had your balance and a sense of which was was up. Stop and it was crazy
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:27 am

Deanger wrote:
I'm curious why a pilot this experienced would tell ATC they were climbing to avoid a cloud layer and then stop the climb by choice... Assuming what the NTSB said about his final radio call, it would seem he WASN'T going to try to follow roads any more, wouldn't it?

That's why I don't think the pilot was trying to descend on purpose. It doesn't make any sense for him to do that. Fog level was probably around 1200 ft. I don't think it was CFIT.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1439861&p=21971313#p21971313
 
Karlsands
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash in

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:43 am

kayik wrote:
I am really sorry for everybody on that flight. What is the cosr of Garmin pilot for i-pad? 200 dollars? I sail and I have my charts on every device I have. I am having difficulties to comprehend this.

My basic version was 60-70 bucks a year , but then again on an iPad it would need to be hooked up to cellular or an ads-b receiver as well to do much at altitude
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5642
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:51 am

I don’t understand too low for flight following. Did the helicopter not have ADSB?
 
heyjoojoo
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:02 am

kayik wrote:
I am really sorry for everybody on that flight. What is the cosr of Garmin pilot for i-pad? 200 dollars? I sail and I have my charts on every device I have. I am having difficulties to comprehend this.


My guess is that this was some sort of mechanical issue.

The maneuvers that it did just didn't seem like it was CFIT.
 
Gtep
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:14 am

Gtep wrote:
When it sold in 2015 it was up-fitted with a Fairchild A100S CVR. So assuming it wasn’t removed?

Do you have a source for the CVR?

In the NTSB media briefing today, they said they did not recover FDR or CVR because the helicopter didn't have them. Do you think NTSB just assumed there was no FDR and CVR based on the S-76B model? Did they not know about the up-fitted CVR? (genuine questions)[/quote]

I tried posting my findings 5-6 hours ago (Screenshot) . For what ever reason Mods haven’t sent it through. Obviously me being “new” may have something to do with it? No offense taken nor should be received.

https://ibid.illinois.gov/item.php?id=123331

This was the listing that I found going through Illinois gov records. When a state sells something it’s public record. I figured I would find it. They attached (you can download) Named “ https://s3.amazonaws.com/ibidimages.inc ... LIST76.xls
 
Gtep
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:18 am

flybucky wrote:
heyjoojoo wrote:
Do we know if this rotorcraft had CVR and FDR?
or is this an optional component that some do not have installed?

Gtep wrote:
When it sold in 2015 it was up-fitted with a Fairchild A100S CVR. So assuming it wasn’t removed?

Do you have a source for the CVR?

In the NTSB media briefing today, they said they did not recover FDR or CVR because the helicopter didn't have them. Do you think NTSB just assumed there was no FDR and CVR based on the S-76B model? Did they not know about the up-fitted CVR? (genuine questions)



I also saw the NTSB briefing and found it strange that they mentioned no CVR? I can’t imagine that they would just assume? I mean every A/P that signed off on that bird most likely has been requested to give any details?
 
Canuck600
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:22 am

There are comments on PPRUNE that FlightRadar24 data is not reliable in that sort of terrain? Everybody here seems to treat FR24 data like it's gospel but I wonder?
 
cschleic
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:23 am

TYWoolman wrote:
I say this with respect for all involved here and as an opinion. But what also needs to be mentioned here is: what was Mr. Bryant's schedule? Was he late? Was there explicit or implicit undue pressure for the pilot to "perform" and get his entrusted client where he needed to be? A factor in this no doubt in my mind is that the pilot thought he could fly in this fog because he didn't want to believe he ever could not. In other words, he was psychologically tricked and pumped into thinking "he got this." As one poster alluded to above, the irony is that the crash site was also a good landing site. The weather here was THE culprit. Sad that pilot- experience doesn't say an unequivocal "NO to flight" under those conditions. RIP.


The question about potential get-there-itis is a good and fair one given the circumstances. Time will tell but it could have been a factor.

32andBelow wrote:
I don’t understand too low for flight following. Did the helicopter not have ADSB?


Could be due to terrain making radar coverage impossible in certain low level areas.
 
Gtep
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:26 am

Also in the equipment limit detail, it shows the CVR just under 4000 hrs. Needed a overhaul at 8,000 hrs. It would make no sense for Illinois to take it off.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8080
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:26 am

32andBelow wrote:
I don’t understand too low for flight following. Did the helicopter not have ADSB?


SoCal or the controller may not have ADS, just SSR and thus coverage blocked by terrain. Also, controllers can’t issue much to aircraft below the minimum terrain altitudes.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:37 am

[url]https://s318.photobucket.com/user/Silvio_45/media/calabasas_zpsa93bzipk.jpg.html][IMG]
I thought it was rougher terrain around the crash site. The contour indexed lines are at 420' maximum. It looks like the pilot climbed the last seconds to go above ceiling. They were at or around 1,350 feet when it came down. The VNY tower called a 30.01" reading (high pressure). It is possible the altimeter was not set and caused a deviation from SNA sea level. That would have a indicated altitude less than than actual altitude above sea level.
 
Chemist
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:49 am

I live in the area.
My theory is that the pilot flew into fog and could not stay below it. He climbed to get on top and became disoriented which would explain the last 20s of "flight". So not really CFIT in the traditional sense, rather flight into IMC and disorientation followed by plunging out the bottom of the cloud.

RIP. It's never that important to get somewhere to fly in weather conditions that aren't safe.
 
Deanger
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:51 am

Respectfully, while get-there-itis fits a lot of the information - it doesn’t seem to mesh with what was the last piece of known pilot interaction - which according to the NTSB was that the pilot was climbing to clear the fog (I don’t have the exact wording in front of me)

In other words, and incredibly well-trained IFR rated commercial helicopter pilot - communicated the intention to get out of the situation through a climb. He initiated a climb. And then - inexplicably - he dove. Out of control

Climbing like he was - I don’t think he suddenly thought he saw the ground and dove back into zero visibility. And the dive appears to be a loss of control of the aircraft.

What causes that: 1) Spatial Disorientation. 2) Failure of equipment 3) Medical event disables the pilot. 4) collision with something at 2150 ft.

If he didn’t radio that he was climbing, The CFIT possibility would be greater in my opinion. But I guess I’m asking here - am I putting too much stock in the pilot’s last words?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8080
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:00 am

Better question—how much hard IFR experience did the pilot have recently?
 
RightRudder
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:13 am

Does anyone know what the air pressure was at the time of departure? If the pilots had failed to set the altimeter with VNY tower (30.10"), that may explain a variation in the indicated altitude. Image
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15174
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:26 am

Deanger wrote:
Respectfully, while get-there-itis fits a lot of the information - it doesn’t seem to mesh with what was the last piece of known pilot interaction - which according to the NTSB was that the pilot was climbing to clear the fog (I don’t have the exact wording in front of me)

In other words, and incredibly well-trained IFR rated commercial helicopter pilot - communicated the intention to get out of the situation through a climb. He initiated a climb. And then - inexplicably - he dove. Out of control

Climbing like he was - I don’t think he suddenly thought he saw the ground and dove back into zero visibility. And the dive appears to be a loss of control of the aircraft.

What causes that: 1) Spatial Disorientation. 2) Failure of equipment 3) Medical event disables the pilot. 4) collision with something at 2150 ft.

If he didn’t radio that he was climbing, The CFIT possibility would be greater in my opinion. But I guess I’m asking here - am I putting too much stock in the pilot’s last words?

Get-there-itis would be the reason for the trip to begin with, or the reason not to turn back earlier. Not to disappoint the Mamba.

You also have a very experienced pilot AND a very seasoned primary. If you commute in a heli as a pax for years, you start to think anything is doable. And he’s a very strong motivator...

But I agree, if the climb is accurate, I still wonder if the final cause is CFIT.

Stress leads to sudden heart failure or stroke and the pilot was an older male.

People want to rule out mechanical because it’s a twin, but a control Input failure wouldn’t care, or a tail rotor failure is recoverable but maybe not in that situation.
 
User avatar
tenHangar
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:44 am

TYWoolman wrote:
I say this with respect for all involved here and as an opinion. But what also needs to be mentioned here is: what was Mr. Bryant's schedule? Was he late? Was there explicit or implicit undue pressure for the pilot to "perform" and get his entrusted client where he needed to be?
My understanding is that they had to be on schedule for the two girls' basketball game.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:08 am

****Pure theory here: Wondering if that area is known for drone flying (?) Particularly on that particular morning, I could see someone wanting to record the intense fog event, that to my understanding, wasn't a regular occurrence. Police said there were people tryng to get to the crash site early on. My investigative mind would seek to determine if those people went there to collect any evidence of some sort? Pure theory****
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:28 am

32andBelow wrote:
I don’t understand too low for flight following. Did the helicopter not have ADSB?


ADS-B is actually a ground-based system. The position info is GPS-based, but that's then transmitted between aircraft and ground towers. If there's a mountain between an aircraft and any in-range tower, that aircraft is not going to be seen on radar.

Normally this is not a big problem because towers are strategically placed to minimize dead spots like this, and where there are dead spots, they're at very low altitudes that aircraft would not often be flying at. (And if they were, they wouldn't usually be requesting flight following at those altitudes anyway.) That said, I have had my flight following terminated in the southwest USA more than a few times due to mountains in between myself and the tower, despite the planes I fly having ADS-B and flying at closer to 10,000 feet. You get to know the areas where flight following is not going to be available due to terrain.

You can see a map of ADS-B altitudes here: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/

Though in my experience that map is a little optimistic.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:38 am

Without looking too closely at the FR24 data, I wonder if the pilot got himself into a vortex ring state, where the forward momentum of the helicopter is reduced and a high power setting of the engines in a climb causes the rotor to stall.

Purely speculation, but it would explain a rapid climb followed by rapid descent. Typically helicopter pilots are trained to recognize this condition and know to reduce power to fly out of it, but there have been plenty of instances where it was not recognized and resulted in a crash.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:50 am

NW747-400 wrote:
Without looking too closely at the FR24 data, I wonder if the pilot got himself into a vortex ring state, where the forward momentum of the helicopter is reduced and a high power setting of the engines in a climb causes the rotor to stall.

Purely speculation, but it would explain a rapid climb followed by rapid descent. Typically helicopter pilots are trained to recognize this condition and know to reduce power to fly out of it, but there have been plenty of instances where it was not recognized and resulted in a crash.

No. VRS happens with little to no forward airspeed. He had plenty of speed.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1448
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash in

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:58 am

Karlsands wrote:
kayik wrote:
I am really sorry for everybody on that flight. What is the cosr of Garmin pilot for i-pad? 200 dollars? I sail and I have my charts on every device I have. I am having difficulties to comprehend this.

My basic version was 60-70 bucks a year , but then again on an iPad it would need to be hooked up to cellular or an ads-b receiver as well to do much at altitude


Is the question based on a supposition that it might have averted a speculative cause like controlled flight into terrain or disorientation?

Garmin Pilot, like other GPS based programs and devices, is a flight planning and navigation aid. While I could see it being useful for knowing in general what terrain hazards were in the area such as for planning your minimum altitude during certain segments of the flight, I don't imagine it would realistically take precedence over the dedicated instruments such as for altitude and vertical speed, and any safety systems the helicopter might have had like TCAS.

I will, of course, defer to the input of pilots who may have experience contradicting my presumption.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5642
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:08 am

spacecadet wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I don’t understand too low for flight following. Did the helicopter not have ADSB?


ADS-B is actually a ground-based system. The position info is GPS-based, but that's then transmitted between aircraft and ground towers. If there's a mountain between an aircraft and any in-range tower, that aircraft is not going to be seen on radar.

Normally this is not a big problem because towers are strategically placed to minimize dead spots like this, and where there are dead spots, they're at very low altitudes that aircraft would not often be flying at. (And if they were, they wouldn't usually be requesting flight following at those altitudes anyway.) That said, I have had my flight following terminated in the southwest USA more than a few times due to mountains in between myself and the tower, despite the planes I fly having ADS-B and flying at closer to 10,000 feet. You get to know the areas where flight following is not going to be available due to terrain.

You can see a map of ADS-B altitudes here: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/

Though in my experience that map is a little optimistic.

I would just think that the LA basin would have radar to the ground. Maybe I’m wrong. Looks like flight radar had enough GBTs around for the full track.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:08 am

Do helicopters have TCAS? The pilot got lost. They should have landed in Glendale and taken limos.
 
gloom
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:08 am

KCaviator wrote:
Look at the flight data. There was an abrupt climb immediately prior to the crash. I’m guessing the pilot realized the severity of the situation too late.


Not true. It seems actually opposite.

From FR24:
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-c ... Data-1.jpg

Cheers,
Adam
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:48 am

I am still feeling numb over the news and refused to believe he is gone for good with others. Really shocked, can't really express my words after reading the news early 9am yesterday here in Malaysia. My brother got me hooked with LA Lakers/ NBA when he bought me adidas Kobe back in high school back in 2001. RIP #ForeverMamba
 
Dodak
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:40 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:56 am

NTSB said they found an iPad running foreflight and that the tail was on one side of the hill and the fuselage on the other with the rotor farther ahead of the fuselage. My dumb speculation is that he could have tried to climb away from the terrain, ended up hitting the tail and tumbled down the other side, perhaps it would explain the climb and subsequent drop!? However it doesn’t seem to match the Flightradar24 or FlightAware data which shows them heading straight into the side of the hill... people said those ads-b trackers are not gospel but could it be that far off?
 
Dodak
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:40 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:34 am

Dodak wrote:
NTSB said they found an iPad running foreflight and that the tail was on one side of the hill and the fuselage on the other with the rotor farther ahead of the fuselage. My dumb speculation is that he could have tried to climb away from the terrain, ended up hitting the tail and tumbled down the other side, perhaps it would explain the climb and subsequent drop!? However it doesn’t seem to match the Flightradar24 or FlightAware data which shows them heading straight into the side of the hill... people said those ads-b trackers are not gospel but could it be that far off?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 7978d8.jpg

Found this image from a fellow at a different forum created by putting the ads-b information on google maps(or earth) seems it could make sense that they lost the tail going over the hill and hit the other side on the side of the helicopter which I believe I read somewhere that it was a possibility...
 
THS214
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:13 am

Dodak wrote:
NTSB said they found an iPad running foreflight and that the tail was on one side of the hill and the fuselage on the other with the rotor farther ahead of the fuselage. My dumb speculation is that he could have tried to climb away from the terrain, ended up hitting the tail and tumbled down the other side, perhaps it would explain the climb and subsequent drop!? However it doesn’t seem to match the Flightradar24 or FlightAware data which shows them heading straight into the side of the hill... people said those ads-b trackers are not gospel but could it be that far off?


With the time, speed, climb and drop altogether as well as a relatively small area of debris that scenario didn't happen. Hit to the ground at high speed explains that some debris continued another 500 ft.
 
Bradlee102896
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:53 am

ikramerica wrote:
Deanger wrote:
Respectfully, while get-there-itis fits a lot of the information - it doesn’t seem to mesh with what was the last piece of known pilot interaction - which according to the NTSB was that the pilot was climbing to clear the fog (I don’t have the exact wording in front of me)

In other words, and incredibly well-trained IFR rated commercial helicopter pilot - communicated the intention to get out of the situation through a climb. He initiated a climb. And then - inexplicably - he dove. Out of control

Climbing like he was - I don’t think he suddenly thought he saw the ground and dove back into zero visibility. And the dive appears to be a loss of control of the aircraft.

What causes that: 1) Spatial Disorientation. 2) Failure of equipment 3) Medical event disables the pilot. 4) collision with something at 2150 ft.

If he didn’t radio that he was climbing, The CFIT possibility would be greater in my opinion. But I guess I’m asking here - am I putting too much stock in the pilot’s last words?

Get-there-itis would be the reason for the trip to begin with, or the reason not to turn back earlier. Not to disappoint the Mamba.

You also have a very experienced pilot AND a very seasoned primary. If you commute in a heli as a pax for years, you start to think anything is doable. And he’s a very strong motivator...

But I agree, if the climb is accurate, I still wonder if the final cause is CFIT.

Stress leads to sudden heart failure or stroke and the pilot was an older male.

People want to rule out mechanical because it’s a twin, but a control Input failure wouldn’t care, or a tail rotor failure is recoverable but maybe not in that situation.


I’m starting to wonder if the pilot having a medical problem is what actually led the crash. Lets say he had a heart attack, that could explain the turn away from the freeway he was following and could explain the sudden climb followed by sudden drop to the ground, because he was incapacitated. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:02 pm

flybucky wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I've seen too many big names die in helicopter crashes (Stevie Ray Vaughn came immediately to mind but https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-peop ... /reference lists many others with Bill Graham and Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha standing out to me) to make me think the helicopter is risky. I get it, the automobile has its risks as well, but when a helicopter crashes it's got pretty bad survive-ability.

I thought helicopter crash rates would be high too, but according to mxaxai's post, helicopter has less fatal accidents per flight hour than general aviation. (I'm not sure what Part 135 and 121 mean).

2017 numbers in the US:
0.59 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for helicopters
0.9355 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for general aviation
0.199 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for part 135 carriers*
0 fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours for part 121 carriers (0.05 in 2018)

* virtually all part 135 accidents are in the on-demand sector, while commuter services are almost as safe as part 121 airlines.


General Aviation includes lots of low time pilots doing it for fun. Helicopter flying is extremely expensive so it's much more professional flying. Basically you must compare to part 135 rather than GA.
 
cschleic
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:23 pm

It'll be interesting to see, particularly since there were younger passengers on board, if any of them were texting or contacting friends / colleagues during the flight about what was happening. Of course, not necessarily during the last 20 seconds but it could give some insight.
 
Gtep
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:37 pm

cschleic wrote:
It'll be interesting to see, particularly since there were younger passengers on board, if any of them were texting or contacting friends / colleagues during the flight about what was happening. Of course, not necessarily during the last 20 seconds but it could give some insight.


Thought the same thing. Those kids were snap chatting and/or, videoing/pictures. Regardless of when, it will at least show the conditions.
 
airplanecrazy
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 8:09 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:40 pm

flybucky wrote:
Below is another graph plot of the FR24 granular data that I think shows the picture better. It's the last 60 seconds of data, starting from 17:44:34.250 UTC, which is about the time that it stopped following the road and started the final climb.

The climb goes pretty smoothly for the first 40 seconds. But in the final 20 seconds, things go haywire. The VSpeed, Ground Speed, and Track are very erratic over the final 20 seconds. VSpeed was -4000 to -5000 fpm for the last 9s.

I think the Altitude and even the Google Earth 3D plot is misleading because it looks smooth to the eye. But actually there were erratic fluctuations that indicate the flight was not in control the final 20 seconds.

So my current theory is that this was not an intentional descent to get below the fog. 1) the descent VSpeed is not smooth. 2) -4000 fpm does not seem intentional. 3) I'm guessing the fog level was very low, maybe only 1200 ft. Before the final climb, the heli was only 100-200 ft above the road. Van Nuys ATC said ceiling was 1100 ft. So it wouldn't make sense for them to try to get below the fog again.

Nor was it CFIT. I think something happened at -20s, causing the heli to lose control and quickly lose altitude. Possibly pilot disorientation.

Could be a mechanical issue, but I think that is less likely. It was climbing perfectly fine. And it has twin engines.

Image


Good analysis. Was the helicopter spinning at the end? I zoomed in on the Google Earth plot near the end of the flight and I see the track going backward two times. Does anyone know where the GPS antenna is on that helicopter?
 
Karlsands
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash in

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:42 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Karlsands wrote:
kayik wrote:
I am really sorry for everybody on that flight. What is the cosr of Garmin pilot for i-pad? 200 dollars? I sail and I have my charts on every device I have. I am having difficulties to comprehend this.

My basic version was 60-70 bucks a year , but then again on an iPad it would need to be hooked up to cellular or an ads-b receiver as well to do much at altitude


Is the question based on a supposition that it might have averted a speculative cause like controlled flight into terrain or disorientation?

Garmin Pilot, like other GPS based programs and devices, is a flight planning and navigation aid. While I could see it being useful for knowing in general what terrain hazards were in the area such as for planning your minimum altitude during certain segments of the flight, I don't imagine it would realistically take precedence over the dedicated instruments such as for altitude and vertical speed, and any safety systems the helicopter might have had like TCAS.

I will, of course, defer to the input of pilots who may have experience contradicting my presumption.

Absolutely, it’s a supplementary tool, however the tools foreflight and garmin flight offer when connected to ads b is quite mind blowing (for the private pilot etc)
 
airbazar
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:46 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Looking at the map of 101 thru Calabasas there are 3 roads that form a narrow wye. A mile or so before this there is a narrow 2 way wye. If visibility was intermittent he could have followed the middle road of the wye, realizing it wasn't the 101 and saw the left road of Las Virgeness or could have seen Lost Hills going left and he thought he was at the earlier Wye where he was to go left.

Speaking of disorientation, I have been in whiteout conditions above timberline at Whistler, moving you had your balance and a sense of which was was up. Stop and it was crazy


In my younger years I did quite a lot of mountaineering. One time we were descending down a glacier as clouds were moving up. When it caught up to us it was so dense I couldn't see my partner less than 100ft at the other end of the rope. We couldn't tell which side was up or down. The safe thing to do was to stop and wait it out until there was enough clearing to see where we were going, so as not to risk falling into a crevasse.

My suspicion here is that they encountered an unexpectedly low fog bank and tried to climb up for safety and turn around to get back to the last known safe place but with zero visibility the pilot misjudged the turn and went wider than he should. He had to descend from the fog in order to see the road again but he did that a little too soon.
 
THS214
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:47 pm

cschleic wrote:
It'll be interesting to see, particularly since there were younger passengers on board, if any of them were texting or contacting friends / colleagues during the flight about what was happening. Of course, not necessarily during the last 20 seconds but it could give some insight.


Excellent point! Thanks.
 
Gtep
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:12 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
airplanecrazy wrote:
flybucky wrote:
Below is another graph plot of the FR24 granular data that I think shows the picture better. It's the last 60 seconds of data, starting from 17:44:34.250 UTC, which is about the time that it stopped following the road and started the final climb.

The climb goes pretty smoothly for the first 40 seconds. But in the final 20 seconds, things go haywire. The VSpeed, Ground Speed, and Track are very erratic over the final 20 seconds. VSpeed was -4000 to -5000 fpm for the last 9s.

I think the Altitude and even the Google Earth 3D plot is misleading because it looks smooth to the eye. But actually there were erratic fluctuations that indicate the flight was not in control the final 20 seconds.

So my current theory is that this was not an intentional descent to get below the fog. 1) the descent VSpeed is not smooth. 2) -4000 fpm does not seem intentional. 3) I'm guessing the fog level was very low, maybe only 1200 ft. Before the final climb, the heli was only 100-200 ft above the road. Van Nuys ATC said ceiling was 1100 ft. So it wouldn't make sense for them to try to get below the fog again.

Nor was it CFIT. I think something happened at -20s, causing the heli to lose control and quickly lose altitude. Possibly pilot disorientation.

Could be a mechanical issue, but I think that is less likely. It was climbing perfectly fine. And it has twin engines.

Image


Good analysis. Was the helicopter spinning at the end? I zoomed in on the Google Earth plot near the end of the flight and I see the track going backward two times. Does anyone know where the GPS antenna is on that helicopter?



Typically on the tail rotor driveshaft cover.
 
User avatar
SuperGee
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 9:42 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:29 pm

Here is a photo of the fog at Lookout Point on Stunt Road, Calabasas at 9:22 AM, about 23 minutes or so before the crash. It looks to be fairly close to the crash site. The links show the Google maps location of Stunt road and Flightaware path of the flight:

https://twitter.com/ChristianDMejia/sta ... 2973858816

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stunt ... 18.6558707

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72 ... 0126/1708Z
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