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flybucky
Posts: 376
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:44 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Everything in aviation history says inadvertent entry into IMC with subsequent loss of control resulting in collision with the terrain. Unless, of course, the physical evidence turns up a tail risk like sudden incapacitation or mechanical failure prior to impact. Very low probability event.

Then, the loudspeaker start closing in, the ground comes and goes and it’s time to “fess up. He likely wasn’t confident of climbing into the clouds and flying IFR, even if he could pull off a pop-up clearance. The operation was a single-pilot VFR operation. the controller asks, “can you maintain visual until xxxx altitude?” Oops, I have to admit I can’t or do I just climb to avoid the ground. It’s a tricky situation. Once, in cloud, it was game over, too late to get a clearance and unsalvagable.

Once he was caught in "no man's land", what were his options? Could he have climbed above the clouds with instruments only? Or is that difficult to do in a heli?

If not, could he have simply landed the heli in a field next to the highway?
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:03 am

avi8tir wrote:
NTSB confirms no CVR. Per post above, it did when it was sold from the state of Illinois. Why would you ever remove that? Whether it's used or not is another story.

Money. If you remove it you dont have to maintain it.
Phrogs Phorever
 
dragon6172
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:20 am

flybucky wrote:
Once he was caught in "no man's land", what were his options? Could he have climbed above the clouds with instruments only? Or is that difficult to do in a heli?

If not, could he have simply landed the heli in a field next to the highway?

If inadvertently into the fog, with loss of site with the ground, the only option is a climb and then once stable and established on instruments and clear of terrain and obstacles, contact ATC for IFR clearance. The old Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

If still VFR and in contact with the ground, slow down and land, slow down and turn around, or you could purposely establish a climb and enter IMC conditions and follow the same as the previous paragraph.
Phrogs Phorever
 
dragon6172
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 am

This is interesting
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
Phrogs Phorever
 
heyjoojoo
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:06 am

Why did the aircraft do a bit of circling before proceeding?
 
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SuperGee
Posts: 99
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:07 am

dragon6172 wrote:
avi8tir wrote:
NTSB confirms no CVR. Per post above, it did when it was sold from the state of Illinois. Why would you ever remove that? Whether it's used or not is another story.

Money. If you remove it you dont have to maintain it.



Here is the link for the 01/28/20 NTSB update briefing:

https://www.facebook.com/ktla5/videos/i ... ted_videos

She quite strongly called out the FAA for not implementing two recommendations they had made regarding helicopters in the past.

- Some years ago, NTSB had recommended that the FAA mandate all USA registered existing and new turbine powered rotor craft certificated for 6 or more passengers be equipped with Terrain Awareness and Avoidance System (TAWS). FAA did not issue that mandate and the NTSB has closed that response as unacceptable. She didn't offer an opinion yet on whether TAWS would have helped in this situation.

- NTSB also recommended some years ago to the FAA that they mandate that all rotorcraft operating under parts 91 and 135 have both FDRs and CDRs and the FAA also failed to issue that mandate. She said that the NTSB also closed that response as unacceptable. This aircraft was operating under part 135.

She also pointed out that the helicopter descended at over 2000' per minute and had a high energy impact. She said that means that it took about a minute for the helicopter to complete that descent.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:12 am

heyjoojoo wrote:
Why did the aircraft do a bit of circling before proceeding?

Waiting clearance thru the Burbank and Van Nuys airspace due to other traffic at those airports
Phrogs Phorever
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:12 am

heyjoojoo wrote:
Why did the aircraft do a bit of circling before proceeding?


Waiting for the SVFR clearance thru BUR, then VNY.
 
heyjoojoo
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:12 am

dragon6172 wrote:
heyjoojoo wrote:
Why did the aircraft do a bit of circling before proceeding?

Waiting clearance thru the Burbank and Van Nuys airspace due to other traffic at those airports

Ah, thanks for explaining that.
 
heyjoojoo
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:19 am

Very interesting perspective

https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:20 am

It's amazing how much people will pay to save 1hr on the LA freeways...the helicopter flight looks like it would have taken 30-45 minutes (if completed) and the time estimate for the drive at 9AM on Sunday (from Google Maps) is 1h 15m to 1h 45m.
 
ColdWhiskey
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:21 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:32 am

dragon6172 wrote:
enilria wrote:

Neither of the scenarios given in that article (retreating blade stall or low rotor rpm) would apply to this accident.


Why do you say that a ‘retreating blade stall’ could not apply to this accident?

Retreating blade stalls happen at high speed and are more likely with high gross weight, high density altitude, or abrupt control inputs, such as an abrupt pull up or sudden steep turn. A helicopter’s retreating blade stall characteristics are one of the primary factors for establishing it’s Vne speed.

If the pilot had lost spatial orientation or had suddenly seen terrain ahead, or had got a terrain warning, he could have reacted with an abrupt pull up, that triggered the stall and subsequent altitude loss and roll to the left.
 
Gtep
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:07 am

dragon6172 wrote:
avi8tir wrote:
NTSB confirms no CVR. Per post above, it did when it was sold from the state of Illinois. Why would you ever remove that? Whether it's used or not is another story.

Money. If you remove it you dont have to maintain it.


More like a liability. Hate to say it, but why set your company for a death sentence with the pilot last words?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:14 am

Gtep wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
avi8tir wrote:
NTSB confirms no CVR. Per post above, it did when it was sold from the state of Illinois. Why would you ever remove that? Whether it's used or not is another story.

Money. If you remove it you dont have to maintain it.


More like a liability. Hate to say it, but why set your company for a death sentence with the pilot last words?

Also VIP clients in range of mic may not appreciate being recorded.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
cessna2
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:25 am

The fact they missed clearing the hill by 20-30 feet is unfortunate. A sad day for the LA community and the world.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 252
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:36 am

ColdWhiskey wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
enilria wrote:

Neither of the scenarios given in that article (retreating blade stall or low rotor rpm) would apply to this accident.


Why do you say that a ‘retreating blade stall’ could not apply to this accident?

Retreating blade stalls happen at high speed and are more likely with high gross weight, high density altitude, or abrupt control inputs, such as an abrupt pull up or sudden steep turn. A helicopter’s retreating blade stall characteristics are one of the primary factors for establishing it’s Vne speed.

If the pilot had lost spatial orientation or had suddenly seen terrain ahead, or had got a terrain warning, he could have reacted with an abrupt pull up, that triggered the stall and subsequent altitude loss and roll to the left.

Retreating blade stall doesn’t cause a sudden/massive climb/drop in a helicopter. It’s not like stalling an airplane. When you experience RBS, only a portion of the rotor system is stalled, typically causing a slight pitch up (and slight roll) which causes the speed to decay and the RBS to subside on its own, or you just lower the collective a little and slow down. It’s 1) hard to get into an RBS situation in the first place and 2) a fairly self-correcting one. Not one that would cause a big climb followed by a big descent.

RBS is just not a big deal and probably not relevant to this incident.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:43 am

cessna2 wrote:
The fact they missed clearing the hill by 20-30 feet is unfortunate. A sad day for the LA community and the world.


There is nothing in my view that suggests how missing this hill would have put this craft definitively in the clear. It seems like it was destined for certain catastrophy at that velocity and weather characteristic.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:00 am

flybucky wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Everything in aviation history says inadvertent entry into IMC with subsequent loss of control resulting in collision with the terrain. Unless, of course, the physical evidence turns up a tail risk like sudden incapacitation or mechanical failure prior to impact. Very low probability event.

Then, the loudspeaker start closing in, the ground comes and goes and it’s time to “fess up. He likely wasn’t confident of climbing into the clouds and flying IFR, even if he could pull off a pop-up clearance. The operation was a single-pilot VFR operation. the controller asks, “can you maintain visual until xxxx altitude?” Oops, I have to admit I can’t or do I just climb to avoid the ground. It’s a tricky situation. Once, in cloud, it was game over, too late to get a clearance and unsalvagable.

Once he was caught in "no man's land", what were his options? Could he have climbed above the clouds with instruments only? Or is that difficult to do in a heli?

If not, could he have simply landed the heli in a field next to the highway?


Climb to “on top”; if you have the wits about you to transition to instruments and climb. ‘Fessing up means telling ATC you need a clearance and you f’d it up—tough call in today’s world where you’re going to be answering for it. That assumes the wit to make the transition which isn’t easy if you’re a non-current IFR pilot. The temptation to think, “If I can just get a glimpse of the ground, it’ll be okay.” That leads to rushed turns, descents barely contained. I lost a acquaintance in an A-10 accident—four climbed into cloud in Norway, three broke out on top. They found him crashed into the wall of a fiord. Lost sight of his leader, peeled away, didn’t make the transition to the gauges.

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:02 am

airplanecrazy wrote:
All, I have reason to believe that the FlightRadar granular altitude data I have been using is unadjusted (the helicopter takes off from under the airport). I found another site that states that the appropriate correction is +225' (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/26-jan-kobe-bryant-fatal-helicopter-crash/msg73351/#msg73351). When I make this change my flight track now matches that in that liveatc post, but I am not 100% sure that it is the appropriate correction. Here are the adjusted KML and updated images.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ai5ul4veNOgHhYllSYGlasMMWfyUDg?e=4SgxHy

Image

Going over the mountain pass (with much more clearance than shown in my previous rendering):
Image


On the radio VNY said the altimeter was 30.16, if you add (30.16-29.92)*1000=240 ft to the Flightaware altitude (which is pressure altitude) you get the altitude indicated on the altimeter in the cockpit.

The closest METAR to the accident at VNY was METAR KVNY 261751Z 00000KT 2 1/2SM HZ OVC013 12/09 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP212 T01220089 10122 20111 51010=

That is close enough to ISA at VNY considering the VNY field elevation, it will only change pressure altitude by a few feet to get true altitude. So the Flightaware altitude does not need to be changed to help with the visualization nearer to impact.

Around the time they departed SNA the METAR was METAR KSNA 261653Z 06005KT 4SM BR OVC010 14/10 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP220 T01440100=. So there maybe 100 ft to add to the pressure altitude with the small ISA variation.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
NIKV69
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:12 am

Wow just wow
https://abc7ny.com/5886910/?ex_cid=TA_W ... tent+(Feed)&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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zeke
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Climb to “on top”; if you have the wits about you to transition to instruments and climb. ‘Fessing up means telling ATC you need a clearance and you f’d it up—tough call in today’s world where you’re going to be answering for it. That assumes the wit to make the transition which isn’t easy if you’re a non-current IFR pilot. The temptation to think, “If I can just get a glimpse of the ground, it’ll be okay.” That leads to rushed turns, descents barely contained. I lost a acquaintance in an A-10 accident—four climbed into cloud in Norway, three broke out on top. They found him crashed into the wall of a fiord. Lost sight of his leader, peeled away, didn’t make the transition to the gauges.

GF


Looking at the previous flights to and from CMA, they flew along much the same route not much above 2500 ft. Maybe their plan was to climb to 2500 ft ASAP, and fly to CMA where the Wx was better than the basin.

Image

Wx at CMA was improving with the cloud base lifting


METAR KCMA 261755Z 03003KT 4SM HZ OVC017 15/11 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP233 T01500106 10150 20117 53017=
SPECI KCMA 261705Z 08007KT 4SM HZ OVC016 14/11 A3017 RMK AO2 T01390106=
METAR KCMA 261655Z 08008KT 4SM HZ OVC014 14/11 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP225 T01390106=
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
cuisinart
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:59 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Wow just wow
https://abc7ny.com/5886910/?ex_cid=TA_W ... tent+(Feed)&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


Here's the direct video:
https://twitter.com/ABC7Veronica/status ... 8278906880

The reporter says you hear the helicopter, a boom, then silence, but I hear a crack just before the boom. It's difficult to make out the sound of the helicopter with all of the audio compression distortion from that video.

Link to raw audio:
http://nautilus-integration.com/img/crash.zip
 
cuisinart
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:52 am

Ran out of editing time, sorry for the double.

There are a few distinct sounds to the crash, first the sound of the rotors then what sounds like two impacts, followed by one final impact which is probably some other part, possibly the rotor hitting the ground.
Image
 
jfeger
Posts: 3
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:06 am

cuisinart wrote:
Ran out of editing time, sorry for the double.

There are a few distinct sounds to the crash, first the sound of the rotors then what sounds like two impacts, followed by one final impact which is probably some other part, possibly the rotor hitting the ground.
Image

Sorry, I don't know why images aren't working. The above link is to an annotated audio spectrogram.


In the link to twitter you provided, someone else posted another Nest video, asking for it to be FWD to the NTSB. The audio is much cleaner, but doesn't appear to be close enough to capture the "crack" I hear in the first

https://t.co/pYwnVVC03U?amp=1
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:25 am

btfarrwm wrote:
It's amazing how much people will pay to save 1hr on the LA freeways...the helicopter flight looks like it would have taken 30-45 minutes (if completed) and the time estimate for the drive at 9AM on Sunday (from Google Maps) is 1h 15m to 1h 45m.


People pay extra money just to get in a shorter line at Disney Land.... We have shown as a society there is a premium for anything to get whatever it is "sooner"

but having said that Im surprised with the surplus of money Kobe has at his disposal, he did not use a company that can get him from point A to B with an IFR flightplan. Sounds like Island Helicopters or whatever its called did not have the means to get that done which is very odd considering how calculated Kobe Bryant has shown himself to be over his lifestyle, You would think he would spend 5 extra minutes to make sure that the chopper he is flying his family around in is the best of the best in 2020. From what it looks like right now it was the best of the best 7+ years ago....not so much right now. Not trying to make this political but Im sure Trump isnt flying around in helicopters that are not IFR capable or with pilots that are not IFR current.

I get kobe isnt a pilot but the media portrays him as an individual who would take the time to get familiar with what is going above and beyond for safety over whats "enough" to get a helicopter charted to fly him around. Dont take what im saying out of context but from what we all know here about VFR/IFR rules I doubt any of us would be signing off for a pilot that wants to fly SVFR to get us to our destination when we have the money to avoid that option. I also do not know what happened and its all speculation at this point but from everything we know so far I am shocked at what we do know about this charter company and how they operate flying around iconic celebrities. Apparently they flew Kawhi Leonard of the LA Clippers around too. Still in shock about all of this
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:08 am

Did Kobe not have a helipad at his home? I'm just wondering why they departed from SNA. I thought the point of having your own helicopter would be to significantly decrease your travel time by being able to takeoff and landing from almost anywhere. Having to drive to and from an airport would seem to defeat much of that benefit.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:27 am

zeke wrote:
On the radio VNY said the altimeter was 30.16, if you add (30.16-29.92)*1000=240 ft to the Flightaware altitude (which is pressure altitude) you get the altitude indicated on the altimeter in the cockpit.

Around the time they departed SNA the METAR was METAR KSNA 261653Z 06005KT 4SM BR OVC010 14/10 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP220 T01440100=. So there maybe 100 ft to add to the pressure altitude with the small ISA variation.

Thanks for the explanation. I get the 30.16 calculation for 240 ft.

But I don't understand the calculation for SNA 30.18 --> 100 ft? Isn't (30.18-29.92)*1000 = 260 ft?
 
THS214
Posts: 370
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 am

SocalApproach wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
It's amazing how much people will pay to save 1hr on the LA freeways...the helicopter flight looks like it would have taken 30-45 minutes (if completed) and the time estimate for the drive at 9AM on Sunday (from Google Maps) is 1h 15m to 1h 45m.


People pay extra money just to get in a shorter line at Disney Land.... We have shown as a society there is a premium for anything to get whatever it is "sooner"

but having said that Im surprised with the surplus of money Kobe has at his disposal, he did not use a company that can get him from point A to B with an IFR flightplan. Sounds like Island Helicopters or whatever its called did not have the means to get that done which is very odd considering how calculated Kobe Bryant has shown himself to be over his lifestyle, You would think he would spend 5 extra minutes to make sure that the chopper he is flying his family around in is the best of the best in 2020. From what it looks like right now it was the best of the best 7+ years ago....not so much right now. Not trying to make this political but Im sure Trump isnt flying around in helicopters that are not IFR capable or with pilots that are not IFR current.

I get kobe isnt a pilot but the media portrays him as an individual who would take the time to get familiar with what is going above and beyond for safety over whats "enough" to get a helicopter charted to fly him around. Dont take what im saying out of context but from what we all know here about VFR/IFR rules I doubt any of us would be signing off for a pilot that wants to fly SVFR to get us to our destination when we have the money to avoid that option. I also do not know what happened and its all speculation at this point but from everything we know so far I am shocked at what we do know about this charter company and how they operate flying around iconic celebrities. Apparently they flew Kawhi Leonard of the LA Clippers around too. Still in shock about all of this


That is a big question. Many people who get always what they want become blind. So they want the pilot who can get the job done. Those who refuse to fly because the weather is not good enough, who want to go IFR, won't fly them again but the pilot who can get the job done. That's why VFR and scud running. And then one too many times.

Those who rent the ride don't know and then they think that the pilot who always get the job done is a great pilot. They never know the danger involved.

This accident is a great example of this. Extremely poor weather, flying low and fast in a mountainous area. A receipt for disaster. But Kobe didn't know. "My pilot can get us there, he is so good." Just one too many times.

For the pilot, once you are THE pilot who can get the job done, a celebrity appreciates it, its really hard to not deliver. You've done it before so you can do it again. Just that this time it was one too many times.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:57 am

cuisinart wrote:
Here's the direct video:
https://twitter.com/ABC7Veronica/status ... 8278906880

The reporter says you hear the helicopter, a boom, then silence, but I hear a crack just before the boom. It's difficult to make out the sound of the helicopter with all of the audio compression distortion from that video.

According to the timestamp on the Nest video, the crash happened around 9:45:40.5 am PST. NTSB said the crash location was at 1085 ft altitude.

The last granular ADS-B was 9:45:33.7 am PST. The Pressure Altitude was 1350 ft, VSpeed -4864 fpm. Using a Pressure Altitude calculator, the True Altitude is PA + 220 ft = 1570 ft.

Putting it all together, the delta between those 2 data points is 40.5-33.7=6.8s, 1085-1570=-485 ft. That gives a VSpeed of 485/6.8*60 = -4279 fpm. That's a realistic number that seems to correlate all the data.

The only question is why there was a 6.8s gap in the ADS-B. Perhaps once the heli descended below the peaks, the ADS-B receivers were not able to get reception.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:19 am

NTSB Media Briefing from Tue Jan 28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv_i7VIS7UU

* Recovered ipad and cellphone.
* Flew flight path with drones based on ADS-B data.
* NTSB is done on site.
* At 2300 ft, lost communications with ATC.
* Descent rate over 2000 fpm.
* No TAWS onboard.
* In 2005, NTSB issued recommendation to FAA that all rotorcraft under Part 91 and 135 to be equipped with CVR and FDR. FAA did not implement that recommendation.
* Flight was operating under 135 charter.
* This is the last press conference for NSTB.
* Will have preliminary report in 10 days, final report in 12-18 months.

Q&A

* Missed clearing the mountain by 20-30 ft.
* Located all the significant components. Indicates that the helicopter was intact upon crash.
* Many outcroppings in the canyons.
* Very common for pilots to request SVFR.
* It did not have a terrain warning system.
* Pilot was trying to climb out of the cloud layer at the time.
* CVR and FDR would have helped tremendously in the investigation.
* Too soon to determine if pilot was in control of the helicopter.

LA Sheriff
* Officially announced 4 of the victims. [Presumably the others are still being identified.]
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:36 am

airplanecrazy wrote:
All, I have reason to believe that the FlightRadar granular altitude data I have been using is unadjusted (the helicopter takes off from under the airport). I found another site that states that the appropriate correction is +225' (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/26-jan-kobe-bryant-fatal-helicopter-crash/msg73351/#msg73351). When I make this change my flight track now matches that in that liveatc post, but I am not 100% sure that it is the appropriate correction.

Thank you for doing that. You are right, FR24/ADS-B altitude is Pressure Altitude based on standard 29.92 inHg (similar to Flight Level). It is up to the recipient to convert that to True Altitude (MSL) using local pressure. (See this FR24 blog post)

The METAR for the closest airport and time was Van Nuys (KVNY) 9:51am PST (17:51Z), altimeter 30.16 inHg. Using a Pressure Altitude calculator, that results in a +220 ft adjustment. That gives a much more reasonable AGL altitude while the pilot was following 101. Without the adjustment, some places it seemed like the heli was less than 100 ft AGL! But with the adjustment, it would have been about 300+ ft AGL.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:47 am

I have identified the exact location of the crash site: 34.1369, -118.6924, which matches the 1085 ft elevation given by NTSB. Compare it to the image by ABC7.

It is consistent with the ADS-B path (adjusted +225 ft for local pressure 30.16 inHg):
Image
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:28 pm

cuisinart wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Wow just wow
https://abc7ny.com/5886910/?ex_cid=TA_W ... tent+(Feed)&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter


Here's the direct video:
https://twitter.com/ABC7Veronica/status ... 8278906880

The reporter says you hear the helicopter, a boom, then silence, but I hear a crack just before the boom. It's difficult to make out the sound of the helicopter with all of the audio compression distortion from that video.

Link to raw audio:
http://nautilus-integration.com/img/crash.zip

Here is the location that audio is recorded
https://www.google.com/maps/place/4304+ ... 18.7016795
Phrogs Phorever
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:47 pm

dragon6172 wrote:
Here is the location that audio is recorded
https://www.google.com/maps/place/4304+ ... 18.7016795

That Nest audio location is very close:

Image
 
KCaviator
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:15 pm

gloom wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
Look at the flight data. There was an abrupt climb immediately prior to the crash. I’m guessing the pilot realized the severity of the situation too late.


Not true. It seems actually opposite.

From FR24:
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-c ... Data-1.jpg

Cheers,
Adam


Yeah, for whatever reason this data is different than what I previously saw. Still appears to be CFIT, resulting from spatial disorientation.
Last edited by KCaviator on Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KCaviator
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:18 pm

Just hearing that this helicopter didn’t have EGPWS/TAWS? Unbelievable. Superstars, VIPs, millionaires, etc need to be more aware of what they’re flying in and whom they’re flying with.

Flying low level + fog + mountainous/hilly terrain + lack of terrain awareness warning system = exactly what the result was.

Wow.
 
dragon6172
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:35 pm

ColdWhiskey wrote:
Why do you say that a ‘retreating blade stall’ could not apply to this accident?

Retreating blade stalls happen at high speed and are more likely with high gross weight, high density altitude, or abrupt control inputs, such as an abrupt pull up or sudden steep turn. A helicopter’s retreating blade stall characteristics are one of the primary factors for establishing it’s Vne speed.

If the pilot had lost spatial orientation or had suddenly seen terrain ahead, or had got a terrain warning, he could have reacted with an abrupt pull up, that triggered the stall and subsequent altitude loss and roll to the left.


You're right, it could be a factor in the last second. Somewhere between the end of the Flightradar24 data and the crash site pin in the below image. Unplanned IMC, gets some spatial-D, descending accelerating left hand turn, comes out of the clouds with a windscreen full of mountain and makes a huge control input? Doubtful it was recoverable by then anyhow, so that is why I say RBS doesn't apply.

Image



My take on this is they went into the cloud layer/fog in the top right of the above image. The first slight left turn isn't to follow the highway, it is the first inadvertent turn, the onset of spatial-D. Pilot recovers wings level, continues climb. A slight LH turn again begins. Upon reaching 2000 feet the pilot makes a quick input to stop the climb. Only 15-20 seconds from this point until impact. I think this is the final force trim input, ends up being a descending accelerating LH turn.


Image
All conjecture on my part.
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dragon6172
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:47 pm

flybucky wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
Here is the location that audio is recorded
https://www.google.com/maps/place/4304+ ... 18.7016795

That Nest audio location is very close:

Image


Here is another.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1312649 ... a=!3m1!1e3

https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/12 ... 8744446976

The fog covered hills in the background of this video are one valley south of the impact valley. Where the solar farm is in this image.

Image
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BakerDill
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:08 pm

Here's the location of the second Twitter nest video:

https://goo.gl/maps/PzfKGGJwvhq4Poz57

Based on the sound on these videos, the various witness accounts claiming the helicopter "hovered" or "flew slowly at 4-5 mph" can be dismissed. Clearly a flyover at speed and then crash.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:54 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
but having said that Im surprised with the surplus of money Kobe has at his disposal, he did not use a company that can get him from point A to B with an IFR flightplan. Sounds like Island Helicopters or whatever its called did not have the means to get that done which is very odd considering how calculated Kobe Bryant has shown himself to be over his lifestyle, You would think he would spend 5 extra minutes to make sure that the chopper he is flying his family around in is the best of the best in 2020. From what it looks like right now it was the best of the best 7+ years ago....not so much right now. Not trying to make this political but Im sure Trump isnt flying around in helicopters that are not IFR capable or with pilots that are not IFR current.

I get kobe isnt a pilot but the media portrays him as an individual who would take the time to get familiar with what is going above and beyond for safety over whats "enough" to get a helicopter charted to fly him around. Dont take what im saying out of context but from what we all know here about VFR/IFR rules I doubt any of us would be signing off for a pilot that wants to fly SVFR to get us to our destination when we have the money to avoid that option. I also do not know what happened and its all speculation at this point but from everything we know so far I am shocked at what we do know about this charter company and how they operate flying around iconic celebrities. Apparently they flew Kawhi Leonard of the LA Clippers around too. Still in shock about all of this

The LA Times article interviewed Kobe's previous pilot and he suggested the reason they don't fly IFR is that such a routing would take them far off the desired track due to the complex, busy LA airspace. In essence it would be counter to the time vs money tradeoff the helo makes because it would greatly expand the time factor. In hindsight, though, we can see the advantage of such a plan.

I wonder if a member here can share what the IFR flight plan woul d look like for SNA-CMA.

flybucky wrote:
* Pilot was trying to climb out of the cloud layer at the time.

How can they know that? The data shows a strong descent shortly before the end, and they say they don't have CVR/FDR to fall back on.
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
but having said that Im surprised with the surplus of money Kobe has at his disposal, he did not use a company that can get him from point A to B with an IFR flightplan. Sounds like Island Helicopters or whatever its called did not have the means to get that done which is very odd considering how calculated Kobe Bryant has shown himself to be over his lifestyle, You would think he would spend 5 extra minutes to make sure that the chopper he is flying his family around in is the best of the best in 2020. From what it looks like right now it was the best of the best 7+ years ago....not so much right now. Not trying to make this political but Im sure Trump isnt flying around in helicopters that are not IFR capable or with pilots that are not IFR current.

I get kobe isnt a pilot but the media portrays him as an individual who would take the time to get familiar with what is going above and beyond for safety over whats "enough" to get a helicopter charted to fly him around. Dont take what im saying out of context but from what we all know here about VFR/IFR rules I doubt any of us would be signing off for a pilot that wants to fly SVFR to get us to our destination when we have the money to avoid that option. I also do not know what happened and its all speculation at this point but from everything we know so far I am shocked at what we do know about this charter company and how they operate flying around iconic celebrities. Apparently they flew Kawhi Leonard of the LA Clippers around too. Still in shock about all of this

The LA Times article interviewed Kobe's previous pilot and he suggested the reason they don't fly IFR is that such a routing would take them far off the desired track due to the complex, busy LA airspace. In essence it would be counter to the time vs money tradeoff the helo makes because it would greatly expand the time factor. In hindsight, though, we can see the advantage of such a plan.

I wonder if a member here can share what the IFR flight plan woul d look like for SNA-CMA.

flybucky wrote:
* Pilot was trying to climb out of the cloud layer at the time.

How can they know that? The data shows a strong descent shortly before the end, and they say they don't have CVR/FDR to fall back on.


I don’t know what a helo IFR plan would look like, but I have several SNA to VNY flights over 30 minutes in a jet
 
heyjoojoo
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Likely, the human factor portion of it is going to be a huge contributing part.....the pilot likely got disoriented when not interpreting his instruments correctly, or following incorrect information from his senses. The brain is always going to do its best to tell you which way is up, down left turn, right turn...etc.. Believing your instruments and ignoring your senses isn't easy...... He was visual and trying to stay visual... If he suddenly went into clouds with zero visibility, that is a difficult transition from outside to inside to the instruments.... Stress and the sudden Oh Sh"t feeling of entering the clouds by accident would make interpreting the instruments even tougher.... He painted himself into a corner and knew it which is why he likely climbed and began the left turn..... then began a steep descent in that turn because his brain was saying "your level." but, in fact they were descending...... The ADSB data showed the descent being erratic, which indicates he is fighting between believing the instruments or what his senses are telling him.......

it's the human factors element that is at play here. Likely a perfect example of spacial disorientation. Pilot probably but likely reacted to his senses and not the instruments, which lead to loss of control....I hear that even experienced pilots struggle with this at times.

Sadly. The pilot.
 
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I don’t know what a helo IFR plan would look like, but I have several SNA to VNY flights over 30 minutes in a jet

Indeed, I'm not sure that's relevant since we see the helo could do max 180 mph at best and that's giving it all the beans. It'd be hard to sequence that into a flow filled with bizjets, regionals, domestics, etc.

Is it allowed to file a "dummy" IFR flight plan just to see what the system would generate?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:40 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
It's amazing how much people will pay to save 1hr on the LA freeways...the helicopter flight looks like it would have taken 30-45 minutes (if completed) and the time estimate for the drive at 9AM on Sunday (from Google Maps) is 1h 15m to 1h 45m.

For people who make that kind of money, it's really not any different that us regular folk paying for a Uber instead of taking the bus.
 
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:43 pm

heyjoojoo wrote:
Likely, the human factor portion of it is going to be a huge contributing part.....the pilot likely got disoriented when not interpreting his instruments correctly, or following incorrect information from his senses. The brain is always going to do its best to tell you which way is up, down left turn, right turn...etc.. Believing your instruments and ignoring your senses isn't easy...... He was visual and trying to stay visual... If he suddenly went into clouds with zero visibility, that is a difficult transition from outside to inside to the instruments.... Stress and the sudden Oh Sh"t feeling of entering the clouds by accident would make interpreting the instruments even tougher.... He painted himself into a corner and knew it which is why he likely climbed and began the left turn..... then began a steep descent in that turn because his brain was saying "your level." but, in fact they were descending...... The ADSB data showed the descent being erratic, which indicates he is fighting between believing the instruments or what his senses are telling him.......

it's the human factors element that is at play here. Likely a perfect example of spacial disorientation. Pilot probably but likely reacted to his senses and not the instruments, which lead to loss of control....I hear that even experienced pilots struggle with this at times.

Sadly. The pilot.

I suspect a lot of high net wealth individuals are now calling their aviation contacts and inquiring about installation of EGPWS/TAWS into their aircraft.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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cedarjet
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
I suspect a lot of high net wealth individuals are now calling their aviation contacts and inquiring about installation of EGPWS/TAWS into their aircraft.

...which would have made no difference in a loss of control scenario such as Kobe’s
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
RJ
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:52 pm

First, I’d like to offer my condolences, thoughts and prayers to all involved in this tragic event.

I hate to speculate and will let the NTSB do its job and trust that they will come to a proper conclusion. That being said, I’d like to add to the discussion if for nothing else, educational purposes. I keep looking at the charts and graphs provided within this thread and I’ve been puzzled by the left turn and descent into the hill. One possible explanation would be a ‘graveyard spiral’.
Even if that turns out not to be the case, it’s a serious reminder of what can happen when you push the limits of VFR and don’t leave yourself a way out other than having to enter IMC conditions whether you are prepared or not.

RJ
 
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enilria
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:07 pm

dragon6172 wrote:
This is interesting
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko

Excellent video. Making pretty clear it was not CFID. Still not sure why the copter fell out of the sky at 2100'. Loss of control/stall or mechanical failure?
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:22 pm

In the Nest videos there is audible rotary blade noise that becomes deeper. To any familiar, is this a doppler effect or indicative of excessive speed, abrupt change in aircraft handling.........???
 
dragon6172
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:42 pm

enilria wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
This is interesting
https://youtu.be/XSHpbGhy3Ko

Excellent video. Making pretty clear it was not CFID. Still not sure why the copter fell out of the sky at 2100'. Loss of control/stall or mechanical failure?

Loss of situational awareness/spatial disorientation it would appear
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