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airplanecrazy
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 8:09 am

Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:23 am

For what it's worth, I created my rev3 version reconstruction of the crash based upon information gleaned from the NTSB update.

Image

https://youtu.be/2tVngcxaADA
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:51 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
For what it's worth, I created my rev3 version reconstruction of the crash based upon information gleaned from the NTSB update.

Nice. There's your explanation of why it seemed to make a sharper left turn at the end. It was because the angle changed after impact (of course no way for you to know that before the NTSB update).
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:01 pm

Video of the flames immediately after the crash, taken by the mountain bikers on the tail rotor side of the trail. It doesn't really show anything new though.

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video/4 ... r-crashes/
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:33 pm

I think this will be my last attempt at my amateur reconstruction of the crash, at least until we get new information. This reconstruction now has an animated helicopter using the X-Plane simulator and my representation of the fog bank.

Image

https://youtu.be/WirfErQb-sg
 
RightRudder
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:16 am

airplanecrazy wrote:
I think this will be my last attempt at my amateur reconstruction of the crash, at least until we get new information. This reconstruction now has an animated helicopter using the X-Plane simulator and my representation of the fog bank.

Image

https://youtu.be/WirfErQb-sg


Great video! The data you provided indicates the altitude dramatically increasing right where a utility wire crosses the 101. Not sure how high but it does cross the freeway. It is where Crummer Cyn. Rd., Mureau Rd., Calabasas Rd., and the 101 all are. In addition, the 2018 Woolsey Fire crossed the 101 at Crummer Cyn Rd. Construction may have been repairing the poles and lines. I speculate the helicopter clipped that line. It is the only utility line in that 4 mile stretch were things started going badly.
From Calabasas Pkwy to Las Virgenes Rd., the elevation dips 200 feet in elevation. It's also possible a colder Ventura coast air/fog was wedged down from a warmer SF valley. I don't have any WX data but a high to low pressure system from Ventura might have also contributed to a lower fog level. The pilot might have thought he had more separation from the road than he actually did. .
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:58 am

airplanecrazy wrote:
I think this will be my last attempt at my amateur reconstruction of the crash, at least until we get new information. This reconstruction now has an animated helicopter using the X-Plane simulator and my representation of the fog bank.

wow, these reconstructions keep getting better, top notch work!

I had some questions for my own learning:

How did you generate the x-plane path? Were you able to directly import the kml into x-plane? Did you have to manually specify the roll angle?

I noticed you credited adsb exchange. Did they provide better ADS-B data than FR24?
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 pm

flybucky wrote:
wow, these reconstructions keep getting better, top notch work!

Thanks!

flybucky wrote:
How did you generate the x-plane path? Were you able to directly import the kml into x-plane?


A long answer to a short question. Bottom line, it was a fair amount of work and analysis.

I first integrated and time re-sequenced the ADS-B data from fr24 high granularity and a file sent to me by wiedkopf at ADS-B Exchange. I did this re-sequencing by sorting on the lat/longs because the time stamps are not reliable. I then picked good representative sample points where the speed was consistent with surrounding values (so that I wasn't using a data element with stale speed data - see my previous posts for a discussion of that issue). The results was a file that had lat, long, adjusted altitude (adding 175' to ADS-B alt such that the max AMSL was 2300' + 20m), and speed. I then added on 5 data points that came from my Google Earth Studio reconstruction of the last 5 seconds after the last ADS-B data point. In the reconstructed data I assumed a speed of 161 knots and added 20m to altitude. Finally, I took the assembled data into a CSV file and fed that into KML_csv2fdr.py https://opengeoxplane.net/fdr_tools/ (BTW: this was a bit of a challenge because I discovered the software isn't compatible with the window manager in Fedora 31, so I had to run the software using TWM in a VNC and I had to run it with Python2). KML_csv2fdr.py generated the FDR file that I then fed into X-Plane to replay the flight. <phew>

Now I am sure you are asking, why did I add an additional 20m to the altitude I fed into X-Plane?? The X-Plane scenery I am using does not have nearly as good DTED data as Google Earth and if I used the correct altitude profile I hit the earth well before the correct lat/long point (I hit the ridge before it). It turns out that the impact point in the scenery I am using is about 20m higher than in real life. Thus, if I wanted to hit the earth at the right lat/long I had to be 20m higher.

flybucky wrote:
Did you have to manually specify the roll angle?

X-Plane generated the roll angle. I used the X-Plane generated roll angle in my Google Earth Studio reconstruction. I also now realize that I didn't look at the roll angle for the last moments of flight and it is over the 63 degrees I said in the video.

flybucky wrote:
I noticed you credited adsb exchange. Did they provide better ADS-B data than FR24?


Wiedkopf informs me that the timestamps in ADS-B exchange are assigned at the server and are thus more consistent than fr24. fr24 had substantially more data points, however, especially at the end. After I created the video I also received an ADS-B dump from Opensky-network (very generous of them to accept my request). It turns out, though, that their data runs out about 5 minutes before the end of the flight. From their data, though, I was able to verify that the helicopter transponder was not sending GPS altitude after they entered the San Fernando Valley.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:59 pm

This simulation is harrowing. And the more puzzled I am that the pilot didn't trust the instruments. Hey, you're in a bank. Hey, your heading is changing rapidly.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
NorbertoChez
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:12 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
I think this will be my last attempt at my amateur reconstruction of the crash, at least until we get new information. This reconstruction now has an animated helicopter using the X-Plane simulator and my representation of the fog bank.

Image

https://youtu.be/WirfErQb-sg



That's extremely impressive. good job.
 
WIederling
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:17 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
This simulation is harrowing. And the more puzzled I am that the pilot didn't trust the instruments. Hey, you're in a bank. Hey, your heading is changing rapidly.


Habitual lock in?
Always visual, never looked at his instrument for a long, long time?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:51 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
This simulation is harrowing. And the more puzzled I am that the pilot didn't trust the instruments. Hey, you're in a bank. Hey, your heading is changing rapidly.


Habitual lock in?
Always visual, never looked at his instrument for a long, long time?


But still... when your artificial horizon is sideways, this should trigger a response... but I've experienced it myself in my digital armchair FlightGear experience: I'm fixating on the wrong instruments (e.g. ILS crosshairs and speed), and I disregard the artificial horizon... whoopsie, too steep a bank and my approach is all messed up.

I also thought of somatosensoric illusion, given the tighter and tighter turn.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
WIederling
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:12 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I also thought of somatosensoric illusion, given the tighter and tighter turn.

if my assumption is correct
sabotaged by his inner ear.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
I also thought of somatosensoric illusion, given the tighter and tighter turn.

if my assumption is correct
sabotaged by his inner ear.

After JFK Jr augered in off Nantucket we all wrote "if only he hired a professional pilot".

Here poor Kobe hired a guy who was not just a professional pilot but also a certified flight instructor, instruments.

So tragic.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
WIederling
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
I also thought of somatosensoric illusion, given the tighter and tighter turn.

if my assumption is correct
sabotaged by his inner ear.

After JFK Jr augered in off Nantucket we all wrote "if only he hired a professional pilot".

Here poor Kobe hired a guy who was not just a professional pilot but also a certified flight instructor, instruments.

So tragic.

You kindly hinting that I am completely off with my guess ? :-))
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:05 pm

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
if my assumption is correct
sabotaged by his inner ear.

After JFK Jr augered in off Nantucket we all wrote "if only he hired a professional pilot".

Here poor Kobe hired a guy who was not just a professional pilot but also a certified flight instructor, instruments.

So tragic.

You kindly hinting that I am completely off with my guess ? :-))

No, sorry, didn't mean to leave that impression.

I was trying to say hiring a professional pilot isn't a guarantee of a better outcome.

They too can be fooled by their inner ear if they aren't focusing on what the instruments are telling them.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
airplanecrazy
Posts: 76
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:12 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
flybucky wrote:
Did you have to manually specify the roll angle?

X-Plane generated the roll angle. I used the X-Plane generated roll angle in my Google Earth Studio reconstruction. I also now realize that I didn't look at the roll angle for the last moments of flight and it is over the 63 degrees I said in the video.



Looking at this some more, I now believe that KML_csv2fdr.py generated the roll angle. X-Plane is just showing what it would look like. Sorry I gave you wrong info.
 
WIederling
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
They too can be fooled by their inner ear if they aren't focusing on what the instruments are telling them.


switching hats. some can't do it.
kind of a "getthereitis".

I've seen this in the wet sailing domain.
some can't make the decision when busy with one objective like readying mooring lines
or making intricate knots into same to step back from that activity to turn to a now more
urgent task like fending of some other boat or the landing stage.
Same for car accidents.
There is a point where you no longer have a chance to avoid
the accident but you would have a good chance for choosing a more benign path
_if_ you can manage the retarget.
Murphy is an optimist
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:15 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
Looking at this some more, I now believe that KML_csv2fdr.py generated the roll angle. X-Plane is just showing what it would look like. Sorry I gave you wrong info.

No problem, I am just impressed at the work you put in to gather so many data sources!
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:23 pm

NTSB Preliminary Report released: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=MA

Although it doesn't seem to have any new information since the Investigate Update from a week ago Feb 7.
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:13 am

OK, I know it's enough already, but I made another version of my helicopter crash reconstruction :) I have been learning how to generate better clouds and scenery in X-Plane, and I thought the improvements were enough to warrant another version. Just don't click on the link if you had enough of this subject!

https://youtu.be/6M2YVuKgwBM
Image
 
mzlin
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:20 am

airplanecrazy wrote:
OK, I know it's enough already, but I made another version of my helicopter crash reconstruction :) I have been learning how to generate better clouds and scenery in X-Plane, and I thought the improvements were enough to warrant another version. Just don't click on the link if you had enough of this subject!


Impressive work on the simulation. The theory of the pilot losing situational awareness while trying to program a navigation computer makes sense.
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:36 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
I have been learning how to generate better clouds and scenery in X-Plane, and I thought the improvements were enough to warrant another version.

Looks scarily realistic.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:54 am

LA Times is now reporting that pilot had a 2015 violation by FAA for flying VFR in poor visibility:

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ore-flying
 
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zeke
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:54 am

SuperGee wrote:
LA Times is now reporting that pilot had a 2015 violation by FAA for flying VFR in poor visibility:

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ore-flying


Just for clarification part 135 helicopter VFR only requires 0.5sm, however in class C & D controlled airspace like over LAX it is 6 times higher at 3 sm, basically more to help tower controllers to see the aircraft.

The article makes this distinction unclear. The reason for SVFR on the day was for this reason, the visibility in the control zone was 2.5 sm, below the 3.0 sm in a control zone, however above normal helicopter VFR.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:25 pm

SuperGee wrote:
LA Times is now reporting that pilot had a 2015 violation by FAA for flying VFR in poor visibility:

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ore-flying


In the article they cited Zoey Tur , who I've met. She was the news helicopter pilot covering the infamous OJ's white Bronco freeway chase. Quite a story.
 
Stickpusher
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:32 pm

mzlin wrote:
airplanecrazy wrote:
OK, I know it's enough already, but I made another version of my helicopter crash reconstruction :) I have been learning how to generate better clouds and scenery in X-Plane, and I thought the improvements were enough to warrant another version. Just don't click on the link if you had enough of this subject!


Impressive work on the simulation. The theory of the pilot losing situational awareness while trying to program a navigation computer makes sense.


The simulation already convinced me that this was spatial disorientation, the detail of the pilot's looking down to the console tends to add to that.

Years ago I was flying an NDB procedure at OXF in a Cardinal, and crossing the beacon caught a glimpse through the solid cloud of the airport below, just a momentary flash through a tiny gap, of lots of parked aircraft on grass. I involuntarily swung to look that way (the teaching is never to do this, not ever) and I never flew a procedure so trusting of the instruments as a result, it was quite a fight to ignore the senses. The sudden glance aside had thrown out my sense of balance and it took a lot of effort to overcome that. I was newly qualified IFR at the time, rookie mistake, but so easy to make after over an hour in solid IMC.

Coupled with an involuntary control input I can easily imagine the pilot losing the picture for a moment, and at low altitude too there's not much margin for recovery.

A recent post here cites a 2015 VFR/IMC violation which, if it's the tip of an iceberg as these things can often be, suggests that the pilot was laying himself open to situations exactly like the one you've simulated so well, playing against the odds. There was a signifcant discrepancy between the controller estimate of ceiling, 1100ft, and his claim of being Victor Mike at 1500. Sobering stuff.

One thing I'd add is that close to terrain the ceiling is almost never uniform due to air over the topography, so depending on what the winds up at 1500-2000 were doing that day it may have been that the ceiling was very variable at the altitudes he was flying. Kinda hard to simulate though!
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:40 pm

Stickpusher wrote:

The simulation already convinced me that this was spatial disorientation, the detail of the pilot's looking down to the console tends to add to that.



You might be interested in my most recent analysis.



https://youtu.be/v2V7cUoA_UA

Image
 
IADFCO
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:29 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
Stickpusher wrote:

The simulation already convinced me that this was spatial disorientation, the detail of the pilot's looking down to the console tends to add to that.



You might be interested in my most recent analysis.
[...snip...]



I'm a bit puzzled by the relationship between "g" numbers and roll angle. The g's seem low. For a 45 deg roll angle I would expect something between 1.2 and 1.4 for a coordinated turn (I realize that this is unlikely to be a coordinated turn), and not much influence of flight path angle between a 20 deg descent and a 20 deg climb, and presumably somewhat larger angles. Sources are Figs. 1 and 7 of NASA TP-1773 (sorry, I don't know how to post a pdf, but the entire report is downloadable here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=1981 ... ion%7CNACA).

I'm an engineer, not a pilot, but I would think that looking at the artificial horizon would be the first thing to do once visibility is lost, and instruments (if functioning properly) would show clearly that the aircraft is not wings level. I wouldn't venture a guess, without careful calculations, on g's as perceived by the pilot, as they may be significantly different from what onboard accelerometers could register.

That's why I would keep an open mind on the possibility of mechanical failure, for example in the control mixing and the swashplate actuation, such that the pilot did try to take the appropriate corrective actions, but the aircraft did not respond properly. Unfortunately the preliminary NTSB report did not provide any useful information from this point of view.
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:21 pm

IADFCO wrote:
airplanecrazy wrote:
Stickpusher wrote:

The simulation already convinced me that this was spatial disorientation, the detail of the pilot's looking down to the console tends to add to that.



You might be interested in my most recent analysis.
[...snip...]



I'm a bit puzzled by the relationship between "g" numbers and roll angle. The g's seem low. For a 45 deg roll angle I would expect something between 1.2 and 1.4 for a coordinated turn (I realize that this is unlikely to be a coordinated turn), and not much influence of flight path angle between a 20 deg descent and a 20 deg climb, and presumably somewhat larger angles. Sources are Figs. 1 and 7 of NASA TP-1773 (sorry, I don't know how to post a pdf, but the entire report is downloadable here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=1981 ... ion%7CNACA).

I'm an engineer, not a pilot, but I would think that looking at the artificial horizon would be the first thing to do once visibility is lost, and instruments (if functioning properly) would show clearly that the aircraft is not wings level. I wouldn't venture a guess, without careful calculations, on g's as perceived by the pilot, as they may be significantly different from what onboard accelerometers could register.

That's why I would keep an open mind on the possibility of mechanical failure, for example in the control mixing and the swashplate actuation, such that the pilot did try to take the appropriate corrective actions, but the aircraft did not respond properly. Unfortunately the preliminary NTSB report did not provide any useful information from this point of view.


I've decided to pull the video until I do a more through validation that the Tacview tool I am using to calculate the g force is accurate. Thank you for your engineering critique!
 
Vladex
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:38 pm

I am debating some people about wheether the helicopter pilot was circling because of the fog or because of the traffic? I am thinking fog because of how long he circled but others say pilot is faulted because he flew into the fog after routine holding for traffic.
 
flybucky
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:26 am

Vladex wrote:
I am debating some people about wheether the helicopter pilot was circling because of the fog or because of the traffic? I am thinking fog because of how long he circled but others say pilot is faulted because he flew into the fog after routine holding for traffic.

You mean when he was circling over Glendale? That was waiting for ATC clearance, not fog.

You can read the ATC transcripts: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... ant-crash/

Burbank airport tower: Helicopter 2EX, Burbank tower. Burbank altimeter: 30.19. Burbank Class Charlie Surface area is IFR; say intentions.
Helicopter N72EX: … Maintain special VFR. Transition on the 101 westbound.
Burbank tower: Helicopter 2EX. Hold outside Burbank Class Charlie airspace. I have an aircraft going around.
Helicopter N72EX: 2EX, holding.
[Five seconds later]
Burbank tower: It’s going to be a little bit. I have a citation on a niner mile final and then go around that I just had … is going to be turning base to file in about three minutes.
Helicopter: Okay, we’ll continue holding. 2EX.
Burbank tower: NEcho2Ex, and for your planning purposes, you can expect to transition to the north side of the airport. I just spoke with Van Nuys [airport] on the line, and they’ve got multiple IFR departures coming off of runway 16, so you can expect to follow the 5 north and cross that way.
Helicopter: 2Ex. No problem.
[Three seconds later.]
Burbank tower: 317P Burbank tower. You can expect a few minutes; I got a special VFR helicopter I need to get to transitioning. He’s been holding for about 15 minutes. … Northwest, follow the 5 Freeway. Maintain special VFR, special VFR conditions at or below 2,500 [feet].
Helicopter: Maintain special VFR at or below 2,500 [feet], [follow] I-5 northbound. 2EchoX.
Burbank tower: Number2EchoX, roger, and you’re cleared to Burbank Class Charlie surface area from the southeast to the northwest.
 
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zeke
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:45 am

Vladex wrote:
I am debating some people about wheether the helicopter pilot was circling because of the fog or because of the traffic? I am thinking fog because of how long he circled but others say pilot is faulted because he flew into the fog after routine holding for traffic.


Neither, they we waiting to get an ATC clearance through the control zone, they were waiting for ATC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Vladex
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:30 am

flybucky wrote:
Vladex wrote:
I am debating some people about wheether the helicopter pilot was circling because of the fog or because of the traffic? I am thinking fog because of how long he circled but others say pilot is faulted because he flew into the fog after routine holding for traffic.

You mean when he was circling over Glendale? That was waiting for ATC clearance, not fog.

You can read the ATC transcripts: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... ant-crash/

Burbank airport tower: Helicopter 2EX, Burbank tower. Burbank altimeter: 30.19. Burbank Class Charlie Surface area is IFR; say intentions.
Helicopter N72EX: … Maintain special VFR. Transition on the 101 westbound.
Burbank tower: Helicopter 2EX. Hold outside Burbank Class Charlie airspace. I have an aircraft going around.
Helicopter N72EX: 2EX, holding.
[Five seconds later]
Burbank tower: It’s going to be a little bit. I have a citation on a niner mile final and then go around that I just had … is going to be turning base to file in about three minutes.
Helicopter: Okay, we’ll continue holding. 2EX.
Burbank tower: NEcho2Ex, and for your planning purposes, you can expect to transition to the north side of the airport. I just spoke with Van Nuys [airport] on the line, and they’ve got multiple IFR departures coming off of runway 16, so you can expect to follow the 5 north and cross that way.
Helicopter: 2Ex. No problem.
[Three seconds later.]
Burbank tower: 317P Burbank tower. You can expect a few minutes; I got a special VFR helicopter I need to get to transitioning. He’s been holding for about 15 minutes. … Northwest, follow the 5 Freeway. Maintain special VFR, special VFR conditions at or below 2,500 [feet].
Helicopter: Maintain special VFR at or below 2,500 [feet], [follow] I-5 northbound. 2EchoX.
Burbank tower: Number2EchoX, roger, and you’re cleared to Burbank Class Charlie surface area from the southeast to the northwest.


But why would they let him in that hilly and foggy airspace when he was VFR and why was he waiting 15 minutes for traffic to clear?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:42 am

To give a SVFR clearance to operate in the control zone, ATC had to get the departing and arriving aircraft clear of zone. For both IFR and VFR traffic to operate inside the zone, it must 1000-3 miles. It was reported as 2-1/2 miles.


ATC doesn’t “let” VFR traffic anywhere, it’s up to the crew to decide where to fly. In any case ATC wouldn’t have information on the visibility near the accident site.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:44 am

IADFCO wrote:
airplanecrazy wrote:
Stickpusher wrote:

The simulation already convinced me that this was spatial disorientation, the detail of the pilot's looking down to the console tends to add to that.



You might be interested in my most recent analysis.
[...snip...]



I'm a bit puzzled by the relationship between "g" numbers and roll angle. The g's seem low. For a 45 deg roll angle I would expect something between 1.2 and 1.4 for a coordinated turn (I realize that this is unlikely to be a coordinated turn), and not much influence of flight path angle between a 20 deg descent and a 20 deg climb, and presumably somewhat larger angles. Sources are Figs. 1 and 7 of NASA TP-1773 (sorry, I don't know how to post a pdf, but the entire report is downloadable here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=1981 ... ion%7CNACA).

I'm an engineer, not a pilot, but I would think that looking at the artificial horizon would be the first thing to do once visibility is lost, and instruments (if functioning properly) would show clearly that the aircraft is not wings level. I wouldn't venture a guess, without careful calculations, on g's as perceived by the pilot, as they may be significantly different from what onboard accelerometers could register.

That's why I would keep an open mind on the possibility of mechanical failure, for example in the control mixing and the swashplate actuation, such that the pilot did try to take the appropriate corrective actions, but the aircraft did not respond properly. Unfortunately the preliminary NTSB report did not provide any useful information from this point of view.


G load in a turn requires the turn to be level, not diving or climbing. Correct, a level 45* bank turn would be 1.4 G. Unload the rotor and you could be at zero G at 70* of hank, falling like a rock.
 
IADFCO
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:16 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
I've decided to pull the video until I do a more through validation that the Tacview tool I am using to calculate the g force is accurate. Thank you for your engineering critique!


I think that your video is (was) very interesting "as is", possibly with a simple warning that the g force may not be accurate.

Getting a value of "g force" or load factor for a single main rotor helicopter configuration is not as straightforward as for a fixed wing airplane, because there are several plausible definitions. The traditional fixed wing definition, which gives 1.4 for a 45 degree bank angle (in a steady turn), is usually an upper bound on g's, and the actual "g" level is often 10-15% lower -- but then again one has to decide on the definition of load factor. One of the key reasons is that the rotor has to provide not only the lift (like a wing) but also the propulsive force (like a propeller or a jet). Bottom line: the video with the instruments, with the caveat on the g force, in my opinion is the best that one could hope to do with the available data (and then some).

And while we are on the "g" topic, there can be a load factor greater than 1 in any (steady) turn, level or otherwise. If the turn is not steady, then it all depends on the pilot inputs. Of course, in principle one could unload the rotor, e.g., by lowering collective, to the point that it develops zero average thrust. It wouldn't seem to me the kind of maneuver that a pilot would perform accidentally or because of disorientation, but, say, in aerobatic flight, why not?
 
airplanecrazy
Posts: 76
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:30 am

IADFCO wrote:
airplanecrazy wrote:
I've decided to pull the video until I do a more through validation that the Tacview tool I am using to calculate the g force is accurate. Thank you for your engineering critique!


I think that your video is (was) very interesting "as is", possibly with a simple warning that the g force may not be accurate.

Getting a value of "g force" or load factor for a single main rotor helicopter configuration is not as straightforward as for a fixed wing airplane, because there are several plausible definitions. The traditional fixed wing definition, which gives 1.4 for a 45 degree bank angle (in a steady turn), is usually an upper bound on g's, and the actual "g" level is often 10-15% lower -- but then again one has to decide on the definition of load factor. One of the key reasons is that the rotor has to provide not only the lift (like a wing) but also the propulsive force (like a propeller or a jet). Bottom line: the video with the instruments, with the caveat on the g force, in my opinion is the best that one could hope to do with the available data (and then some).

And while we are on the "g" topic, there can be a load factor greater than 1 in any (steady) turn, level or otherwise. If the turn is not steady, then it all depends on the pilot inputs. Of course, in principle one could unload the rotor, e.g., by lowering collective, to the point that it develops zero average thrust. It wouldn't seem to me the kind of maneuver that a pilot would perform accidentally or because of disorientation, but, say, in aerobatic flight, why not?


I very much appreciate your time thinking about this, and your engineering intuition and words of warning will definitely lead to a better product. I have been examining the data and testing the process that I used to generate the data behind the video. I have uncovered a flawed calculation in the open source software that I used to generate the roll angle. With the fix, the roll angles are reduced by almost 20 degrees at their maximum.

I have also examined the lateral and axial loads after the fix and am more confident in the results I am seeing. When the copter enters the final turn it is accelerating downward. Because of this, you can't just apply the formulas for bank and g's for a standard turn, because it isn't. I hope to have a new video for you to consider in a couple of days :)
 
airplanecrazy
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon May 18, 2020 2:19 pm

The FAA sent me SoCal Arrival ATC communications that I requested through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. I have time aligned this new audio to my reconstruction efforts.
Image
https://youtu.be/M_Dpm144KXo
 
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon May 18, 2020 4:31 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
The FAA sent me SoCal Arrival ATC communications that I requested through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. I have time aligned this new audio to my reconstruction efforts.
Image
https://youtu.be/M_Dpm144KXo

Excellent work. Thanks for sharing it.
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ikramerica
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon May 18, 2020 5:20 pm

Coroner's report was released and shows everyone died of blunt force trauma. So pilot didn’t have anything in autopsy that would scream incapacitation, though it might not be easy to determine if there was something medical that caused him to lose control.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
airplanecrazy
Posts: 76
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon May 18, 2020 5:36 pm

Here is my take of the transcript on frequency 134.2, SoCal Approach Burbank Sector

Pilot: [17:40:06] SoCal, Helicopter 7 2 Echo X-Ray with you transitioning in VFR conditions at one thousand five hundred to Camarillo.
Controller1: [17:40:17] Helicopter 7 2 Echo X-Ray SaCal Approach, Roger. You just going to stay down low at that, for all the way to Camarillo?
Pilot: [17:40:23] Yes sir, low altitude, 2 Echo X-Ray.
Controller1: [17:40:26] 2 Echo X-Ray, Roger. I'm going to lose RADAR an, uh, comms with you probably pretty shortly, so you’re going to squawk VRF and, uh, when you get closer, go to Camarillo tower.
Pilot: [17:40:37] Ok, we squawk VRF, 2 Echo X-Ray

Controller1/2: [17:42:58] [Crosstalk, Probable shift change] [17:43:17]

At 17:44:30 The helicopter starts the final ascent.

Pilot: [17.44.34] SoCal for Helicopter 2 Echo X-ray, we gotta go ahead and start our climb to go above the layers and we can stay with you.
Controller2: [17:44:43] 2 Echo X-ray, where are ya?
Pilot: [17:44:46] Uh, Southwest of Van Nuys, 2 Echo X-Ray
Controller2: [17:44:53] 2 Echo X-ray, IDENT
Pilot: [17:44:55] IDENT
Controller2: [17:45:00] 2 Echo X-ray, yeah, you’re following 1200 code. Uh, are you requesting flight following?
Pilot: [17:45:04] Yes sir, 2 Echo X-ray

The final left turn and descent start around 17:45:10

Controller2: [17:45:17] 2 Echo X-ray, [inaudible], say intentions?
At 17:45:20 the helicopter is descending at more than 1000 fpm according to ADS-B. It is not climbing.
Pilot: [17:45:20] Um climbing to 4000, 2 Echo X-ray [17:45:23]
At 17:45:23 the helicopter is descending at more than 2000 fpm according to ADS-B. It is not climbing. It seems the pilot thought they were climbing when in fact they were descending.

Controller2: [17:45:24] And then what are you going to do when you get to altitude?

Crash is approximately 17:45:38

Controller2: [17:46:02] 2 Echo X-ray, you’re still too low-level for a flight following at this time.
Controller2: [17:46:26] 2 Echo X-ray, SoCal.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Mon May 18, 2020 7:06 pm

airplanecrazy wrote:
The FAA sent me SoCal Arrival ATC communications that I requested through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. I have time aligned this new audio to my reconstruction efforts.
Image
https://youtu.be/M_Dpm144KXo


Wow, that was good work. Just to think if he had just waited an extra hour, the visibility would have been so much better.
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airplanecrazy
Posts: 76
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue May 19, 2020 12:38 am

Below is a copy of the Airworthiness documentation for N72EX. I bought it so I could see what kind of Transponder and ADS-B equipment was installed.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ai5ul4veNOgHiYlBhJG8CblFCNa9rA
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Tue May 19, 2020 9:32 am

Great work indeed, airplanecrazy!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Kobe Bryant killed in a helicopter crash

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:54 pm

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