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TropicalSky
Posts: 501
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:12 pm

And the hits just keeps on coming for BOEING
 
Amiga500
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:16 pm

Of more concern to me is the removal of the copper mesh (lightening protection) within the wings.

The FAA experts were (and are) not happy about it, but Boeing went ahead and did it anyway with the blessing of the FAA management.

Going from memory - the inerting system has not been part of the Master Minimum Equipment List. Flammability exposure is supposed to be under 3% (fleetwide).

With a composite construction meaning lightening will tend to arc from fastener to fastener, I don't see how the ignition energies will be kept below acceptable levels.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -measures/

But of course, "safety is our first priority"...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8338
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:11 pm

Hasty design, sloppy regulator, bottom dollar supply chain and bottom dollar FAL. What could go wrong. Blame customers mx, it worked for last 8 years.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:18 am

PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The allegations are nothing new, and would be hardly surprising if true.
IINM, several airlines now are having aircraft built in CHS flown to BFI/PAE and inspected there for quality prior to delivery.

If they *FLY* them to BFI/PAE for inspection, it seems airworthiness is not of particular concern . . .

(1) that's not necessarily true, e.g. witness one 737MAX or any aircraft shuttled on an experimental basis, (2) "safety" can be affected by both longterm and short-term quality issues, as well as seen or unseen....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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par13del
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:16 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Of more concern to me is the removal of the copper mesh (lightening protection) within the wings.

The FAA experts were (and are) not happy about it, but Boeing went ahead and did it anyway with the blessing of the FAA management.
.

So the FAA experts had a gripe with Boeing on their employer the FAA, did they complain to Boeing or the FAA?
If the FAA their employer went ahead with the removal, did they see data that the experts did not see, or why exactly did the FAA not trust their own experts?
 
Redd
Posts: 1260
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:59 am

WayexTDI wrote:
sulley wrote:
You all are dismissing this as a union hit piece.

Has anyone actually experienced the quality of the labor force in Charleston? It's terrible.

If it was really terrible as you're saying, what is the FAA doing?


If we've learned anything from the whole MAX debacle, we know they're not doing enough.
 
WIederling
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:09 am

par13del wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Of more concern to me is the removal of the copper mesh (lightening protection) within the wings.

The FAA experts were (and are) not happy about it, but Boeing went ahead and did it anyway with the blessing of the FAA management.
.

So the FAA experts had a gripe with Boeing on their employer the FAA, did they complain to Boeing or the FAA?
If the FAA their employer went ahead with the removal, did they see data that the experts did not see, or why exactly did the FAA not trust their own experts?


FAA is (intentionally) understaffed.
That usually leads to decimation in the lower "working" ranks.
the upper hierarchy tends to stay fully staffed till some collapse happens.

people tasked with delegated certification work used to be paid by Boeing but communicated with the FAA.

Change happened and now those same people are still paid by Boeing _but only talk to their in house Boeing boss_
who then "flappers"* the FAA officials.
*ref: https://www.shmoop.com/study-guides/lit ... -laputians
Murphy is an optimist
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:18 am

par13del wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Of more concern to me is the removal of the copper mesh (lightening protection) within the wings.

The FAA experts were (and are) not happy about it, but Boeing went ahead and did it anyway with the blessing of the FAA management.
.

So the FAA experts had a gripe with Boeing on their employer the FAA, did they complain to Boeing or the FAA?
If the FAA their employer went ahead with the removal, did they see data that the experts did not see, or why exactly did the FAA not trust their own experts?



Can you restructure that please - I can't understand what you are saying...?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:24 am

Oh not this again. With the current scrutiny the FAA has placed on Boeing you can be sure they would have shut down the Charleston plant by now if things were as bad as the union bosses in WA State claim. The things they have said about the workers hired in Charleston are absolutely disgusting and they should be ashamed of themselves.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:27 am

LAX772LR wrote:
The allegations are nothing new, and would be hardly surprising if true.

IINM, several airlines now are having aircraft built in CHS flown to BFI/PAE and inspected there for quality prior to delivery.


You mean inspected by the same people who left trash and other items in the 767 Tanker? The union workers in WA State have zero room to criticize anyone in Charleston. Absolutely none.
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:48 am

My view is that certain people are getting rich shorting Boeing stock and there is a nasty and rather vindictive campaign online to push the share price down through misinformation, exaggeration, smoke and mirrors and outright lies. Fake news, etc. Whether that is a group of investors acting illegally, or a group of disgruntled former employees (or, most outrageously of all, current employees Union hacks trying to push Boeing to give in to their wage demands etc) etc remains to be seen but there is a campaign and it is ugly as sin.

We saw it in the Ukraine shootdown in Iran - MSM falling over themselves to note that it was a Boeing 737 and somehow conflate a stupid and irresponsible link with the MAX issues. Disgusting really.

Its double standards - when the A320NEO has engine issues its all Pratt's fault (it is). But when the 787 and 779X has engine issues its all Boeing's fault, a big hit for Boeing, "another bodyblow" etc etc, not RR or GE. Mainstream, media cant wait to jump all over them.

I don't believe for one second this guy is telling the truth or that Boeing Charleston is putting out unsafe or unairworthy 787s. There's just no way. Not in this climate, this day and age and in the middle of Boeing's current MAX difficulties.

I also don't think for one second that any airline is accepting unairworthy 787s from Boeing. Ridiculous to suggest pax safety is being openly compromised knowingly by Boeing in Charles as this joker is alleging.

Move on!
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2020
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:40 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
I don't believe for one second this guy is telling the truth or that Boeing Charleston is putting out unsafe or unairworthy 787s. There's just no way.

The guy was fired from his job and is using the 737MAX problems to say he was unfairly dismissed. Usually people would dismiss guys like this but we are now paying attention to any rumour from inside Boeing. Perfect for a quick cash grab.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:32 pm

Yes the Boeing friends, somebody being a whistleblower can only be a disgruntled former employee.

Last time whistleblower was talking about oxygen bottles. It was of course only a disgruntled employee. But wonder of wonder, this article has the information that the oxygen bottle problem, not functioning bottles, has been solved.
I thing the Boeing friends here should stop screaming disgruntled employee or union representative, because there seem to be problems at Boeing, that find solutions when talked about outside the company.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:34 pm

Redd wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
sulley wrote:
You all are dismissing this as a union hit piece.

Has anyone actually experienced the quality of the labor force in Charleston? It's terrible.

If it was really terrible as you're saying, what is the FAA doing?


If we've learned anything from the whole MAX debacle, we know they're not doing enough.

No doubt.
However, I think there is a lot of room between "not doing enough" and "doing nothing and allow Boeing CHS to put out aircraft that are not airworthy, that airlines are not accepting, etc...".
Why haven't other Aviation Authorities revoked the Airworthiness of 787s coming out of CHS?

Speaking of airlines again, we've heard KLM complain about 1 plane and Qatar stopping deliveries from CHS (I don't hold my breath to what Qatar and AAB say); does that mean that the other airlines are fine with those planes? Are they really accepting non-airworthy aircraft and flying pax and crew in those?
I don't mind a good Boeing bashing; but it has to have substance. And I don't see none in this case.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8338
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:37 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Yes the Boeing friends, somebody being a whistleblower can only be a disgruntled former employee.


And on those venting their frustration on internal Skype IM, why cant they use whistleblower protections to come out with the truth.

They have prepared statements for every situation, just no technical solutions.
All posts are just opinions.
 
slider
Posts: 7602
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:41 pm

It's one thing for a whistleblower to have a legitimate grievance or observation that requires action.

It's quite another to literally claim that not a single piece in CHS is airworthy...that's bombastic and dangerous talk.
 
Miquel787
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 pm

Why didn.t this guy come forward when was working for Boeing? It.s so easy to put your former employer in a bad daylight. Just for the publicity? If the 787 has real problems and this person was really concerned about safety issues he should have blown the whistle a long time ago. For me this is a b..lshit story.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:09 am

Miquel787 wrote:
Why didn.t this guy come forward when was working for Boeing? It.s so easy to put your former employer in a bad daylight. Just for the publicity? If the 787 has real problems and this person was really concerned about safety issues he should have blown the whistle a long time ago. For me this is a b..lshit story.


Are you familiar with the word "unemployable"? Because that's what tends to happen with wistleblowers. I tend to remember that the guy, who came forward after Alaska Airlines flight 261 crash, became unemployable. They did settle with him, smearing his name in the process. At least he got some money as compensation. What about the people who do come forward, get eased out, and get a black mark on their resume, without any cash settlement?
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SteelChair
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:08 pm

It would be interesting to know what internal Boeing data say with regard to reliability of Everett built 787s versus CHS built 787s. We know there haven't been any accidents, what about incidents? Without real data, much of the anti-CHS sniping seems like pro-union propaganda originating in Washington.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:49 pm

South Carolina has an income tax. Washington does not. Union dues are not that high, and in effect include the legal defense if someone is seriously injured, mistreated, or wrongly fired.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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kanban
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Re: Media: Boeing Dreamliner Production Problems Threaten The Aircraft's Safety, Former Quality Manager Warns

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:19 pm

The guy was probably middle management and too far away from the actual manufacturing and quality processes to understand the sequences. also is probably an opponent to sell inspection as it was reducing his department size to where he'd have to go to work again instead of just attending meetings. actually we found that with self inspection mechanics took the time to do it right the first time instead of hoping someone later would catch a problem and fix it.
 
jwjsamster
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:12 am

Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:56 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
jwjsamster wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
If it was really terrible as you're saying, what is the FAA doing? They should have raided that facility a long time ago then.


The FAA should have done a lot of things long time ago...



So I guess by your logic anything produced in the South is crap. Does that go for all the Airbus planes made in Mobile? Your central point is incredibly biased and insulting.



When did I mention the south?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4975
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Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:42 am

WayexTDI wrote:
sulley wrote:
You all are dismissing this as a union hit piece.

Has anyone actually experienced the quality of the labor force in Charleston? It's terrible.

If it was really terrible as you're saying, what is the FAA doing? They should have raided that facility a long time ago then.

The FAA Rarely ever inspects an airplane in maintenance or on the ramp. They Do however look at all the I's dotted and T's crossed. they might know what they're liking at and then again? They might not! I once had an FAA inspector go out on a High Power run with me in the left seat as I was bringing the engines up to power I saw a parameter shift and closed the throttles; We actually got in an argument because even though the engines made takeoff power I rejected the run due to the bleed shift. The inspector was adamant that I was being overly critical and called out our chief inspector to tell me I was wrong. We got him and 2 powerplant engineers to the office and I told them what I saw.
Upon inspection? We found a PS4 line cracked. and the last stage of the compressor showed damage which we were investigating all along. you could only see the damage be borescoping the exit Guide vanes. And I saw the parameter shift when going to high power because the other engine was rock steady. The inspector didn't see it at all and I sw it because I was advancing the throttles from the bottom and looking for any parameter shifts and if they were going to occur. Later? The inspector and I became friends because Her Boss Barry Bassey told her she's better cool the hell down . Mr. Bassey was one of the few men in this WORLD I actually was afraid of. That guy knew far More than he would ever tell you but you KNEW he knew FAR more than you did. He encouraged me to go on and get my Degree and I'm now GLAD I was afraid of him because it made me a better Supervisor and Later a better Maintenance Controller. I never ONCE had an occasion to be questioned by an FAA inspector where I was backpedaling. When they came to ME? I was Always Ready!
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:24 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
sulley wrote:
You all are dismissing this as a union hit piece.

Has anyone actually experienced the quality of the labor force in Charleston? It's terrible.

If it was really terrible as you're saying, what is the FAA doing? They should have raided that facility a long time ago then.

The FAA Rarely ever inspects an airplane in maintenance or on the ramp. They Do however look at all the I's dotted and T's crossed. they might know what they're liking at and then again? They might not! I once had an FAA inspector go out on a High Power run with me in the left seat as I was bringing the engines up to power I saw a parameter shift and closed the throttles; We actually got in an argument because even though the engines made takeoff power I rejected the run due to the bleed shift. The inspector was adamant that I was being overly critical and called out our chief inspector to tell me I was wrong. We got him and 2 powerplant engineers to the office and I told them what I saw.
Upon inspection? We found a PS4 line cracked. and the last stage of the compressor showed damage which we were investigating all along. you could only see the damage be borescoping the exit Guide vanes. And I saw the parameter shift when going to high power because the other engine was rock steady. The inspector didn't see it at all and I sw it because I was advancing the throttles from the bottom and looking for any parameter shifts and if they were going to occur. Later? The inspector and I became friends because Her Boss Barry Bassey told her she's better cool the hell down . Mr. Bassey was one of the few men in this WORLD I actually was afraid of. That guy knew far More than he would ever tell you but you KNEW he knew FAR more than you did. He encouraged me to go on and get my Degree and I'm now GLAD I was afraid of him because it made me a better Supervisor and Later a better Maintenance Controller. I never ONCE had an occasion to be questioned by an FAA inspector where I was backpedaling. When they came to ME? I was Always Ready!

Nice story, thanks for sharing.

But you're not understanding what I'm saying. I never said for the FAA to inspect each and every plane; I said that, if the quality of the planes (every single one of them as per the whistleblower) was that terrible that it made them non-airworthy (as claimed again by the whistleblower), then it would be easy for the FAA (using information from the whistleblower) to raid the facility and find what is claimed. At this point, the facility could have its Part 21 Certificate (I'm assuming it's also Part 21 for the whole plane, same as for the LRU's - if it's not, then replace with the appropriate Part of the CFR) revoked until all findings corrected.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Huge quality problems with 787 production in North Charleston

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:51 pm

zeke wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Mechanics can't inspect all area's.
Wiring is fed through area's that are not inspected even during heavy checks. Sometimes it takes a fault or even a fire to find an issue.


Swarf tends to fall to the lowest point in the fuselage, these areas are normally inspected during heavy checks to see if water has accumulated and caused corrosion or freezing damage.

Wiring is not directly run in this area, it is normally more elevated (like the underside of the passenger and cargo floors) again to move it away from areas that are known to collect water.


The main wire looms do run in the ceilings and under the cabin, but in reality you have wiring all over the place. Metal shavings can do as much damage sneaking into bundles of wire as they can shafing against a single wire.

In this case, you can easily see why shavings produced during floor panel installation can fall into the wire looms located under the floor:

Image

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