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Revelation
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A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:28 am

Drink spills should be easier to sort out than esoteric blade coatings, shouldn't they?

Airbus and Rolls-Royce are investigating two incidents in which A350s experienced uncommanded in-flight engine shutdown after drinks were spilled on controls situated on the cockpit centre pedestal.
...
Flight-recorder analysis showed the electronic engine control had commanded closure of a high-pressure shut-off valve after inconsistent output from the integrated control panel.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a350- ... 34.article
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1989worstyear
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:32 am

:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.
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Antarius
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:36 am

Lolwut.

That said, this is good news and likely an easy fix.
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:40 am

1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.

Either that, or provide branded sippy cups for the crews to use? :biggrin:
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strfyr51
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:41 am

1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.

Unfortunately? They Don't and the panels are not Sealed. coffee with Sugar is the most deadly
 
ltbewr
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:43 am

Revelation wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.

Either that, or provide branded sippy cups for the crews to use? :biggrin:

Maybe a covered cup set into a holder and a long straw ?
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:04 am

Don't you get cupholders with these things?
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SheddingVortex
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:06 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Don't you get cupholders with these things?


Europeans don’t like cup holders. ;)
 
x1234
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:56 am

If my iPhone can be waterproof why can't the cockpit be?
 
ss278
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:03 am

Fate is the Hunter.
 
reltney
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:17 am

As a pilot, this condition is totally unacceptable. At our airline we have sealed cups however they bust open after a drop. I watched a soda can bust open on a console with the loss of only 1 radio. I have seen condensation drip from vents in the cockpit and also vents that spit ice balls in humid destinations....
Would YOU let your family fly on a plane where a drop of a drink could shut down an engine! Not my family. Totally unacceptable! Find a way to seal the critical area before the next flight.

Aircraft is unairthworthy..... indisputable..

Fix the damn thing.
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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comet44
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:29 am

ss278 wrote:
Fate is the Hunter.


Yup!
 
ikramerica
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:31 am

ltbewr wrote:
Revelation wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.

Either that, or provide branded sippy cups for the crews to use? :biggrin:

Maybe a covered cup set into a holder and a long straw ?

Drinking coffee from a straw is not a good idea...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:32 am

The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.
 
model299
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:40 am

Read an article some time ago, written by an American automotive design consultant. He related the time he was working with engineers from Mercedes. He said he really had to work to convince them that the cup holders needed to be bigger and more plentiful.
 
GatorClark
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:56 am

I see this whole situation as irrefutable evidence we need to scrap ETOPS and go back to trijets and quad jets. We'd NEVER have to divert if we only lost 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 engines.. :duck:
 
YoungDon
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:04 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.

So true. I remember an 80s BMW my mom had didn't even have cupholders. Crazy to think about today.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:09 am

Just Scotchgard the whole console and call it a day...

The downside of the Airbus table is that it offers the temptation to just put your drink on it rather than reach for the cupholder.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
VV
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:35 am

Revelation wrote:
Drink spills should be easier to sort out than esoteric blade coatings, shouldn't they?

Airbus and Rolls-Royce are investigating two incidents in which A350s experienced uncommanded in-flight engine shutdown after drinks were spilled on controls situated on the cockpit centre pedestal.
...
Flight-recorder analysis showed the electronic engine control had commanded closure of a high-pressure shut-off valve after inconsistent output from the integrated control panel.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a350- ... 34.article


Should the system be made more immune to pilot mishaps?
Or can we rely on pilot's discipline?

Or do they need training on how to handle beverage in the cockpit?
Do they need simulator trading?
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:52 am

The scariest thing for me is that if they lost one engine due to a coffee spill, they might as well have lost both, as the engine controls are near to each other (though admittedly a bit further apart than eg. in A330)

The solution is simple - train the CC to pass drinks on the outboard side and never pass anything across the console.
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
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767333ER
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:02 am

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Drink spills should be easier to sort out than esoteric blade coatings, shouldn't they?

Airbus and Rolls-Royce are investigating two incidents in which A350s experienced uncommanded in-flight engine shutdown after drinks were spilled on controls situated on the cockpit centre pedestal.
...
Flight-recorder analysis showed the electronic engine control had commanded closure of a high-pressure shut-off valve after inconsistent output from the integrated control panel.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a350- ... 34.article


Should the system be made more immune to pilot mishaps?
Or can we rely on pilot's discipline?

Or do they need training on how to handle beverage in the cockpit?
Do they need simulator trading?

Only one response is appropriate to this: what the actual f***?
reltney wrote:
As a pilot, this condition is totally unacceptable. At our airline we have sealed cups however they bust open after a drop. I watched a soda can bust open on a console with the loss of only 1 radio. I have seen condensation drip from vents in the cockpit and also vents that spit ice balls in humid destinations....
Would YOU let your family fly on a plane where a drop of a drink could shut down an engine! Not my family. Totally unacceptable! Find a way to seal the critical area before the next flight.

Aircraft is unairthworthy..... indisputable..

Fix the damn thing.

Yet again, only one response is appropriate to this: what the actual f***... that is, unless you are being sarcastic, but how would anyone know in text?
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:32 am

model299 wrote:
Read an article some time ago, written by an American automotive design consultant. He related the time he was working with engineers from Mercedes. He said he really had to work to convince them that the cup holders needed to be bigger and more plentiful.

Yes, this was (or is?) an issue. When I started to drive cars (at the end of the 80ies) I always wondered why I could not use these tiny cup holders, e.g. for a normal bootle of water. I think they were designed when the only thing you could buy at a gas station were this tiny white little thin plastic coffee cups, which were so hot that you could only hold them at the top of the cup.

GatorClark wrote:
I see this whole situation as irrefutable evidence we need to scrap ETOPS and go back to trijets and quad jets. We'd NEVER have to divert if we only lost 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 engines.. :duck:

Airbus is so desperate that they cannot find a solution for this new problem with the cup holders, that they are now considering to stop production of the A350 and re-start promoting the A380. „4 engines 4 more coffee 4 the pilots“ ;-)
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:56 am

We did have one cup holder each in the A320, but in the B787 we have two each and yes you often use two. One for your water bottle and one for the coffee/soda
 
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keesje
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:11 am

Revelation wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.

Either that, or provide branded sippy cups for the crews to use? :biggrin:


This seems a serious issue. Because there are a lot of coffees and soft drinks going around in cockpits.

Of course the A350 has tripple sunk coffee / refrreshment holders on the window sides of the seats, without any electronics close by and cups shouldn't be above the center console.

Still it will happen. No doubt crew procedures, console fluid resistance will be reviewed. And not only for the A350. Maybe you sippy cups will be part of a solution, specially short term..

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WIederling
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:23 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.


Nobody here drives around with a supersized liquid beverage in a light disposable container.
don't drink drive :-))

There are times your drive and times you eat, drink. no need to have it all at once and 24/7
( bad enough for smokers to fish for their wayward fag causing accidents.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:28 am

thepinkmachine wrote:
The solution is simple - train the CC to pass drinks on the outboard side and never pass anything across the console.


change the panels to be more water resistant. See to it the sh*t runs off and doesn't stand in puddles on interfaces that
provide for capillary suction to the insides.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:29 am

I don't know, but continuous IV drips with selectable caffeine content are the future.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:32 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Don't you get cupholders with these things?



On the A350 there is 3 cup holders which can hold anything up to around a 600 ml bottle, and one larger bottle holder that will hold a 1-1.5 liter bottle per side. Drinks are supposed to be passed on the window side in any aircraft.

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TOGA10
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:43 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.

But Airbus does provide cupholders... It's a matter of procedures. Hand the coffee cup via the window side, not over the center pedestal and keep your drink there. In my airline, this is done always like that and the cup has a lid on it. If people are not going to follow procedure, you can add 4 more cup holders, it won't solve the issue.
I wanna go back upstairs!
 
Bongodog49
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:12 am

There's a simple answer to why US cupholders are larger than European ones, because the cups are larger !!!.
Especially true of Southern Europe where the coffee of choice is an espresso, rather than a US style Grande latte with caramel syrup
 
KingOrGod
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:26 am

reltney wrote:
As a pilot, this condition is totally unacceptable. At our airline we have sealed cups however they bust open after a drop. I watched a soda can bust open on a console with the loss of only 1 radio. I have seen condensation drip from vents in the cockpit and also vents that spit ice balls in humid destinations....
Would YOU let your family fly on a plane where a drop of a drink could shut down an engine! Not my family. Totally unacceptable! Find a way to seal the critical area before the next flight.

Aircraft is unairthworthy..... indisputable..

Fix the damn thing.



Or - as a pilot - act responsibly with your liquids, and treat your machine properly. Drinks should *never* be anywhere near the centre pedestal on any aircraft...
 
kalvado
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:49 am

KingOrGod wrote:
reltney wrote:
As a pilot, this condition is totally unacceptable. At our airline we have sealed cups however they bust open after a drop. I watched a soda can bust open on a console with the loss of only 1 radio. I have seen condensation drip from vents in the cockpit and also vents that spit ice balls in humid destinations....
Would YOU let your family fly on a plane where a drop of a drink could shut down an engine! Not my family. Totally unacceptable! Find a way to seal the critical area before the next flight.

Aircraft is unairthworthy..... indisputable..

Fix the damn thing.



Or - as a pilot - act responsibly with your liquids, and treat your machine properly. Drinks should *never* be anywhere near the centre pedestal on any aircraft...

Were you the guy who wrote "make safe plane even safer" speech for Boeing CEO?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:05 am

model299 wrote:
Read an article some time ago, written by an American automotive design consultant. He related the time he was working with engineers from Mercedes. He said he really had to work to convince them that the cup holders needed to be bigger and more plentiful.


Indeed, there needs to be bigger cup holders so that a nice coffee can be put in to the bottom of an enormous mug and then watered down with 568ml of tepid water.

Fred
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bcworld
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:16 am

flipdewaf wrote:
model299 wrote:
Read an article some time ago, written by an American automotive design consultant. He related the time he was working with engineers from Mercedes. He said he really had to work to convince them that the cup holders needed to be bigger and more plentiful.


Indeed, there needs to be bigger cup holders so that a nice coffee can be put in to the bottom of an enormous mug and then watered down with 568ml of tepid water.

Fred

That would be a British pint though, so more likely 473ml of tepid water. Although you'd have to use some antiquated units no one else does...16 fl oz.
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:47 am

1989worstyear wrote:
:boggled:

Surely the OEM's must use some kind of drip protection in the center pedestals.


They don’t and don’t call me Surely. :duck:

Being serious: the movie Fate is the Hunter comes to mind.
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:13 am

Why would you spill drinks on the panels? Just don't do it. Simple fix.
Good moaning!
 
pecevanne
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:27 am

thepinkmachine wrote:
The scariest thing for me is that if they lost one engine due to a coffee spill, they might as well have lost both, as the engine controls are near to each other (though admittedly a bit further apart than eg. in A330)

The solution is simple - train the CC to pass drinks on the outboard side and never pass anything across the console.

As my company did when A-320 started flying in 1992.
Every drink passed by the outboards.
 
pecevanne
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:29 am

But now pilots like to use the sliding table for food and drinks.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:35 am

Another reason to reduce cockpit manning formulas.

Fewer humans = fewer errors = more safety

In the meantime, spill proof the panels and put out a pilot bulletin.
 
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Erebus
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:35 pm

So, spilling coffee on the engine controls causes an engine surge.

What if you spilled Red Bull? :spin:
 
kalvado
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:44 pm

Erebus wrote:
So, spilling coffee on the engine controls causes an engine surge.

What if you spilled Red Bull? :spin:

Mythbusters no longer make their show; otherwise that would be a good one to test.
 
basspaul
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:46 pm

This boils down to risk analysis and the design of the console. The risk of liquids falling on the console is far from zero (procedures reduce, but do not eliminate this risk). You need to analyze the impact(s) of liquid on the equipment. If a piece of equipment will fail due to liquid, you then need to see what the impact of that failed equipment is on other systems and ultimately the aircraft. If the failure causes risk to flight (such as it appears here with the throttles), then you either need to prevent the first failure (drip proof) or ensure there are backups or other failsafes available to the crew (which don't appear to exist in this case).
 
fsclips
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:48 pm

I fly the bus and I would say it all comes down to discipline.
We all know that handling drinks anywhere over any electric panel is a big no-no. When the cabin crew passes us the coffee, I make a point of turning towards the window so they have no choice but to hand it to me over the outboard side.

Before becoming a pilot I used to be cabin crew and so I can understand the dynamics at play. Especially on short haul flights where time can be tight it is much easier and quicker to pop your head in and hand the pilots their two coffees and close to door to start the service than walk right behind each seat and awkwardly reach round the seat to give each pilot their drink.
However, that's the procedure and I always insist on it.

Does it mean it could never happen to me? No, but I try to manage the risk to the best of my abilities.
 
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Erebus
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:52 pm

kalvado wrote:
Erebus wrote:
So, spilling coffee on the engine controls causes an engine surge.

What if you spilled Red Bull? :spin:

Mythbusters no longer make their show; otherwise that would be a good one to test.


Might bust their budget though!
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:33 pm

asdf wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Why would you spill drinks on the panels? Just don't do it. Simple fix.


a true proof, that the 737 models are the better choice than that european stuff ...

because the 737 don't have any electric components in the pilot consoles
only proven and reliable hydraulics and manual cables and such ...

so spilling is a non-event on a 737
;-)

After a NZ 737 had a cockpit fire in 2007 after coffee was split on the the center console, they sent an A320 which has its cup holder on the window side to pick the stranded passengers and crew up. If you care to look at the accident report, you will learn that the 737 cup holder is attached to the center console.

Full accident report here https://www.taic.org.nz/sites/default/f ... vFINAL.pdf

Glass houses, stones ....
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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caoimhin
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:45 pm

zeke wrote:
asdf wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Why would you spill drinks on the panels? Just don't do it. Simple fix.


a true proof, that the 737 models are the better choice than that european stuff ...

because the 737 don't have any electric components in the pilot consoles
only proven and reliable hydraulics and manual cables and such ...

so spilling is a non-event on a 737
;-)

After a NZ 737 had a cockpit fire in 2007 after coffee was split on the the center console, they sent an A320 which has its cup holder on the window side to pick the stranded passengers and crew up. If you care to look at the accident report, you will learn that the 737 cup holder is attached to the center console.

Full accident report here https://www.taic.org.nz/sites/default/f ... vFINAL.pdf

Glass houses, stones ....


Pretty sure it was a joke, my man.
 
Amiga500
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:51 pm

The only solution is to shoot these pilots. No excuse for having coffee in the cockpit.


Now, if they were drinking a fine tea, they should be commended for their taste and Airbus told to get the finger out.
 
memphiX
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:03 pm

I am sure that most of you are dead serious and a few are just being silly :)
Thanks for the comments! I enjoy reading them while sipping my coffee..

Wth.. where is my cup holder?
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:59 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
There's a simple answer to why US cupholders are larger than European ones, because the cups are larger !!!.
Especially true of Southern Europe where the coffee of choice is an espresso, rather than a US style Grande latte with caramel syrup


you drink your espresso fresh, hot.
I'd be surprised if there is an Italian around bringing it into his car.
you could as well drink engine oil run off. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:09 pm

Erebus wrote:
So, spilling coffee on the engine controls causes an engine surge.

What if you spilled Red Bull? :spin:


The rescuers, evinrude gets medication:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8afviqR ... tu.be&t=68
Murphy is an optimist

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos