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Bongodog49
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
Bongodog49 wrote:
There's a simple answer to why US cupholders are larger than European ones, because the cups are larger !!!.
Especially true of Southern Europe where the coffee of choice is an espresso, rather than a US style Grande latte with caramel syrup


you drink your espresso fresh, hot.
I'd be surprised if there is an Italian around bringing it into his car.
you could as well drink engine oil run off. :-)


Very true, No self respecting Italian would forgoe the opportunity to sit and chat whilst drinking coffee when the alternative is to drink it in isolation in a car.

I worry about highly paid well renumerated pilots who cannot work out what the three drinks holders in the side console are for and instead manage to spill their beverage over the centrew console.
 
FlyingVan
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:37 pm

I'm pretty sure no pilots would intentionally spill anything on the controls. Unfortunately s**t happens and they need to find a way to prevent liquids from sipping in the controls and create problems.
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:40 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
I worry about highly paid well renumerated pilots who cannot work out what the three drinks holders in the side console are for and instead manage to spill their beverage over the centrew console.


Sharing a drink across the divide?
or
"Hey, let me hold that 4th coffee for you!"
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:44 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
Very true, No self respecting Italian would forgoe the opportunity to sit and chat whilst drinking coffee when the alternative is to drink it in isolation in a car.

Especially in many cases if that car was taking them to a place where they were expected to work.
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Heinkel
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:56 pm

I'm really surprised, that the electric devices in the center console are not protected against spilling fluids, while everone knows, that beverages were handled in that area and flights are bumpy sometimes. I would expect at least IP 44. What, if the flight crew gets airsick and vomits?

I work for Volkswagen R&D and I can tell you, that the devices in the center console (where the cup holders are located) are protected against dripping fluids. The cables are tested for their durablity against coffee and especially coffee with whitener / milk and sugar.

The horizontal surfaces (like the center console) are most endangered.

Cupholders are a US thing. The late Ferdinand Piech brought it to Volkswagen during his time as CEO and forced the designers to put cupholders in the new vehicles. They investigated, how many cupholders the other car manufacturers put into their vehicles.

European cupholders are made to hold a cup or a (small) mug. BMW offers special mugs, which fit their cupholders. They include a lid with two small openings to drink. May be Airbus and Boeing should offer those mug with their logo, too.
 
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:16 pm

Heinkel wrote:
European cupholders are made to hold a cup or a (small) mug. BMW offers special mugs, which fit their cupholders. They include a lid with two small openings to drink. May be Airbus and Boeing should offer those mug with their logo, too.

Yes, I have one of those mugs. Also I have tapered travel mugs twice as tall that still fit into a mid 2000s BMW cup holder. Aluminum soda cans and thin water bottles fit. Fat water or soda bottles don't fit. Unfortunately many US retailers are going to the fat plastic bottle. Luckily coffee is usually served in tapered cups that do fit.

Thanks for your perspective as an auto designer.

For the record, one of the shutdown events was a US based airline whereas the other was Asian.
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LDRA
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:38 pm

The root cause is presence of un-certified coffee in cockpit. Had the crew ordered FAA certified coffee from gallery, the incident would have been avoided
 
hivue
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:50 pm

comet44 wrote:
ss278 wrote:
Fate is the Hunter.


Yup!


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Seeing that film as a teenager was an epiphany for me on how the universe actually works when it comes to accidents (not just in aviation but in all walks of life).
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Polot
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:02 pm

Who knew cup holders could be so controversial and rile up so much emotion.

Personally I'd love to see car manufacturers come up with a 'burrito holder' for once, or a 'Cornish pasty' tray, or a "Miso soup" vane.... but something tells me that all we shall see instead will be bigger and bigger cupholders....

Cup holders are actually great at holding burritos and soup (unsure about Cornish pasty). You should give them a try.
 
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:06 pm

Polot wrote:
Who knew cup holders could be so controversial and rile up so much emotion.

Indeed, they are deemed to be a plot by the US to undermine European culture.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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par13del
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:21 pm

I went back and re-read the article twice and I still did not see where EASA is listed.
Obviously both Airbus and EASA failed to properly categorize the risk involved in beverage spills in the A350 cockpit. How can an issue which involves the diversion of an a/c, inconvenience of a hundred or more pax, additional landing fees, fuel cost, and potential damage to an engine and electronics not have a significant risk component included in the certification process.

Strange is all I can say, but am thankful for the MAX thread since I would have never known to look for this glaring oversight by the certification authorities. Wonder if this was failed by EASA but passed by the FAA, that would explain it. Note how they also mentioned the USA airlines, Delta of all people.
The plot thickens.....
 
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N14AZ
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:22 pm

Polot wrote:
Who knew cup holders could be so controversial and rile up so much emotion.

Personally I'd love to see car manufacturers come up with a 'burrito holder' for once, or a 'Cornish pasty' tray, or a "Miso soup" vane.... but something tells me that all we shall see instead will be bigger and bigger cupholders....

Cup holders are actually great at holding burritos and soup (unsure about Cornish pasty). You should give them a try.

I suggest to start a separate forum.
- Civil Aviation
- Travel, polls & preferences
- Military
- Non-aviation

and in addition:
- Cup holders

Cup holder should be also big enough to hold a snow globe while driving to your beloved... (... I know, it’s getting old, but i cannot resist)
 
reltney
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:07 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Drink spills should be easier to sort out than esoteric blade coatings, shouldn't they?

Airbus and Rolls-Royce are investigating two incidents in which A350s experienced uncommanded in-flight engine shutdown after drinks were spilled on controls situated on the cockpit centre pedestal.
...
Flight-recorder analysis showed the electronic engine control had commanded closure of a high-pressure shut-off valve after inconsistent output from the integrated control panel.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a350- ... 34.article


Should the system be made more immune to pilot mishaps?
Or can we rely on pilot's discipline?

Or do they need training on how to handle beverage in the cockpit?
Do they need simulator trading?



The threat is mitigated by the actions above but more water traps are out there. Dripping vents with condensation. Ice chunks shot from vents. Have you ever coughed while drinking due to whatever...... it’s not just spilled drinks that could introduce moisture...

Good chats on here...keep it up. It’s not a BvsA thing either. 777s had a few issues also...

Cheers
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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Erebus
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:07 pm

So according to some here, observing proper cockpit beverage etiquette is apparently on par with handling Boeing's erratic automation inputs.

I got coffee on my desk right now next to my keyboard. Gotta pull out that computer manual to figure out where exactly I should place the cup....
 
asdf
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:15 pm

I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee

Image
 
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par13del
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:16 pm

Erebus wrote:
So according to some here, observing proper cockpit beverage etiquette is apparently on par with handling Boeing's erratic automation inputs.
....

Naw, its more about how the regulators did not see moisture as being a significant factor in the design of cockpit panels and the electronics encased therein....maybe since they put in cup holders they thought the electronic could use minimal cover....
IFSD are no big thing anyway now that we have moved on from 4 engines for ............
 
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Erebus
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:27 pm

par13del wrote:
Naw, its more about how the regulators did not see moisture as being a significant factor in the design of cockpit panels and the electronics encased therein....maybe since they put in cup holders they thought the electronic could use minimal cover....
IFSD are no big thing anyway now that we have moved on from 4 engines for ............


I don't know if there's any aircraft out there that has spill-proof cockpit electronics, but maybe Calhoun can incorporate the idea in his cockpit of the future.
 
Heinkel
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:28 pm

Erebus wrote:
So according to some here, observing proper cockpit beverage etiquette is apparently on par with handling Boeing's erratic automation inputs.

I got coffee on my desk right now next to my keyboard. Gotta pull out that computer manual to figure out where exactly I should place the cup....


You compare apples with oranges.

1) Your desk stands on solid ground and typically doesn't move (unless an earthquake). So much less risk to spill your coffee.
2) In case, you really spillt your coffee on your computer, worst case is that your keyboard or your notebook is ruined. Not too much damage and no risk of any fatalities.

Tea/coffee, especially with milk and sugar, kills electronic equipment fast. Much worse than pure water. My wife's mobile phone felt straight into a mug of tea (English). She fetched it out within seconds but it was damaged beyond repair (Write off).

We had to learn, that spilled coffed on an airliners center console can lead to an engine shutdown (and theoretically to a dual engine shutdown), fire and smoke and a loss of communication. Those events in a big airliner in cruise are really dangerous. Not to compare with a ruined keyboard on a desk.

As mentioned before, in the automotive industry the possible damages of spillt drinks are known and the better OEMs protect their cars against it. Even more surprising, that it looks like this problem is not known to the OEMs of civilian airliners.
 
VV
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:37 pm

The regulators must impose baby bottles only in the cockpit.

Image
 
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Erebus
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 pm

Heinkel wrote:
We had to learn, that spilled coffed on an airliners center console can lead to an engine shutdown (and theoretically to a dual engine shutdown), fire and smoke and a loss of communication. Those events in a big airliner in cruise are really dangerous. Not to compare with a ruined keyboard on a desk.

As mentioned before, in the automotive industry the possible damages of spillt drinks are known and the better OEMs protect their cars against it. Even more surprising, that it looks like this problem is not known to the OEMs of civilian airliners.


Yes, but what could be the solution to this?

Methinks that asdf's post # 75 is the way to go about this, aside from grounding thousands of aircraft and redesigning the cockpit electronics to be spill-proof.
 
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 pm

asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee

+1 for sippy cups being the expedient solution to this airworthiness crisis.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:48 pm

Sippy cups are a good idea but some toddler may mistake 170 F Starbucks coffee for his/her milk/juice.

Can't Airbus custom order clear silicone covers from eBay.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:26 pm

At least no one died.
Last edited by crimsonchin on Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:28 pm

asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee


Comments like that are plain dumb, no way in the world will an AD be issued, there is no airworthiness issue.

It would be like issuing an AD saying not to hit power poles, buildings, or other aircraft on the ground. It does nothing for something 99.98% of the people already avoid by looking out the window.

The only thing that needs to be changed is for cabin crew to pass the drinks on the side where they are supposed to, and not over the pedestal where they are not supposed to.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
asdf
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:39 pm

zeke wrote:
asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee


Comments like that are plain dumb, no way in the world will an AD be issued, there is no airworthiness issue.

It would be like issuing an AD saying not to hit power poles, buildings, or other aircraft on the ground. It does nothing for something 99.98% of the people already avoid by looking out the window.

The only thing that needs to be changed is for cabin crew to pass the drinks on the side where they are supposed to, and not over the pedestal where they are not supposed to.


zeke, it was simply irony, sarcasm, humor .....
 
speedbird52
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:48 pm

WIederling wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.


Nobody here drives around with a supersized liquid beverage in a light disposable container.
don't drink drive :-))

There are times your drive and times you eat, drink. no need to have it all at once and 24/7
( bad enough for smokers to fish for their wayward fag causing accidents.)

My first car accident was caused by my coffee falling out of my cup holder, burning my feet during a turn, and keeping me distracted before I went off the road.
 
speedbird52
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:49 pm

zeke wrote:
asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee


Comments like that are plain dumb, no way in the world will an AD be issued, there is no airworthiness issue.

It would be like issuing an AD saying not to hit power poles, buildings, or other aircraft on the ground. It does nothing for something 99.98% of the people already avoid by looking out the window.

The only thing that needs to be changed is for cabin crew to pass the drinks on the side where they are supposed to, and not over the pedestal where they are not supposed to.

How did the joke go that far over your head.
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:51 pm

asdf wrote:
it was simply irony, sarcasm, humor .....


Been so many people recently I have busted for posting non factual info and then come out and say it was sarcasm.

Simply unable to admit when they are wrong.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
M564038
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:57 pm

What kind of absurdities is this?

Of course we europeans drink coffee while we drive!
9/10 top coffee consuming per capita countries are european, and a majority of that coffee is Black filter coffee being enjoyed from large cups, and not having large holders in the cars only results in people having to hold their coffee in their hand.

A morning drive without a 4dl cup off steaming hot black coffee in the center console of the car, would be insufferable after having cleared the car of northern european ice and snow.

You must be some kind of freak of nature.


WIederling wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.


Nobody here drives around with a supersized liquid beverage in a light disposable container.
don't drink drive :-))

There are times your drive and times you eat, drink. no need to have it all at once and 24/7
( bad enough for smokers to fish for their wayward fag causing accidents.)
 
Northpole
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:00 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
There's a simple answer to why US cupholders are larger than European ones, because the cups are larger !!!.
Especially true of Southern Europe where the coffee of choice is an espresso, rather than a US style Grande latte with caramel syrup


" Less is more " :)
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:25 pm

Polot wrote:
Who knew cup holders could be so controversial and rile up so much emotion.

Personally I'd love to see car manufacturers come up with a 'burrito holder' for once, or a 'Cornish pasty' tray, or a "Miso soup" vane.... but something tells me that all we shall see instead will be bigger and bigger cupholders....

Cup holders are actually great at holding burritos and soup (unsure about Cornish pasty). You should give them a try.


There you are, locked in the cockpit while your colleague eats burritos :relieved:
Good moaning!
 
kraz911
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:25 pm

Hello all,
In the late eighties when I worked at the airport, I was taught whenever in a cockpit, Never put anything liquid on the center pedestal. Ever. That's when I also learned anything with sugar with the liquid is the worst if spilled. Maybe they should get those Air Force coffee cups for a couple of grand a piece developed for their C-17 aircraft...
 
JayBCN
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:27 am

Erebus wrote:
So, spilling coffee on the engine controls causes an engine surge.

What if you spilled Red Bull? :spin:


Red Bull verleiht Flüügel ... it will give you wings ... so don’t worry ;)
 
strfyr51
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:41 am

GatorClark wrote:
I see this whole situation as irrefutable evidence we need to scrap ETOPS and go back to trijets and quad jets. We'd NEVER have to divert if we only lost 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 engines.. :duck:

I've seen this happen on a DC-10 and a 727. It has Nothing to DO with the number of Engines and you KNOW that! You're Muckraking! If you don't like Twins? Then don't fly on them! But in the USA? You won't be flying anywhere if at all! The DC-10,727,and L1011 are NOT coming Back and A340's are being scrapped like Hot Cakes!
 
strfyr51
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:46 am

There are Hot cups that could be used safely in the cockpit without spilling. All it would take is for the Airline to Mandate it! Specify what Hot cups may be for cockpit use and Ban any cups in the cockpit that do not comply! It will become a UNION issue in about 10 seconds. but? If that's what it takes? Then that's what it takes!
 
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:48 am

Jon O gave us the A vs B on this.

A350:

Image

B787:

Image

Ref: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 5079145472
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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mileduets
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:47 am

Evidently the cup holder issue theory can be buried, as there are enough cup- and bottle holders available in a A350. :-)
Nevertheless there seem to be lessons that can be learned: I tend to agree that critical buttons and switches should be protected to the effect that clumsy behavior, forgetfulness, minor neglect or sabotage attempts don't lead to major system outages. I hate to think that a plane can be made dysfunctional by simply pouring a cup of coffee or can of beverage over the center console.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:10 am

I love that this thread has devolved into a stereotype war and that the 787 pic comes with a 1/2 gallon bucket of Coke... :mrgreen:

...At least it narrows down the possible operators of that particular frame.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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scbriml
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:15 am

Francoflier wrote:
I love that this thread has devolved into a stereotype war and that the 787 pic comes with a 1/2 gallon bucket of Coke... :mrgreen:

...At least it narrows down the possible operators of that particular frame.


Is that duct tape I see above the 787 cup? I thought the 787 fastener issue was well behind us. :duck:
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N14AZ
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:52 am

scbriml wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
I love that this thread has devolved into a stereotype war and that the 787 pic comes with a 1/2 gallon bucket of Coke... :mrgreen:

...At least it narrows down the possible operators of that particular frame.


Is that duct tape I see above the 787 cup? I thought the 787 fastener issue was well behind us. :duck:

I think this is a rather old picture. It’s taken in the cockpit of the prototype N787BA.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
Polot wrote:
Who knew cup holders could be so controversial and rile up so much emotion.

Indeed, they are deemed to be a plot by the US to undermine European culture.


One could indeed argue that!!! :checkmark:

That's a good one, you made me chuckle! :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
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par13del
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:39 pm

Erebus wrote:
Heinkel wrote:
We had to learn, that spilled coffed on an airliners center console can lead to an engine shutdown (and theoretically to a dual engine shutdown), fire and smoke and a loss of communication. Those events in a big airliner in cruise are really dangerous. Not to compare with a ruined keyboard on a desk.

As mentioned before, in the automotive industry the possible damages of spillt drinks are known and the better OEMs protect their cars against it. Even more surprising, that it looks like this problem is not known to the OEMs of civilian airliners.


Yes, but what could be the solution to this?

Methinks that asdf's post # 75 is the way to go about this, aside from grounding thousands of aircraft and redesigning the cockpit electronics to be spill-proof.

Now that that the regulators and the a/c OEM's know that fluids can cause the engines on a long distance twins to surge and shut down, maybe just maybe they should do more than simply not selling their a/c to American's who tend to use massive cups in their cockpits?

How about taking a page out of your computer desktop and designing a plastic mold to place over the center console where sensitive electronics reside, you know, like the plastic dust cover that you place over your keyboard after you turn the computer off for the night? The only memory item on that checklist would be for the OEM, place coffee cover over console before delivering a/c to client.
 
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:52 pm

mileduets wrote:
Evidently the cup holder issue theory can be buried, as there are enough cup- and bottle holders available in a A350. :-)
Nevertheless there seem to be lessons that can be learned: I tend to agree that critical buttons and switches should be protected to the effect that clumsy behavior, forgetfulness, minor neglect or sabotage attempts don't lead to major system outages. I hate to think that a plane can be made dysfunctional by simply pouring a cup of coffee or can of beverage over the center console.

The twitter thread the photos came from is just as dysfunctional. It suggests the A350 cup holders were sized to hold French tea cups not American coffee cups.

Francoflier wrote:
I love that this thread has devolved into a stereotype war and that the 787 pic comes with a 1/2 gallon bucket of Coke... :mrgreen:

...At least it narrows down the possible operators of that particular frame.

Yep, I picked that one photo out of the three available just to reinforce the stereotype.

But the beverage is not Coke, it's a fruit smoothie.

Given this, my vote is the photo was taken in Seattle! :-)

N14AZ wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
I love that this thread has devolved into a stereotype war and that the 787 pic comes with a 1/2 gallon bucket of Coke... :mrgreen:

...At least it narrows down the possible operators of that particular frame.

Is that duct tape I see above the 787 cup? I thought the 787 fastener issue was well behind us. :duck:

I think this is a rather old picture. It’s taken in the cockpit of the prototype N787BA.

The display has a date on it from 2011.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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zeke
Posts: 14987
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:56 pm

par13del wrote:
Now that that the regulators and the a/c OEM's know that fluids can cause the engines on a long distance twins to surge and shut down, maybe just maybe they should do more than simply not selling their a/c to American's who tend to use massive cups in their cockpits?

How about taking a page out of your computer desktop and designing a plastic mold to place over the center console where sensitive electronics reside, you know, like the plastic dust cover that you place over your keyboard after you turn the computer off for the night? The only memory item on that checklist would be for the OEM, place coffee cover over console before delivering a/c to client.


The design is quite deliberate and is very similar on all airliners. Air from the cockpit is at a positive pressure and drawn past the panels into the voids which provides cooling. The air continues through an outflow duct which has a smoke detector in it. The design is dictated by FAR 25 cockpit smoke removal requirements. The UPS accident in UAE is an example of what happens when positive pressure is not maintained in the cockpit.

From FAR 25.795

Flightdeck smoke protection. Means must be provided to limit entry of smoke, fumes, and noxious gases into the flightdeck.

From AC 25.795

Flightdeck ventilation systems are designed to supply relatively large quantities of air to meet the ventilation and temperature requirements. It has been shown in airplanes that, if the rate of airflow is sufficient, the airflow can prevent smoke and fumes and noxious gases from entering the flightdeck by creating a small differential air pressure between the flightdeck and adjacent compartments.
This pressure boundary drives air from the flightdeck into adjacent compartments through gaps and openings. The velocity of that airflow is related to the size of the gaps and the amount of the pressure differential. With the flightdeck door closed, a pressure boundary can develop.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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PPVLC
Posts: 272
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:44 pm

ss278 wrote:
Fate is the Hunter.


First thing that sprung to my mind too!
Cabin crew L188 707 727 737 767 A300 DC10 MD11 777 747
 
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Moose135
Posts: 3147
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Cup holder should be also big enough to hold a snow globe while driving to your beloved... (... I know, it’s getting old, but i cannot resist)

A snow globe reference is always on point!
:rotfl:
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:37 pm

Can MGM just remake the movie in color already!

It was kind of entertaining the first time on the big screen!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
flyer0889
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:30 am

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:55 pm

zeke wrote:
asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee


Comments like that are plain dumb, no way in the world will an AD be issued, there is no airworthiness issue.

It would be like issuing an AD saying not to hit power poles, buildings, or other aircraft on the ground. It does nothing for something 99.98% of the people already avoid by looking out the window.

The only thing that needs to be changed is for cabin crew to pass the drinks on the side where they are supposed to, and not over the pedestal where they are not supposed to.


Cabin Crew from one of the US3 here. Our procedures do no dictate how or where we pass cups to the pilots...their procedures only indicate to not place beverages on the center console. Nothing about passing over the controls. So is it a best practice? After reading this discussion, I totally get it. Is it a requirement at all airlines? no.

FD crew are equally responsible considering they reach from the center 100% of the time in my 5 years of flying.

Is there a source showing that passing the beverage was the cause of the spillage? The number of open containers in the FD is a bigger concern to me. We have cups with lids for the FD and many of our guys opt for the standard cup to avoid styrofoam. I think a lot can be changed and retrained.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
SheddingVortex wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Don't you get cupholders with these things?

Europeans don’t like cup holders. ;)

You do know that comes across as elitist, right?

YoungDon wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The folding tray in the Airbus cockpits are nice. But they're not big solid cupholders like you get in a Boeing.

I think it's funny how these somewhat stereotypical things are found in even aircraft design. In European cars the cupholders are small and few, in American cars they're big and plentyful.

So true. I remember an 80s BMW my mom had didn't even have cupholders. Crazy to think about today.

My mid-00s BMW has thin retracting cup holders that are small and subject to jamming.

A friend spilled a sugary drink on one then pushed the cup holder back into the dash, and I could never get it out again since the sugar dried and hardened.

I was told by the salesman that they were fitted with reluctance as a condescension to American preferences.

Clearly they were not very well thought out.



Haha, maybe it's a BMW thing. I had the same issue in my '97 BMW 5-series. The cupholders were an intricate folding design, and way too small to use for any bottles. You could buy aftermarket third party cupholders though.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:03 pm

Young people, the spoiled, and millennials, genXers, etc. will never know the advanced technology story and history behind the lowly cup holder. Yep that is all it was back then!

Gee did this invention really simplify things back then.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/328951722 ... sitedetail
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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