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Heinkel
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:41 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
SheddingVortex wrote:
Europeans don’t like cup holders. ;)

You do know that comes across as elitist, right?

YoungDon wrote:
So true. I remember an 80s BMW my mom had didn't even have cupholders. Crazy to think about today.

My mid-00s BMW has thin retracting cup holders that are small and subject to jamming.

A friend spilled a sugary drink on one then pushed the cup holder back into the dash, and I could never get it out again since the sugar dried and hardened.

I was told by the salesman that they were fitted with reluctance as a condescension to American preferences.

Clearly they were not very well thought out.



Haha, maybe it's a BMW thing. I had the same issue in my '97 BMW 5-series. The cupholders were an intricate folding design, and way too small to use for any bottles. You could buy aftermarket third party cupholders though.


"Cupholders" are made to hold cups and soda cans. Not bottles or XXL-mugs. In that case they would be called "bottle holders".

Standard cupholders in German cars are designed to hold a standard 0.33 l soda can. This has a diameter of rough 65 mm.

There are special tapered insulated mugs available, which have a diameter of 65 mm on the lower half, which fit perfectly into the cup holders. A perfect gift for every BMW or Mercedes owner. I use one daily.

Some vehicles (SMART for example) also offer real "bottle holders", which holds a 1 liter bottle. I've installed one in my wife's SMART.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:17 pm

This is not a cupholder problem (but for real, chill out over cupholders everyone, sheesh.)

This is an A350 problem.

It is, sorry. How many ***in-flight shutdowns of engines*** have we heard of due to spilled coffee!? As if coffee has never been spilled in any other plane.

The A350 is a fine aircraft, Airbus makes good planes, pilots should be more careful, blah blah blah. Spilled coffee is never a good thing anywhere but it should not SHUT DOWN ENGINES!!!

Mitigate it in the short term, make a fix. 100% of A350s for decades aren't all going to avoid liquid forever...
 
cat3appr50
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:38 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
This is not a cupholder problem (but for real, chill out over cupholders everyone, sheesh.)

This is an A350 problem.

It is, sorry. How many ***in-flight shutdowns of engines*** have we heard of due to spilled coffee!? As if coffee has never been spilled in any other plane.

The A350 is a fine aircraft, Airbus makes good planes, pilots should be more careful, blah blah blah. Spilled coffee is never a good thing anywhere but it should not SHUT DOWN ENGINES!!!

Mitigate it in the short term, make a fix. 100% of A350s for decades aren't all going to avoid liquid forever...


Couldn't agree more DeltaMD90: One large coffee (or any soft drink, etc.) spilled, potentially L engine goes out (and can't be restarted as happened in this incident)...and then R engine goes out (and can't be restarted as well)...and then God help the innocent passengers in the back end, especially if the flight is beyond the glide range from an acceptable emergency landing location. If a coffee (or other) spill in the cockpit can take out one engine, then it just seems frighteningly logical that it could potentially take out the second engine as well.

Not understanding the joking and laughter about this incident (and the same coffee/engine issue before this one) in some comments. This is a serious scenario. So, where's the regulators on this one?
 
GatorClark
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:03 am

strfyr51 wrote:
GatorClark wrote:
I see this whole situation as irrefutable evidence we need to scrap ETOPS and go back to trijets and quad jets. We'd NEVER have to divert if we only lost 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 engines.. :duck:

I've seen this happen on a DC-10 and a 727. It has Nothing to DO with the number of Engines and you KNOW that! You're Muckraking! If you don't like Twins? Then don't fly on them! But in the USA? You won't be flying anywhere if at all! The DC-10,727,and L1011 are NOT coming Back and A340's are being scrapped like Hot Cakes!


Yeah I know.. It was sarcasm and an attempt at dry humor.
 
planecane
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:51 am

x1234 wrote:
If my iPhone can be waterproof why can't the cockpit be?

It could be but would add weight as well as design, assembly and repair complexity. Your iPhone doesn't have any lever-like handles going into it.

Very different design requirements. If your autocorrect makes a mistake it is easily corrected. I don't think we want the engine controls to be susceptible to those types of input errors.
 
reltney
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:19 am

Revelation wrote:
asdf wrote:
I got told that there are rumors that there will be issued a AD and respective crews from the next D-check of the respective frame on will have to use this specialized aircraft drinking container for their coffee

+1 for sippy cups being the expedient solution to this airworthiness crisis.


ITS NOT...we have used the sippy cup for years and I saw one dropped in the cockpit....boom... when it broke open, hell broke loose. Plane went to the hangar..... sippy cup whatever might reduce 50% but I have had a chunk of ice spit from the vent and it went down the gap where the throttle arm protruded from.....we did not even try to start engines....to the hangar it went....
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crjflyboy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:40 am

No more liquids in the cockpit .. Liquid free zone

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a350- ... 61.article

This is really going to bite for the crew
 
xwb565
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:53 am

They have defined a liquid free zone within the cockpit... not made the whole cockpit a liquid free zone.
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:10 am

xwb565 wrote:
They have defined a liquid free zone within the cockpit... not made the whole cockpit a liquid free zone.



I don’t think that is really anything that is new, Airbus has this in place already and was in the manuals before the A350 started flying.

From https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/tidy-coc ... fe-flight/

“ Other common situations are regularly heard of:

Coffee cups placed on the glare shield or pedestal: unexpected turbulence or unintentional bumping by the crew causes fluid to be spilled onto the cockpit control panels. Beverage spill onto electronic equipment may not necessarily have an immediate effect on the flight, but at best, it can lead to an early and expensive overhaul of the equipment.
Books placed on the glare shield or pedestal: these fall off and may operate some switches or pushbuttons, such as a fuel lever being pushed off, or even de-select a radio frequency.
Forgotten pens, cutlery (during meals) or clipboards: as small as they can be, they can get jammed in the controls – typically the rudder pedals – when they fall on the floor and move during flight.
Each one of the above incidents must serve as important reminders of the critical need to ensure that items are properly stowed and secured before AND during flight.”

“ First, items that are brought in a cockpit must be put and stowed in their dedicated compartment:

Cups in the cup holders.
Headsets not in use, on the hook stowage.
Books and paper, if any, in the lateral stowage.
Trash in the waste bin in the lateral console.
Meal trays on the floor behind the flight crew. The flight attendants should collect the meal trays as soon as possible.
Personal equipment properly secured in the various stowage areas. The Pilot Pocket in particular, is the answer to where to stow valuable items such as a portable GPS or cell phone.
Flight bags should be kept closed after obtaining whatever was necessary.”


Did you know ?

Airbus Clean cockpit philosophy is available in FCTM NO-010 GENERAL-Clean cockpit”
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xwb565
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:22 am

The EASA AD can be found here

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2020-0020-E
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:32 pm

zeke wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
They have defined a liquid free zone within the cockpit... not made the whole cockpit a liquid free zone.


I don’t think that is really anything that is new, Airbus has this in place already and was in the manuals before the A350 started flying.

Yes, and the interstate highway near my house has signs saying the speed limit is 55 miles per hour.

I guess this means they can't really address the root cause, moisture causing a switch to trip and sending inconsistent data to the EEC which commanded a high pressure valve to shut off.

Anyone have links for the following?

Airbus A350 AFM TR 123 Issue 1 dated 05 February 2020.

Airbus FOT 999.0006/20 original issue dated 31 January 2020.
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
I guess this means they can't really address the root cause, moisture causing a switch to trip and sending inconsistent data to the EEC which commanded a high pressure valve to shut off.


Are you suggesting pouring a cup of coffee on the centre console of any other aircraft apart from an A350 will not result in an engine shutting down ?

They are not talking about moisture, they are talking about a cup of coffee.


Revelation wrote:
Anyone have links for the following?

Airbus A350 AFM TR 123 Issue 1 dated 05 February 2020.

Airbus FOT 999.0006/20 original issue dated 31 January 2020.


Yes I have them and some other updates.

You can download it from http://www.airbusworld.com/
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DeltaMD90
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess this means they can't really address the root cause, moisture causing a switch to trip and sending inconsistent data to the EEC which commanded a high pressure valve to shut off.


Are you suggesting pouring a cup of coffee on the centre console of any other aircraft apart from an A350 will not result in an engine shutting down ?

They are not talking about moisture, they are talking about a cup of coffee.


I don't know, do we have any other instance of this happening to any other aircraft besides the A350?

Maybe it's just a coincidence/bad luck, or maybe there are other aircraft. But it's happened a couple times with the new A350 that hasn't been around that long

It's an A350 problem.
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:21 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't know, do we have any other instance of this happening to any other aircraft besides the A350?


Sure it happens from time to time, the result all depends on how much is spilt and where. Like the report I provided earlier in this thread where it resulted in a cockpit fire on a 737. On all newer aircraft, the fuel cutoff switches are just electrical switches, the outcome would be the same. The sugar in coffee is a great conductor.

There is no requirement at under any regulation for food or drink to be consumed on the flight deck. There is no certification standard, eg the console must be able to wristband the spillage of a 12 oz coffee that’s contains 1 oz or milk and 1 oz of syrup. There is no similar certification standard in the cabin, reason being they are operator specific choices.

As one cabin crew member for the US3 posted earlier on this thread, they had no idea not to pass liquids over the centre console. The crew member said they had never been told not to, and I would put that down to the people writing their manuals and conducting their training probably being cabin crew that got tired of flying and took up office roles. I would wager they had never seen the manufacturers cabin crew operations manual, FCTM, or other documents that say not to do that. It’s not the crew members fault, they just never received the information.

Other operators know not to out coffee cups up on the glare shield, food trays on the centre console, or liquids where they can spill, Airbus already tells people not to do that. Airbus still gets reports from operators that do, because common sense is not all that common. Now they have sent out pretty pictures to tell people what I see is nothing but common sense.

This is not something A350 specific, it comes up on here from time to time viewtopic.php?t=588079

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12121669
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Groundside
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Interesting that the Flightglobal article (29 Jan) stated it was the EEC that commanded the high pressure shutoff valve. That maybe something new to the A350.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess this means they can't really address the root cause, moisture causing a switch to trip and sending inconsistent data to the EEC which commanded a high pressure valve to shut off.

Are you suggesting pouring a cup of coffee on the centre console of any other aircraft apart from an A350 will not result in an engine shutting down ?

Nope, that's the opposite of what I am suggesting. EASA knows the kind of conductivity provided by coffee inside the console will not just shut down an engine, but also make it unrestartable. Sure, it's possible that other spills cause other outcomes, but we have two different incidents producing the same result. This suggests to me at least that we should be able to do better than this.

Are you suggesting these two incidents should be treated as a random coincidence?

zeke wrote:
They are not talking about moisture, they are talking about a cup of coffee.

Moisture is a subset of a cup of coffee. We've had other members posting that moisture in the cockpit has caused similar problems in the past. Now we know there's a mechanism that stops an engine and makes it unrestartable. That raises the bar IMO.

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anyone have links for the following?

Airbus A350 AFM TR 123 Issue 1 dated 05 February 2020.

Airbus FOT 999.0006/20 original issue dated 31 January 2020.


Yes I have them and some other updates.

You can download it from http://www.airbusworld.com/

Thanks, I'll take a look later.
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
Are you suggesting these two incidents should be treated as a random coincidence?


I believe as least one of the events the coffee spill was not that particular flight, it was on a previous flight and not reported as it didn’t have any adverse outcome when it happened.

The gum like residual caused the problem.
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Balerit
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:08 pm

zeke wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Don't you get cupholders with these things?



On the A350 there is 3 cup holders which can hold anything up to around a 600 ml bottle, and one larger bottle holder that will hold a 1-1.5 liter bottle per side. Drinks are supposed to be passed on the window side in any aircraft.

Image


Maybe it was the lapdancing that was the problem.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
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Balerit
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:09 pm

zeke wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Don't you get cupholders with these things?



On the A350 there is 3 cup holders which can hold anything up to around a 600 ml bottle, and one larger bottle holder that will hold a 1-1.5 liter bottle per side. Drinks are supposed to be passed on the window side in any aircraft.

Image


Maybe it was the lapdancing that was the problem.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
majano
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:49 pm

Delete pls.
 
majano
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
zeke wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
They have defined a liquid free zone within the cockpit... not made the whole cockpit a liquid free zone.


I don’t think that is really anything that is new, Airbus has this in place already and was in the manuals before the A350 started flying.

Yes, and the interstate highway near my house has signs saying the speed limit is 55 miles per hour.

If you would expect pilots to ignore rules, just because some motorists often do so, I would not want you anywhere near a transport class airliner cockpit.

Some time ago Zeke stated on these boards that his instructor told him that IFR stands for I Follow Rules. I would expect of persons entrusted with the lives of so many to follow rules, especially basic rules.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:15 pm

This is pretty embarrassing. I mean I've spilled coffee in my car tons of times and the engine kept running each time!
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:38 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
reltney wrote:
As a pilot, this condition is totally unacceptable. At our airline we have sealed cups however they bust open after a drop. I watched a soda can bust open on a console with the loss of only 1 radio. I have seen condensation drip from vents in the cockpit and also vents that spit ice balls in humid destinations....
Would YOU let your family fly on a plane where a drop of a drink could shut down an engine! Not my family. Totally unacceptable! Find a way to seal the critical area before the next flight.

Aircraft is unairthworthy..... indisputable..

Fix the damn thing.



Or - as a pilot - act responsibly with your liquids, and treat your machine properly. Drinks should *never* be anywhere near the centre pedestal on any aircraft...


Exactly. Nobody is holding their full cups of coffee above their private notebooks or other expensive electronic. Why would you do so above the center pedestal of a highly electronic machine in 11km altitude at 85% the speed of sound?
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tcas69
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:50 pm

When flying A330/340 15 years ago it was standard procedure in my company to serve drinks always on the window side, cumbersome but safe
 
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ua900
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:55 pm

I don't need cupholders in a Mercedes / BMW / Audi when traveling down the Autobahn in Germany at 280 km/h / 175 mph. In fact, I might not even listen to the radio or try to make a call to my mom. Especially when there's fog, 150m / 450ft visibility and the frozen road alert goes off. I've got 2-3 lanes, the right one constantly blocked by dutch campers or big rigs, who are limited to 100 km/h / 60 mph. If there's an elephant race or some dodo in a Mitsu going left because they do 105 km/h / 65 mph then I've got about 5-10 seconds to make a decision.

In the US on the other hand, it's just 130 km/h / 80 mph, with a bunch of kids in the back and an order of In-N-Out / Chick-fil-A on my lap, needless to say, that comes with a large drink. While I have to watch out for people who may pass on the right, are on the phone, doing their nails or aren't used to driving in the rain / snow, I also frequently have 4-8 lanes and a country so big that driving much faster wouldn't really make a difference due to constant fuel stops. Plus people are way more relaxed about right of way type issues. I'll feel very similar in a Skyhawk on VFR on a really slow and nice day.

Moving back to the commercial world though, I'd be busy flying the plane and enjoying the scenery. Don't get why you need to have a coffee in the center console area when there are cup holders on the sides, along with the ability to adjust the seat to facilitiate periods of drinking and eating something. Haste makes waste, on the Autobahn as much as in the air. Given what's at stake, people should take their risks accordingly. This isn't a Minivan on a Sunday afternoon, this is one of the most amazing machines known to mankind. If you've worked hard to earn the right to pilot one, don't risk that because of a 5 cent cup of soda :-)
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Myriad
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:00 pm

Maybe just fly upside down when drinking. Then put the cover back on go back to normal ;)
 
crjflyboy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:11 pm

A movie released in 1964 runs along a similar story to this ... many USA stars were in it, but it was B level film

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_Is_the_Hunter_(film)

Coffee spilled on the console ... shorting the electronics out
 
Blotto
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess this means they can't really address the root cause, moisture causing a switch to trip and sending inconsistent data to the EEC which commanded a high pressure valve to shut off.

Are you suggesting pouring a cup of coffee on the centre console of any other aircraft apart from an A350 will not result in an engine shutting down ?

Nope, that's the opposite of what I am suggesting. EASA knows the kind of conductivity provided by coffee inside the console will not just shut down an engine, but also make it unrestartable. Sure, it's possible that other spills cause other outcomes, but we have two different incidents producing the same result. This suggests to me at least that we should be able to do better than this.

Are you suggesting these two incidents should be treated as a random coincidence?


No we don't. Have a look at TFU 31.19.00002 and the referenced webinar. It's pretty clear that the error in both cases differ although the result is similar. It's not like that the same switches where affected in both cases. Which, IMHO, makes this pretty problematic.
Wonder what happened to the concept of testing....
 
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mighluss
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:21 pm

Reading this topic, I somehow started thinking about Bob Hoover XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pvG_ZSnCc
Miquel.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:34 pm

mighluss wrote:
Reading this topic, I somehow started thinking about Bob Hoover XD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pvG_ZSnCc


He had a set didn't he ...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:30 pm

It's see it's now pilot-blaming season again. The EAD confirms this is a serious design flaw. Only by good luck there hasn't been two terrible accidents.

cat3appr50 wrote:
So, where's the regulators on this one?


Keeping us "safely" away from the MAX apparently.

xwb565 wrote:
The EASA AD can be found here

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2020-0020-E


My question that the EAD answers is that this issue could shutdown both engines. This is not a joking matter. This had better not be the only action the EASA/FAA takes. This issue needs to be fixed immediately. Everytime an A350 takes to the air, there's a real risk of it turning into a glider. Counting on pilots to not have an accident with their drink even when following rules (or to not encounter turbulence at the wrong time) is simply not a long-term solution.

zeke wrote:
This is not something A350 specific, it comes up on here from time to time viewtopic.php?t=588079

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12121669


That's not an inflight shutdown of an engine. It's not in the same league as far as danger. It was also with a 777, in which thousands have been flying for decades without a systematic problem to have surfaced. Apples and oranges.

majano wrote:
If you would expect pilots to ignore rules, just because some motorists often do so, I would not want you anywhere near a transport class airliner cockpit.

Some time ago Zeke stated on these boards that his instructor told him that IFR stands for I Follow Rules. I would expect of persons entrusted with the lives of so many to follow rules, especially basic rules.


Expecting pilots to always follow the rules is not a reasonable expectation. Intentional or not, they do stray outside the lines from time to time. That was the point being made.

What makes this an even larger issue is that the pilots could follow the rules and still have their plane turn into a glider. They could simply fumble their drink and have it spill the wrong way, or an unexpected bump could have a liquid fly where it shouldn't. Have we reduced safety to pure luck? Feels like it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:58 pm

zeke wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't know, do we have any other instance of this happening to any other aircraft besides the A350?


Sure it happens from time to time, the result all depends on how much is spilt and where.

Ok. So again, which airliners besides the A350 have shut down engines?

Not that there can't be other complications nor should we pour coffee on consoles, but I doubt pilots are spilling coffee at much higher rates on A350s than other aircraft. Why the much higher rate of engine shutdowns over it?

(Again, assuming there aren't other aircraft that have engine shutdowns, which you claim "happens from time to time" but haven't shown, and assuming it not coincidences/bad luck)

MSPNWA wrote:
Expecting pilots to always follow the rules is not a reasonable expectation. Intentional or not, they do stray outside the lines from time to time. That was the point being made.

What makes this an even larger issue is that the pilots could follow the rules and still have their plane turn into a glider. They could simply fumble their drink and have it spill the wrong way, or an unexpected bump could have a liquid fly where it shouldn't. Have we reduced safety to pure luck? Feels like it.

:checkmark:
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:05 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
(Again, assuming there aren't other aircraft that have engine shutdowns, which you claim "happens from time to time" but haven't shown, and assuming it not coincidences/bad luck)


When you read the thread from a few years ago that is in my previous post you might change your mind.

To be clear, you have made statements on this thread that this is only an A350 issue, where is your data not show that other types would not have similar issues ? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Can you tell me when you last poured a cup of coffee over the engine master switches on every aircraft type in service, where are the published results of that experiment ? What sort of coffee did you use, how much cream, how much sugar ?

I assume you have done the experiments as the manufacturers haven’t. You are the one claiming the A350 is only aircraft this impacts without showing any evidence. I am saying every aircraft is at risk and as stated on the earlier thread crew members from various airlines say they do not pass liquids over the centre console. But we heard from a US3 crew member on this thread that claims to never have been told that.

Why do you think so many airlines were not passing drinks over the centre console even before the A350 started flying ? Why have that procedure in place well before then A350 entered service if it is only the A350 that has the issue ? Why do you think Airbus had published procedures decades ago ?

Your absence of evidence does not support your claims that this is only an A350 issue.

Do the experiment, publish the results, and get back to us. It should be an illuminating read.

P.S. you would probably have lots to time to write up your results, I think even a police officer, a prosecutor, and a Judge would understand that pouring coffee over the centre console is not something that should be done.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:53 am

MSPNWA wrote:
My question that the EAD answers is that this issue could shutdown both engines. This is not a joking matter. This had better not be the only action the EASA/FAA takes. This issue needs to be fixed immediately. Everytime an A350 takes to the air, there's a real risk of it turning into a glider. Counting on pilots to not have an accident with their drink even when following rules (or to not encounter turbulence at the wrong time) is simply not a long-term solution.


There is no evidence that supports the idea of both engines being at risk. They are still investigating the issue and thankfully don't jump to conclusions. Hence the "as long as we don't know be extra carefully with liquids"-approach
 
MSPNWA
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:24 am

Blotto wrote:
There is no evidence that supports the idea of both engines being at risk. They are still investigating the issue and thankfully don't jump to conclusions. Hence the "as long as we don't know be extra carefully with liquids"-approach


https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2020-0020-E

"Results of the preliminary technical investigations indicate abnormal operation of the components of the ENG START panel or ECP due to liquid spillage in the system.

This condition, if not corrected, could lead to a dual engine IFSD, possibly resulting in a forced landing with consequent damage to the aeroplane and injury to occupants."

I didn't say what I said for the fun of it.
 
ei146
Posts: 318
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:01 am

MSPNWA wrote:
...
I didn't say what I said for the fun of it.


All true and fine and I agree that a better permanent solution should be found and probably will be found.
But what I can't understand: Do pilots really need a sip of liquid every few seconds to survive and fullfill there duties? I am an engineer and we have a simple and strict rule (and it was the same in all jobs I had so far): No food or drink in any lab or near to any delicate machinery. Period. And it may come as a surprise, but millions of people in this world survive and perform well in responsible jobs without a mug of coffee within arm's reach.
So until a better solution is found: Is it so hard for pilots to get up from their seat once or twice per hour and go to the rear of the cockpit to drink something?
 
basspaul
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:03 pm

As I mentioned before, this a fault analysis issue. The risk of fluid spillage is non zero, you need to analyse the consequences. This was a near miss, a great learning opportunity for the industry and regulators.

For those mentioning rules to get around this: yes, you could ban fluids in the cockpit during ops. You can't ban the cleaning crews from having liquids with them to do their job, the frost melting after after cold soak, etc, etc.
 
TheWorm123
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:06 pm

GatorClark wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
GatorClark wrote:
I see this whole situation as irrefutable evidence we need to scrap ETOPS and go back to trijets and quad jets. We'd NEVER have to divert if we only lost 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 engines.. :duck:

I've seen this happen on a DC-10 and a 727. It has Nothing to DO with the number of Engines and you KNOW that! You're Muckraking! If you don't like Twins? Then don't fly on them! But in the USA? You won't be flying anywhere if at all! The DC-10,727,and L1011 are NOT coming Back and A340's are being scrapped like Hot Cakes!


Yeah I know.. It was sarcasm and an attempt at dry humor.

It was a clear joke as well, I’m austistic and could tell. I think some posters here just have a soapbox agenda.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
Heinkel
Posts: 282
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:14 pm

Are not most of the electrical/electronical devices and switches in the center console made by external component suppliers and not the OEM itself?

So question: Who built these electrical/electronical devices, which can be knocked out by a spilled cuppa coffee?

Was there no requirement for moisture protection in the specification sheet? As mentioned before, at least on premium cars, this is part of the specification.
Every light fixture for use in a domestic bathroom is better protected.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:31 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Blotto wrote:
There is no evidence that supports the idea of both engines being at risk. They are still investigating the issue and thankfully don't jump to conclusions. Hence the "as long as we don't know be extra carefully with liquids"-approach


https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2020-0020-E

"Results of the preliminary technical investigations indicate abnormal operation of the components of the ENG START panel or ECP due to liquid spillage in the system.

This condition, if not corrected, could lead to a dual engine IFSD, possibly resulting in a forced landing with consequent damage to the aeroplane and injury to occupants."

I didn't say what I said for the fun of it.


Once again, have a look at the TFU at Airbusworld, read it, read the attached documents. They basically say that the issue can't be reproduced by the supplier. And if you can't assess what happened then no conclusion can be drawn. The statement in the AD is basically the simple logic "if it happens on one engine, prove to me it can't happen on both engines". Which is totally fine, that's their job and it doesn't make sense to not do that AD. Given that in both cases ENG 2 was shutdown, we can't really say if ENG 1 is at risk.
 
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par13del
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:43 pm

Blotto wrote:
There is no evidence that supports the idea of both engines being at risk. They are still investigating the issue and thankfully don't jump to conclusions. Hence the "as long as we don't know be extra carefully with liquids"-approach

Why would they investigate the engines, do they believe that the liquid spill made its way to the engines?
 
ei146
Posts: 318
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:33 pm

basspaul wrote:
For those mentioning rules to get around this: yes, you could ban fluids in the cockpit during ops. You can't ban the cleaning crews from having liquids with them to do their job, the frost melting after after cold soak, etc, etc.


I didn't say the those rules should be the final solution, but they are a step in the right direction until there is something better. And of course you can have rules for cleaning crews. Do you think any cleaner would be allowed to enter a data center with a big bucket of wash water? There are cleaning procedures for such environments.
And regarding the possible condensation: Don't you think there might be a difference in the amount of damage some drops of condensation consisting of clear water can cause compared to a big mug of coffee with cream and sugar or half a litre of Coca Cola loaded with sugar and other interesting stuff like various acids? Distilled water is a pretty good insulator. It's the impurities that make it a conductor.
Drop your mobile phone into distilled water, take it out, remove the batterie, dry it carefully. It will most likely survive. Tap water: chances getting worse, but still you might have a working phone. Coffee or Cola, no chance.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:39 pm

zeke wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
(Again, assuming there aren't other aircraft that have engine shutdowns, which you claim "happens from time to time" but haven't shown, and assuming it not coincidences/bad luck)


When you read the thread from a few years ago that is in my previous post you might change your mind.

To be clear, you have made statements on this thread that this is only an A350 issue, where is your data not show that other types would not have similar issues ? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Can you tell me when you last poured a cup of coffee over the engine master switches on every aircraft type in service, where are the published results of that experiment ? What sort of coffee did you use, how much cream, how much sugar ?

I assume you have done the experiments as the manufacturers haven’t. You are the one claiming the A350 is only aircraft this impacts without showing any evidence. I am saying every aircraft is at risk and as stated on the earlier thread crew members from various airlines say they do not pass liquids over the centre console. But we heard from a US3 crew member on this thread that claims to never have been told that.

Why do you think so many airlines were not passing drinks over the centre console even before the A350 started flying ? Why have that procedure in place well before then A350 entered service if it is only the A350 that has the issue ? Why do you think Airbus had published procedures decades ago ?

Your absence of evidence does not support your claims that this is only an A350 issue.

Do the experiment, publish the results, and get back to us. It should be an illuminating read.

P.S. you would probably have lots to time to write up your results, I think even a police officer, a prosecutor, and a Judge would understand that pouring coffee over the centre console is not something that should be done.

Right. Well I'm obviously not going to do that nor do I have enough time to, though I agree with "lack of evidence doesn't prove things" (which you should apply to the other thread in 737 vs A320 overruns, IIRC you essentially say "well there are different operators, routes, training, etc so therefore what else could it be, it has to be a 737 issue," which is fallacious since you aren't actually pointing to a reason, which may or may actually not exist)

But you're right in a regard, I'll walk it back. I won't be so 100% about it (I never was in my mind but no one can read my mind.) From all that I've read, I haven't seen (though I acknowledge there may exist) other engines shutting down from spills, only the A350. I also highly doubt over the decades and tens of thousands of daily flights that no one spills coffee and for some reason it only happens in the A350. Therefore, to me, it appears to be an issue with the A350, which is a great aircraft I'll hopefully pilot one day. Of course spilling coffee on consoles is bad but I'm sure it happens and I haven't seen any other engines get shut down...
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:40 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
IIRC you essentially say "well there are different operators, routes, training, etc so therefore what else could it be, it has to be a 737 issue," which is fallacious since you aren't actually pointing to a reason, which may or may actually not exist).


You are lying I did not say that. I said Pegasus fleet is 60% A320 and 40% 737, they operate over the same network, from the same home airport, with the same operations manual, and same training department. I asked what external factors could be attributed to these incidents.

If it was the aircraft, Ryanair would make the news every month with their fleet size.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
MeCe
Posts: 288
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 pm

I have seen burned control panels, some smoke in cockpit but never heard of engine shutdown. All panels I worked somewhat spill proof may be they are so unlucky direct spill on cutoff switches caused the problem.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25749
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Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:57 pm

MeCe wrote:
I have seen burned control panels, some smoke in cockpit but never heard of engine shutdown. All panels I worked somewhat spill proof may be they are so unlucky direct spill on cutoff switches caused the problem.

Yet we have two incidents relatively close in time with the same cause (liquid spilled) and effect (high pressure cutoff valve turned off).

What's really problematic is the engines were not restartable afterwords since the valve remains off.

It suggests to me we need to do better, like having an alternate path that is able to activate the high pressure cutoff valve.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:57 pm

ikramerica wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Either that, or provide branded sippy cups for the crews to use? :biggrin:

Maybe a covered cup set into a holder and a long straw ?

Drinking coffee from a straw is not a good idea...


I never understood the appeal of coffee on an airplane. They just don't go together. Coffee is scalding hot, a diuretic, it doesn't hydrate, and can have a laxative effect. Water is a much better option.
 
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Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 25749
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Maybe a covered cup set into a holder and a long straw ?

Drinking coffee from a straw is not a good idea...

I never understood the appeal of coffee on an airplane. They just don't go together. Coffee is scalding hot, a diuretic, it doesn't hydrate, and can have a laxative effect. Water is a much better option.

As long as you use the water to wash down some caffeine pills...

Coffee is just a socially acceptable way to take mild uppers...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:48 pm

zeke wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
IIRC you essentially say "well there are different operators, routes, training, etc so therefore what else could it be, it has to be a 737 issue," which is fallacious since you aren't actually pointing to a reason, which may or may actually not exist).


You are lying I did not say that. I said Pegasus fleet is 60% A320 and 40% 737, they operate over the same network, from the same home airport, with the same operations manual, and same training department. I asked what external factors could be attributed to these incidents.

If it was the aircraft, Ryanair would make the news every month with their fleet size.

I'm not lying, that's what I understood from your post (so not a lie, a misunderstanding.) What you just said makes sense and I agree with, but that's for the other thread.

TTailedTiger wrote:

I never understood the appeal of coffee on an airplane. They just don't go together.

To wake you up? Think that's pretty obvious

I'm not a coffee fan but I've had plenty of flights through the night and try as one may, it's not always easy being 100% awake being on a day schedule and all of the sudden being on nights...

Random aside that no one cares about, my best landing ever was flying through the night, we're all tired, chug a Georgia Coffee (yummy) on approach, and the landing was 100% perfect. The other guys in the cockpit actually cheered. Great times lol
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: A350 engine shutdown incidents linked to cockpit drink spills

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:52 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
zeke wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
IIRC you essentially say "well there are different operators, routes, training, etc so therefore what else could it be, it has to be a 737 issue," which is fallacious since you aren't actually pointing to a reason, which may or may actually not exist).


You are lying I did not say that. I said Pegasus fleet is 60% A320 and 40% 737, they operate over the same network, from the same home airport, with the same operations manual, and same training department. I asked what external factors could be attributed to these incidents.

If it was the aircraft, Ryanair would make the news every month with their fleet size.

I'm not lying, that's what I understood from your post (so not a lie, a misunderstanding.) What you just said makes sense and I agree with, but that's for the other thread.

TTailedTiger wrote:

I never understood the appeal of coffee on an airplane. They just don't go together.

To wake you up? Think that's pretty obvious

I'm not a coffee fan but I've had plenty of flights through the night and try as one may, it's not always easy being 100% awake being on a day schedule and all of the sudden being on nights...

Random aside that no one cares about, my best landing ever was flying through the night, we're all tired, chug a Georgia Coffee (yummy) on approach, and the landing was 100% perfect. The other guys in the cockpit actually cheered. Great times lol


I get appropriate rest. I've managed to live 30 years without coffee to get me through the day.

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