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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:31 am

Boeing's CEO refers to a MCAS activation as a "boundary condition":

“We made an assumption and it was a bad assumption with respect to what a pilot would do when faced with this boundary condition and it was wrong and we all know that," Calhoun said.

Seems to be understating things a bit, no?

Wonder how he would describe the JFK assassination, the Challenger Shuttle explosion, the death of Princess Dianna, the 9/11 attacks, etc.

And has participated in a MAX-7 test flight this week:

Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Ref: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/scie ... d0cc6ecaa9
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prebennorholm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:36 am

Revelation wrote:
Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Huh, the company in its worst crisis in a hundred years because in 2017 to 2019 the MAX makes 124,999 safe flights for every 125,000 flights.

Now the CEO "couldn't have been happier" because it makes one safe flight out of one flight.

Am I the only one who sees bizarre proportions here?

Proving safety has nothing to do with making 500, 5,000, or 500,000 test flights followed by equal number of good landings. Proving safety is producing sound engineering of every detail. Test flights are for showing that engineering was done correctly and left no surprises. They are not for developing safety.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Caymanair
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:37 am

flyingphil wrote:
par13del wrote:
Wonder if they are being too optimistic
https://caymannewsservice.com/2020/02/m ... ce-flight/


Worth reading for the comments from the Cayman islanders :worried:
Got to feel a bit sorry for this small airline as all their future plans were dependant on the 737MAX.



More than a bit. I'd argue KX has been the airline most inconvenienced by this saga. 50% of your fleet grounded, forcing you to operate a completely unrealistic schedule on older, smaller, less efficient aircraft that need to be retired ASAP.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:46 am

Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).
 
kyu
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:57 am

Revelation wrote:
Boeing's CEO refers to a MCAS activation as a "boundary condition":

“We made an assumption and it was a bad assumption with respect to what a pilot would do when faced with this boundary condition and it was wrong and we all know that," Calhoun said.

Seems to be understating things a bit, no?

Wonder how he would describe the JFK assassination, the Challenger Shuttle explosion, the death of Princess Dianna, the 9/11 attacks, etc.

And has participated in a MAX-7 test flight this week:

Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Ref: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/scie ... d0cc6ecaa9

What a sorry clown.
I bet the pilots were even told not to rock the boat too much.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:49 am

wjcandee wrote:
Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).


FOD in 2/3 of 50 checked planes is pretty shocking. It's even more shocking given Boeing's well publicised FOD issue with KC-46s.

Even if some FOD were left in place by suppliers, it's Boeing that's doing final assembly and everything should be checked post-assembly.
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max999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:20 am

scbriml wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).


FOD in 2/3 of 50 checked planes is pretty shocking. It's even more shocking given Boeing's well publicised FOD issue with KC-46s.

Even if some FOD were left in place by suppliers, it's Boeing that's doing final assembly and everything should be checked post-assembly.


I think it's a moot point to debate where the part was assembled or who built the part. Boeing is ultimately responsible for delivering a safe, quality product. The buck stops with Boeing's senior management and finally the board. But it seems like they have been neglecting their responsibilities for a long time already.

Fire the current ones and claw back the compensation for the ones in those positions from at least ten years back.
Last edited by max999 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:21 am

Revelation wrote:
Boeing's CEO refers to a MCAS activation as a "boundary condition":

“We made an assumption and it was a bad assumption with respect to what a pilot would do when faced with this boundary condition and it was wrong and we all know that," Calhoun said.

Seems to be understating things a bit, no?

Wonder how he would describe the JFK assassination, the Challenger Shuttle explosion, the death of Princess Dianna, the 9/11 attacks, etc.

And has participated in a MAX-7 test flight this week:

Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Ref: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/scie ... d0cc6ecaa9



Why does Calhoun sound like the recently fired Muilenburg? Pilots didn't react the way you thought? By not telling them about the system how did the company think they were going to react? Is there a international standard for reacting to situations that are unknown to people out there that they studied? Were they confident enough that most pilots would react the same way to a new situation? I am more concerned that Boeing still seems to think it was the pilots reaction to their MCAS design rather than the design that is the problem.

I guess having been on the board and with his pay tied to the return of the MAX, call me skeptical on whether anything has really changed at the company.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:22 am

“Delays in 737 MAX certification flight may push off Boeing’s goal to win approval by midsummer“

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... id-summer/

Well.. thats a shocker.. more from Dominic Gates who has his finger on the pulse of Boeing.

I also saw that Alaska airlines is talking of a requirement for 200 airliners to replace and expand its existing fleet.

Would you order the 737MAX?
Sure.. you would get a great price..
delivery dates? No guarantees.. if ever
Convincing pilots, flight attendants and passengers to fly on it.. residual value.. higher insurance rates.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).

My understanding,from reports earlier this week, is that the debris is within wing fuel tanks. Wings assembled at Renton?

Assume inspections will also be required on grounded service MAXs and NGs but they may stagger the urgency of inspection on the basis of flight hours i.e. the more hours without problems, the less urgency.

No mention of pigeon carcasses, so we can conclude the Falcons are a lot tidier than the work force.

It would be of interest to know what triggered an internal wing fuel tank inspection in the first instance since this would be unlikely to be a scheduled inspection on stored frames with ~zero hours.

Ray
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:57 am

flyingphil wrote:
“Delays in 737 MAX certification flight may push off Boeing’s goal to win approval by midsummer“

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... id-summer/

Well.. thats a shocker.. more from Dominic Gates who has his finger on the pulse of Boeing.

I also saw that Alaska airlines is talking of a requirement for 200 airliners to replace and expand its existing fleet.

Would you order the 737MAX?
Sure.. you would get a great price..
delivery dates? No guarantees.. if ever
Convincing pilots, flight attendants and passengers to fly on it.. residual value.. higher insurance rates.


From the article:

"Before a certification flight can happen, Boeing must have at least one MAX aircraft ready with all the final fixes and software updates installed. Among the issues to be resolved first are a faulty cockpit indicator light and a decision on whether Boeing must rewire some of the flight control wiring bundles to comply with safety regulations."

Regarding the AOA disagree indicator issue:

"Boeing initially dismissed this as merely a nuisance light that would require a simple software patch and wouldn’t cause a delay. However, engineers have now established that the problem is trickier to fix than first thought. "


The MAX fiasco in six words - "trickier to fix than first thought".
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Asiaflyer
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:59 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Huh, the company in its worst crisis in a hundred years because in 2017 to 2019 the MAX makes 124,999 safe flights for every 125,000 flights.

Now the CEO "couldn't have been happier" because it makes one safe flight out of one flight.

Am I the only one who sees bizarre proportions here?

Proving safety has nothing to do with making 500, 5,000, or 500,000 test flights followed by equal number of good landings. Proving safety is producing sound engineering of every detail. Test flights are for showing that engineering was done correctly and left no surprises. They are not for developing safety.

One was hoping for a more professional approach by Calhoun to change the game to the better for Boeing, but it’s just more of the same. On the other hand he has been in upper management (board) during a good part of the journey, pushing Boeing and it’s employees to where it currently is and approved all the crappy processes over the past years. Could we really expect him to suddenly see everything clear and implement a different way of managing the company?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:02 am

XRAYretired wrote:
No mention of pigeon carcasses, so we can conclude the Falcons are a lot tidier than the work force.


:spit: :rotfl:

XRAYretired wrote:
It would be of interest to know what triggered an internal wing fuel tank inspection in the first instance since this would be unlikely to be a scheduled inspection on stored frames with ~zero hours.


That is a very pertinent question, I've not seen anything indicating how this was first discovered.
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asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:37 am

scbriml wrote:
The MAX fiasco in six words - "trickier to fix than first thought".


yeah

would be a perfect movie name if they will produce a movie of it later .....
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:04 am

asdf wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The MAX fiasco in six words - "trickier to fix than first thought".


yeah

would be a perfect movie name if they will produce a movie of it later .....



Honestly I thought in the beginning of the grounding that it was sort of funny, how things kept appearing that needed more fixes. But it's not even close to funny anymore. It's just shocking how this thing was even allowed to fly in the first place when you consider the amount of issues that have appeared "out of nowhere" in the nearly 1 year since grounding.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:25 am

How many more of these 'issues' until Boeing pulls the plug on this disaster of a program? 10 more? 20 more? 100 more?

Leaving trash in the fuel wings? Seriously, WTF Boeing? If there was FOD in the fuel tanks, that could make a crash much more likely than the MCAS issues.

There seems to be a seriously rotten culture at Boeing. So sad to watch. Growing up, I was in awe at Boeing airplanes and considered them the gold standard.

There's a reason why you don't cut corners.
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:37 am

I expect this all stems from the various FOD found in the wing tanks and behind fuselage cabin insulation panels on the 787 line. Sh*t sticks.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:11 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).


It depends on what the threshold is on acceptable FOD, a metal piece the size of a dime might be OK, but the size of a quarter not. A drill bit stub or two, but rags and boot coverings in 2/3 is far past careless, one in 1,000 could seem plausible from my experience in construction. This could be sabotage, there have been cases where wires are nicked in shipyards.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 pm

The FOD problem can get nasty. It will probably mean all MAX will have to be checked before they can fly again. It gets worse if airlines are forced to check the last NGs.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:05 pm

par13del wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
All in all, the FAA is finally doing its job.

So the head of the FAA saying he will not grant RTS until he personally flies a MAX with his family in it is........
If I was not looking thru fanboy eyes I would say the head of the FAA is being personal rather the professional....but what do I know...


Did he? Literally? I missed that. And its quite unprofessional to state, if true.

On the other hand: people overestimate the influence of single characters, in my opinion. Yes, he is the boss. Yes, his words weigh heavily. But he is far from "the FAA".
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
FOD in 2/3 of 50 checked planes is pretty shocking. It's even more shocking given Boeing's well publicised FOD issue with KC-46s.

Even if some FOD were left in place by suppliers, it's Boeing that's doing final assembly and everything should be checked post-assembly.

It seems that whistle blower who asked the 737 product manager to stand down the entire line so procedures could be improved may have had a point.

The core issue very well could be managers pushing workers to the point where they don't have time or energy to worry about things such as going back to check for FOD, rather than laziness, union membership, Northwestern US moodiness triggered by constant rain, high real estate prices, excessive caffination, grunge rock, yada yada.

scbriml wrote:
From the article:

Yes, but TFA also says:

“We feel good about the software fix to correct it,” said the person familiar with Boeing’s internal efforts. “It will just take some time.”

And:

The second person, the one familiar with Boeing’s internal efforts, said that a certification flight “is likely in April or May” and that rather than any specific issue, the delay is due to “the overall work on the system safety analysis” (SSA).

The SSA requires detailed analysis of all the possible system failures and estimating a probability for each. The painstaking work of combing through the potential faults and their probabilities is taking a lot of time, he said.

So I don't think we have a definitive reason why we aren't seeing the certification flights yet.

CRJockey wrote:
par13del wrote:
So the head of the FAA saying he will not grant RTS until he personally flies a MAX with his family in it is........
If I was not looking thru fanboy eyes I would say the head of the FAA is being personal rather the professional....but what do I know...

Did he? Literally? I missed that. And its quite unprofessional to state, if true.

No, not literally.

The ST article says:

After all these FAA technical reviews are complete, Administrator Dickson has said he won’t give the final clearance for the MAX to fly until he has flown it himself and is “satisfied that I would put my own family on it without a second thought.”

So Dickson said he needs to fly it himself (not sure if an actual airplane or a sim) and will need to be satisfied he would put his own family on it (but didn't say he would actually do so before approval).
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NightStar
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:30 pm

par13del wrote:

So the head of the FAA saying he will not grant RTS until he personally flies a MAX with his family in it is........
If I was not looking thru fanboy eyes I would say the head of the FAA is being personal rather the professional....but what do I know...


This reminds me of the stories related to some of the early steel bridges built in the U.S. during the early years of automobile driving. Many people were nervous about driving across the longer bridges. Publicity stunts were devised to turn public opinion. Some included marching elephants across bridges. It worked in most cases. In many cases, the governor of the state (and probably a few presidents too) was compelled to ride across the bridge in a ceremony which is something we still see today. The hope is that if important people demonstrate they feel perfectly safe, then the average citizen will too.

The American public responds to that type of thing but who knows about the rest of the world? I still think it's overall a good thing for both Boeing and the FAA which both sorely need a restoration of trust. Someone with as much responsibility and authority as him putting his own safety on the line has power in the public mind.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:36 pm

bgm wrote:
How many more of these 'issues' until Boeing pulls the plug on this disaster of a program? 10 more? 20 more? 100 more?

Leaving trash in the fuel wings? Seriously, WTF Boeing? If there was FOD in the fuel tanks, that could make a crash much more likely than the MCAS issues.

There seems to be a seriously rotten culture at Boeing. So sad to watch. Growing up, I was in awe at Boeing airplanes and considered them the gold standard.

There's a reason why you don't cut corners.


It's growing ever-more shocking to me that 300 of these thing were flying innocent passengers and crew around full of so many potential causes for disaster beyond just the MCAS issues. I'm sure many former MAX passengers and crew and feeling pretty fortunate these days that they skirted issues and accidents. The FOD debris for me is kinda the last straw, as a former Boeing life-long fan, I'm absolutely done with them and beyond appalled at the utter disaster the MAX has become and their toxic mess of a culture.

I've also noted that many of the blindly-loyal Boeing fanboys have vanished from this thread of late.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:57 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
bgm wrote:
How many more of these 'issues' until Boeing pulls the plug on this disaster of a program? 10 more? 20 more? 100 more?

Leaving trash in the fuel wings? Seriously, WTF Boeing? If there was FOD in the fuel tanks, that could make a crash much more likely than the MCAS issues.

There seems to be a seriously rotten culture at Boeing. So sad to watch. Growing up, I was in awe at Boeing airplanes and considered them the gold standard.

There's a reason why you don't cut corners.


It's growing ever-more shocking to me that 300 of these thing were flying innocent passengers and crew around full of so many potential causes for disaster beyond just the MCAS issues. I'm sure many former MAX passengers and crew and feeling pretty fortunate these days that they skirted issues and accidents. The FOD debris for me is kinda the last straw, as a former Boeing life-long fan, I'm absolutely done with them and beyond appalled at the utter disaster the MAX has become and their toxic mess of a culture.

I've also noted that many of the blindly-loyal Boeing fanboys have vanished from this thread of late.


It imho makes it hard to believe that the MCAS assessment failure was an honest mistake, when it seems like Boeing cut corners wherever possible.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
No mention of pigeon carcasses, so we can conclude the Falcons are a lot tidier than the work force.


:spit: :rotfl:

XRAYretired wrote:
It would be of interest to know what triggered an internal wing fuel tank inspection in the first instance since this would be unlikely to be a scheduled inspection on stored frames with ~zero hours.


That is a very pertinent question, I've not seen anything indicating how this was first discovered.


There are very few (if any) zero hour frames without fuel in their tanks.

Most frames have left Renton, so they have (seen) significant amount of fuel in their tanks. Jetfuel has this nasty habbit of forming gummi-like substances over time due to microbes propagating.

I'd suspect that those stored frames would have their fuel system and tanks inspected for gummi-like substances as part of either the long-term storage procedures or the de-storage procedures being developed. Such inspection will then of course expose any production-related FOD, debris etc.

It is not unusual to see some stuff from time to time, but to have 2/3rds of the fleet affected, that does seem to suggest fundamental issues with production quality control and also with final acceptance and release procedures.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:04 pm

NightStar wrote:
par13del wrote:

So the head of the FAA saying he will not grant RTS until he personally flies a MAX with his family in it is........
If I was not looking thru fanboy eyes I would say the head of the FAA is being personal rather the professional....but what do I know...


This reminds me of the stories related to some of the early steel bridges built in the U.S. during the early years of automobile driving. Many people were nervous about driving across the longer bridges. Publicity stunts were devised to turn public opinion. Some included marching elephants across bridges. It worked in most cases. In many cases, the governor of the state (and probably a few presidents too) was compelled to ride across the bridge in a ceremony which is something we still see today. The hope is that if important people demonstrate they feel perfectly safe, then the average citizen will too.

The American public responds to that type of thing but who knows about the rest of the world? I still think it's overall a good thing for both Boeing and the FAA which both sorely need a restoration of trust. Someone with as much responsibility and authority as him putting his own safety on the line has power in the public mind.


Makes no difference to me. What does it prove? Dickson is hardly fluent with the 737. He was an A320 pilot at Delta.
 
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bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
bgm wrote:
How many more of these 'issues' until Boeing pulls the plug on this disaster of a program? 10 more? 20 more? 100 more?

Leaving trash in the fuel wings? Seriously, WTF Boeing? If there was FOD in the fuel tanks, that could make a crash much more likely than the MCAS issues.

There seems to be a seriously rotten culture at Boeing. So sad to watch. Growing up, I was in awe at Boeing airplanes and considered them the gold standard.

There's a reason why you don't cut corners.


It's growing ever-more shocking to me that 300 of these thing were flying innocent passengers and crew around full of so many potential causes for disaster beyond just the MCAS issues. I'm sure many former MAX passengers and crew and feeling pretty fortunate these days that they skirted issues and accidents. The FOD debris for me is kinda the last straw, as a former Boeing life-long fan, I'm absolutely done with them and beyond appalled at the utter disaster the MAX has become and their toxic mess of a culture.

I've also noted that many of the blindly-loyal Boeing fanboys have vanished from this thread of late.


I'm sure Boeing will miss your business. How many aircraft have you purchased from them?


Cant divulge that information I’m afraid. It’s part of the NDA. :duck:
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:02 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
bgm wrote:
How many more of these 'issues' until Boeing pulls the plug on this disaster of a program? 10 more? 20 more? 100 more?

Leaving trash in the fuel wings? Seriously, WTF Boeing? If there was FOD in the fuel tanks, that could make a crash much more likely than the MCAS issues.

There seems to be a seriously rotten culture at Boeing. So sad to watch. Growing up, I was in awe at Boeing airplanes and considered them the gold standard.

There's a reason why you don't cut corners.


It's growing ever-more shocking to me that 300 of these thing were flying innocent passengers and crew around full of so many potential causes for disaster beyond just the MCAS issues. I'm sure many former MAX passengers and crew and feeling pretty fortunate these days that they skirted issues and accidents. The FOD debris for me is kinda the last straw, as a former Boeing life-long fan, I'm absolutely done with them and beyond appalled at the utter disaster the MAX has become and their toxic mess of a culture.

I've also noted that many of the blindly-loyal Boeing fanboys have vanished from this thread of late.


I'm sure Boeing will miss your business. How many aircraft have you purchased from them?


With that attitude, nothing will get solved.

You gotta learn to distance yourself from a multi billion dollar duopoly corporation, and not feel personally attacked or triggered when they receive criticism. Boeing will be fine, they can fend for themselves.
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:08 pm

If the MCAS debacle had never happened and all those Maxs and more were happily flying around as i type this, would we ever have found out that the fuel tanks had been used as rubbish bins?
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:20 pm

Agrajag wrote:
If the MCAS debacle had never happened and all those Maxs and more were happily flying around as i type this, would we ever have found out that the fuel tanks had been used as rubbish bins?


I'll go further and state that the Max would be flying right now had Boeing really actually fixed the MCAS two sensor AOA issue they said they fixed back in June 2019. All the other issues - wire bundle, fuel tank FOD - would have been dealt with an AD after the ungrounding. Simply too much money being lost otherwise. The manual trim wheel issue - which exists on the NG - can be dealt with by leaving electric trim operable (ie doesn't get disabled during stab trim cutout).

Obviously, I'm including the following in the MCAS 2.0 solution:
--Bit-flip fail-safe issue (ie "cosmic ray")
--Powerup monitor (timing) issue
--AOA disagree light
--stab trim fail indicator timing issue
--electric trim inoperable during stab cutout

So, one is left wondering how much of these other issues are real, or simply cover for the MCAS 2.0 issues. Recall that Boeing did something really astonishing with MCAS 1.0, from design decisions, testing decisions, certification decisions, all the way to manipulating information that got to airlines and their pilots. There must have been a good reason for that, and it isn't mere engineering misjudgement or bad culture.
Last edited by sgrow787 on Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
The core issue very well could be managers pushing workers to the point where they don't have time or energy to worry about things such as going back to check for FOD, rather than laziness, union membership, Northwestern US moodiness triggered by constant rain, high real estate prices, excessive caffination, grunge rock, yada yada.


I agree. Despite not agreeing with this general anti-management passion here on a.net, it is also hard to believe management style and culture imposed on the workforce isn't part and/or root of the problem.

Revelation wrote:

So Dickson said he needs to fly it himself (not sure if an actual airplane or a sim) and will need to be satisfied he would put his own family on it (but didn't say he would actually do so before approval).


Thanks Revelation, for digging it up. And I thought so much as well, as it is perfectly in line with something one would say, addressing the public, rather than the professional audience.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:34 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:

It's growing ever-more shocking to me that 300 of these thing were flying innocent passengers and crew around full of so many potential causes for disaster beyond just the MCAS issues. I'm sure many former MAX passengers and crew and feeling pretty fortunate these days that they skirted issues and accidents. The FOD debris for me is kinda the last straw, as a former Boeing life-long fan, I'm absolutely done with them and beyond appalled at the utter disaster the MAX has become and their toxic mess of a culture.

I've also noted that many of the blindly-loyal Boeing fanboys have vanished from this thread of late.


I'm sure Boeing will miss your business. How many aircraft have you purchased from them?


With that attitude, nothing will get solved.

You gotta learn to distance yourself from a multi billion dollar duopoly corporation, and not feel personally attacked or triggered when they receive criticism. Boeing will be fine, they can fend for themselves.


Absolutely agree. There is some kind of all but religious cult and emotions around some of the companies discussed here on a.net, that is quite misplaced.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:40 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
NightStar wrote:
par13del wrote:

So the head of the FAA saying he will not grant RTS until he personally flies a MAX with his family in it is........
If I was not looking thru fanboy eyes I would say the head of the FAA is being personal rather the professional....but what do I know...


This reminds me of the stories related to some of the early steel bridges built in the U.S. during the early years of automobile driving. Many people were nervous about driving across the longer bridges. Publicity stunts were devised to turn public opinion. Some included marching elephants across bridges. It worked in most cases. In many cases, the governor of the state (and probably a few presidents too) was compelled to ride across the bridge in a ceremony which is something we still see today. The hope is that if important people demonstrate they feel perfectly safe, then the average citizen will too.

The American public responds to that type of thing but who knows about the rest of the world? I still think it's overall a good thing for both Boeing and the FAA which both sorely need a restoration of trust. Someone with as much responsibility and authority as him putting his own safety on the line has power in the public mind.


Makes no difference to me. What does it prove? Dickson is hardly fluent with the 737. He was an A320 pilot at Delta.


It makes no difference for the professional avation world, but more so for the public. For most of us here, it is a stunt, though.

But regardless, which plane Dickson flew is hardly relevant. Pilots change their rating multiple times during their careers without any difficulties. Why would Dickson have a problem, with proper preparation, to evaluate characteristics of the 737?
 
889091
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:15 am

scbriml wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Boeing Finds Fuel-Tank Debris in 2/3 of MAX Jets Inspected (50 so far). Article says that debris included tools, rags and boot coverings. Boeing has vaunted procedures to prevent this, which apparently were being ignored, per the article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fin ... _lead_pos3

Those dang dumb unsophisticated workers in South Carolina at it again!!! Oh, wait.

One thing that the articles don't discuss is the possibility that the debris might be from some supplier that assembled components for shipment to Washington and joining there. I don't know much about the MAX assembly process, but I know Spirit makes the fuselage, part of which might include the fuel tank (as well as 69 percent of the plane generally).


FOD in 2/3 of 50 checked planes is pretty shocking. It's even more shocking given Boeing's well publicised FOD issue with KC-46s.

Even if some FOD were left in place by suppliers, it's Boeing that's doing final assembly and everything should be checked post-assembly.


Is this going to trigger the FAA to issue a AD for all other Boeing's products (787, P8, 748, etc) to look for FOD in the fuel tanks? This saga is getting to be very, very expensive for Boeing....
 
RobertPhoenix
Posts: 128
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:21 am

Apologies if this has been discussed in detail, but checking everything in these very long threads is a problem !

I can only assume that many or most airlines would have scheduled their MAX deliveries to coincide with the requirement for a D check on an existing aircraft, getting the most benefit before retiring the old aircraft. So it seems reasonable to speculate that at least a few aircraft are being given D checks when they otherwise would have been retired.

So now those same airlines won't need the replacement MAX for 6 to 10 years. That at least would solve one of Boeing's problems.

Is this happening, and if so, how many aircraft might be involved ?
 
889091
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:29 am

RobertPhoenix wrote:
So now those same airlines won't need the replacement MAX for 6 to 10 years. That at least would solve one of Boeing's problems.


...and create a new set of problems for BCA. I don't think they'll be fine to fund the fuel burn penalty for 10 years....
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:18 am

CRJockey wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NightStar wrote:

This reminds me of the stories related to some of the early steel bridges built in the U.S. during the early years of automobile driving. Many people were nervous about driving across the longer bridges. Publicity stunts were devised to turn public opinion. Some included marching elephants across bridges. It worked in most cases. In many cases, the governor of the state (and probably a few presidents too) was compelled to ride across the bridge in a ceremony which is something we still see today. The hope is that if important people demonstrate they feel perfectly safe, then the average citizen will too.

The American public responds to that type of thing but who knows about the rest of the world? I still think it's overall a good thing for both Boeing and the FAA which both sorely need a restoration of trust. Someone with as much responsibility and authority as him putting his own safety on the line has power in the public mind.


Makes no difference to me. What does it prove? Dickson is hardly fluent with the 737. He was an A320 pilot at Delta.


It makes no difference for the professional avation world, but more so for the public. For most of us here, it is a stunt, though.

But regardless, which plane Dickson flew is hardly relevant. Pilots change their rating multiple times during their careers without any difficulties. Why would Dickson have a problem, with proper preparation, to evaluate characteristics of the 737?


The problem is that Dickson is not an engineer or test pilot. He was a management pilot during his airline days. He was basically a line pilot with HR tasks. What makes him any better suited to evaluate the Max than a line pilot selected at random from WN or UA? Like you said, it's just a show for the public. Or rather the few in the public who actually know of the Max issues.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:26 am

Agrajag wrote:
If the MCAS debacle had never happened and all those Maxs and more were happily flying around as i type this, would we ever have found out that the fuel tanks had been used as rubbish bins?

Funny thing that, will have to do some searches to confirm but so far I do not recall seeing any airline who operated the MAX before the grounding report any issues with FOD in the fuel tanks. My non-technical assumption is that if there were boots, coveralls etc in the fuel tanks there would have been some effect on performance which may have led to an inspection. If the FOD was "melted" by the fuel, would it show in the fuel test that are conducted periodically?

In the past when Boeing was respected the initial thought would be worker action when the FOD issue was spread across multiple programs, alas, now the initial thought is that Boeing cannot do quality control in any program, large or small, high or low output.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:50 am

889091 wrote:
This saga is getting to be very, very expensive for Boeing....

Good. This needs to hurt. A lot. Losing money seems to be the only thing Boeing understands.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
beechnut
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:59 am

Air Canada is reportedly starting to think about a post-MAX world:

https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... ec-airbus/

They are considering an A321LR/XLR and A330 NEO order according to the link. Especially interesting was this part (my translation):

"I think... we have examined various scenarios internally. I think we have pretty good flexibility until roughly the end of the year. After that it becomes more difficult because the maintenance costs will increase and these aircraft must be returned to their lessors for that reason. However certainly we have reasonable flexibility until the end of the year" (Mike Rousseau, VP finance, AC management conference call).

Mr. Rousseau's declaration means that Air Canada would find it difficult to continue using current solutions in 2021, The company must therefore consider longer-term replacement solutions. These solutions will take more time to deploy and they need to be decided well before the end of 2020. June 30 is therefore an important date for the future of the MAX in Air Canada's fleet. If by this date Boeing is still working on problems, Air Canada will need to find a more durable solution.


Beech
 
pune
Posts: 398
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:12 am

beechnut wrote:
Air Canada is reportedly starting to think about a post-MAX world:

https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... ec-airbus/

They are considering an A321LR/XLR and A330 NEO order according to the link. Especially interesting was this part (my translation):

"I think... we have examined various scenarios internally. I think we have pretty good flexibility until roughly the end of the year. After that it becomes more difficult because the maintenance costs will increase and these aircraft must be returned to their lessors for that reason. However certainly we have reasonable flexibility until the end of the year" (Mike Rousseau, VP finance, AC management conference call).

Mr. Rousseau's declaration means that Air Canada would find it difficult to continue using current solutions in 2021, The company must therefore consider longer-term replacement solutions. These solutions will take more time to deploy and they need to be decided well before the end of 2020. June 30 is therefore an important date for the future of the MAX in Air Canada's fleet. If by this date Boeing is still working on problems, Air Canada will need to find a more durable solution.


Beech


This at least in my view is going to be the path for most of the airlines. Especially for those airlines for whom branding and brand name is important. It would certainly remove the uncertainity and also put pressure on Boeing to hopefully start working on a clean-sheet design . Of course, in the meantime Airbus would continue to make record profits, hopefully they see the lessons and pitfalls and don't make the same mistakes.
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:26 am

Boeing Commercial Aircraft are slowly drowning. It is one sorry sob story after another. The BoD does not have the intelligence, integrity or knowledge to lift the company out of the mire (deep shit) they are in.
Both aircraft plants in Washington State Renton and Everett plus Charleston morale must be at an all time low for the work force.
This without doubt is probably the most inept management team of any company anywhere in the world.
 
Aviator34ID
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:38 am

Surely somewhere in the assembly procedure there has to be a check item signed off by an inspector that says fuel tanks have been checked for rubbish?

How could the at least 50 aircraft so far checked be missed!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 am

cledaybuck wrote:
Good. This needs to hurt. A lot. Losing money seems to be the only thing Boeing understands.


Except we the public are the ones that end up paying for it. I'd rather limit my pain and end the unnecessary bleeding to society.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13231
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:43 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Calhoun took his first test flight this week on the new 737 MAX 7 jet, which is expected to show the FAA that the jets are ready to be back in the air.

"It went beautifully, I couldn't have been happier," said Calhoun. "The airplane is incredibly safe -- the flying public is going to regain their confidence."

Huh, the company in its worst crisis in a hundred years because in 2017 to 2019 the MAX makes 124,999 safe flights for every 125,000 flights.

Now the CEO "couldn't have been happier" because it makes one safe flight out of one flight.

Am I the only one who sees bizarre proportions here?

Proving safety has nothing to do with making 500, 5,000, or 500,000 test flights followed by equal number of good landings. Proving safety is producing sound engineering of every detail. Test flights are for showing that engineering was done correctly and left no surprises. They are not for developing safety.


Yeah I got the same feeling from the comments. On the one hand you have to prove you have sound design to even return to service, but "real world" safety will only be proven with time.

Also, it must prove safe in the hand of average pilots (or even worst case pilots), not super trained test pilots.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:03 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
Surely somewhere in the assembly procedure there has to be a check item signed off by an inspector that says fuel tanks have been checked for rubbish?

How could the at least 50 aircraft so far checked be missed!


Since FOD can be anywhere and not easily seen, isn't the practice to have a thorough procedure inventorying every tool, etc., before and after a task is done, so that you know and can prove that there isn't anything big left behind ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:17 am

MSPNWA wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Good. This needs to hurt. A lot. Losing money seems to be the only thing Boeing understands.


Except we the public are the ones that end up paying for it. I'd rather limit my pain and end the unnecessary bleeding to society.

I would rather no more actual blood be spilled due to Boeing’s incompetence.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:45 am

pune wrote:
Of course, in the meantime Airbus would continue to make record profits, hopefully they see the lessons and pitfalls and don't make the same mistakes.


So first of all, as time goes on and as more and more problems mount, I am starting to consider a possibility that I would have once dismissed as utterly absurd: The MAX is not going to RTS. There are a few ways it could happen. The continual trickle of issues could continue, basically "nickling and diming" the program until it's now been five years and the MAX is still no closer to RTS. Alternatively, it could take so long that customers would start canceling orders and demanding full compensation and return of deposits for "incompetent offer" and other legal terms for basically offering to sell something that you don't actually have.

That would leave Airbus as the world's sole supplier of single-aisle aircraft in the 130-200 seat market until Boeing came out with a NSA. Sounds like a dream for Airbus, right? Not so much. Lead times on airliners are very long and Airbus and its suppliers do not have the ability to simply double their output. For one thing, Airbus would have to open twice the FALs currently in service. That is also a very long lead-time project. And so Airbus would find itself in a position of having to turn away business. This entire situation could get very messy.

I really hope Boeing gets to RTS sooner rather than later.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
pune
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:08 am

DocLightning wrote:
pune wrote:
Of course, in the meantime Airbus would continue to make record profits, hopefully they see the lessons and pitfalls and don't make the same mistakes.


So first of all, as time goes on and as more and more problems mount, I am starting to consider a possibility that I would have once dismissed as utterly absurd: The MAX is not going to RTS. There are a few ways it could happen. The continual trickle of issues could continue, basically "nickling and diming" the program until it's now been five years and the MAX is still no closer to RTS. Alternatively, it could take so long that customers would start canceling orders and demanding full compensation and return of deposits for "incompetent offer" and other legal terms for basically offering to sell something that you don't actually have.

That would leave Airbus as the world's sole supplier of single-aisle aircraft in the 130-200 seat market until Boeing came out with a NSA. Sounds like a dream for Airbus, right? Not so much. Lead times on airliners are very long and Airbus and its suppliers do not have the ability to simply double their output. For one thing, Airbus would have to open twice the FALs currently in service. That is also a very long lead-time project. And so Airbus would find itself in a position of having to turn away business. This entire situation could get very messy.

I really hope Boeing gets to RTS sooner rather than later.


I agree with the assessment of Airbus, especially as they need to be prudent otherwise project costs can be weird. Although Boeing chances of RTS seem to be becoming more and more dim as new issues keep getting found out. And if another accident were to happen for any reason, the regulators as well as Boeing will lose whatever trust they have. Sadly, during the whole journey till date, we have seen Boeing always trying to hide something or the other instead of being open. Even the new person seems to be saying the same/similar dialogues from before. I am not hopeful at least in near-term.
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1905
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:11 am

DocLightning wrote:
So first of all, as time goes on and as more and more problems mount, I am starting to consider a possibility that I would have once dismissed as utterly absurd: The MAX is not going to RTS. There are a few ways it could happen. The continual trickle of issues could continue, basically "nickling and diming" the program until it's now been five years and the MAX is still no closer to RTS. Alternatively, it could take so long that customers would start canceling orders and demanding full compensation and return of deposits for "incompetent offer" and other legal terms for basically offering to sell something that you don't actually have.

That would leave Airbus as the world's sole supplier of single-aisle aircraft in the 130-200 seat market until Boeing came out with a NSA. Sounds like a dream for Airbus, right? Not so much. Lead times on airliners are very long and Airbus and its suppliers do not have the ability to simply double their output. For one thing, Airbus would have to open twice the FALs currently in service. That is also a very long lead-time project. And so Airbus would find itself in a position of having to turn away business. This entire situation could get very messy.

I really hope Boeing gets to RTS sooner rather than later.



Or Boeing offers their most loyal customers who stays with them a 737NG instead of the MAX until they can bring the NSA to service after scrapping the MAX. Airbus goes up to 80 per month for a few years with the A320 taking up some of the lost work from the same suppliers they both mainly share. But Boeing gets to keep their most loyal customers and launches a new model to compete with the A320 where the duopoly will share the market once again.

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