Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:25 am

DocLightning wrote:
So first of all, as time goes on and as more and more problems mount, I am starting to consider a possibility that I would have once dismissed as utterly absurd: The MAX is not going to RTS. There are a few ways it could happen. The continual trickle of issues could continue, basically "nickling and diming" the program until it's now been five years and the MAX is still no closer to RTS.


I see your point being a logical extension of the current issues. Every new issue cropping up needs to be addressed in the most appropriate manner.
The driver of this of course is that with the original certification of the MAX, the FAA entrusted Boeing doing the work and expecting it to be done extensively. As we now know, this was not to be the case. So to ensure that the FAA are seen to be a competent authority, and one that is not liable and could be dragged into courts for endless law suits, they’re not not going to be complacent but be 101% anal about everything this time. And this takes TIME.

But I agree; it looks like death by a thousand cuts.

DocLightning wrote:
Alternatively, it could take so long that customers would start canceling orders and demanding full compensation and return of deposits for "incompetent offer" and other legal terms for basically offering to sell something that you don't actually have.


I believe we’d have to be at some very dire point to see the mass cancellations start. I’m fairly certain that there will be a lot of compensation offered to customers which will offer some sort of appeasement for a period of time. But that could change substantially if something else changed the situation. For example, if the grounding went well into a second year I believe it could be the start of a blood bath.

Just to transgress slightly: the single aisle, 150-250 seat plane, is pretty much the bread and butter of aviation at the moment. And I think current backlogs are proof of that. Boeing May well state that they’re working on a New design NMA. And I have no reason to doubt that. But if the priority is not a 737 replacement before the NMA, then someone needs to send a postcard picturing planet Earth from space, to Boeing, with the following words written on it: “Wish you were here”.

Rgds,
C1973
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:38 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
Surely somewhere in the assembly procedure there has to be a check item signed off by an inspector that says fuel tanks have been checked for rubbish?

How could the at least 50 aircraft so far checked be missed!

You would think it would be an easy inspection with a borescope. Honestly, stuff like this bothers me more than MCAS. If they can't do a simple inspection for FOD, how can the whole assembly process be trusted?
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:43 am

enzo011 wrote:
Or Boeing offers their most loyal customers who stays with them a 737NG instead of the MAX until they can bring the NSA to service after scrapping the MAX. Airbus goes up to 80 per month for a few years with the A320 taking up some of the lost work from the same suppliers they both mainly share. But Boeing gets to keep their most loyal customers and launches a new model to compete with the A320 where the duopoly will share the market once again.


The problem with a 737 replacement, and this also applies to comparable competition, is managing current customers. When Boeing launched the MAX, a great extent of their marketing was commonality with the existing product. And as we all know, Airbus did the same.

But by launching a new generation of replacement, you still have to convince your customers to keep buying what you currently have. You can do that through reduced buy prices, a guaranteed by back of the plane if they’re going to purchase the new one, and so on. Also replacing a generation of aircraft with another depresses current fleet values and both airlines and lessors aren’t too keen about it. So it’s almost dammed if you do, and dammed if you don’t.

At some point, they’ll all be doing it and it will be interesting to watch.

Rgds,
C1973
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
744SPX
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:44 am

I hear you Chimpmunk. (BTW, I'm a '73 as well)

Honestly, I'm surprised and disappointed that there have been no MAX order cancellations as of yet (which speaks to money being the end all and be all). I'm a huge Boeing fan but I want the MAX to fail. The mindset that created the MAX needs to die, and die hard. The notion that the "MAX will last for a generation" is about money, period. Contrary to popular belief, the MAX is NOT too big too fail, (that only applies to Boeing shareholders).
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:46 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
Surely somewhere in the assembly procedure there has to be a check item signed off by an inspector that says fuel tanks have been checked for rubbish?

How could the at least 50 aircraft so far checked be missed!


Here is the new definition of irony:

Inspecting a 737MAX fuel tank and finding a Post-It note with the message “Don’t forget to check for FOD”.

Rgds,
C1973
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7153
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:40 am

MSPNWA wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Good. This needs to hurt. A lot. Losing money seems to be the only thing Boeing understands.


Except we the public are the ones that end up paying for it. I'd rather limit my pain and end the unnecessary bleeding to society.


I'm pretty sure that ending unnecessary bleeding in society is exactly what all this is about.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:28 am

744SPX wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised and disappointed that there have been no MAX order cancellations as of yet (which speaks to money being the end all and be all). I'm a huge Boeing fan but I want the MAX to fail. The mindset that created the MAX needs to die, and die hard. The notion that the "MAX will last for a generation" is about money, period. Contrary to popular belief, the MAX is NOT too big too fail, (that only applies to Boeing shareholders).


Very interesting statement and I do like how you have described why. Yes, the mindset and the rush for cash being put first does need changing.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Caymanair
Posts: 496
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:51 am

oschkosch wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised and disappointed that there have been no MAX order cancellations as of yet (which speaks to money being the end all and be all). I'm a huge Boeing fan but I want the MAX to fail. The mindset that created the MAX needs to die, and die hard. The notion that the "MAX will last for a generation" is about money, period. Contrary to popular belief, the MAX is NOT too big too fail, (that only applies to Boeing shareholders).


Very interesting statement and I do like how you have described why. Yes, the mindset and the rush for cash being put first does need changing.


It is a private company. In what world should the company not seek to maximise profits? They aren't a charity.

It is a government's job to make sure companies have rules that prevent them from generating profits in a harmful way, and a regulator's job to enforce those rules.

Boeing can't go around making planes because it's cool to make new planes.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:54 am

So no new orders for the 737MAX.. the Jet Airways and Air Italy birds will have to find new homes.

I really cant see any new orders on the horizon.

The IAG LoI may never happen after Willie Walsh toddles off into the sunset.

If an airline ordered now, provided RTS happens soon and no further issues are found, they would still have a long wait for delivery.. Boeing has the hundreds of stored frames to get back into service, restarting production will be slow.

It will be interesting to see what Alaska does.. the Leeham article makes the case for an Airbus order.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/23/why-t ... -airlines/
 
889091
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:19 pm

DocLightning wrote:
pune wrote:
Of course, in the meantime Airbus would continue to make record profits, hopefully they see the lessons and pitfalls and don't make the same mistakes.


That would leave Airbus as the world's sole supplier of single-aisle aircraft in the 130-200 seat market until Boeing came out with a NSA. Sounds like a dream for Airbus, right? Not so much. Lead times on airliners are very long and Airbus and its suppliers do not have the ability to simply double their output. For one thing, Airbus would have to open twice the FALs currently in service. That is also a very long lead-time project. And so Airbus would find itself in a position of having to turn away business. This entire situation could get very messy.

I really hope Boeing gets to RTS sooner rather than later.


In a warped sort of way.... if BCA pulls the plug on the MAX and Airbus is the sole supplier as you state above...

Could Airbus outsource the production of the A320 to....dare I say it... BCA? It'll be a win-win situation for both parties.....until such a time BCA can get the NSA up and running.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:43 pm

Or Boeing offers their most loyal customers who stays with them a 737NG instead of the MAX until they can bring the NSA to service after scrapping the MAX.


My understanding is that this would be very hard to do, as much of the parts pipeline for the NG has been shutdown. Restarting that pipeline would require a great deal of lead time. This was asked some time ago after the MAX was first grounded, so I'm going from memory, but here goes... The MAX is more than just new engines. We're looking at engines, electronics, interiors, etc., and all of the older NG components would need to be remade. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, that NG production couldn't be restarted, only that it would be logistically very difficult, and by the time you do, the MAX will hopefully be back in service, mooting any potential advantages that you'd get from a new NG.

More than likely, what we'll see is older 737s remaining in service longer until the NSA arrives and/or the MAX reenters service in numbers, with Boeing footing the maintenance bill either up front as compensation, or by offering NSA's at steep discounts. Planes can be brought out of the desert for a few more years until the recertified MAX is available in numbers. And, if the MAX is totally abandoned (which I personally don't see happening, though perhaps it should) then the older planes will soldier on until the NSA is offered.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:21 pm

I think the FAA has been irresponsible twice now - firstly they should have actually done their jobs and not taken Boeing's word for everything. It seems like they were just totally absent and had no idea what was going on.

But now, they're being irresponsible again by letting this drag on for much longer than necessary. Surely all that was needed was an "MCAS Off" button and some training for pilots on how to use it. They could leave their recriminations for later.

The FAA needs to find a balance between safety and economics, instead of waiting for a big accident to think about safety and then going totally overboard just to cover their asses.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I think the FAA has been irresponsible twice now - firstly they should have actually done their jobs and not taken Boeing's word for everything. It seems like they were just totally absent and had no idea what was going on.

But now, they're being irresponsible again by letting this drag on for much longer than necessary. Surely all that was needed was an "MCAS Off" button and some training for pilots on how to use it. They could leave their recriminations for later.

The FAA needs to find a balance between safety and economics, instead of waiting for a big accident to think about safety and then going totally overboard just to cover their asses.


The point is not only MCAS, but all the other ugly stuff that conveniently had been stuffed under the rug. MCAS was just the tip of the iceberg. The whole certification of the 737MAX became suspect when the light was turned on.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:10 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I think the FAA has been irresponsible twice now - firstly they should have actually done their jobs and not taken Boeing's word for everything. It seems like they were just totally absent and had no idea what was going on.

But now, they're being irresponsible again by letting this drag on for much longer than necessary. Surely all that was needed was an "MCAS Off" button and some training for pilots on how to use it. They could leave their recriminations for later.

The FAA needs to find a balance between safety and economics, instead of waiting for a big accident to think about safety and then going totally overboard just to cover their asses.

Yet another poor and irresponsible attempt to absolve Boeing of their responsibility for the initial incompetent design and analysis and subsequently their inability to design and implement a solution that is actually functional and compliant. This is compounded by an indicated lack of understanding that it the responsibility of the manufacturer to propose and design the solution, not the regulator. The solution proposed here fails to address the primary problems of single sensor input and erroneous expectation that the crew can respond in recognition of erroneous MCAS operation in an appropriate time even with training. The solution is required to address both and consign the catastrophic failure mode to at least extremely remote probability.

Boeings failure to submit a working solution so far is at their own feet and not the fault of regulators.

Ray
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21861
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:53 pm

889091 wrote:
Could Airbus outsource the production of the A320 to....dare I say it... BCA?


I'm no expert on manufacturing or on business laws, but it strikes me that setting up a FAL at a Boeing facility would only save Airbus the building. Not only that, but I then wonder about antitrust laws or other such issues popping up.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:23 pm

flyingphil wrote:
So no new orders for the 737MAX.. the Jet Airways and Air Italy birds will have to find new homes.

I really cant see any new orders on the horizon.

The IAG LoI may never happen after Willie Walsh toddles off into the sunset.

If an airline ordered now, provided RTS happens soon and no further issues are found, they would still have a long wait for delivery.. Boeing has the hundreds of stored frames to get back into service, restarting production will be slow.

It will be interesting to see what Alaska does.. the Leeham article makes the case for an Airbus order.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/23/why-t ... -airlines/


QANTAS is looking to make an order for 75 737MAX to replace their aging 737 fleet. Alan Joyce is expecting a bargain price, though.
 
889091
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:27 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
So no new orders for the 737MAX.. the Jet Airways and Air Italy birds will have to find new homes.

I really cant see any new orders on the horizon.

The IAG LoI may never happen after Willie Walsh toddles off into the sunset.

If an airline ordered now, provided RTS happens soon and no further issues are found, they would still have a long wait for delivery.. Boeing has the hundreds of stored frames to get back into service, restarting production will be slow.

It will be interesting to see what Alaska does.. the Leeham article makes the case for an Airbus order.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/23/why-t ... -airlines/


QANTAS is looking to make an order for 75 737MAX to replace their aging 737 fleet. Alan Joyce is expecting a bargain price, though.


The Aussie $ has dropped like a lead balloon recently, so I'd expect Alan Joyce to go for the jugular.....
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:59 pm

beechnut wrote:
Air Canada is reportedly starting to think about a post-MAX world:

https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... ec-airbus/

They are considering an A321LR/XLR and A330 NEO order according to the link. Especially interesting was this part (my translation):

"I think... we have examined various scenarios internally. I think we have pretty good flexibility until roughly the end of the year. After that it becomes more difficult because the maintenance costs will increase and these aircraft must be returned to their lessors for that reason. However certainly we have reasonable flexibility until the end of the year" (Mike Rousseau, VP finance, AC management conference call).

Mr. Rousseau's declaration means that Air Canada would find it difficult to continue using current solutions in 2021, The company must therefore consider longer-term replacement solutions. These solutions will take more time to deploy and they need to be decided well before the end of 2020. June 30 is therefore an important date for the future of the MAX in Air Canada's fleet. If by this date Boeing is still working on problems, Air Canada will need to find a more durable solution.


Beech

Very interesting stuff here. So it sounds like they are limiting their fleet to 50 and don’t want the -9 anymore... or at least that’s what google translate told me. If only I could read French.

With that said this doesn’t look good for the MAX because it’s sounding like the summer goal is in trouble now.

If only they had picked the A320...
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
pune
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:18 pm

DocLightning wrote:
889091 wrote:
Could Airbus outsource the production of the A320 to....dare I say it... BCA?


I'm no expert on manufacturing or on business laws, but it strikes me that setting up a FAL at a Boeing facility would only save Airbus the building. Not only that, but I then wonder about antitrust laws or other such issues popping up.


On top of that with the recent quality issues or questions which have been raised at Boeing, wouldn't there be similar questions be raised for Airbus too. If I were in Airbus, I wouldn't want to touch Boeing with a 10-foot pole. Also Boeing could do intentionally low quality work or/and do espionage work on whatever is going on Airbus. I see all downsides and not many upsides to this.
 
LSGL
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:16 pm

If there is too much demand, the benefit for Airbus would come from higher prices for its A320s, there's no point in dramatically increasing production in this scenario. But Airbus is almost as interested as Boeing in getting the 737 back in the air. Better the devil you know, they say. Since Airbus can't produce significantly more A320s in the short term, this would open the window to a new competitor breaking into the market (Comac?) which, thanks to filling the gap left by Boeing would be able to get orders and gain economies of scale to then become a large competitor. After all, Airbus has only been around 50 years.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3942
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:55 pm

I wonder if the quality control inspection was changed following the grounding.

Everyone knows the MAX would go from production straight into storage. After that it would, eventually, be modified before being put into service. After the modification(s) I would guess the MAX should get another inspection.

So perhaps the bean-counters figured a partial inspection would be enough, with the full inspection to be done following the modifications?

If so, that would have been incredibly naive and short-sighted. But it’s Boeing’s management... so, yeah.
Attamottamotta!
 
beechnut
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:44 pm

767333ER wrote:
If only they had picked the A320...


When the MAX entered service, I thought that AC had dodged a bullet because of the engine problems Airbus was having with the NEO, and the MAX intro seemed to go without a hitch. Then when I heard Lion Air crash was a MAX I thought "oh-oh".

I have a hunch that the MAX will never RTS at Air Canada and that the "compensation" from Boeing will be buying the aircraft back so AC can free up capital to shop Airbus. They're going to have to scramble for capacity. I'm guessing we'll see fewer flights, and all wide bodies, on transcontinental routes. Maybe a morning and evening A330 round-trip between YUL and YVR for instance, and nothing else. I wonder how fast Airbus could deliver NEOs?

Of course you can't fly wide bodies to every city in Canada or the US. Hopefully the A220s that are coming on board will help and maybe AC will exercise some options (A225 anyone?). I guess an A321LR/XLR order would help, as well as some capacity shifting between Transat and Rouge once the Transat acquisition is completed. And scrounging around lessors for available short-term capacity.

The MAX fiasco is going to have a huge impact on domestic air travel.

And then there's WestJet, they like Southwest are married to the 737 for N. American flying.

As for me, I will avoid the MAX for my travel. If it ever takes off again.

Beech
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2558
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:15 am

889091 wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
So no new orders for the 737MAX.. the Jet Airways and Air Italy birds will have to find new homes.

I really cant see any new orders on the horizon.

The IAG LoI may never happen after Willie Walsh toddles off into the sunset.

If an airline ordered now, provided RTS happens soon and no further issues are found, they would still have a long wait for delivery.. Boeing has the hundreds of stored frames to get back into service, restarting production will be slow.

It will be interesting to see what Alaska does.. the Leeham article makes the case for an Airbus order.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/23/why-t ... -airlines/


QANTAS is looking to make an order for 75 737MAX to replace their aging 737 fleet. Alan Joyce is expecting a bargain price, though.


The Aussie $ has dropped like a lead balloon recently, so I'd expect Alan Joyce to go for the jugular.....

It may not be that simple. Some major airlines such as AA, WN and FR will have a "best price" clause in their contracts so if Boeing give QF an amazing price, it may trigger the best-price clauses meaning the future cashflow from the MAX program is further depressed.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:34 am

beechnut wrote:
767333ER wrote:
If only they had picked the A320...


When the MAX entered service, I thought that AC had dodged a bullet because of the engine problems Airbus was having with the NEO, and the MAX intro seemed to go without a hitch. Then when I heard Lion Air crash was a MAX I thought "oh-oh".

I have a hunch that the MAX will never RTS at Air Canada and that the "compensation" from Boeing will be buying the aircraft back so AC can free up capital to shop Airbus. They're going to have to scramble for capacity. I'm guessing we'll see fewer flights, and all wide bodies, on transcontinental routes. Maybe a morning and evening A330 round-trip between YUL and YVR for instance, and nothing else. I wonder how fast Airbus could deliver NEOs?

Of course you can't fly wide bodies to every city in Canada or the US. Hopefully the A220s that are coming on board will help and maybe AC will exercise some options (A225 anyone?). I guess an A321LR/XLR order would help, as well as some capacity shifting between Transat and Rouge once the Transat acquisition is completed. And scrounging around lessors for available short-term capacity.

The MAX fiasco is going to have a huge impact on domestic air travel.

And then there's WestJet, they like Southwest are married to the 737 for N. American flying.

As for me, I will avoid the MAX for my travel. If it ever takes off again.

Beech

IIRC the MAX EIS at Air Canada wasn’t nearly as smooth as say the A220. I remember when they had a fleet of like three or so I was always checking to see where they were flying them and they often seemed to go mechanical with 1-3 hour delays... and I was told at one point the engines aren’t so great. I remember Southwests disaster of an inaugural flight. This dodged a bullet sentiment I heard from others too but I said they were nuts because it’s easier to fix an engine (this has been done almost every time an new engine type has entered service and who’s to say they wouldn’t have ordered CFM anyway) than fixing a plane itself that is a piece of junk. Now that was partly just because I had a hunch that something was off about the thing making it junk but I never seriously thought I’d actually be right. I do know that even before it was grounded almost no one at that company really liked the thing and I imagine even fewer do now.

The impact now is as you suggest. Here in YYC it was once, maybe twice a day occurrence to have a wide body flight from YYZ depending on the season and it was only ever 767 or 787 with the second half of December being the exception. Now there are quite often 777s or A330s and just more wide body capacity in general. For a while A330s were coming from YUL too and so far it looks like in the summer that will resume. Hey I heard a rumor that YVR-YLW might be getting Rouge 767 service so even that’s going haywire.

If the MAX makes it back I will avoid it too. This won’t be because I will think it’s unsafe compared to a regular 737 because I imagine bowing and the FAA both cannot afford to have an unsafe aircraft on their hands again (I hope), but just as some sort of pointless, hopeless boycott.

Just remember what Mr. Saretsky said about about how great Boeing was while Bombardier is a joke making a jet that nobody wants (right before Delta ordered it). Oh how he had it wrong...
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5883
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:31 am

pune wrote:
Also Boeing could do intentionally low quality work or/and do espionage work on whatever is going on Airbus. I see all downsides and not many upsides to this.


No, FAA is already in a hydrochloric acid bath for allowing the low quality work at Boeing. They can't allow any more fukkups. As for espionage: Nobody can stop Boeing from chartering a fresh Airbus plane, and perform an innocent D-check to get all the "secrets".
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:33 am

beechnut wrote:
767333ER wrote:
If only they had picked the A320...


When the MAX entered service, I thought that AC had dodged a bullet because of the engine problems Airbus was having with the NEO, and the MAX intro seemed to go without a hitch. Then when I heard Lion Air crash was a MAX I thought "oh-oh".

I have a hunch that the MAX will never RTS at Air Canada and that the "compensation" from Boeing will be buying the aircraft back so AC can free up capital to shop Airbus. They're going to have to scramble for capacity. I'm guessing we'll see fewer flights, and all wide bodies, on transcontinental routes. Maybe a morning and evening A330 round-trip between YUL and YVR for instance, and nothing else. I wonder how fast Airbus could deliver NEOs?

Of course you can't fly wide bodies to every city in Canada or the US. Hopefully the A220s that are coming on board will help and maybe AC will exercise some options (A225 anyone?). I guess an A321LR/XLR order would help, as well as some capacity shifting between Transat and Rouge once the Transat acquisition is completed. And scrounging around lessors for available short-term capacity.

The MAX fiasco is going to have a huge impact on domestic air travel.

And then there's WestJet, they like Southwest are married to the 737 for N. American flying.

As for me, I will avoid the MAX for my travel. If it ever takes off again.

Beech


Since compensation would almost certainly be in future discounts I'd bet that the MAX returns to AC. I'd also bet that it does take off again. If there was a real chance of permanent grounding, there would be leaks from the FAA and EASA. Also, Boeing would have to disclose that material information.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2774
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:42 pm

People seem to conveniently forget how many of these issues crop up in service on Modern Jetliners even some that have been in service for decades.

Excepting for MCAS all the other issues regulators are finding with the MAX are usual ones that would not require a grounding and be covered by the AD process.

Just go to this website and go down the rabbit hole and you will begin to understand.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... rch/?q=320

Type in your favourite aircraft or least favourite aircraft and you will begin to understand.

Basically it seems like the regulators are just wanting Boeing to do all the AD's before RTS.
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:33 pm

morrisond wrote:
People seem to conveniently forget how many of these issues crop up in service on Modern Jetliners even some that have been in service for decades.

Excepting for MCAS all the other issues regulators are finding with the MAX are usual ones that would not require a grounding and be covered by the AD process.

Just go to this website and go down the rabbit hole and you will begin to understand.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... rch/?q=320

Type in your favourite aircraft or least favourite aircraft and you will begin to understand.

Basically it seems like the regulators are just wanting Boeing to do all the AD's before RTS.


Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:40 pm

At this point its clear that the next NB offer from Boeing will not be based on the continuation of the 737 line, I am wondering what impact that will have on customers decisions going forward. Will they hold off ordering knowing that Boeing have no choice but to develop their next NB thereby ending the program earlier than was expected if there is not a premature ending of its life for other reasons.
 
upright
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:26 pm

bgm wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?

since march 2019 there was no reason to build the MAX properly to dump it afterwards anyway.
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:36 pm

bgm wrote:
morrisond wrote:
People seem to conveniently forget how many of these issues crop up in service on Modern Jetliners even some that have been in service for decades.

Excepting for MCAS all the other issues regulators are finding with the MAX are usual ones that would not require a grounding and be covered by the AD process.

Just go to this website and go down the rabbit hole and you will begin to understand.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... rch/?q=320
Type in your favourite aircraft or least favourite aircraft and you will begin to understand.

Basically it seems like the regulators are just wanting Boeing to do all the AD's before RTS.


Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?

They don’t (I hope). That’s a Boeing thing and it’s not surprising considering the other horror stories of those lines in Renton. It’s just an attempt to make Boeing not look as bad or as incompetent as they are. I think it’s very telling that the link provided is rigged up to automatically search 320... Blatantly apparent company bias.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:59 pm

morrisond wrote:
People seem to conveniently forget how many of these issues crop up in service on Modern Jetliners even some that have been in service for decades.

Excepting for MCAS all the other issues regulators are finding with the MAX are usual ones that would not require a grounding and be covered by the AD process.

Just go to this website and go down the rabbit hole and you will begin to understand.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... rch/?q=320

Type in your favourite aircraft or least favourite aircraft and you will begin to understand.

Basically it seems like the regulators are just wanting Boeing to do all the AD's before RTS.

This AD process is one of the important piece that greatly improved the civil commercial flights safety. But even if all those AD seem to be equal, there are in fact not, especially if you look at the cause, how it was discovered, and how it was processed.

A normal AD is about something that unexpectedly deviate from the planning, discovered by the manufacturer itself, that publish with the regulators all the necessary steps to ensure safety.

"Strange" AD is about design incompetence, discovered by the regulator, that the manufacturer failed to address within a year.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
morrisond
Posts: 2774
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:18 pm

767333ER wrote:
bgm wrote:
morrisond wrote:
People seem to conveniently forget how many of these issues crop up in service on Modern Jetliners even some that have been in service for decades.

Excepting for MCAS all the other issues regulators are finding with the MAX are usual ones that would not require a grounding and be covered by the AD process.

Just go to this website and go down the rabbit hole and you will begin to understand.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... rch/?q=320
Type in your favourite aircraft or least favourite aircraft and you will begin to understand.

Basically it seems like the regulators are just wanting Boeing to do all the AD's before RTS.


Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?

They don’t (I hope). That’s a Boeing thing and it’s not surprising considering the other horror stories of those lines in Renton. It’s just an attempt to make Boeing not look as bad or as incompetent as they are. I think it’s very telling that the link provided is rigged up to automatically search 320... Blatantly apparent company bias.


No - it's an example that no airplane is perfect and most issues are dealt by AD and taken care of over time. They are not grounded for things like wire bundles needing separation.

I would ask you not to look at the one about Fuel on that list the one from 2019-24-01 that EASA is fighting.
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:42 pm

morrisond wrote:
767333ER wrote:
bgm wrote:

Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?

They don’t (I hope). That’s a Boeing thing and it’s not surprising considering the other horror stories of those lines in Renton. It’s just an attempt to make Boeing not look as bad or as incompetent as they are. I think it’s very telling that the link provided is rigged up to automatically search 320... Blatantly apparent company bias.


No - it's an example that no airplane is perfect and most issues are dealt by AD and taken care of over time. They are not grounded for things like wire bundles needing separation.

I would ask you not to look at the one about Fuel on that list the one from 2019-24-01 that EASA is fighting.


Just like your 'blame it on the pilots' mantra, the new angle is 'well, all the ADs are equal to the MAX clusterf**k'.

Newsflash: they're not, so stop conflating them. It's misleading and just smacks of desperation.
 
dakota123
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:14 pm

Caymanair wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
744SPX wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised and disappointed that there have been no MAX order cancellations as of yet (which speaks to money being the end all and be all). I'm a huge Boeing fan but I want the MAX to fail. The mindset that created the MAX needs to die, and die hard. The notion that the "MAX will last for a generation" is about money, period. Contrary to popular belief, the MAX is NOT too big too fail, (that only applies to Boeing shareholders).


Very interesting statement and I do like how you have described why. Yes, the mindset and the rush for cash being put first does need changing.


It is a private company. In what world should the company not seek to maximise profits? They aren't a charity.

It is a government's job to make sure companies have rules that prevent them from generating profits in a harmful way, and a regulator's job to enforce those rules.

Boeing can't go around making planes because it's cool to make new planes.


The way it is supposed to work is that you DO make cool* airplanes, and that makes companies want to buy them, and that makes shareholders happy. It's fundamentally bulls*** that quarterly shareholder value is now first and everything else be damned; It's backwards from the way the stock market largely has worked historically, when a company's long-range goals were why you bought in.

There is indeed a public trust element (charity, if you will) to commercial aircraft, more so than any other mass use product I can think of, even the personal auto. Boeing broke that public trust. When there is a public trust, sometimes you just must do the right thing, even if the markets, even if the customer, will be upset.

*My definition of cool aircraft is right aircraft for the market, at the right time, professionally done. And by professionally done, I mean with sound engineering and integrity, even if it costs more to get there in the end because your initial assumptions were wrong or some unanticipated problems arose. As they say, too bad, so sad. Learn and do it better next time.
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
TC957
Posts: 3843
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:44 pm

With yet another RTS delay to at least Q4 2020 now, Boeing really must decide to abandon the MAX for once and for all and restart making -800/900's again. Because :
Public perception to the MAX
Airlines demanding compensation, and any new orders for the MAX will be at such a reduced margin / profit for Boeing at a time when their cash reserves are taking a bashing.
Costs involved in restarting MAX production and satisfying the world's aviation regulators.
Costs involved in returning stored aircraft to RTS status.
Just get on with putting the MAX out of it's miserable existence and build the NMA, a scaled down 4000nm 200 seater narrow-bodied mini-787.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2774
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm

bgm wrote:
morrisond wrote:
767333ER wrote:
They don’t (I hope). That’s a Boeing thing and it’s not surprising considering the other horror stories of those lines in Renton. It’s just an attempt to make Boeing not look as bad or as incompetent as they are. I think it’s very telling that the link provided is rigged up to automatically search 320... Blatantly apparent company bias.


No - it's an example that no airplane is perfect and most issues are dealt by AD and taken care of over time. They are not grounded for things like wire bundles needing separation.

I would ask you not to look at the one about Fuel on that list the one from 2019-24-01 that EASA is fighting.


Just like your 'blame it on the pilots' mantra, the new angle is 'well, all the ADs are equal to the MAX clusterf**k'.

Newsflash: they're not, so stop conflating them. It's misleading and just smacks of desperation.


I never said they were equal just that issues such as these (wire bundle seperation and junk found in fuel tanks) are routinely covered by AD's and gave example's.

MCAS is a unique issue at new level on the scale of issues.
 
Thatcher
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:04 pm

I am reading reports of airlines rebranding the MAX to things like '737-8' to get away from the now-toxic 'MAX' branding. I don't imagine this is news to anyone here.
https://simpleflying.com/tui-becomes-latest-airline-to-drop-boeing-737-max-branding/

I am wondering though, is there anything stopping Boeing calling it the '737-NEO' in the future? You know, to really muddy the waters.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:18 pm

beechnut wrote:
Air Canada is reportedly starting to think about a post-MAX world:

https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... ec-airbus/

They are considering an A321LR/XLR and A330 NEO order according to the link. Especially interesting was this part (my translation):

"I think... we have examined various scenarios internally. I think we have pretty good flexibility until roughly the end of the year. After that it becomes more difficult because the maintenance costs will increase and these aircraft must be returned to their lessors for that reason. However certainly we have reasonable flexibility until the end of the year" (Mike Rousseau, VP finance, AC management conference call).

Mr. Rousseau's declaration means that Air Canada would find it difficult to continue using current solutions in 2021, The company must therefore consider longer-term replacement solutions. These solutions will take more time to deploy and they need to be decided well before the end of 2020. June 30 is therefore an important date for the future of the MAX in Air Canada's fleet. If by this date Boeing is still working on problems, Air Canada will need to find a more durable solution.


Beech


This is also very telling:
The aging fleet of Air Canada's B767-300ER requires increasingly urgent replacement. The intermediate aircraft market includes aircraft between 200 and 300 passengers in size. The passable distance of these aircraft is between 3,500nm and 5,000nm.

With a capacity of nearly 200 passengers, the 737MAX9 had to meet part of Air Canada's needs in this market segment. But in 2018 the company postponed the delivery of its first MAX9 to 2023. The same year, the transporter bought 4 used A330-300 as well as 4 used A321ceo. It became increasingly clear that the MAX9 was not suitable and that Air Canada was looking for another solution.

Purchasing used A321 and A330 was an important strategic choice for Air Canada; initially, it made it possible to respond quickly to its needs on the market for medium-sized aircraft. It also allowed Air Canada to keep Airbus as a viable option in this market segment. The airline could then wait for Boeing to launch the program to replace the B767 in order to compare with the Airbus offer.


We are now in a situation where June 30th will be missed and NLA will go back to a clean sheet. What wasn't envisioned when this article was published was Coronavirus. If it drags on into 2021, they may have a bit more of a runway for AC with all of the lift which is no longer flying to Asia.

Just a totally uneducated guess, but I think we will see that A321XLR/A330NEO order materialize. Furthermore, I see the Max's leaving, with more interim lift being introduced via used A330's and any used A32X's that they can find.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2558
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:35 pm

Thatcher wrote:
I am reading reports of airlines rebranding the MAX to things like '737-8' to get away from the now-toxic 'MAX' branding. I don't imagine this is news to anyone here.
https://simpleflying.com/tui-becomes-latest-airline-to-drop-boeing-737-max-branding/

I am wondering though, is there anything stopping Boeing calling it the '737-NEO' in the future? You know, to really muddy the waters.

I would guess that Airbus has trademarked NEO in aviation uses.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:04 pm

TC957 wrote:
With yet another RTS delay to at least Q4 2020 now, Boeing really must decide to abandon the MAX for once and for all and restart making -800/900's again. Because :
Public perception to the MAX
Airlines demanding compensation, and any new orders for the MAX will be at such a reduced margin / profit for Boeing at a time when their cash reserves are taking a bashing.
Costs involved in restarting MAX production and satisfying the world's aviation regulators.
Costs involved in returning stored aircraft to RTS status.
Just get on with putting the MAX out of it's miserable existence and build the NMA, a scaled down 4000nm 200 seater narrow-bodied mini-787.


Q4?? Do you have a link for this announcement?
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:25 pm

morrisond wrote:
767333ER wrote:
bgm wrote:

Which other aircraft have garbage left in 80% of the fuel tanks by careless workers?

They don’t (I hope). That’s a Boeing thing and it’s not surprising considering the other horror stories of those lines in Renton. It’s just an attempt to make Boeing not look as bad or as incompetent as they are. I think it’s very telling that the link provided is rigged up to automatically search 320... Blatantly apparent company bias.


No - it's an example that no airplane is perfect and most issues are dealt by AD and taken care of over time. They are not grounded for things like wire bundles needing separation.

I would ask you not to look at the one about Fuel on that list the one from 2019-24-01 that EASA is fighting.

No airplanes are perfect, but that doesn’t make them equal. You could’ve linked to an E190 or a Dash 8 or even an A310 or something, but no, you picked the A320 which shows that you are making an obvious point here. We are discussing the 737 and you use it’s direct competitor as an example.

Fuel system problems are scary. TWA800 was scary. The thing is you almost never have anything go wrong. The A320 had a worse AD for the fuel system in the past with one of its type of fuel pumps (Eaton type 8410 I believe if you want to search it up) particularly in the centre tank which is why the A321 was not affected. It never actually was a problem but all these pumps were replaced. What would happen IIRC is a screw would fall loose and fall into the mechanism causing a short which could ignite fuel vapors assuming the inerting measures don’t work. It sounds like a lightening strike is more likely than that.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
SDL
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:36 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:29 pm

I see that a Southwest max 8 N8703J is up and flying. Is it still Boeing tests or some kind of certification flights? It feels like the Boeing mcas tests should be done.

edit: im not good with flightradar but it seems its testing mcas.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:48 pm

Cruiser wrote:
We are now in a situation where June 30th will be missed and NLA will go back to a clean sheet. What wasn't envisioned when this article was published was Coronavirus. If it drags on into 2021, they may have a bit more of a runway for AC with all of the lift which is no longer flying to Asia.

Just a totally uneducated guess, but I think we will see that A321XLR/A330NEO order materialize. Furthermore, I see the Max's leaving, with more interim lift being introduced via used A330's and any used A32X's that they can find.


I agree. With coronavirus putting a slump on demand, it gives airlines time to rethink their scenarios and consider Airbus orders. Note that it's not just travel restrictions, but the longer term economic impact, particularly if banks fail. The DOW dropped 1000 points yesterday.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
upright
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:52 am

There are now two changes on the Boeing board of directors and continue to point out again shareholder needs on high priority, said Mr. Akhil Johri.
“Boeing has a respected history of delivering on its commitments to stakeholders, and I look forward to supporting the continuation of that track record as a member of its board,” said Johri.
https://asianaviation.com/boeing-nomina ... directors/
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:33 pm

Aviator34ID wrote:
TC957 wrote:
With yet another RTS delay to at least Q4 2020 now, Boeing really must decide to abandon the MAX for once and for all and restart making -800/900's again. Because :
Public perception to the MAX
Airlines demanding compensation, and any new orders for the MAX will be at such a reduced margin / profit for Boeing at a time when their cash reserves are taking a bashing.
Costs involved in restarting MAX production and satisfying the world's aviation regulators.
Costs involved in returning stored aircraft to RTS status.
Just get on with putting the MAX out of it's miserable existence and build the NMA, a scaled down 4000nm 200 seater narrow-bodied mini-787.


Q4?? Do you have a link for this announcement?


Same question. Last I saw was a certification flight in April or May. Based upon prior timelines that would be recertification in May or June. Last I checked those are both Q2.

Additional issues could lead to further delays but Q2 seems plausible with all information I have seen.
 
upright
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:45 pm

RTS never will happen, it is just a Boeing/FAA show right from the beginning MAR 2019. Boeing always knew the Max is much too wrong to be fixed.
 
StTim
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:07 pm

upright wrote:
RTS never will happen, it is just a Boeing/FAA show right from the beginning MAR 2019. Boeing always knew the Max is much too wrong to be fixed.


If Boeing knew that no way would they have kept on churning out frames during the grounding.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:08 pm

planecane wrote:
Aviator34ID wrote:
TC957 wrote:
With yet another RTS delay to at least Q4 2020 now, Boeing really must decide to abandon the MAX for once and for all and restart making -800/900's again. Because :
Public perception to the MAX
Airlines demanding compensation, and any new orders for the MAX will be at such a reduced margin / profit for Boeing at a time when their cash reserves are taking a bashing.
Costs involved in restarting MAX production and satisfying the world's aviation regulators.
Costs involved in returning stored aircraft to RTS status.
Just get on with putting the MAX out of it's miserable existence and build the NMA, a scaled down 4000nm 200 seater narrow-bodied mini-787.


Q4?? Do you have a link for this announcement?


Same question. Last I saw was a certification flight in April or May. Based upon prior timelines that would be recertification in May or June. Last I checked those are both Q2.

Additional issues could lead to further delays but Q2 seems plausible with all information I have seen.


The latest I have seen is that US airlines have already ruled them out for the summer schedule: https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -b737-max/

They obviously know something...
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
upright
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:36 pm

StTim wrote:
upright wrote:
RTS never will happen, it is just a Boeing/FAA show right from the beginning MAR 2019. Boeing always knew the Max is much too wrong to be fixed.

If Boeing knew that no way would they have kept on churning out frames during the grounding.

of course, Boeing wanted to pretend just a tiny little (software-)mistake to be fixed to prevent the cuming big bill not being in charge for on purpose.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 777ER, ADent, airplaneboy, aschachter, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], cedarjet, COSPN, FromCDGtoSYD, GLANKG, lammified, Majestic-12 [Bot], n757kw, Ncfc99, Speedbird747436, tjwgrr, Tolmachevo, vandoc, VS11, xyzzy01 and 185 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos