• 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9739
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:22 pm

bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.
.

Well the current head of the FAA says that before he unground's the MAX he intends to fly it himself with his family, so if it does not lawn dart itself with the head of the FAA at the controls it should be perfectly safe for the rest of the mere mortals in this world. As the head of the FAA does he need to ensure that his license is current for him to perform a test flight or is he exempt based on his position?
 
THS214
Posts: 316
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:23 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
IN light of the Corona virus drama playing out in China, I can see a scenario where the Chinese
defer all their undelivered Max's for quite some time, maybe even moving to the back of the line and have
their frames be the last ones delivered out of the stored inventory.


Good point.

Chinese authorities can do so that not approve MAX and therefore no deliveries to China as well as not let them fly to China or their airspace.
 
THS214
Posts: 316
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:40 pm

par13del wrote:
bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.
.

Well the current head of the FAA says that before he unground's the MAX he intends to fly it himself with his family, so if it does not lawn dart itself with the head of the FAA at the controls it should be perfectly safe for the rest of the mere mortals in this world. As the head of the FAA does he need to ensure that his license is current for him to perform a test flight or is he exempt based on his position?


I always hate these rhetorical non sense. Does he own the family and they have no chose? I'm sure the kids love it.
 
kurtverbose
Posts: 574
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:33 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting comments on simulators from Boeing's VP of Marketing:

One key element of returning the jet to service is training pilots on simulators. While countries like India have advised Boeing to set up simulators locally, Tinseth on Tuesday said existing equipment should cover all training requirements.

The training that will be linked to the Max is manageable with the simulators that are in the market,” Tinseth said. “If we look at the footprint today that we see in the market, we look at the retraining that is going to be needed to bring those planes back into the marketplace, we’re OK.”

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t-to-skies

I'm having a hard time connecting the dots.

Is he saying enough MAX-specific sims are out there, or that NG sims can be repurposed for the training?


A recent Leeham article reported there are 36 MAX simulators currently in service, but more on order.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/10/cae-r ... roduction/


Can't remember where I saw it, but I thought re-training of pilots would cost Boeing $5 billion. They're going to need a lot more simulators.
 
seb76
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:52 pm

THS214 wrote:
par13del wrote:
bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.
.

Well the current head of the FAA says that before he unground's the MAX he intends to fly it himself with his family, so if it does not lawn dart itself with the head of the FAA at the controls it should be perfectly safe for the rest of the mere mortals in this world. As the head of the FAA does he need to ensure that his license is current for him to perform a test flight or is he exempt based on his position?


I always hate these rhetorical non sense. Does he own the family and they have no chose? I'm sure the kids love it.


Fully agree. He should at least swear on the bible when he says things like that !
 
planecane
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:06 pm

bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.

What do you think will happen if yet another MAX kamikazed itself? That'd be the end of the MAX program.


No matter how "evil and greedy" Boeing is, you can be that they don't need the FAA to ensure they get this fix right. Another MAX crash caused by a design flaw will be the end of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft division.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:24 pm

snowkarl wrote:
The public never wants the plane to fly again.

That's an emotional, knee jerk statement.

Tell people that their favorite trip is going to go up by $20 due to the costs of keeping old planes running longer than planned and they will be ready to tell themselves that they are OK with flying the 737 again.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18262
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:29 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I can more reasonably turn that around and use the article as evidence that the FAA is continuing to "punish" Boeing.


I spoke too soon! :rotfl:

MSPNWA wrote:
It exposed the moving goalposts and illogical fixes required.


Which goalposts have moved and which fixes are illogical?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:29 pm

THS214 wrote:
I always hate these rhetorical non sense.

planecane wrote:
bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.

What do you think will happen if yet another MAX kamikazed itself? That'd be the end of the MAX program.

No matter how "evil and greedy" Boeing is, you can be that they don't need the FAA to ensure they get this fix right. Another MAX crash caused by a design flaw will be the end of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft division.

Speaking of rhetorical nonsense...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:04 pm

What we're hearing on potential RTS is from the FAA, certification flights will be the major goalpost when they happen.

But what about the other regulators, what have EASA or Canada, or any of the others for that matter said publicly recently?

Is there any update on the wiring issues EASA wanted sorted, or has that been swept under the rug now? Trim wheel issues, how was this resolved?

Just curious as I'll I've been seeing was FAA while silence from other regulators!
 
744SPX
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
THS214 wrote:
I always hate these rhetorical non sense.

planecane wrote:
bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.

What do you think will happen if yet another MAX kamikazed itself? That'd be the end of the MAX program.

No matter how "evil and greedy" Boeing is, you can be that they don't need the FAA to ensure they get this fix right. Another MAX crash caused by a design flaw will be the end of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft division.

Speaking of rhetorical nonsense...


It would end the MAX, but not BCA.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:30 pm

bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.

What do you think will happen if yet another MAX kamikazed itself? That'd be the end of the MAX program.


FYI... Max's have been flying test and re-positioning flights around Puget Sound since the grounding last March.,

and not one has "lawn darted" into anything.

After the anal exam this airframe has been thru, it'll be the safest plane in the skies once it returns to service .

You'll have better odds of being killed in a car crash to or from the airport .
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:35 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
What we're hearing on potential RTS is from the FAA, certification flights will be the major goalpost when they happen.

But what about the other regulators, what have EASA or Canada, or any of the others for that matter said publicly recently?

Is there any update on the wiring issues EASA wanted sorted, or has that been swept under the rug now? Trim wheel issues, how was this resolved?

Just curious as I'll I've been seeing was FAA while silence from other regulators!

The NYT article recently posted here said the wiring separation issue was still a subject of disagreement.

The Reuters article citing the FAA Administrator spoke to working closely with international regulators.

It seems FAA will not go forward till all major areas of disagreement are resolved.

I'm not sure we can say trim wheel size is a major area of disagreement, nor many of the other things people have raised at various times on this thread.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:38 pm

744SPX wrote:
Revelation wrote:
THS214 wrote:
I always hate these rhetorical non sense.

planecane wrote:
No matter how "evil and greedy" Boeing is, you can be that they don't need the FAA to ensure they get this fix right. Another MAX crash caused by a design flaw will be the end of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft division.

Speaking of rhetorical nonsense...


It would end the MAX, but not BCA.


With the main cash flow generator turned off permanently they would be a different company, and would take sometime to recover if needing time to replace it.
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
What we're hearing on potential RTS is from the FAA, certification flights will be the major goalpost when they happen.

But what about the other regulators, what have EASA or Canada, or any of the others for that matter said publicly recently?

Is there any update on the wiring issues EASA wanted sorted, or has that been swept under the rug now? Trim wheel issues, how was this resolved?

Just curious as I'll I've been seeing was FAA while silence from other regulators!

The NYT article recently posted here said the wiring separation issue was still a subject of disagreement.

The Reuters article citing the FAA Administrator spoke to working closely with international regulators.

It seems FAA will not go forward till all major areas of disagreement are resolved.

I'm not sure we can say trim wheel size is a major area of disagreement, nor many of the other things people have raised at various times on this thread.


I was hoping it would be you to respond :D

Is the wiring issue, or potential issue, something that could delay the certification flights? or is this something that could be dealt with after those flights, but would need to be examined and dealt with, or confirmed ok, prior to RTS?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:06 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Is the wiring issue, or potential issue, something that could delay the certification flights? or is this something that could be dealt with after those flights, but would need to be examined and dealt with, or confirmed ok, prior to RTS?

The wire separation issue is really problematic because it was something Boeing found when it was asked to look for any potential issues related to MCAS now being needed for certification. In the current climate I can't see how it could be deferred to after RTS. Clearly it is in Boeing's best interest Boeing that the current design can be allowed. If not, I'd say they'd need to make whatever changes are needed and schedule a new round of certification flights.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:07 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Is the wiring issue, or potential issue, something that could delay the certification flights? or is this something that could be dealt with after those flights, but would need to be examined and dealt with, or confirmed ok, prior to RTS?

The wire separation issue is really problematic because it was something Boeing found when it was asked to look for any potential issues related to MCAS now being needed for certification. In the current climate I can't see how it could be deferred to after RTS. Clearly it is in Boeing's best interest Boeing that the current design can be allowed. If not, I'd say they'd need to make whatever changes are needed and schedule a new round of certification flights.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
asdf
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:58 pm

744SPX wrote:
Revelation wrote:
THS214 wrote:
I always hate these rhetorical non sense.

planecane wrote:
No matter how "evil and greedy" Boeing is, you can be that they don't need the FAA to ensure they get this fix right. Another MAX crash caused by a design flaw will be the end of Boeing's Commercial Aircraft division.

Speaking of rhetorical nonsense...


It would end the MAX, but not BCA.


well, they would re-name it one time more ....
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9739
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:08 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Is there any update on the wiring issues EASA wanted sorted, or has that been swept under the rug now?

Why would EASA sweep anything under the rug?
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4062
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:15 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
bgm wrote:
The FAA need to be 110% sure the MAX isn't going to lawn-dart itself if/when it goes back into service.
What do you think will happen if yet another MAX kamikazed itself? That'd be the end of the MAX program.

FYI... Max's have been flying test and re-positioning flights around Puget Sound since the grounding last March. and not one has "lawn darted" into anything.

After the anal exam this airframe has been thru, it'll be the safest plane in the skies once it returns to service .

You'll have better odds of being killed in a car crash to or from the airport .


No issues in a couple of thousands of re-positioning flights proves . . . . a.b.s.o.l.u.t.e.l.y. .n.o.t.h.i.n.g.

Modern planes (should) have fatal accidents in the order of magnitude of once every 50 million (!!!) flights. Max MCAS 1.0 had two fatals in 0.25 million flights.

The anal exam the Max is going thru is just to make sure all design certification checks and balances, controls, operating procedures, training etc. are in place (properly independently reviewed) to make sure it can approach these same statistics as modern airframes do.

And no, I don't believe you were more likley to get killed in a car crash than MCAS 1.0 ruining your day . . . (although such does depend on one's driving style).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4062
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Is the wiring issue, or potential issue, something that could delay the certification flights? or is this something that could be dealt with after those flights, but would need to be examined and dealt with, or confirmed ok, prior to RTS?

The wire separation issue is really problematic because it was something Boeing found when it was asked to look for any potential issues related to MCAS now being needed for certification. In the current climate I can't see how it could be deferred to after RTS. Clearly it is in Boeing's best interest Boeing that the current design can be allowed. If not, I'd say they'd need to make whatever changes are needed and schedule a new round of certification flights.


While the FCC inter-communication and sensor comparison would sufficiently de-risk MCAS run-away from false AoA input, the wire issue was another MCAS risk area.

As I understand it, the wire issue was seen as another "enabler" of MCAS run-away. But this time down stream of FCC, not safe guarded by MCAS 2.0 software.

As MCAS runaway has now been put in the highest risk category (Catastrophic), Boeing must demonstrate extremely low level of risk associated with the wires. Which is a horrendously tough task on non-redundant flight control system. Usually it is way easier to just improve the wiring, shielding and clearances . . .

It seems very likely indeed that this must be addressed prior to RtS.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:42 pm

Boeing fires mid-level executive - Keith Cooper - who oversaw the two technical/test pilots whose email messages in 2016 were revealed to the public on Jan 9, 2020.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fir ... 1581521922

Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9739
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:52 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?

Retaliation for what, having poor leadership skills, allowing a toxic work environment, failure to enforce proper discipline among staff, no implementation of sensitivity training, failure to destroy incriminating e-mails......just saying retaliation covers a wide rage of potential issues....to name a few.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:00 pm

par13del wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?

Retaliation for what, having poor leadership skills, allowing a toxic work environment, failure to enforce proper discipline among staff, no implementation of sensitivity training, failure to destroy incriminating e-mails......just saying retaliation covers a wide rage of potential issues....to name a few.


I don't know what the specifics are surrounding the firing, but the optics aren't good. Firing the manager of two employees who were to some degree trying to blow the whistle on Boeing's inadequate engineering processes, sends a signal that you can lose your job if you speak up. The only positive view is if the manager/executive:
(a) was aware of the emails in 2016 when they occurred - that's not likely unless he was CC'd on those emails or he had some special guy in IT to give him access, or
(b) was a part of verbal communication on the subject
AND
(c) he failed to act appropriately, whatever that means.

EDIT: The other positive view is if the manager was identified as setting up a compartmentalized test approach that limited information sharing between test pilots and technical pilots, and between pilots and systems engineers. Or limited information sharing of test bugs to systems engineers - a process called "failure disposition". And so the firing was to correct that approach. Even then, it's hard to believe that approach wasn't directed from those up the chain of command. It will be interesting to know whether he was fired or if he was forced to resign with a hefty severance package in return for a signed NDA, effectively tying off the loose end.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:45 pm

par13del wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?

Retaliation for what, having poor leadership skills, allowing a toxic work environment, failure to enforce proper discipline among staff, no implementation of sensitivity training, failure to destroy incriminating e-mails......just saying retaliation covers a wide rage of potential issues....to name a few.

When you strip away the colorful language and deceptive practices, you also find a program in deep trouble with key employees working crazy hours trying to salvage a set of poor decisions made by higher level managers.

The message dump also referred to 77x as having similar issues with its sim.

A quick google showed this guy was pretty active on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithlcooper
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
smartplane
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:45 am

enzo011 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Then why were they being so secretive up until now? The public pleaded for months to get information on when they expected the Max to fly again and got nothing.


Can you give examples of the public “pleading with the FAA” for information on MAX?



By public I suspect the poster means his friends who works at Boeing. There must be some workers at Boeing who must feel the FAA is out to get them.

Would have thought the vast majority of Boeing staff, especially those involved in design, engineering and production, welcome the FAA scrutiny, and the re-affirmation of quality, safety, and 'doing it once, and doing it right'. Professional managers, and staff who went over to the dark side, should certainly feel the FAA is out to get them. Where justified, hopefully they do.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:39 am

Revelation wrote:
A quick google showed this guy was pretty active on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithlcooper


Hmmm, from his LinkedIn page, he was working at Cubic in 2016 when the emails at Boeing were happening. Certainly a failure to go along with further corrupt practices would fit the scenario of his now firing. Would be interesting if he decides to come forward with anything, assuming he hasn't signed a NDA. On a side note, it doesn't look good for Boeing to bring someone in from outside, right at the time of certification. It begs the question what happened to the guy he replaced?
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 820
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Boeing fires mid-level executive - Keith Cooper - who oversaw the two technical/test pilots whose email messages in 2016 were revealed to the public on Jan 9, 2020.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fir ... 1581521922

Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?

Since Boeing announced a little time ago that the Test Pilot and Technical Pilot groups were to be re-combined, the position may just have been redundant.

Ray
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9211
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:32 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Boeing fires mid-level executive - Keith Cooper - who oversaw the two technical/test pilots whose email messages in 2016 were revealed to the public on Jan 9, 2020.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-fir ... 1581521922

Any reason this could be anything other than retaliation? Or are we to believe he was fired for not correcting low morale?


Absolutely correct, he should have kept the communication in his department clean.
 
TMccrury
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:24 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding News and Reference Thread 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:53 pm

I am here in Jakarta, Indonesia and as we exited the airport today, I saw several of the Lion Air Max's parked. Obviously, they have been parked for a while. The engines were covered and from my vantage point, that was really all I could see that was done to them.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:02 pm

FAA Chief Dickson gave more details about the RTS process:

The next major milestone in the RTS process is a certification flight, the timing of which is not yet firm but is expected within the next few weeks. The flight will be conducted by FAA test pilots and is intended to confirm whether Boeing’s software fixes on the MAX bring the airplane within FAA transport aircraft standards.

“When we finally make the decision to return the aircraft to service, it will be the most scrutinized aircraft in history,” said Dickson. “I’m also not going to sign off on the aircraft until I fly it myself.”

Dickson said that he and Deputy Administrator Dan Elwell, both licensed commercial pilots, will complete the simulator and computer-based training recommended by Boeing. “But we don’t want to have our thumb on the scale. We’ve got international crews and US crews coming into evaluate those [training] proposals, and we’ll have to see how they perform and whether any modifications for the building proposal [are required].”


“Once that [flight] is completed,” Dickson added, “I think we’ll have a good bit more clarity on where the process goes forward from here.” Within days after the flight, the FAA and other regulators will being joint validation of Boeing’s training proposal. The results will be forwarded to the flight standardization board, which will issue a final report defining MAX training requirements. That will be subject to a public comment period.

The minimum time from certification flight to potentially ungrounding the MAX is 30 days, Dickson estimated. During that time, a technical advisory board must issue its final findings for aircraft modifications and a minimum master equipment list (MEL) must be approved. The latter has been available for public comment since early December.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/13/max-7 ... re-airshow

Very interesting that Dickson and Ewell will both take the training and do sim flights.

I think the modifications to the "building proposal" are inevitable since human learning is so subjective, and everyone is going to want their $0.02 to be a part of the "building proposal".

Boeing must be deeply afraid of this all going open loop very quickly.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
hivue
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
Very interesting that Dickson and Ewell will both take the training and do sim flights.


And fly the airplane - “I’m also not going to sign off on the aircraft until I fly it myself.”

How useful is all of this? How much of Boeing's time will this take up, catering to VIPs on test flights? Are Dickson and Ewell current on the type? If not they will be flying with a Boeing PIC. How will this contribute to a timely but safe RTS? How much of this is just FAA PR?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Very interesting that Dickson and Ewell will both take the training and do sim flights.

And fly the airplane - “I’m also not going to sign off on the aircraft until I fly it myself.”

How useful is all of this? How much of Boeing's time will this take up, catering to VIPs on test flights? Are Dickson and Ewell current on the type? If not they will be flying with a Boeing PIC. How will this contribute to a timely but safe RTS? How much of this is just FAA PR?

Maybe you should do some research?

Dickson:

Dickson recently retired from service as the senior vice president of Flight Operations for Delta Air Lines.

In this role, he was responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance. He also flew in line operations as an A320 captain, and previously flew the B727, B737, B757, and B767 during his career.
...
A former United States Air Force Officer and F-15 fighter pilot, Dickson is a Distinguished Graduate of the Class of 1979 at the United States Air Force Academy, as well as a graduate of the Georgia State University College of Law, magna cum laude.


Ewell:

Elwell was a commercial pilot for 16 years with American Airlines, flying DC-10, MD-80, and B-757/767 aircraft. While maintaining his proficiency as an MD-80 Captain, he served as Managing Director for International and Government Affairs at American Airlines.

Dan earned his pilot wings at Williams Air Force Base in Arizona after graduating from the U.S. Air Force Academy with a Bachelor of Science degree in International Affairs. Lieutenant Colonel Elwell retired from military service as a Command Pilot with more than 6,000 hours combined civilian and military flight time in the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Air Force Reserve, including combat service during Operation Desert Storm.

Ref: https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials/

Both of these guys have plenty of relevant experience.

I think them both taking the training and doing the flights are a positive with regard to safety.

I think it's far better that they are personally involved, along with so many other FAA officials.

I think one of Boeing's former CEO's failings was he didn't recognize the MAX crisis for what it was, a grave threat to the entire enterprise, and didn't change his personal prioritization to get more personally involved in the situation.

I think these days Boeing must be worried that a thousand cooks will ruin the soup.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9739
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:17 pm

Revelation wrote:

Both of these guys have plenty of relevant experience.

I think them both taking the training and doing the flights are a positive with regard to safety.

I think it's far better that they are personally involved, along with so many other FAA officials.

Some like to talk about optics, do you think this undermines the quality of the FAA personnel he has on staff that he does not trust them to properly conduct the certification test flight?
On the other hand, since this is the largest "grounding" that Boeing and the FAA has every dealt with it can be all hands on deck, just curious if the certification flights are much different from what he did at DL once off the line.
 
hivue
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
Maybe you should do some research?


I wasn't questioning whether these guys are really hotshot pilots or not. I'll take your word on that. My question had to do with what their hands-on participation will accomplish vs any trade offs regarding the time it takes to cater flight operations to them, how supernumerary are they (or are they not) to the actual certification flying operations, the media attention that will surround them flying the MAX, etc. I can see your point that the positives may very well outweigh any negatives for RTS. I was just asking the question.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:56 pm

par13del wrote:
Some like to talk about optics, do you think this undermines the quality of the FAA personnel he has on staff that he does not trust them to properly conduct the certification test flight?

I get your point, but some times the big chief has to step in and be personally involved to show he/she understands the importance of a situation.

I think DM showed poor leadership as Boeing CEO for letting the underlings deal with the events while he stayed aloof in Chicago.

It can be done with sensitivity to the underlings, like bring them along for the event, let them get lots of face time with the chief, etc.

I'm pretty sure FAA has an executive jet, make sure to pack it with the underlings on the trip, etc.

hivue wrote:
I wasn't questioning whether these guys are really hotshot pilots or not. I'll take your word on that. My question had to do with what their hands-on participation will accomplish vs any trade offs regarding the time it takes to cater flight operations to them, how supernumerary are they (or are they not) to the actual certification flying operations, the media attention that will surround them flying the MAX, etc. I can see your point that the positives may very well outweigh any negatives for RTS. I was just asking the question.

Sorry, I was really just trying to address your question on currency and expanded it to cover the rest of their flying qualifications.

I'm sure there will be some "fuss and bother" around getting the FAA Admin and his deputy through the sim check and training sessions.

A lot less drama than the two rounds of testimony to Congress though.

I'm quite sure the pain is worth the gain.

Once those two gents have the full sim session and training regime then they sign off on it they are fully engaged.

Afterwords they can address any flack regarding RTS will full confidence that they understand exactly what the training issues were and how they were addressed.

Frankly I'm happy that two former commercial pilots are holding these jobs rather than some career politicians who would have no basis of understanding of exactly what went on and how it was resolved.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
majano
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 pm

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Maybe you should do some research?


I wasn't questioning whether these guys are really hotshot pilots or not. I'll take your word on that. My question had to do with what their hands-on participation will accomplish vs any trade offs regarding the time it takes to cater flight operations to them, how supernumerary are they (or are they not) to the actual certification flying operations, the media attention that will surround them flying the MAX, etc. I can see your point that the positives may very well outweigh any negatives for RTS. I was just asking the question.

It looks like the answer to your original question, using the summary Revelation made above, is that both of them are not current on the 737.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:16 pm

majano wrote:
It looks like the answer to your original question, using the summary Revelation made above, is that both of them are not current on the 737.

I agree, but I'm not so sure it's all that operative.

It's not like they need to be current or even type rated to do a test flight, the normal rules of commercial operations do not apply.

The first time MAX flew there were zero type rated pilots on MAX.

The rules for R&D are different than the ones for commercial operation.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
hivue
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sorry, I was really just trying to address your question on currency and expanded it to cover the rest of their flying qualifications.


No problem.

There's something of a "scandal" currently involving WN flying revenue flights with inaccurate weight and and balance paperwork and missing maintenance histories for airplanes purchased second hand, and the local FAA office that watches over them not doing due diligence overseeing WN operations. It's not likely that were the head of the FAA to say he was going to run up to BWI and visit a few flight decks to check load sheets, and then go down to DAL to look at a few mx histories would add anything to fixing the problems. But the MAX fiasco has so much higher a PR profile that Dickson and Ewell flying the airplane and providing their personal impressions may very well be helpful.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
Frankly I'm happy that two former commercial pilots are holding these jobs rather than some career politicians who would have no basis of understanding of exactly what went on and how it was resolved.


They could hold other jobs within the FAA to accomplish the goal of having their input on certification. The top of the FAA needs to have people with engineering background. Any prior commercial pilot experience, IMHO, is a conflict of interest in that position.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:48 pm

Boeing 737MAX customer sues Boeing and wants to return its 737MAXs.

Yep.. lawsuit filed.. however it is only concerning two 737MAX BBJ’s.

Its remarkable how quiet the airlines have been.. even MOL at Ryanair, maybe they are happy to take the compensation payments from Boeing. Even if they cancel their 737MAX orders they would have to go to the back of the queue for Airbus’s.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/13/boein ... r-737-max/
 
kalvado
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:03 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Frankly I'm happy that two former commercial pilots are holding these jobs rather than some career politicians who would have no basis of understanding of exactly what went on and how it was resolved.


They could hold other jobs within the FAA to accomplish the goal of having their input on certification. The top of the FAA needs to have people with engineering background. Any prior commercial pilot experience, IMHO, is a conflict of interest in that position.

And where engineers with enough airspace background would come from? It will be either Boeing , Sikorsky, GE, or an airline. Maybe a few similar companies, like Lockheed. Still apparently not free from past links.
NASA may be, but NASA experience is not as applicable; and a lot of work is done by contractors anyway.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3638
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:41 am

scbriml wrote:
Which goalposts have moved and which fixes are illogical?


Woah, rewind the tape. I gave you some insight to those questions. You made the first claim. How about for a change you state your reasons to back up your opinion. I expect a healthy amount of them since in your opinion the article isn't just evidence, it is the proof that ends the debate.

hivue wrote:
How useful is all of this? How much of Boeing's time will this take up, catering to VIPs on test flights? Are Dickson and Ewell current on the type? If not they will be flying with a Boeing PIC. How will this contribute to a timely but safe RTS? How much of this is just FAA PR?


I can think of two things this is good for: PR, ego, or a combination of the two. Neither are acceptable reasons for a neutral regulator. This will do nothing to contribute to a proper and timely RTS.

Revelation wrote:
Both of these guys have plenty of relevant experience.


Where in that "relevant" experience is signing off on the certification of an aircraft? Face it, they don't have significantly relevant experience. Simply flying an airliner isn't relevant. If it was, we'd have hundreds of thousands of people qualified to sign off on certification. Ensuring your airline follows the rules and regulations isn't significantly relevant either. You're a rules taker, not a maker. You had nothing to do with the certification of the aircraft you are flying. It's actually very concerning that they have apparently taken up an autocratic position. The FAA employs people that are highly qualified for the job of signing off on an airplane. Neither Dickson nor Ewell are one of them.
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:31 am

flyingphil wrote:
Boeing 737MAX customer sues Boeing and wants to return its 737MAXs.

Yep.. lawsuit filed.. however it is only concerning two 737MAX BBJ’s.

Its remarkable how quiet the airlines have been.. even MOL at Ryanair, maybe they are happy to take the compensation payments from Boeing. Even if they cancel their 737MAX orders they would have to go to the back of the queue for Airbus’s.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/13/boein ... r-737-max/


Timaero sued before Christmas seeking to return 2 and to get out of a contract for 2 dozen signed in 2014, seeking return of deposits and compensation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.4119070

https://www.barrons.com/articles/jet-le ... 1576700157
Last edited by ShamrockBoi330 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
hivue
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:33 am

flyingphil wrote:
Its remarkable how quiet the airlines have been


Not really. If they make noise they get noticed. If they get noticed, they get recognized as un-indicted co-conspirators.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:37 am

kalvado wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Frankly I'm happy that two former commercial pilots are holding these jobs rather than some career politicians who would have no basis of understanding of exactly what went on and how it was resolved.


They could hold other jobs within the FAA to accomplish the goal of having their input on certification. The top of the FAA needs to have people with engineering background. Any prior commercial pilot experience, IMHO, is a conflict of interest in that position.

And where engineers with enough airspace background would come from? It will be either Boeing , Sikorsky, GE, or an airline. Maybe a few similar companies, like Lockheed. Still apparently not free from past links.
NASA may be, but NASA experience is not as applicable; and a lot of work is done by contractors anyway.


There's always going to be a connection either way. An engineer is going to have a better background to understand complex systems and their longterm impact. Does a pilot understand sensor redundancy fail-safe design, fault tree analysis, risk assessment, etc?

EDIT: A pilot is somebody who can be convinced that a repetitive MCAS could be interpreted as runaway trim, especially if that pilot doesn't understand the difference between a malfunction of a system, and a malfunction of the inputs to that system. Someone at the top of Boeing, and someone at the top of FAA, convinced themselves that because MCAS was rarely used in a rare part of the flight envelope, that they didn't need to look further.

EDIT: On the contrary, an engineer would look at the system in the context of the regulations and the process for certification.
Last edited by sgrow787 on Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:43 am

sgrow787 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

They could hold other jobs within the FAA to accomplish the goal of having their input on certification. The top of the FAA needs to have people with engineering background. Any prior commercial pilot experience, IMHO, is a conflict of interest in that position.

And where engineers with enough airspace background would come from? It will be either Boeing , Sikorsky, GE, or an airline. Maybe a few similar companies, like Lockheed. Still apparently not free from past links.
NASA may be, but NASA experience is not as applicable; and a lot of work is done by contractors anyway.


There's always going to be a connection either way. An engineer is going to have a better background to understand complex systems and their longterm impact. Does a pilot understand sensor redundancy fail-safe design, fault tree analysis, risk assessment, etc?

FAA has many other responsibilities, including ATC, crew regulations and certification, and general aviation oversight just to name a few. Would engineer be better off in those roles?
 
sgrow787
Posts: 397
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:57 am

kalvado wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And where engineers with enough airspace background would come from? It will be either Boeing , Sikorsky, GE, or an airline. Maybe a few similar companies, like Lockheed. Still apparently not free from past links.
NASA may be, but NASA experience is not as applicable; and a lot of work is done by contractors anyway.


There's always going to be a connection either way. An engineer is going to have a better background to understand complex systems and their longterm impact. Does a pilot understand sensor redundancy fail-safe design, fault tree analysis, risk assessment, etc?

FAA has many other responsibilities, including ATC, crew regulations and certification, and general aviation oversight just to name a few. Would engineer be better off in those roles?


I think you should look at it in the context of who you want at the intersection of new products entering the public space. Short answer: not necessarily [would an engineer be better off in the roles you stated above].
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:51 am

sgrow787 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

There's always going to be a connection either way. An engineer is going to have a better background to understand complex systems and their longterm impact. Does a pilot understand sensor redundancy fail-safe design, fault tree analysis, risk assessment, etc?

FAA has many other responsibilities, including ATC, crew regulations and certification, and general aviation oversight just to name a few. Would engineer be better off in those roles?


I think you should look at it in the context of who you want at the intersection of new products entering the public space. Short answer: not necessarily [would an engineer be better off in the roles you stated above].

That basically means that head of certification department - or whatever that structure is called within FAA - has to be an engineer.
FAA is a big organization with a political role, so it could be headed by a lawyer, politician, or (god forbids) professional MBA to coordinate different branches and roles. Pilot on top is a very encouraging fact from my perspective.
Personal Dickenson involvement is MAX flight testing, IMHO, is technically meaningless - but efficient as an inexpensive PR stunt covering the "promoting aviation" side of FAA without giving up on any regulatory role.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 22660
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, February 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:08 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Both of these guys have plenty of relevant experience.

Where in that "relevant" experience is signing off on the certification of an aircraft? Face it, they don't have significantly relevant experience. Simply flying an airliner isn't relevant. If it was, we'd have hundreds of thousands of people qualified to sign off on certification. Ensuring your airline follows the rules and regulations isn't significantly relevant either. You're a rules taker, not a maker. You had nothing to do with the certification of the aircraft you are flying. It's actually very concerning that they have apparently taken up an autocratic position. The FAA employs people that are highly qualified for the job of signing off on an airplane. Neither Dickson nor Ewell are one of them.

A) I think the guy who was "responsible for the safety and operational performance of Delta's global flight operations, as well as pilot training, crew resources, crew scheduling, and regulatory compliance" has a lot of relevant experience that hundreds of thousands of line pilots probably would not have.
B) All he did was mention his own sign off, he didn't say it would be the only sign off that would happen.
C) A person who was in charge of DL's pilot training in addition to being a line pilot is a great person to provide an evaluation of the new training package, and again, there's no evidence that he'll be the only one doing so.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 9

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos