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767333ER
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:41 pm

What happens to this 300nmi range when the plane gets stuck in a hold or has to divert to an alternate? Is this 300 miles considering that possibility or can it literally only fly for 300 miles; if it’s the latter, that is basically useless for anything more than 20-30 mins of flying.

I have nothing against green stuff but it’s all PR until they actually make and fly an electric plane that can do 45 min turns and can fly as far as a normal plane. That’s a long way away.
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airnorth
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:43 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 300 mile range would connect most of the small towns in 'flyover' country to a major/regional airport. I see 20-50 passenger, one pilot electric planes changing the economics of living in more isolated areas. Likely they would operate like our Washington State ferries - if a medical passenger needs immediate service the hell with schedule. And no one complains. They also do most of the marine emergencies in the central Puget Sound. Even stop for quicky burial services (cremains only!). Travel, normal medical, emergency ambulance, package cargo, tourism, AirBnB all fit well as a package.


I agree, and that is exactly the thinking at Harbour Air right next door in B.C. I'm sure you followed that thread as well, for those who missed it,
viewtopic.php?t=1418841
 
AirFiero
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:14 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
Nothing more than free publicity and spin to boost "green image".

Big electric powered planes are decades away, and battery technology needs more than a quantum leap to be a credible alternative both in terms of energy density and reliability.
And good luck getting them certified with the firehazards of the current battery technology.

How many kilos of batteries did that electric DHC-2 need to drag around to support a 750hp engine.
Can't recall, but it was a lot, and the range was not very impressive.


Electric airplanes will, in the short term future, run on Hopium and Unobtainium. :lol:
 
pune
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:40 pm

airnorth wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 300 mile range would connect most of the small towns in 'flyover' country to a major/regional airport. I see 20-50 passenger, one pilot electric planes changing the economics of living in more isolated areas. Likely they would operate like our Washington State ferries - if a medical passenger needs immediate service the hell with schedule. And no one complains. They also do most of the marine emergencies in the central Puget Sound. Even stop for quicky burial services (cremains only!). Travel, normal medical, emergency ambulance, package cargo, tourism, AirBnB all fit well as a package.


I agree, and that is exactly the thinking at Harbour Air right next door in B.C. I'm sure you followed that thread as well, for those who missed it,
viewtopic.php?t=1418841


I did share this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdLa0PdCB5w

can anybody tell me what does B.C. in the above stand for ?
 
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william
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:58 pm

767333ER wrote:
What happens to this 300nmi range when the plane gets stuck in a hold or has to divert to an alternate? Is this 300 miles considering that possibility or can it literally only fly for 300 miles; if it’s the latter, that is basically useless for anything more than 20-30 mins of flying.

I have nothing against green stuff but it’s all PR until they actually make and fly an electric plane that can do 45 min turns and can fly as far as a normal plane. That’s a long way away.


Good realistic questions that have to be answered first before getting excited about the concept.
 
pune
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:14 pm

william wrote:
767333ER wrote:
What happens to this 300nmi range when the plane gets stuck in a hold or has to divert to an alternate? Is this 300 miles considering that possibility or can it literally only fly for 300 miles; if it’s the latter, that is basically useless for anything more than 20-30 mins of flying.

I have nothing against green stuff but it’s all PR until they actually make and fly an electric plane that can do 45 min turns and can fly as far as a normal plane. That’s a long way away.


Good realistic questions that have to be answered first before getting excited about the concept.


wish the Wright brothers have thought of that, right ?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:16 pm

pune wrote:
airnorth wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A 300 mile range would connect most of the small towns in 'flyover' country to a major/regional airport. I see 20-50 passenger, one pilot electric planes changing the economics of living in more isolated areas. Likely they would operate like our Washington State ferries - if a medical passenger needs immediate service the hell with schedule. And no one complains. They also do most of the marine emergencies in the central Puget Sound. Even stop for quicky burial services (cremains only!). Travel, normal medical, emergency ambulance, package cargo, tourism, AirBnB all fit well as a package.


I agree, and that is exactly the thinking at Harbour Air right next door in B.C. I'm sure you followed that thread as well, for those who missed it,
viewtopic.php?t=1418841


I did share this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdLa0PdCB5w

can anybody tell me what does B.C. in the above stand for ?

B.C., British Columbia; one of Canada's 10 provinces, straight across the border from the US State of Washington.
 
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william
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:46 pm

pune wrote:
william wrote:
767333ER wrote:
What happens to this 300nmi range when the plane gets stuck in a hold or has to divert to an alternate? Is this 300 miles considering that possibility or can it literally only fly for 300 miles; if it’s the latter, that is basically useless for anything more than 20-30 mins of flying.

I have nothing against green stuff but it’s all PR until they actually make and fly an electric plane that can do 45 min turns and can fly as far as a normal plane. That’s a long way away.


Good realistic questions that have to be answered first before getting excited about the concept.


wish the Wright brothers have thought of that, right ?


Doubt the Wright Brothers had to deal with ATC delays and holding patterns

Just had a line of thunderstorms come through Texas. All flights from DFW to Houston this morning were being directed southwest to Brownwood, then south near Junction, then west to Houston via San Antonio, more than "300" miles. If you want this concept to succeed, then you really want range issues fixed in the beginning of the development.
 
airnorth
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:51 pm

I think that if we first had electric powered aircraft and were then transitioning over to fossil fuel powered aircraft, we would be having very similar discussions, in general about how difficult it will be to switch fuels and motors, turn around times, and imagine putting thousands of gallons of fuel inside your aircraft?? Crazy!
This is discussed with cars in the following video, watch the first 5 mins or so, pretty thought provoking, and kind of funny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXkRcuwoIm4
 
SQ317
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:20 pm

planecane wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
How many of Easyjet flights are less than 300nm ?

I wonder if electric plane companies are not simply banking on batteries getting better and better, trying to have an airframe and engines ready when the batteries are.

What would be really interesting would be a normal ranged airplane, with an hybrid powertrain, but that's much more difficult to achieve.


I think this is a really valid point - think about how far batteries have come since 2010. The lead time for an airframe is much longer than batteries; the batteries will no doubt go through many iterations between 2023 and 2030.

They've gotten a lot cheaper but I don't think there's been any great leap in energy density.

Research seems to be in looking at lithium air batteries to reduce weight. However, those are nowhere near ready.


Perhaps not a leap but a steady increase.. take the Tesla Model S. The S85, introduced in 2012 had an EPA range of 265 miles. The S100D of today, with negligible weight difference once you consider the weight of the additional electric motor on the front axle, has an EPA range of 390 miles. That's a 47% improvement due to increased energy density and powertrain efficiency in 8 years.
 
planecane
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:45 pm

SQ317 wrote:
planecane wrote:
SQ317 wrote:

I think this is a really valid point - think about how far batteries have come since 2010. The lead time for an airframe is much longer than batteries; the batteries will no doubt go through many iterations between 2023 and 2030.

They've gotten a lot cheaper but I don't think there's been any great leap in energy density.

Research seems to be in looking at lithium air batteries to reduce weight. However, those are nowhere near ready.


Perhaps not a leap but a steady increase.. take the Tesla Model S. The S85, introduced in 2012 had an EPA range of 265 miles. The S100D of today, with negligible weight difference once you consider the weight of the additional electric motor on the front axle, has an EPA range of 390 miles. That's a 47% improvement due to increased energy density and powertrain efficiency in 8 years.


The battery of the S85 was 85kWh. The 100D is 100kWH. At most, that would be a 17.6% improvement in energy density if the battery stayed the same weight. I can't find any good source for the weight of just the battery pack.

I'm not sure how they got all the additional range. If there was a major breakthrough in lithium ion technology by Tesla, they would publicize it for sure.

When it comes to improvements for use on electric aircraft, it must pretty much all come from energy density improvements in the battery. The "engines" are just electric fans and the technology of an electric motor is not going to improve much at this point. Possibly lighter materials will be developed to make the motors lighter but the core efficiency of an electric motor is unlikely to improve.

The other issue for battery powered aircraft is that they don't become lighter as they use energy. This hurts efficiency over the entire trip.

My opinion is that for electric aircraft to be viable, either they need to use fuel cells and liquid fuel to produce electricity or there needs to be a leap in battery technology (lithium air or something) that causes a vast improvement in energy density.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:51 pm

I can't wait for the day when electric aircraft are the norm. However, this just seems like a PR stunt. A radical new configuration is not going to be what makes electric aircraft viable. When battery energy density reaches a point where it can compete 1:1 with fossil fuels then we will see aircraft in much the same configurations we see today but with electric motors and batteries in the wings. I would much rather see the R&D dollars be spent towards the battery technology - once the technology is mature enough manufacturers will be falling over themselves to incorporate into existing planforms. Of course that isn't as sexy as pictures of V-tails and distributed propulsion, but to me this is like polishing the surface of your pinewood derby car to minimize aerodynamic drag, while the real issue is you're using square wheels.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:03 am

Lingon wrote:
.. and the cynic in me can't help to think that the main purpose to have a V tail aircraft in these kind of pictures is for the futuristic look (read: marketing) ...


me too.. or else there would be allot more planes designed with it (aka C-Series, Tecnam P2102 Traveller, just to name a few recent cleansheet builds)..
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
pune
Posts: 391
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:20 pm

planecane wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
planecane wrote:
They've gotten a lot cheaper but I don't think there's been any great leap in energy density.

Research seems to be in looking at lithium air batteries to reduce weight. However, those are nowhere near ready.


Perhaps not a leap but a steady increase.. take the Tesla Model S. The S85, introduced in 2012 had an EPA range of 265 miles. The S100D of today, with negligible weight difference once you consider the weight of the additional electric motor on the front axle, has an EPA range of 390 miles. That's a 47% improvement due to increased energy density and powertrain efficiency in 8 years.


The battery of the S85 was 85kWh. The 100D is 100kWH. At most, that would be a 17.6% improvement in energy density if the battery stayed the same weight. I can't find any good source for the weight of just the battery pack.

I'm not sure how they got all the additional range. If there was a major breakthrough in lithium ion technology by Tesla, they would publicize it for sure.

When it comes to improvements for use on electric aircraft, it must pretty much all come from energy density improvements in the battery. The "engines" are just electric fans and the technology of an electric motor is not going to improve much at this point. Possibly lighter materials will be developed to make the motors lighter but the core efficiency of an electric motor is unlikely to improve.

The other issue for battery powered aircraft is that they don't become lighter as they use energy. This hurts efficiency over the entire trip.

My opinion is that for electric aircraft to be viable, either they need to use fuel cells and liquid fuel to produce electricity or there needs to be a leap in battery technology (lithium air or something) that causes a vast improvement in energy density.


This may take time but will happen for sure. In cars, users are already voting with their wallets, the same is happening in energy markets whether it is australia or UK . If more energy markets are open to companies like Tesla you will see cleaner energy there as well.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/aem ... ty-prices/ or

https://electrek.co/2020/02/17/egeb-bri ... -illinois/

battery day with Tesla is around in April and it's possible he may make some announcements. While I agree that passenger aircraft may take a few years, but cargo aircraft I envison happening in 2-5 years at the very most.

Right now Magnix is the front-runner but if they don't capitalize and work on it, somebody else will. And their is real motivation for researchers since now the inventors have customers from variety of applications, not just car manufacturers. Also Government policies are also nudging people to use cleaner fuels (not hydrogen which is expensive and just as combustible as gas.) .
 
pune
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:49 pm

Sorry for bringing up an oldish thread but just saw this and hence had to share. Seems there are at least 10-15 odd manufacturers who are looking at electric aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz4rMq9yt7Y
 
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lightsaber
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:19 am

airnorth wrote:
Interesting video on YouTube from the Canadian press on the Harbour Air Electric Plane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdLa0PdCB5w

They interview both the CEO from Harbour Air and Magnix, they discuss the number of worldwide flights under 500 miles, and under 100 miles. I found the info they have to be quite an eye opener!.

Regarding the batteries, if I recall correctly, somewhere there is an interview with Greg McDougall, Harbour Air CEO where he describes the batteries they used in the test flight as being similar to the ones used by NASA, very heavy, but also very fail safe, which they needed to convince Transport Canada to allow this flight testing to go ahead. Sorry I cannot find that interview or article right now.
Anyway, here are a couple of entrepreneurs, who along with their teams, are convinced that electric planes are not only possible, but commercially viable, and they are putting their own money, and possibly reputation behind it. I think it is really amazing, hoping nothing but success.

Does the 5% of flights less than 100 miles include general aviation? I have coworkers that commute from riverside to coastal California.

As to <500 miles being 45% of flights, I can believe that. But what about passenger flights? All of my small plane flying was < 500 miles. Fun. But it would be more informative if percentage of passengers.

There is a market. 300 miles is enough.

Most of electrical flight is very cheap maintenance. If the battery cost per flight is about normal turboprop maintenance, these aircraft will do well.

Everyone should realize these planes compete with turboprops, not a narrowbody or even a regional jet.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
JonesNL
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:01 am

pune wrote:
Sorry for bringing up an oldish thread but just saw this and hence had to share. Seems there are at least 10-15 odd manufacturers who are looking at electric aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz4rMq9yt7Y


When the electric variant of an training plane costs $3 dollar an hour in fuel compared to $50 an hour for the old variant(see video on spot 15) the electric one will prevail even when it has more constraints.

People are to much focused on an one on one comparison for Battery powered vs Jet fuel powered. We will probably never have an 737 sized battery powered vehicle, but I believe there will be an huge 50 seater sub 500 miles market for electric planes with CASM that can compete with the A32xNEO's and 737Max's of this world due to much lower fuel and maintanance costs.

Like Lightsaber mentions, the props are the main target with the regionals being an close second.
 
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Lingon
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:01 pm

JonesNL wrote:
We will probably never have an 737 sized battery powered vehicle....


OTH, there is a future possibility for hydrogen. Either combustion or fuel cells / electric motors. Not viable today or within short time, but I wouldn't rule it out.
 
pune
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:31 pm

JonesNL wrote:

When the electric variant of an training plane costs $3 dollar an hour in fuel compared to $50 an hour for the old variant(see video on spot 15) the electric one will prevail even when it has more constraints.

People are to much focused on an one on one comparison for Battery powered vs Jet fuel powered. We will probably never have an 737 sized battery powered vehicle, but I believe there will be an huge 50 seater sub 500 miles market for electric planes with CASM that can compete with the A32xNEO's and 737Max's of this world due to much lower fuel and maintanance costs.

Like Lightsaber mentions, the props are the main target with the regionals being an close second.


I agree. I saw another video today of another potential electric aircraft being made by a swedish start-up called heart airspace. Apparently a 2-seater trainer aircraft was recently certified although their goal is to get their 19-seater aircraft certified by 2025. As shared in the video, they are looking at regionals, although in Norway and Sweden. There is of course lot of excitement being generated by the leaked of a bigger size and more dense battery, if that is what gets announced on battery day 22nd September. That would have implications on car prices, manufacturing process as perhaps also aircraft . You can see the whole video at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBNIAxZ8MuE

The alleged battery leak has been explained in this video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZzLzFP5Zg
 
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Aesma
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:12 pm

WPIAeroGuy wrote:
I can't wait for the day when electric aircraft are the norm. However, this just seems like a PR stunt. A radical new configuration is not going to be what makes electric aircraft viable. When battery energy density reaches a point where it can compete 1:1 with fossil fuels then we will see aircraft in much the same configurations we see today but with electric motors and batteries in the wings. I would much rather see the R&D dollars be spent towards the battery technology - once the technology is mature enough manufacturers will be falling over themselves to incorporate into existing planforms. Of course that isn't as sexy as pictures of V-tails and distributed propulsion, but to me this is like polishing the surface of your pinewood derby car to minimize aerodynamic drag, while the real issue is you're using square wheels.


I disagree entirely. 1:1 is not happening anytime soon, yet we will have electric aircraft long before that. In fact we have electric aircraft today.

Electric energy will be at a premium in an electric commuter/airliner, and as a result everything will be thrown at aerodynamic efficiency, weight reduction, etc. It's very likely they will look different from a 737. Another thing to consider is potential ATC gains (for example an electric aircraft could be given priority airspace).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
afgeneral
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Re: EasyJet Electric Aircraft: Engine Test by 2023, Aircraft in Service 2030

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:42 pm

reminds me of a project called Mars One

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