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Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:59 pm

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
NonTechAvLover wrote:

Repeat after me: “Nobody, except for a.netters and a few active pilots, knows the kind of plane they are flying. And, even if they knew, all the flying public cares about is the price of the ticket, not the kind of plane they are flying on. “

Take a deep breath and repeat again. Look, after a few repetitions, you will either be convinced that the MAX has no issues whatsoever upon RtS or you will be hyperventilating. Isn’t the first preferable?

Besides the condescending tone of your comment, you might forget we are in 2020 and every single mention of the 737 MAX in the media (and spread like wildfire by the so-called "social media") reminds the reader of the checkered past of the plane. People might not be able to identify what a 737 MAX really is, but they (at least the worrying types) will surely ask the gate agent what plane it is; and, if the plane agent (who acts on behalf of the airline, even if not an airline employee) lies to the passengers, this is have a snowballing effect with litigation and all.
If there was absolutely no issue with the name "737 MAX", why did Ryanair had their 737 MAX 200 repainted "737-8200"??? Only one reason: to hide from the public that the plane is a 737 MAX.

To quote your own comment: repeat after me, "do not underestimate the irrational fear of the flying public".


They will rebrand, the public will soon forget, the world will move on.


Just like the Hindenburg you mean? We are all flying zeppelins these days, right?
 
morrisond
Posts: 2791
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:13 pm

astuteman wrote:
morrisond wrote:
scbriml wrote:

You seem to have doubled your estimate of the drug-like rush to buy MAXes once they can fly again. If you're going to throw out numbers like that, you really need to provide a timeframe over which these orders will be placed.


I would assume these would be negotiated before RTS or slightly thereafter as part of the grounding compensation by the end of 2020.

IAG has already conditionally ordered 200

Ryanair could take 200-300 easily (they would need to order at least 375 to be all MAX with Future fleet growth 585-210) https://corporate.ryanair.com/ryanair-fleet/

Southwest stills needs to order 500 to replace 737-700 and they will need growth frames as well.

It's not that hard to get to pretty big numbers pretty quickly with just a few customers.

A lot may be unidentified before the public losses the fear of flying on the MAX - but the order book for the 2020's could be pretty full soon - assuming successful RTS.


It's not that hard to get to pretty big numbers pretty quickly with just a few customers.
But you do have to take the top end bullish view of MAX orders and the bottom end bearish view of A320NEO orders to get remotely close to the "backlogs being close by the end of the year".
Not to mention incremental exaggeration every time the numbers are processed.
Airbus have secured an average of 800 orders per year over 9 years, and already have 100 x A320NEO family orders in the first month.

I do think the narrowbody market is beginning to soften as the widebody one has already done, so wouldn't necessarily expect 800 Airbus orders this year. But that softening will affect the MAX just the same as the NEO.

I'm quite comfortable with your assumptions of potential order numbers from FR, IAG and WN.
I'm a lot less convinced that they will all happen at short notice - WN have been "buying 500 MAX" since it was launched in 2011
There is also a sub-set of the NEO market that the 737-10 is never going to touch - the LR/XLR market

And I still think there will be a bevy of airlines out there not as robust as FR, IAG or WN that will take an opportunity to cancel or convert as their market softens.

It's equally easy to get to considerably smaller numbers, and a much larger backlog gap to the NEO, pretty quickly.
It is going to be interesting to watch.

Rgds


What incremental exaggeration? I might have said lower numbers before but I think have always been 1,000+. I didn't want to say a too big number out loud until I saw what form the grounding compensation would take.

Sure it is possible to get to much smaller numbers -and Airbus might sell enough to replace deliveries this year. However I think they might have brought some orders forward last year - I don't think anyone was expecting them to sell 800 in 2019.

If they really want to keep the pressure on they should offer the A322 very soonish - that could cause some big Boeing Customers to pause.

Boeing could sell none and still be at 4,100.

That is why I said Boeing "might" get close. A lot of things have to line-up but it's not inconceivable. From the earnings releases it's sounding like the comp for there big customers will be most advantageously used for new orders which many of us were expecting (the method of compensation).
 
astuteman
Posts: 7158
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:33 pm

morrisond wrote:
Sure it is possible to get to much smaller numbers -and Airbus might sell enough to replace deliveries this year. However I think they might have brought some orders forward last year - I don't think anyone was expecting them to sell 800 in 2019.


It's pretty clear that the XLR launch drove 450 incremental A321 sales.
I expect them to sell a fair few more XLR's this year, especially with NMA being re-considered.
For what its worth I would consider 800 NEO's this year to exceed my expectations.
500-600 would be my guess

morrisond wrote:
Boeing could sell none and still be at 4,100.


Including ASC606 cancellations, current backlog is 4,350.
I think deliveries will exceed 250 this year.
I also think we haven't seen the last of the cancellations/conversions.
But to avoid looking like I'm aiming for worst case, I expect to see some pretty big orders from those airlines you mention coming in, plus some more you haven't mentioned.
Because I think a lot of haggling will be involved, I don't think they'll come in as quickly as you might hope.
But they will come.

morrisond wrote:
That is why I said Boeing "might" get close. A lot of things have to line-up but it's not inconceivable. From the earnings releases it's sounding like the comp for there big customers will be most advantageously used for new orders which many of us were expecting (the method of compensation).


I agree. We've seen this lots of times in the past.

Rgds
 
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767333ER
Posts: 1170
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:50 pm

PennPal wrote:
I would think that with all the scrutiny the MAX will be one of the safest planes in the air. I'll have no problem flying on one...

Yeah that’s not how risk and safety works reality
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
Kikko19
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:01 pm

morrisond wrote:
astuteman wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I would assume these would be negotiated before RTS or slightly thereafter as part of the grounding compensation by the end of 2020.

IAG has already conditionally ordered 200

Ryanair could take 200-300 easily (they would need to order at least 375 to be all MAX with Future fleet growth 585-210) https://corporate.ryanair.com/ryanair-fleet/

Southwest stills needs to order 500 to replace 737-700 and they will need growth frames as well.

It's not that hard to get to pretty big numbers pretty quickly with just a few customers.

A lot may be unidentified before the public losses the fear of flying on the MAX - but the order book for the 2020's could be pretty full soon - assuming successful RTS.


It's not that hard to get to pretty big numbers pretty quickly with just a few customers.
But you do have to take the top end bullish view of MAX orders and the bottom end bearish view of A320NEO orders to get remotely close to the "backlogs being close by the end of the year".
Not to mention incremental exaggeration every time the numbers are processed.
Airbus have secured an average of 800 orders per year over 9 years, and already have 100 x A320NEO family orders in the first month.

I do think the narrowbody market is beginning to soften as the widebody one has already done, so wouldn't necessarily expect 800 Airbus orders this year. But that softening will affect the MAX just the same as the NEO.

I'm quite comfortable with your assumptions of potential order numbers from FR, IAG and WN.
I'm a lot less convinced that they will all happen at short notice - WN have been "buying 500 MAX" since it was launched in 2011
There is also a sub-set of the NEO market that the 737-10 is never going to touch - the LR/XLR market

And I still think there will be a bevy of airlines out there not as robust as FR, IAG or WN that will take an opportunity to cancel or convert as their market softens.

It's equally easy to get to considerably smaller numbers, and a much larger backlog gap to the NEO, pretty quickly.
It is going to be interesting to watch.

Rgds


What incremental exaggeration? I might have said lower numbers before but I think have always been 1,000+. I didn't want to say a too big number out loud until I saw what form the grounding compensation would take.

Sure it is possible to get to much smaller numbers -and Airbus might sell enough to replace deliveries this year. However I think they might have brought some orders forward last year - I don't think anyone was expecting them to sell 800 in 2019.

If they really want to keep the pressure on they should offer the A322 very soonish - that could cause some big Boeing Customers to pause.

Boeing could sell none and still be at 4,100.

That is why I said Boeing "might" get close. A lot of things have to line-up but it's not inconceivable. From the earnings releases it's sounding like the comp for there big customers will be most advantageously used for new orders which many of us were expecting (the method of compensation).


A should develop a rewinged a32x and start producing the a225 soon. that should keep the momentum of advantage over the b73x max
of course after the coronavirus is under control othewise noone will ever fly for a looong time
 
JonesNL
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:16 pm

StTim wrote:
seahawk wrote:
morrisond wrote:
This could be the start of the 1,500 -2,000 MAX's added to the backlog after RTS.

Say Ryanair takes 200-300, Plus the 200 for IAG, plus Southwest still needs to order another 500 to replace 737-700 - you get to 1,000 pretty quick.


On the day of the RTS Boeing will surely announce new orders by the hundreds.


They may but my view is it is a very brave airline that will buy the MAX at this point. The plus point is they will get firesale prices to do so. The gamble is how long the flying public will not fly on the MAX. All it needs is a reasonable proportion to actively seek alternative options and it will hit those airlines flying the MAX very hard.

5% is all it takes to kill the profits. Ryanair had a profit of 88 million an a revenue of 1,4 billion. The margin are to tight to lose 5%.
 
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zeke
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:23 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
No, Ryanair still has leverage. They can sue the crap out of Boeing for all the delays and lost revenue. Or they can reprice.

Boeing set aside a lot of cash to throw at airlines but it's not nearly enough. They're gonna pay the rest in discounts

(I sound confident in this post but just like most people on this site, I could be completely wrong)


I disagree.

Boeing has the cards, they could just cancel the order they have to get rid of the liability. That would improve the delivery times to other customers.

As everyone knows there is nothing else out there in the quantity they need in the time frame required, so they would be forced back to Boeing. They would then go to the bottom of the list, if then they want improved delivery schedule, show Boeing the cash.

I see no need for Boeing to pander to them at all.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
marcogr12
Posts: 459
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:30 pm

Well, one step at a time..Let's get that plane up in the air first,without crashing, and then we'll when and which airlines will rush to get it by that time..Assuming of course this year finally it flies again...As for the pax, even if the majority of the them can't between a Boeing and an Airbus,i am sure the press will have a field reminding the public that x company is flying THAT 737MAX..I really don't know if passengers will soon forget they will have to fly a MAX as soon as they see a FR 9.99 offer..
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:32 pm

zeke wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
No, Ryanair still has leverage. They can sue the crap out of Boeing for all the delays and lost revenue. Or they can reprice.

Boeing set aside a lot of cash to throw at airlines but it's not nearly enough. They're gonna pay the rest in discounts

(I sound confident in this post but just like most people on this site, I could be completely wrong)


I disagree.

Boeing has the cards, they could just cancel the order they have to get rid of the liability. That would improve the delivery times to other customers.

As everyone knows there is nothing else out there in the quantity they need in the time frame required, so they would be forced back to Boeing. They would then go to the bottom of the list, if then they want improved delivery schedule, show Boeing the cash.

I see no need for Boeing to pander to them at all.

Should Boeing decide to cancel the Ryanair order; it'd be a Breach of Contract. At this point, Ryanair would sue Boeing and take them to the cleaners...
Bad position for Ryanair, even worse for Boeing as other customers would see this as a precedent and demand even more guarantees/discount when signing.
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:37 pm

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
NonTechAvLover wrote:

Repeat after me: “Nobody, except for a.netters and a few active pilots, knows the kind of plane they are flying. And, even if they knew, all the flying public cares about is the price of the ticket, not the kind of plane they are flying on. “

Take a deep breath and repeat again. Look, after a few repetitions, you will either be convinced that the MAX has no issues whatsoever upon RtS or you will be hyperventilating. Isn’t the first preferable?

Besides the condescending tone of your comment, you might forget we are in 2020 and every single mention of the 737 MAX in the media (and spread like wildfire by the so-called "social media") reminds the reader of the checkered past of the plane. People might not be able to identify what a 737 MAX really is, but they (at least the worrying types) will surely ask the gate agent what plane it is; and, if the plane agent (who acts on behalf of the airline, even if not an airline employee) lies to the passengers, this is have a snowballing effect with litigation and all.
If there was absolutely no issue with the name "737 MAX", why did Ryanair had their 737 MAX 200 repainted "737-8200"??? Only one reason: to hide from the public that the plane is a 737 MAX.

To quote your own comment: repeat after me, "do not underestimate the irrational fear of the flying public".


They will rebrand, the public will soon forget, the world will move on.

People in 2020 still love to resurrect the Pinto name when discussing about Ford... The Pinto fiasco was 45 years ago (1974-1975)...
I'm not 100% convinced people will forget that soon.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2791
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm

astuteman wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Sure it is possible to get to much smaller numbers -and Airbus might sell enough to replace deliveries this year. However I think they might have brought some orders forward last year - I don't think anyone was expecting them to sell 800 in 2019.


It's pretty clear that the XLR launch drove 450 incremental A321 sales.
I expect them to sell a fair few more XLR's this year, especially with NMA being re-considered.
For what its worth I would consider 800 NEO's this year to exceed my expectations.
500-600 would be my guess

morrisond wrote:
Boeing could sell none and still be at 4,100.


Including ASC606 cancellations, current backlog is 4,350.
I think deliveries will exceed 250 this year.
I also think we haven't seen the last of the cancellations/conversions.
But to avoid looking like I'm aiming for worst case, I expect to see some pretty big orders from those airlines you mention coming in, plus some more you haven't mentioned.
Because I think a lot of haggling will be involved, I don't think they'll come in as quickly as you might hope.
But they will come.

morrisond wrote:
That is why I said Boeing "might" get close. A lot of things have to line-up but it's not inconceivable. From the earnings releases it's sounding like the comp for there big customers will be most advantageously used for new orders which many of us were expecting (the method of compensation).


I agree. We've seen this lots of times in the past.

Rgds


This all makes sense. I'm not really hoping for orders - more like forecasting them. I don't really care if they get them. The MAX doesn't really excite me and I don't think they ever should have built it.

Perversely I kind of hope for not that many orders so they move forward with NMA/NSA sooner rather than later.

If Boeing does get an easy 1,000 plus orders at RTS they may not be that keen or have to be that keen to sell another 1,000 at big discounts. It's not like Airbus is going to discount big time to get more A320/321 sales - they don't need too and there is no viable alternative to 320/737 yet.

So they could put a limited time frame on Airlines wishing to place RTS Launch orders.

Yes I expect Airbus to sell more XLR as well and really think they should move forward with A322 and possible rewing ASAP to keep the pressure on.
 
TObound
Posts: 783
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:46 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
max999 wrote:
qf789 wrote:

Currently Ryanair has 210 737MAX on order. They also plan to reprice the existing order.


Very ballsy of Ryanair to try to reprice their existing 737 order. I guess Boeing is in such a weak position right now that customers can take advantage of the situation. Under normal circumstances, I don't think any airline would try something like that.


Is it? What's that backlog of AB's looking like these days? I suppose it would dependant on how long are they willing to wait for frames and why should AB slash their prices in a tight market. It makes for great investment print fodder.


After this Max debacle, my rough math based on the ramp that Leeham showed in their article says that Boeing still has 1-1.5 years of backlog advantage over Airbus.
 
A3801000
Posts: 562
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:50 pm

TObound wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
max999 wrote:

Very ballsy of Ryanair to try to reprice their existing 737 order. I guess Boeing is in such a weak position right now that customers can take advantage of the situation. Under normal circumstances, I don't think any airline would try something like that.


Is it? What's that backlog of AB's looking like these days? I suppose it would dependant on how long are they willing to wait for frames and why should AB slash their prices in a tight market. It makes for great investment print fodder.


After this Max debacle, my rough math based on the ramp that Leeham showed in their article says that Boeing still has 1-1.5 years of backlog advantage over Airbus.


Considering the current B737MAX delivery rate you are probably right.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:04 pm

tphuang wrote:
Very smart of Mr O'Leary


Smart??? In my opinion, he is a damned exploiter, both of his employees and now of Boeing. I wouldn't give him a single cent off! He already puts enough money in his own pockets and can hardly walk! He knows that he has no chance of getting Airbuses earlier instead of the Boeings he ordered. And Boeing knows it too! So why should they accommodate him? He is a safe customer.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2543
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:08 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Besides the condescending tone of your comment, you might forget we are in 2020 and every single mention of the 737 MAX in the media (and spread like wildfire by the so-called "social media") reminds the reader of the checkered past of the plane. People might not be able to identify what a 737 MAX really is, but they (at least the worrying types) will surely ask the gate agent what plane it is; and, if the plane agent (who acts on behalf of the airline, even if not an airline employee) lies to the passengers, this is have a snowballing effect with litigation and all.
If there was absolutely no issue with the name "737 MAX", why did Ryanair had their 737 MAX 200 repainted "737-8200"??? Only one reason: to hide from the public that the plane is a 737 MAX.

To quote your own comment: repeat after me, "do not underestimate the irrational fear of the flying public".


They will rebrand, the public will soon forget, the world will move on.

People in 2020 still love to resurrect the Pinto name when discussing about Ford... The Pinto fiasco was 45 years ago (1974-1975)...
I'm not 100% convinced people will forget that soon.


As a historical reference. Ford still sold millions of vehicles and is top 5 (or so) in the world in terms of automobile manufacturers. So while the incident and car is remembered, it isn't like people actively are avoiding Ford cars.

The MAX will have ramifications, but over time it will fade and be a discussion topic, vs a active behavior modifier.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Antarius
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:10 pm

AirbusOnly wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Very smart of Mr O'Leary


Smart??? In my opinion, he is a damned exploiter, both of his employees and now of Boeing. I wouldn't give him a single cent off! He already puts enough money in his own pockets and can hardly walk! He knows that he has no chance of getting Airbuses earlier instead of the Boeings he ordered. And Boeing knows it too! So why should they accommodate him? He is a safe customer.


Complacency is what got Boeing into the mess they are in. I don't think countering that with more complacency is wise.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:10 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Should Boeing decide to cancel the Ryanair order; it'd be a Breach of Contract. At this point, Ryanair would sue Boeing and take them to the cleaners...
Bad position for Ryanair, even worse for Boeing as other customers would see this as a precedent and demand even more guarantees/discount when signing.


I don’t agree, the standard contract language Boeing seems to use would indicate that suspending the production line is an agreed termination event trigger. From the COPA 737Max contact on sec.gov https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... v10w21.txt

“ Article 10. Termination of Purchase Agreements for Certain Events.

10.1 Termination. If either party

(i) ceases doing business as a going concern, or suspends all or
substantially all its business operations, or makes an assignment
for the benefit of creditors, or generally does not pay its debts
as they become due, or admits in writing its inability to pay its
debts; or

(ii) petitions for or acquiesces in the appointment of any
receiver, trustee or similar officer to liquidate or conserve its
business or any substantial part of its assets; commences any
legal proceeding such as bankruptcy, reorganization, readjustment
of debt, dissolution, or liquidation available for the relief of
financially distressed debtors; or becomes the object of any such
proceeding, unless the proceeding is dismissed or stayed within a
reasonable period, not to exceed 60 days,

the other party may terminate any purchase agreement with respect to any
undelivered aircraft, Materials, training, services, and other things by giving
written notice of termination.

10.2 Repayment of Advance Payments. If Customer terminates the
applicable purchase agreement under this Article, Boeing will repay to Customer,
without interest, an amount equal to any advance payments received by Boeing
from Customer with respect to undelivered aircraft.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:23 pm

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:

They will rebrand, the public will soon forget, the world will move on.

People in 2020 still love to resurrect the Pinto name when discussing about Ford... The Pinto fiasco was 45 years ago (1974-1975)...
I'm not 100% convinced people will forget that soon.


As a historical reference. Ford still sold millions of vehicles and is top 5 (or so) in the world in terms of automobile manufacturers. So while the incident and car is remembered, it isn't like people actively are avoiding Ford cars.

The MAX will have ramifications, but over time it will fade and be a discussion topic, vs a active behavior modifier.

Over time, yes; in the short term (you and I both mentioned "soon"), I doubt.
How long will people remember? That's the biggest question.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:31 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Should Boeing decide to cancel the Ryanair order; it'd be a Breach of Contract. At this point, Ryanair would sue Boeing and take them to the cleaners...
Bad position for Ryanair, even worse for Boeing as other customers would see this as a precedent and demand even more guarantees/discount when signing.


I don’t agree, the standard contract language Boeing seems to use would indicate that suspending the production line is an agreed termination event trigger. From the COPA 737Max contact on sec.gov https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... v10w21.txt

“ Article 10. Termination of Purchase Agreements for Certain Events.

10.1 Termination. If either party

(i) ceases doing business as a going concern, or suspends all or
substantially all its business operations, or makes an assignment
for the benefit of creditors, or generally does not pay its debts
as they become due, or admits in writing its inability to pay its
debts; or

(ii) petitions for or acquiesces in the appointment of any
receiver, trustee or similar officer to liquidate or conserve its
business or any substantial part of its assets; commences any
legal proceeding such as bankruptcy, reorganization, readjustment
of debt, dissolution, or liquidation available for the relief of
financially distressed debtors; or becomes the object of any such
proceeding, unless the proceeding is dismissed or stayed within a
reasonable period, not to exceed 60 days,

the other party may terminate any purchase agreement with respect to any
undelivered aircraft, Materials, training, services, and other things by giving
written notice of termination.

10.2 Repayment of Advance Payments. If Customer terminates the
applicable purchase agreement under this Article, Boeing will repay to Customer,
without interest, an amount equal to any advance payments received by Boeing
from Customer with respect to undelivered aircraft.”

Well, if we extract what’s relevant to here and remove the rest (which does not contradict what’s kept, but merely adds additional conditions):
If either party […] suspends all or substantially all its business operations […] the other party may terminate any purchase agreement with respect to any undelivered aircraft, Materials, training, services, and other things by giving written notice of termination.

This allows Ryanair to nullify the remainder of the contract if Boeing suspends Production of the 737 MAX; it does not, however, allow Boeing to unilaterally nullify the remainder of the contract (or in this case, the whole contract since Ryanair has yet to receive a single 737 MAX).

Thanks for the quote though.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:35 pm

then it is clearly well played by MOL, might even set a precedent for other pending max orders.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Antarius
Posts: 2543
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:39 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
People in 2020 still love to resurrect the Pinto name when discussing about Ford... The Pinto fiasco was 45 years ago (1974-1975)...
I'm not 100% convinced people will forget that soon.


As a historical reference. Ford still sold millions of vehicles and is top 5 (or so) in the world in terms of automobile manufacturers. So while the incident and car is remembered, it isn't like people actively are avoiding Ford cars.

The MAX will have ramifications, but over time it will fade and be a discussion topic, vs a active behavior modifier.

Over time, yes; in the short term (you and I both mentioned "soon"), I doubt.
How long will people remember? That's the biggest question.


Fair enough. Many airlines have indicated that they will allow people to switch for free, which will help those that are nervous.

One year without incidents, and I think the number actively avoiding the MAX will drop to a rounding error. That said, just my opinion.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
smartplane
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:40 pm

OEM discounts are the public side of commercial aircraft pricing. The undisclosed are retrospective credits, which accrue long after the first aircraft is delivered, increasing with each delivery, but only 'firm' when the customer decides how they are used.

For compensation, OEM's increase retrospective credits, including on already delivered aircraft, with a capped cash conversion limit, either expressed as a dollar value, or more commonly, as a percentage of the total credit value.

Where the compensation numbers are unusually large, as in this example, the OEM will introduce a second, additional retrospective credit formula, to create very specific behaviour, namely to not cancel existing order/s, and encourage additional 'confidence' purchases.

However attractive the pricing, no airline, even SW, is likely to maintain the 'all eggs in one basket', especially if some MAX remedial work flows backwards to earlier 737 models.

Passenger confidence shouldn't be an issue, especially if RTS is uneventful, providing all issues identified by the airworthiness authorities are actioned as a condition of RTS.

But if, as appears likely, RTS is accompanied by a shopping list of must do's before RTS, plus multiple AD's with varying completion times to be actioned post-RTS, the latter will be seized upon by social media and the media. The insurance industry will impose financial incentives of the negative kind to encourage AD's are actioned quickly, perhaps of the magnitude customers will voluntarily delay RTS until actioned.

Will Boeing and airlines encourage 'conservative' operations after RTS, so possibly more flight cancellations when relatively minor defects are detected?
 
NonTechAvLover
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:45 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Should Boeing decide to cancel the Ryanair order; it'd be a Breach of Contract. At this point, Ryanair would sue Boeing and take them to the cleaners...
Bad position for Ryanair, even worse for Boeing as other customers would see this as a precedent and demand even more guarantees/discount when signing.


I don’t agree, the standard contract language Boeing seems to use would indicate that suspending the production line is an agreed termination event trigger. From the COPA 737Max contact on sec.gov https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... v10w21.txt

“ Article 10. Termination of Purchase Agreements for Certain Events.

10.1 Termination. If either party

(i) ceases doing business as a going concern, or suspends all or
substantially all its business operations, or makes an assignment
for the benefit of creditors, or generally does not pay its debts
as they become due, or admits in writing its inability to pay its
debts; or

(ii) petitions for or acquiesces in the appointment of any
receiver, trustee or similar officer to liquidate or conserve its
business or any substantial part of its assets; commences any
legal proceeding such as bankruptcy, reorganization, readjustment
of debt, dissolution, or liquidation available for the relief of
financially distressed debtors; or becomes the object of any such
proceeding, unless the proceeding is dismissed or stayed within a
reasonable period, not to exceed 60 days,

the other party may terminate any purchase agreement with respect to any
undelivered aircraft, Materials, training, services, and other things by giving
written notice of termination.

10.2 Repayment of Advance Payments. If Customer terminates the
applicable purchase agreement under this Article, Boeing will repay to Customer,
without interest, an amount equal to any advance payments received by Boeing
from Customer with respect to undelivered aircraft.”


10.1 (i) and (ii) are typical termination events that allow the counter-party (Copa, RyanAir) to terminate the contract, not Boeing. More importantly, suspending 737MAX production does not put Boeing in either of these situations, as both articles apply to the company as a whole. The purpose of these articles is to protect the business partners of an entity in or near bankruptcy by allowing the healthy party to terminate contracts without liability, rather than forcing them to continue doing business with a party that may not be able to meet its obligations.

These are very serious provisions and do not come into effect often, except for those who practice bankruptcy law or in related fields, who see them take effect all the time. Boeing is nowhere near those and any cancellation of a firm order would have to be a breach of its obligations. Now, calculation of damages for that breach would be a most interesting discussion.
Last edited by NonTechAvLover on Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
9Patch
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
People in 2020 still love to resurrect the Pinto name when discussing about Ford... The Pinto fiasco was 45 years ago (1974-1975)...
I'm not 100% convinced people will forget that soon.

But that doesn't keep them from buying or riding in Fords.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24655
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:54 pm

JonesNL wrote:
5% is all it takes to kill the profits. Ryanair had a profit of 88 million an a revenue of 1,4 billion. The margin are to tight to lose 5%.

How much of a hit does his profits take if he continues to fly NGs longer than he planned on, and pay for heavy airframe and engine checks he didn't plan on?

FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/rya ... 04.article ) reports:

Despite these difficulties, if you “look through the noise” the Max remains “a great aircraft”, argues O’Leary, noting that it provide the airline with 4% more seats than its Boeing 737NGs and a 16% fuel saving.

Plenty of head room to cover for the few nervous fliers IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
smartplane
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:02 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Should Boeing decide to cancel the Ryanair order; it'd be a Breach of Contract. At this point, Ryanair would sue Boeing and take them to the cleaners...
Bad position for Ryanair, even worse for Boeing as other customers would see this as a precedent and demand even more guarantees/discount when signing.


I don’t agree, the standard contract language Boeing seems to use would indicate that suspending the production line is an agreed termination event trigger. From the COPA 737Max contact on sec.gov https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... v10w21.txt

“ Article 10. Termination of Purchase Agreements for Certain Events.

10.1 Termination. If either party

(i) ceases doing business as a going concern, or suspends all or
substantially all its business operations, or makes an assignment
for the benefit of creditors, or generally does not pay its debts
as they become due, or admits in writing its inability to pay its
debts; or

(ii) petitions for or acquiesces in the appointment of any
receiver, trustee or similar officer to liquidate or conserve its
business or any substantial part of its assets; commences any
legal proceeding such as bankruptcy, reorganization, readjustment
of debt, dissolution, or liquidation available for the relief of
financially distressed debtors; or becomes the object of any such
proceeding, unless the proceeding is dismissed or stayed within a
reasonable period, not to exceed 60 days,

the other party may terminate any purchase agreement with respect to any
undelivered aircraft, Materials, training, services, and other things by giving
written notice of termination.

10.2 Repayment of Advance Payments. If Customer terminates the
applicable purchase agreement under this Article, Boeing will repay to Customer,
without interest, an amount equal to any advance payments received by Boeing
from Customer with respect to undelivered aircraft.”

The term 'order' is being defined rather generously up thread, and in previous volume acquisitions.

There is no way the Boeing Board would permit unconditional orders to be negotiated at present, neither would buyers Board's or their financiers.

In respect to the contract terms highlighted by Zeke, Boeing and Airbus use IAG's template for sales to IAG. Not so sure about Ryanair, as often very sharply priced volume sales use the OEM's template (part of the quid pro quo for the price).

Doubt any OEM or customer buy / sell contract envisaged a situation where a model has been undeliverable due to airworthiness authority intervention for this period of time.

At best these 'orders' are conditional, but probably with so many conditions, with high levels of unknowns outside the control of buyer and seller, err more towards the LOI / MoU end of the spectrum.
 
NonTechAvLover
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:09 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:02 pm

By the way Zeke, since you seem to have the AC purchase agreement of at least one airline handy, can you check if there is a section titled "force majeure" and post that one if there is. That may be the more interesting provision in this context. And any thoughts from the lawyers and the likes as to whether a typical force majeure provision would apply in the event of a grounding. I am not saying Boeing can declare force majeure or that it would even want to, but I am just curious.

Thanks,
 
AIRT0M
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:54 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:02 pm

9Patch wrote:
But that doesn't keep them from buying or riding in Fords.


Not Ford. But Ford Pinto. That's why they axed it.

And nobody will stop buying or flying Boeing if they axe the Max..
 
Rossiya747
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:56 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:13 pm

maybe Ryanair will one-up themselves and make a 737 MAX 300/ 737-10300 with the MAX 10
223 319 320 321 332 333 346 388 734 737 738 739 38M 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 77W 788 789 208 CRJ2 E145 E190 UA DL AA WN AC CM 4O AV 2K FI DY D8 SK LH EI FR U2 IB OS LX BA VS BT PS MS SA SW QR EY HY AI 9W TG SQ MH AK D7 QZ BR NH CA QF MI LV/IB VY AL
 
Galwayman
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:24 pm

oschkosch wrote:
then it is clearly well played by MOL, might even set a precedent for other pending max orders.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


Everyone who works for Boeing should be lining up to kiss MOL’s ass and beg for forgiveness
 
Carlitos471
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:21 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:29 pm

“Nobody, except for a.netters and a few active pilots, knows the kind of plane they are flying. “

Even if this were true a.netters and pilots have families and friends and their families have friends and so on ...
I'm always asked for advice when friends and relatives are buying airline tickets...
I fly Ryanair 6 to 8 times a year when/if they start getting the MAX i'll have to look for other alternatives as I value my life more than a few euros.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:30 pm

When I said that the 737MAX-10 was a chick!

Good news for Boeing, the 737MAX program industrial partners, technicians and employees

The CEO Calhoun knew that the 737MAX is still on the market for a generation.

Well done!

Image
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24655
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:10 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
When I said that the 737MAX-10 was a chick!

Good news for Boeing, the 737MAX program industrial partners, technicians and employees

The CEO Calhoun knew that the 737MAX is still on the market for a generation.

Well done!

Actually we have a photo of the -10 in the a.net database:



And there's some nice renders of the -10 out there:

Image

Image
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
THS214
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:58 am

spinotter wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Time will tell if this ballsy or foolish. Never thought it would drag on this long, if there is not concrete information coming soon you have to wonder what other shoe is dropping in the background.


I wonder if the FAA etc. are still not satisfied with Boeing's current solution - and why isn't Boeing communicating better?


Spinotter good question. Maybe they don't communicate because they don't know what to communicate at this moment.
 
JayBCN
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:09 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:59 am

Revelation wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
5% is all it takes to kill the profits. Ryanair had a profit of 88 million an a revenue of 1,4 billion. The margin are to tight to lose 5%.

How much of a hit does his profits take if he continues to fly NGs longer than he planned on, and pay for heavy airframe and engine checks he didn't plan on?

FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/rya ... 04.article ) reports:

Despite these difficulties, if you “look through the noise” the Max remains “a great aircraft”, argues O’Leary, noting that it provide the airline with 4% more seats than its Boeing 737NGs and a 16% fuel saving.

Plenty of head room to cover for the few nervous fliers IMO.


Just one accident involving a MAX and there is no more head nor room.
Last edited by JayBCN on Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JayBCN
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:09 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:02 am

AIRT0M wrote:
9Patch wrote:
But that doesn't keep them from buying or riding in Fords.


Not Ford. But Ford Pinto. That's why they axed it.

And nobody will stop buying or flying Boeing if they axe the Max..


You are very right. Just one thing to add: one more 737 MAX crash and Boeing in its entirety is at risk. And THAT is the name of this game.
 
744SPX
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:04 am

O'Leary's comment "Ryanair expects to be at the head of the queue" (for new 737 Max purchases) had me cracking up.

I don't doubt Ryanair will be at the head, but it will also be at the rear...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:27 am

JayBCN wrote:
The buyer making an offer ... is that really how it’s done ?

I believe MOL is getting this one wrong. Passengers are really concerned and really aware - and that includes the average person. Overheard this conversation in my holiday flight from CGN to LPA on Corendon flight XR 1304 on 1.1.2020 (Corendon has ordered the MAX): „honey, don’t worry this [737-800] is not one of the bad ones.“

Just another incident - related or not to the original issue - once the MAX is flying again and all airlines which fly even only a few MAXes are in deep trouble.


Oh please. My aunt flys almost every week of the year and if I asked her how she enjoyed her flight on the new Canadair A757 she would say it was great. The general public has no idea what they're flying on.
 
THS214
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:28 am

NonTechAvLover wrote:
By the way Zeke, since you seem to have the AC purchase agreement of at least one airline handy, can you check if there is a section titled "force majeure" and post that one if there is. That may be the more interesting provision in this context. And any thoughts from the lawyers and the likes as to whether a typical force majeure provision would apply in the event of a grounding. I am not saying Boeing can declare force majeure or that it would even want to, but I am just curious.

Thanks,


MCAS was fully something Boeing knew and proceeded. Therefore no force majeure in this case. Simply Boeing's business decision.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:33 am

spinotter wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Time will tell if this ballsy or foolish. Never thought it would drag on this long, if there is not concrete information coming soon you have to wonder what other shoe is dropping in the background.


I wonder if the FAA etc. are still not satisfied with Boeing's current solution - and why isn't Boeing communicating better?


Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:34 am

FluidFlow wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

When the buyer has all the cards, why not?


The buyer doesn't have all the cards. Ryanair couldn't get 100 321Neos or A220s before 2025 now matter how much they begged. Who was the analyst a few weeks ago quoted as remarking the MAX is all there is?


You are right in the sense, that with begging they will not get A321Neos but with paying enough cash I bet Airbus could play a bit with the order book and defer a few orders down the road. As an example: If Ryan air is willing to pay 5 million more than customer X for their order in 2023 Airbus will tell customer X that if they defer part of the the order to 2025 they will get a discount of 4 million.

Problem is, MOL will never pay more than necessary. He will also tell Boeing that he is more than willing to take second hand -800s and when the MAX is back in the air there will be a lot of them so Boeing will most probably strike a deal even if it favors Ryanair heavily and might hurt Boeing a lot. Still better than no order

Didn't Norweigian defer some of their A320neo/A321neo delivery? and some airlines which collapsed last year could have free up some slots. Are all those filled? Ryanair can lease from lessors though if they really need the A320/A321 capacity.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
User avatar
WashtubFields
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:40 am

marcogr12 wrote:
Well, one step at a time..Let's get that plane up in the air first,without crashing, and then we'll when and which airlines will rush to get it by that time..Assuming of course this year finally it flies again...As for the pax, even if the majority of the them can't between a Boeing and an Airbus,i am sure the press will have a field reminding the public that x company is flying THAT 737MAX..I really don't know if passengers will soon forget they will have to fly a MAX as soon as they see a FR 9.99 offer..


Are people also thinking of the flying public pre-internet days or at least in today's world. Back in the day if you missed a blurb in the paper you never knew, now we everything is everywhere all the time.

User story - Person sees headline on some site, then says I wonder what I am flying, checks online and says no way jose. That didn't exist in the world that never knew what plane they flew on.
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:52 am

Ryanair has capitalised on Boeing's woes before - its 100-frame NG order a few months after 9/11 when the market for new frames had tanked.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... eindustry1
 
JonesNL
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:56 am

Revelation wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
5% is all it takes to kill the profits. Ryanair had a profit of 88 million an a revenue of 1,4 billion. The margin are to tight to lose 5%.

How much of a hit does his profits take if he continues to fly NGs longer than he planned on, and pay for heavy airframe and engine checks he didn't plan on?

FG ( https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/rya ... 04.article ) reports:

Despite these difficulties, if you “look through the noise” the Max remains “a great aircraft”, argues O’Leary, noting that it provide the airline with 4% more seats than its Boeing 737NGs and a 16% fuel saving.

Plenty of head room to cover for the few nervous fliers IMO.

Depends on their average revenue per trip. 5% could be more than the savings created by the MAX. Don't think it will happen though, most people I speak to don't even know of they are flying a Boeing or an Airbus. The small portion, some pilots and flights crew, that knows are divided by a party that is confident and a party that will evade the MAX for a certain time periode. So, the impact will be felt for a maximum of a year. In which Ryanair doesn't have so many in their fleet any way. Like MOL Said, in the end it wont matter.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:49 am

WashtubFields wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
Well, one step at a time..Let's get that plane up in the air first,without crashing, and then we'll when and which airlines will rush to get it by that time..Assuming of course this year finally it flies again...As for the pax, even if the majority of the them can't between a Boeing and an Airbus,i am sure the press will have a field reminding the public that x company is flying THAT 737MAX..I really don't know if passengers will soon forget they will have to fly a MAX as soon as they see a FR 9.99 offer..


Are people also thinking of the flying public pre-internet days or at least in today's world. Back in the day if you missed a blurb in the paper you never knew, now we everything is everywhere all the time.

User story - Person sees headline on some site, then says I wonder what I am flying, checks online and says no way jose. That didn't exist in the world that never knew what plane they flew on.

It'll be interesting to see. People these days have more info but are just as lazy.

I wish we could do a poll where we all could vote on whether people gave two craps if they're flying on a MAX or not. I am pretty confident there won't be much of a change in the public's behavior, no matter how they may whine for 10 seconds, but others are just convinced there will be a big bias against the MAX. I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong but I just don't see it

I think Ryanair is making the same determination. I think most airlines are. Have we seen any actual cancelations of MAXs so far? Think I've heard of like one or two but not many. Even as someone that thinks the MAX will do just fine when it's back, I'm somewhat surprised more airlines haven't canceled
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:58 am

I would have waited another 2 months.
Let this whole Corona thing unfold and then take Boeing for a ride on the Ferris wheel.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:03 am

Checklist787 wrote:
When I said that the 737MAX-10 was a chick!

Good news for Boeing, the 737MAX program industrial partners, technicians and employees

The CEO Calhoun knew that the 737MAX is still on the market for a generation.

Well done!


Revelation wrote:
Actually we have a photo of the -10 in the a.net database:


Revelation wrote:


Lol!

By a little bit of fatigue, I am not even paying attention to the MAX-9 designation,
I am only observed the beauty of the new wing tips. [1]

I was also deceived by the length of the fuselage despite the angle of the shooting. [2] :biggrin:


[1] [2]
Image


Thanks for your sharing!
Last edited by Checklist787 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4154
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
JayBCN wrote:
Passengers are really concerned and really aware - and that includes the average person. Overheard this conversation in my holiday flight from CGN to LPA on Corendon flight XR 1304 on 1.1.2020 (Corendon has ordered the MAX): „honey, don’t worry this [737-800] is not one of the bad ones.“ .


Oh please. My aunt flys almost every week of the year and if I asked her how she enjoyed her flight on the new Canadair A757 she would say it was great. The general public has no idea what they're flying on.

This time it’s different, some examples:
(i) the travel agency in charge of flight bookings for my organization still sends e-mails saying „make sure that there will be no equipment change and you will fly a MAX“. They send such e-mails to thousands of travelers since months (... even though N14AZ wrote them an e-mail trying to explain them that these aircraft are stored worldwide and it’s impossible to fly on a max but they wouldn’t believe me :-/ ...)
(ii) a female colleague has a sticker on her table with „max“ written on it to verify all flight schedules she receives
(iii) my boss sending me an e-mail with the ending „and make sure you do not fly any Max“

The name Max is in everybody’s brain (except for my colleague... :‘)))))))) .....)

Regarding MOL‘s behavior: call me old fashioned but this is the kind of pressure that contributed to the disaster. Just my opinion...
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2525
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:29 am

People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today
 
WIederling
Posts: 9348
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:41 am

THS214 wrote:
Maybe they don't communicate because they don't know what to communicate at this moment.


game of chicken. You stare at the opponent, pedal on the floor and see the distance shrink, trees flying by in peripheral vision.
You don't "communicate" beyond that. :-)
Murphy is an optimist

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