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WIederling
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:41 am

THS214 wrote:
Maybe they don't communicate because they don't know what to communicate at this moment.


game of chicken. You stare at the opponent, pedal on the floor and see the distance shrink, trees flying by in peripheral vision.
You don't "communicate" beyond that. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kBecause anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Can you give us two examples of the FAA “throwing a fit”?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
boerje
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 am

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
kBecause anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Can you give us two examples of the FAA “throwing a fit”?


Or even one example of Boeing "doing the right thing".
 
Jomar777
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:41 am

Firstly, the flying public ARE interested (in its majority) on which aircraft they fly regardless of the price. Not only safety but also comfort, where to seat, easy of access, size of overhead bins, etc etc etc. We do like to know that the plane we fly on a determinated journey and this kind of matters. Just this last week, QR switched my flight from thier expected B77W to an A359 at the gate and my level of confort went from good to great just because I happened to have just the right seat allocated to me at check-in one day earlier (when the change was unplanned - apparently the B77W went tech in the morning of my flight to London - I do not know. It was QR001 from DOH to LHR for those that want to check...). I am sure others had similar luck (or misfortune). This simply due to the change of cabine.
Secondly, though once the MAX is properly certified and start flying - provided it does not crashes again soon and for some sort of technical reasons, people will fly on them. We would potentially have stopped flying the A330 after AF447 if this was not true (there was roughly quite at the same time another A330 that went down with Afriqiyah but - crucially - before clear reasons of the AF crash were known).. Plane just need to fly safe for a while and then people will feel OK flying on them.
As for MOL's statement, it is more than natural and probably expected - the main caveat will be how far does he goes (how much he gets) in matters of discount on the present order/a future order. This will shift some provisions on Boeing's financial books and will matter the invester more rather than the passenger.
There's no other options in the market since Airbus cannot shift A320s (let alone A220s) faster enough even without Boeing's woes. The only other solution is source in the market second hand airplanes which, by themselves, might (or not) carry issues in regards of the maintenance and quality of flight life they would hava had so far.
Last edited by Jomar777 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:42 am

There is a difference in making statements about future events to come, and ones reporting what you have done and what you are going to do next. Previously we had the former that did not accurately fore tell what occurred so they stopped. But we haven't been hearing the latter either except in the case of delays to return, not progress to return.
 
StTim
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Firstly, the flying public ARE interested (in its majority) on which aircraft they fly regardless of the price. Not only safety but also comfort, where to seat, easy of access, size of overhead bins, etc etc etc. already told us that the plane we fly ona determinated journey kind of matters.
Secondly, though, once the MAX is properly certified and start flying - provided it does not crashes again soon and for some sort of technical reasons, people will fly on them. We would potentially have stopped flying the A330 after AF447 if this was not true (there was quite at the same time another A330 that went down with Afriqiyah roughly at the same time but - crucially - before clear reasons of the AF crash were known).. Plane just need to fly safe for a while and then people will feel OK flying on them.
As for MOL's statement, it is more than natural and probably expected - the main caveat will be how far does he goes (how much he gets) in matters of discount on the present order/a future order. This will shift some provisions on Boeing's financial books and will matter the invester more rather than the passenger.
There's no other options in the market since Airbus cannot shift A320s (let alone A220s) faster enough even without Boeing's woes. The only other solution is source in the market second hand airplanes which, by themselves, might (or not) carry issues in regards of the maintenance and quality of flight life they would hava had so far.



I am sorry AF447 was a reason not to fly AF rather than to avoid the A330. In fact I have tried to avoid AF for many years as their crash rate was out of line with most majors. I did this despite knowing that the likelyhood of it being a flight affecting me was statistically very low.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:50 am

Coming back to Ryanair: It's the right time for Ryanair to negotiate. Like after 9-11 it's the MAX crisis and China developing on top now.
Ryanair after 9-11 accepted all those micro batches of built airplanes from other cancelled orders whenever Boeing wanted to deliver them. So it helped Boeing quite a lot. This might be happening again now. And as Ryanair is hooked to Boeing and the MAX there are not many moments where they can use their power against some manufacturer for better prices. It might be some good time to negotiate some wide bodies for Ryanair's long range project as well?
 
Jomar777
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:51 am

StTim wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Firstly, the flying public ARE interested (in its majority) on which aircraft they fly regardless of the price. Not only safety but also comfort, where to seat, easy of access, size of overhead bins, etc etc etc. already told us that the plane we fly ona determinated journey kind of matters.
Secondly, though, once the MAX is properly certified and start flying - provided it does not crashes again soon and for some sort of technical reasons, people will fly on them. We would potentially have stopped flying the A330 after AF447 if this was not true (there was quite at the same time another A330 that went down with Afriqiyah roughly at the same time but - crucially - before clear reasons of the AF crash were known).. Plane just need to fly safe for a while and then people will feel OK flying on them.
As for MOL's statement, it is more than natural and probably expected - the main caveat will be how far does he goes (how much he gets) in matters of discount on the present order/a future order. This will shift some provisions on Boeing's financial books and will matter the invester more rather than the passenger.
There's no other options in the market since Airbus cannot shift A320s (let alone A220s) faster enough even without Boeing's woes. The only other solution is source in the market second hand airplanes which, by themselves, might (or not) carry issues in regards of the maintenance and quality of flight life they would hava had so far.



I am sorry AF447 was a reason not to fly AF rather than to avoid the A330. In fact I have tried to avoid AF for many years as their crash rate was out of line with most majors. I did this despite knowing that the likelyhood of it being a flight affecting me was statistically very low.


Not really. AF did follow the procedures regarding the Pitot tubes and, even though it had not changed on this frame yet, it was clear that it should not have brought the Aircraft down so other reasons at that time were speculated which had nothing to do with a major airline. But we did not have the black boxes for over two years to define what exactly went wrong. In fact, the main reason for the accident was never really considered publicly until they were published.

I myself flew immedially after an A332 to GRU with Air France with no major issues and the plane was full. 3-4 months later after the accident, I flew AF445 to GIG (the new flight number after the accident). It was an A332 just like the one that went down. Again, no issues and flight full.

The only thing that sometimes put me off flying AF (and KL as well) nowadays, is that their pricing seems to gone slightly higher than their direct competition - but this is another story.
 
Olddog
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:00 am

I bet that time Boeing will not forget to add a clause forbidding MoL to brag out how much he rapped them....
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:15 am

I think it's more likely that Ryanair gets limited when reselling their aircraft second hand to the next airline. They used to undercut Boeing back then (at a profit to them as they had paid firesale prices for their aircraft after 9-11) and I think that got excluded. But that's not news but already current practice AFAIK.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:54 am

I don't think Boeing need to bite on this to be honest.

We *know* that Ryanair are not going to get good prices out of Airbus. Airbus no longer even bother replying to RFPs.

Therefore Ryanair simply have no other options - especially if they are desperate to get new airframes in to expand.


Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.
 
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Polot
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:58 am

Amiga500 wrote:
I don't think Boeing need to bite on this to be honest.

We *know* that Ryanair are not going to get good prices out of Airbus. Airbus no longer even bother replying to RFPs.

Therefore Ryanair simply have no other options - especially if they are desperate to get new airframes in to expand.


Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.

That was different Airbus sales management (heck different management period). I would not automatically assume Airbus is continuing to ignore Ryanair.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:05 am

Polot wrote:
That was different Airbus sales management (heck different management period). I would not automatically assume Airbus is continuing to ignore Ryanair.


I suspect they will utterly ignore Ryanair at the prices Ryanair would wish to negotiate at.

They have a backlog, they have the premium product, they could make much more lucrative deals elsewhere* if they manage to free up early production slots.


*relative to what Ryanair are willing to pay.
 
A330Inter
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:19 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JayBCN wrote:
The buyer making an offer ... is that really how it’s done ?


When the buyer has all the cards, why not?


The buyer doesn't have all the cards. Ryanair couldn't get 100 321Neos or A220s before 2025 now matter how much they begged. Who was the analyst a few weeks ago quoted as remarking the MAX is all there is?


Of course they can wait if the price is right, they have more than enough young 737NG in the fleet to fly their current schedule and for the next 5-10 years.
With Lauda now in the mix, Ryanair is also basically operating both 737 and A320 families, this is no longer a 100% Boeing territory.

Not sure also that Airbus will deliver all the current order book to airlines that may not see the light beyond the next 2 years, leaves plenty of options for Ryanair to negociate, even if Boeing's hand is not weak vs Ryanair, this is too big to lose and surely they will give something to Ryanair.
There have been precedents in history, MOL certainly has leverage to request Boeing to sit on the table and negociate.
 
DartHerald
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:23 am

This situation is not like that prevailing after 9/11, where nobody wanted to order and Boeing were desperate for any order they could get.. Now they have a full order book and pent up demand, so there's no real need to keep Ryanair on side - other than to perhaps keep them sweet in anticipation of harder times in the future.
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:31 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today

The reality is, there are A LOT of MAX orders. Airlines like Ryanair, and most American carriers have 100s of these on order. It will be difficult to avoid also These days cheap short haul is in vogue. Your average traveller isn’t going to go fishing out an a320neo On a legacy carrier when Ryanair is offering a max flight at next to nothing prices like they usually do. most people don’t even check and I’m sure airlines will make MAX flights cheaper to get people on it. Etc
 
ewt340
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:41 am

Polot wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
I don't think Boeing need to bite on this to be honest.

We *know* that Ryanair are not going to get good prices out of Airbus. Airbus no longer even bother replying to RFPs.

Therefore Ryanair simply have no other options - especially if they are desperate to get new airframes in to expand.


Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.

That was different Airbus sales management (heck different management period). I would not automatically assume Airbus is continuing to ignore Ryanair.


Quite the opposite actually. Airbus knows that Boeing would offer extremely big discount for Ryanair for publicity. And Ryanair gonna use Airbus as an leverage instead of actually discussing potential order.

Airbus know Ryanair wouldn't order A320neo series. They would only do so if Airbus give them 50% discount. Airbus are not willing to do that for 2 reason:
- Lower profit margin.
- Other Airlines would ask for high discount too because it's public knowledge that Ryanair always get at least 50% discount for every purchases.
 
ewt340
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today

The reality is, there are A LOT of MAX orders. Airlines like Ryanair, and most American carriers have 100s of these on order. It will be difficult to avoid also These days cheap short haul is in vogue. Your average traveller isn’t going to go fishing out an a320neo On a legacy carrier when Ryanair is offering a max flight at next to nothing prices like they usually do. most people don’t even check and I’m sure airlines will make MAX flights cheaper to get people on it. Etc


Problem with your theory is the fact that many airlines from Legacy carriers to LCCs uses A320 instead of B737. Some airlines also uses both.

Southwest, WestJet, Aeromexico are the three major airlines in North America who doesn't use A320 family at all. Other than that, majority of them use A320 family.
In Europe, majority of Legacy carrier uses A320 family. Major LCCs like Wizz, EasyJet, Eurowings and Pegasus uses A320 family.
In Asia, the largest airlines (mostly LCCs) use A320 family.
Air Asia, Cebu Pacific, VietJet, Jetstar Asia, Vistara, IndiGo, GoAir, Spring Airlines, Capital Airlines, Citilink.

People would just fly with EasyJet instead of Ryanair since their price and destinations are mostly the same. They don't have to fly BA or AF to avoid MAX.

Airlines are not going to discounted the ticket for flight on MAX plane.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:17 pm

Ryanair already has A320s with Lauda now. They are closer to Airbus now and first hand in the know about performance and reliability. However Airbus is sold out for years and does not need to give firesale pricing for A321neos to anybody.
 
morrisond
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:21 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
I don't think Boeing need to bite on this to be honest.

We *know* that Ryanair are not going to get good prices out of Airbus. Airbus no longer even bother replying to RFPs.

Therefore Ryanair simply have no other options - especially if they are desperate to get new airframes in to expand.


Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.

That was different Airbus sales management (heck different management period). I would not automatically assume Airbus is continuing to ignore Ryanair.


Quite the opposite actually. Airbus knows that Boeing would offer extremely big discount for Ryanair for publicity. And Ryanair gonna use Airbus as an leverage instead of actually discussing potential order.

Airbus know Ryanair wouldn't order A320neo series. They would only do so if Airbus give them 50% discount. Airbus are not willing to do that for 2 reason:
- Lower profit margin.
- Other Airlines would ask for high discount too because it's public knowledge that Ryanair always get at least 50% discount for every purchases.


50% is not an uncommon discount from both B & A these days on big orders. Several posters have shown excellent analysis on this topic on this forum in the last several days.
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:23 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today

The reality is, there are A LOT of MAX orders. Airlines like Ryanair, and most American carriers have 100s of these on order. It will be difficult to avoid also These days cheap short haul is in vogue. Your average traveller isn’t going to go fishing out an a320neo On a legacy carrier when Ryanair is offering a max flight at next to nothing prices like they usually do. most people don’t even check and I’m sure airlines will make MAX flights cheaper to get people on it. Etc


Problem with your theory is the fact that many airlines from Legacy carriers to LCCs uses A320 instead of B737. Some airlines also uses both.

Southwest, WestJet, Aeromexico are the three major airlines in North America who doesn't use A320 family at all. Other than that, majority of them use A320 family.
In Europe, majority of Legacy carrier uses A320 family. Major LCCs like Wizz, EasyJet, Eurowings and Pegasus uses A320 family.
In Asia, the largest airlines (mostly LCCs) use A320 family.
Air Asia, Cebu Pacific, VietJet, Jetstar Asia, Vistara, IndiGo, GoAir, Spring Airlines, Capital Airlines, Citilink.

People would just fly with EasyJet instead of Ryanair since their price and destinations are mostly the same. They don't have to fly BA or AF to avoid MAX.

Airlines are not going to discounted the ticket for flight on MAX plane.

It’s certainly not impossible but it will be difficult. Especially if groups like IAG take on their 200 Max LOI. Are we sure airlines won’t discount MAX flights? Especially as the MAX returns and delivery kicks in. Especially in the US
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:12 pm

So now we have got to a point where people are arguing for Boeing to sell their MAX planes at a discount so that airlines can also sell tickets at a discount. Otherwise no one will fly on it. How the mighty have fallen.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:16 pm

Boeing will end up with some cancelled and delayed orders anyway. Ryanair might be wanting and taking airplanes faster than others. So why not sell them to FR and reward the flexibility with some rebate? It's in Boeing's interest to keep the flow steady even with hickups on the demand curve now. Get the rate up fast, deliver those parked aircraft, get the supply chain going again ASAP.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.


Then Lauda Air gets a wad of money and is sent on a spending spree to Airbus :-)

( undesired resale and stuff:
did the A340 sale "overtake" by Boeing back in the 90ties
find any condensation in contract language? anybody in the know? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
ewt340
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:36 pm

Opus99 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The reality is, there are A LOT of MAX orders. Airlines like Ryanair, and most American carriers have 100s of these on order. It will be difficult to avoid also These days cheap short haul is in vogue. Your average traveller isn’t going to go fishing out an a320neo On a legacy carrier when Ryanair is offering a max flight at next to nothing prices like they usually do. most people don’t even check and I’m sure airlines will make MAX flights cheaper to get people on it. Etc


Problem with your theory is the fact that many airlines from Legacy carriers to LCCs uses A320 instead of B737. Some airlines also uses both.

Southwest, WestJet, Aeromexico are the three major airlines in North America who doesn't use A320 family at all. Other than that, majority of them use A320 family.
In Europe, majority of Legacy carrier uses A320 family. Major LCCs like Wizz, EasyJet, Eurowings and Pegasus uses A320 family.
In Asia, the largest airlines (mostly LCCs) use A320 family.
Air Asia, Cebu Pacific, VietJet, Jetstar Asia, Vistara, IndiGo, GoAir, Spring Airlines, Capital Airlines, Citilink.

People would just fly with EasyJet instead of Ryanair since their price and destinations are mostly the same. They don't have to fly BA or AF to avoid MAX.

Airlines are not going to discounted the ticket for flight on MAX plane.

It’s certainly not impossible but it will be difficult. Especially if groups like IAG take on their 200 Max LOI. Are we sure airlines won’t discount MAX flights? Especially as the MAX returns and delivery kicks in. Especially in the US


Are you sure airlines would want to lose billions of dollars in income because of MAX? LOL.

Saying it's difficult to choose to fly on A320 are hella weird. I just gave you the list of major airlines around the world who operated A320 aircraft. Many of them ARE the CHEAPEST options to fly.

Why would you fly on the more expensive airlines that fly the MAX?
 
Amiga500
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:46 pm

WIederling wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Indeed, if I were Boeing, I'd play hardball and rise the agreed prices.


Then Lauda Air gets a wad of money and is sent on a spending spree to Airbus :-)


Doubt it - the price Airbus can command for any A32x will be significantly in excess of what Boeing are getting paid by Ryanair.

Boeing could half that price gap (and they'll have a brave idea what the gap is) and Ryanair would still have no other choice.
 
Carlitos471
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:49 pm

Opus99 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today

The reality is, there are A LOT of MAX orders. Airlines like Ryanair, and most American carriers have 100s of these on order.[b][b] It will be difficult to avoid[/b][/b] also These days cheap short haul is in vogue. Your average traveller isn’t going to go fishing out an a320neo On a legacy carrier when Ryanair is offering a max flight at next to nothing prices like they usually do. most people don’t even check and I’m sure airlines will make MAX flights cheaper to get people on it. Etc


It will be easy to avoid both EasyJet and Wizz have an Airbus fleet and most of the legacy airliners are not more expensive once you ad luggage and seat choice.
 
Opus99
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:55 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Problem with your theory is the fact that many airlines from Legacy carriers to LCCs uses A320 instead of B737. Some airlines also uses both.

Southwest, WestJet, Aeromexico are the three major airlines in North America who doesn't use A320 family at all. Other than that, majority of them use A320 family.
In Europe, majority of Legacy carrier uses A320 family. Major LCCs like Wizz, EasyJet, Eurowings and Pegasus uses A320 family.
In Asia, the largest airlines (mostly LCCs) use A320 family.
Air Asia, Cebu Pacific, VietJet, Jetstar Asia, Vistara, IndiGo, GoAir, Spring Airlines, Capital Airlines, Citilink.

People would just fly with EasyJet instead of Ryanair since their price and destinations are mostly the same. They don't have to fly BA or AF to avoid MAX.

Airlines are not going to discounted the ticket for flight on MAX plane.

It’s certainly not impossible but it will be difficult. Especially if groups like IAG take on their 200 Max LOI. Are we sure airlines won’t discount MAX flights? Especially as the MAX returns and delivery kicks in. Especially in the US


Are you sure airlines would want to lose billions of dollars in income because of MAX? LOL.

Saying it's difficult to choose to fly on A320 are hella weird. I just gave you the list of major airlines around the world who operated A320 aircraft. Many of them ARE the CHEAPEST options to fly.

Why would you fly on the more expensive airlines that fly the MAX?

I didn’t say it’s difficult to choose to fly one a neo. I just said it’s difficult to avoid the MAX as it returns to service because it the number of MAXes will increase. Especially in the US. In Europe the neo is more popular of course. But in North America the 737s are more popular. And so is the MAX. It will be difficult to avoid. You’re not listening to my argument and most normal fliers don’t necessarily go out of their way to look for a certain aircraft. In the short run they probably will but it will evaporate and people will move on to something else.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:11 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
People WILL NOT forget about the MAX. Not in the social media & internet age. 10- 15 years ago maybe. not today

The real question is will they change their flying habits because of the MAX.

I think some will, for a small period of time.

As time rolls forward they should be seeing the world's regulators approving RTS, their favorite airlines doing a bunch of test flights to get their crews current and show the plane doesn't fall out of the sky, then they will see friends get on MAX and have safe flights, and within a period of time their fear of MAX will be overcome by whatever made them chose a given airline flying MAX to begin with.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
leghorn
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:34 pm

Lauda will get 737Max if the price is right. That is a win for Beoing and released A320s will soften the market for new A320s
Buzz will get 737Max-10 for holiday destinations.
Ryanair Main will be happy to take 737Max200 and Max-10.

Ryanair will have very competitive airframes for the next 15 years by which time the next generation of Boeing and Airbus planes will be available to order. They'll barge to the top of queue, take whatever slots free up. dispose of their fleet of old planes and the orders from Lease companies will get softer and softer. Lease companies are somewhat traditional lease companies and somewhat speculative commodity traders.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:41 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Time will tell if this ballsy or foolish. Never thought it would drag on this long, if there is not concrete information coming soon you have to wonder what other shoe is dropping in the background.


I wonder if the FAA etc. are still not satisfied with Boeing's current solution - and why isn't Boeing communicating better?


Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


So you are saying that the FAA wants Boeing to be quiet so that the FAA can publish their own proprietary version of reality? I don't buy it. Boeing would only improve its image if it offered a clear and truthful account, whatever it might involve them having to say. Right now it seems as if we are all lost in the miasma of Boeing's own uncertainty and untruthfulness.
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:49 pm

leghorn wrote:
Lauda will get 737Max if the price is right. That is a win for Beoing and released A320s will soften the market for new A320s
Buzz will get 737Max-10 for holiday destinations.
Ryanair Main will be happy to take 737Max200 and Max-10.

Ryanair will have very competitive airframes for the next 15 years by which time the next generation of Boeing and Airbus planes will be available to order. They'll barge to the top of queue, take whatever slots free up. dispose of their fleet of old planes and the orders from Lease companies will get softer and softer. Lease companies are somewhat traditional lease companies and somewhat speculative commodity traders.


I'm not so certain with Lauda getting MAX. It has long been known that MOL wanted to get his hands on 320s and Lauda was a happy match when it became part of the group. FR are owed a ton of compensation that he is going to fight hard over, so am sure he will fight hard to get MAX10s for the original price he paid for the MAX200s.

Any reporting I have read just mentions an offer for MAX10, never says if this is additional orders or conversions from existing, or firming of options. Only 135 MAX orders are firm, could the 75 options have conversion rights, or be part of compensation payment and become MAX10s at no additional cost to FR?

Anyway, only one person knows the outcome for sure, and thats MOL, the rest of us are just speculating.
 
Noshow
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:58 pm

...so am sure he will fight hard to get MAX10s for the original price he paid for the MAX200s.

This. Exactly.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:01 pm

leghorn wrote:
Lauda will get 737Max if the price is right. That is a win for Beoing and released A320s will soften the market for new A320s
Buzz will get 737Max-10 for holiday destinations.
Ryanair Main will be happy to take 737Max200 and Max-10.

Ryanair will have very competitive airframes for the next 15 years by which time the next generation of Boeing and Airbus planes will be available to order. They'll barge to the top of queue, take whatever slots free up. dispose of their fleet of old planes and the orders from Lease companies will get softer and softer. Lease companies are somewhat traditional lease companies and somewhat speculative commodity traders.

Give me some of what you're smoking...

Lauda has 23 A320's; you really think that 23 planes, even if released on the used market at once, will "soften the market for new A320s"??? It's a drop in the Olympic swimming pool...
 
SEU
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:07 pm

For me, who needs who more? Personally, Ryanair need 737MAXs more than Boeing needs their custom. They still have thousands of orders.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:14 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
I wonder if the FAA etc. are still not satisfied with Boeing's current solution - and why isn't Boeing communicating better?

Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Woooh, that's some tinfoil hat wearing non-sense right there....
learning never stops...

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WIederling
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:22 pm

SEU wrote:
For me, who needs who more? Personally, Ryanair need 737MAXs more than Boeing needs their custom. They still have thousands of orders.


All sitting on rather thin ice at the moment.
Ask shareholders. Butterfly's touch causing an avalanche.

Independent of the general MAX issues the MAX200 has certification held up due to evacuation requirements conformance.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Bhoy
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:13 pm

Noshow wrote:
Boeing will end up with some cancelled and delayed orders anyway. Ryanair might be wanting and taking airplanes faster than others. So why not sell them to FR and reward the flexibility with some rebate? It's in Boeing's interest to keep the flow steady even with hickups on the demand curve now. Get the rate up fast, deliver those parked aircraft, get the supply chain going again ASAP.

Would Ryanair want to take up Max 8s without the 8200’s midcabin exit?

(Or are we talking production slots rather than Planes currently stored, which may end up not being taken up?)
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:15 pm

WIederling wrote:
SEU wrote:
For me, who needs who more? Personally, Ryanair need 737MAXs more than Boeing needs their custom. They still have thousands of orders.


All sitting on rather thin ice at the moment.
Ask shareholders. Butterfly's touch causing an avalanche.

Independent of the general MAX issues the MAX200 has certification held up due to evacuation requirements conformance.


.... exacltly this is the fact. What if Boeing can`t deliver what MOL signed by contract ? Move away to the MAX 10 ?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:19 pm

Polot wrote:
“Repricing” the current order is just a form of compensation for the grounding delays. Instead of Boeing giving them money it is applied as credit to future aircraft. Negotiations is just how much they get. There are a lot of airlines out there repricing their current orders.


That assertion is not aligned with the information available. RyanAir is seeking further discounts on their current order on top of their compensation claim. Secondary to that, they've made Boeing an offer for the -10 version, undoubtedly at a price which 2 years ago would have had the Boeing sales team laughing their socks of, whereas today they're probably searching deep for the sharpest pen in the drawer.

"Kick 'em while their down" is the unofficial motto of MoL, something he's shown to be remarkably skilled at previously.
Signature. You just read one.
 
ferminbrif
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:35 pm

scbriml wrote:
JayBCN wrote:
The buyer making an offer ... is that really how it’s done ?


When the buyer has all the cards, why not?
I totally agree with you because Boeing is in such a weak position to negotiate….
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:38 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Can you please point us towards a single piece of information from Boeing on the RTS schedule, which ended up resembling what actually transpired?

I'm of the firm belief one of the major reasons Muilenberg got the sack was due to the constant flow of disinformation, promising RTS within the next few months. There is no doubt in my mind the main reason for that was to put pressure on the FAA, and the FAA finally had enough of it and publicly denounced Boeing for this practice. It is certainly within the realms of possibility the head of the FAA went directly to the Boeing board and told them they'd lost confidence in Dennis. And when your regulator has lost trust in your CEO, there's only one thing for the board to do.
Last edited by B777LRF on Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Signature. You just read one.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:42 pm

ferminbrif wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JayBCN wrote:
The buyer making an offer ... is that really how it’s done ?


When the buyer has all the cards, why not?
I totally agree with you because Boeing is in such a weak position to negotiate….

why is Boeing in a weak position ? Yes they are in trouble but on the other side they know that Airbus will give them no better deal at all. Gambling ground ...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Exactly. It's clear the FAA wants full information control. They don't want any outside party exposing their lack of rational progress in the return to service.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Woooh, that's some tinfoil hat wearing non-sense right there....


It's what the evidence strongly points to. Flat-out denying the theory as not possible is simply ignoring reality. and responding with a personal attack strengthens that opinion and invalidates your rebuttal.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:00 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Exactly. It's clear the FAA wants full information control. They don't want any outside party exposing their lack of rational progress in the return to service.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Woooh, that's some tinfoil hat wearing non-sense right there....


It's what the evidence strongly points to. Flat-out denying the theory as not possible is simply ignoring reality. and responding with a personal attack strengthens that opinion and invalidates your rebuttal.


Could you please point us to just a single piece of evidence that will back up that claim? Contrary to the nonsense you've often peddled here, Boeing are yet to release the final version of MCAS 2.whatever, nor have the solved the dual-sensor or dual-FCC issue. Or, as the case may well be, any of the other issues which popped as the regulators dug much deeper than Boeing found comfortable. There was even reports from the FAA they hadn't even submitted the correct paperwork, but zero reports from anybody saying that task had been closed.
Signature. You just read one.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:18 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Could you please point us to just a single piece of evidence that will back up that claim? Contrary to the nonsense you've often peddled here, Boeing are yet to release the final version of MCAS 2.whatever, nor have the solved the dual-sensor or dual-FCC issue. Or, as the case may well be, any of the other issues which popped as the regulators dug much deeper than Boeing found comfortable. There was even reports from the FAA they hadn't even submitted the correct paperwork, but zero reports from anybody saying that task had been closed.


As expected. I don't believe you have a honest desire for me to point you to anything. And since it appears you've been following the grounding, I can assume you do know the evidence, but you've already rejected its validity as it doesn't fit the "Boeing is evil" narrative. Conclusions always wrongly determine the evidence, not correctly vice versa.

I'll give one more chance. What is one stated reason why the Boeing CEO was let go?
 
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Polot
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:21 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Polot wrote:
“Repricing” the current order is just a form of compensation for the grounding delays. Instead of Boeing giving them money it is applied as credit to future aircraft. Negotiations is just how much they get. There are a lot of airlines out there repricing their current orders.


That assertion is not aligned with the information available. RyanAir is seeking further discounts on their current order on top of their compensation claim.

I’m not sure where you are getting that from. Their expectation on a 737MAX reprice is tied to their compensation claim (which Ryanair have announced won’t be settled until RTS). The two are negotiated hand in hand and can’t be separated. What is Ryanair going to do if Boeing refuses their reprice demands on top of compensation claims? Cancel the order and give up a lot of potential compensation?
Last edited by Polot on Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
TaromA380
Posts: 363
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:22 pm

B777LRF wrote:
"Kick 'em while their down" is the unofficial motto of MoL, something he's shown to be remarkably skilled at previously.

The post-9/11 "raping" as well as today's proposal undoubtfully not different in spirit, sets MOL as benchmark for desperate times.

You know that your problems are not serious enough until MOL knocks at the door
 
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Revelation
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:38 pm

B777LRF wrote:
That assertion is not aligned with the information available. RyanAir is seeking further discounts on their current order on top of their compensation claim. Secondary to that, they've made Boeing an offer for the -10 version, undoubtedly at a price which 2 years ago would have had the Boeing sales team laughing their socks of, whereas today they're probably searching deep for the sharpest pen in the drawer.

"Kick 'em while their down" is the unofficial motto of MoL, something he's shown to be remarkably skilled at previously.

Proposing outlandish things via the press is also a MoL trademark.

MAX has a huge backlog that Boeing cannot service, adding to it would be making things worse rather than better.

However MoL is generating free advertising by making cheeky statements, so all's good.
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scbriml
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Re: Ryanair submits offer to Boeing on new 737MAX order

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:11 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Because anytime Boeing tries to do the right thing and keep the public informed, the FAA throws a fit.


Exactly. It's clear the FAA wants full information control. They don't want any outside party exposing their lack of rational progress in the return to service.


So provide an example of the FAA “throwing a fit”. Multiple people have asked TTailedTiger and he’s failed to respond. Otherwise we should just order more tin foil hats.
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