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Steelhead
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Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:48 pm

That would be the end for Bombardier's aviation interests. Very sad how this company goes down in such a short period. Would be a nice addition to the Cessna line-up if this goes through.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... ar-BBZDUOT
 
AC77X
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:52 pm

That's horrible, they're my favorite aircraft manufacturer.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:55 pm

If they also sell rail too what will Bombardier make?
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FlyHossD
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:00 pm

What would this mean for Learjet? IIRC, Lear production (i.e. sales) has been slow already.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Steelhead
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:12 pm

Most likely the end for Learjet. Cessna has all they need in the market.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:14 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
If they also sell rail too what will Bombardier make?


SNOW MOBILES and BEER
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:23 pm

Maybe that was intended to be facetious, but Bombardier Recreational Products got spun off years ago.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe that was intended to be facetious, but Bombardier Recreational Products got spun off years ago.


It was ... I would love to see PIPER pick up the LEAR division, but I don't think they have the deep pockets to do so.
 
SEU
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:21 pm

To think that in reality Boeing started this :(
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:22 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
If they also sell rail too what will Bombardier make?

more money?
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:07 pm

Steelhead wrote:
Most likely the end for Learjet. Cessna has all they need in the market.


When Textron took over Hawker-Beechcraft they shuttered the Hawker line of jets since they were similar to the larger Citations. Learjet is much the same story and their market share has dwindled from its glory days. But gaining the Challenger 300 and Global Express lines will allow Textron to compete for the high-end of the biz jet market with Gulfstream.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:23 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Steelhead wrote:
Most likely the end for Learjet. Cessna has all they need in the market.


When Textron took over Hawker-Beechcraft they shuttered the Hawker line of jets since they were similar to the larger Citations. Learjet is much the same story and their market share has dwindled from its glory days. But gaining the Challenger 300 and Global Express lines will allow Textron to compete for the high-end of the biz jet market with Gulfstream.

Isn't shutting down the Lear line going to remove the Lear Family (from Bill Lear) a source of income? I thought remembering reading on a.net that they were getting royalties for each Lear plane sold. I might be wrong though.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 pm

The Citation Global sounds pretty nice IMO.

I wonder if the jets will remain in a separate product line or be put into the Citation line
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 pm

SEU wrote:
To think that in reality Boeing started this :(

BBD started it by trying to develop three different new airplanes at once.

TFA says:

Shares of Textron rose more than 9%, while those of Bombardier's were up over 10%.

Seems the markets like this idea.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:32 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Steelhead wrote:
Most likely the end for Learjet. Cessna has all they need in the market.


When Textron took over Hawker-Beechcraft they shuttered the Hawker line of jets since they were similar to the larger Citations. Learjet is much the same story and their market share has dwindled from its glory days. But gaining the Challenger 300 and Global Express lines will allow Textron to compete for the high-end of the biz jet market with Gulfstream.

Isn't shutting down the Lear line going to remove the Lear Family (from Bill Lear) a source of income? I thought remembering reading on a.net that they were getting royalties for each Lear plane sold. I might be wrong though.



The Lear family was “bought out” decades ago after a lawsuit by them claiming royalties for each CRJ. BBD defense claimed the CRJ was a different type. A Quebec court found in favor of the Lear family and a one-time payment in settlement was made—lots of zeros, too.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

When Textron took over Hawker-Beechcraft they shuttered the Hawker line of jets since they were similar to the larger Citations. Learjet is much the same story and their market share has dwindled from its glory days. But gaining the Challenger 300 and Global Express lines will allow Textron to compete for the high-end of the biz jet market with Gulfstream.

Isn't shutting down the Lear line going to remove the Lear Family (from Bill Lear) a source of income? I thought remembering reading on a.net that they were getting royalties for each Lear plane sold. I might be wrong though.



The Lear family was “bought out” decades ago after a lawsuit by them claiming royalties for each CRJ. BBD defense claimed the CRJ was a different type. A Quebec court found in favor of the Lear family and a one-time payment in settlement was made—lots of zeros, too.

Ah... My mistake.
Thanks for the correction.
 
queb
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe that was intended to be facetious, but Bombardier Recreational Products got spun off years ago.


Yes but the Bombardier family is still a major shareholder of BRP
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:06 pm

queb wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe that was intended to be facetious, but Bombardier Recreational Products got spun off years ago.


Yes but the Bombardier family is still a major shareholder of BRP


The joke was, “they knew where the real money was”.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:41 pm

SEU wrote:
To think that in reality Boeing started this :(


I am no Boeing fan whatsoever, but really, how did Boeing start this? BBD bit off more than it could chew, that's all.
 
leghorn
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 pm

It is suggested that this is a negotiating tactic to get Alstrom to hurry up and bid for the rail business/partnership.
They have 1.5Bn of debt coming due that they won't be able to roll over if something fundamental doesn't happen soon.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:29 pm

queb wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Maybe that was intended to be facetious, but Bombardier Recreational Products got spun off years ago.


Yes but the Bombardier family is still a major shareholder of BRP


That's fine, but Bombardier has no ownership or voting stake in BRP.

The Beaudoin ~35% stake in BRP is worth a lot more than its ~17% stake in Bombardier.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:50 am

SierraPacific wrote:
The Citation Global sounds pretty nice IMO.

I wonder if the jets will remain in a separate product line or be put into the Citation line


I would not be surprised if this deal goes down that Textron might want to move the Challenger & Global lines from Canada to Wichita. That way Textron would have all of their general aviation and business aircraft operations in one location.

On the other hand, Textron might be forced to spin off and sell Learjet, especially if Textron intends to shut Learjet down. With Bombadier leaving, most of the business jet market will be dominated by Textron, with Gulfstream, Dassault and Embraer left to fight over the rest. One possible Learjet suitor might be Spirit Aerosystems, who could be looking to diversify after being left hanging by the interruption of their 737MAX subcontracting work.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:54 am

Selling 12-15 Lears a year is not worth Spirit’s money.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:33 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The joke was, “they knew where the real money was”.


Definitely not a joke, 100% true.

MIflyer12 wrote:
The Beaudoin ~35% stake in BRP is worth a lot more than its ~17% stake in Bombardier.


It is now, yea.
 
b764
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:58 am

It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Selling 12-15 Lears a year is not worth Spirit’s money.


Selling so few would probably be in a loss position, hard to sell. The buyer would primarily be interesting in servicing the existing fleet, as the fleet is retired who wants that business.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:49 am

I like this deal. Mostly for the Challenger and Globals finding a safe home. Suddenly Textron is at the high end.

b764 has a nice list, but in my opinion a few of the models sales years are done. (Global 500, 6000, and 8000, probably soon Challenger upgrades to keep those lines going.

This ends any hope of a Hemisphere and say goodbye to Lear production.

Lightsaber
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:54 am

- Bombardier sells business jet division
- Bombardier sells CSeries factories to Spirit

... now Bombardier just needs to get rid of its remaining CSeries shares.
Good moaning!
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:01 am

Writing is on the wall for the wider BBD company. At most, this is gonna raise $2B. They have an approx $5B real hole.

No way will rail be able to close that hole in either a marked-up sell-off or in profits from improved operations.

They will go under within 5 years.
 
DashTrash
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:24 pm

b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.

I could see them putting a new wing, engines and Garmin garbage on the fat Challenger line and renaming it. Leaving it in it’s current form is likely a non-starter.

The 350 line would likely go away. Cessna already has the Longitude out which does almost the same role while the 350 is an almost two decade old frame now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:56 pm

DashTrash wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.

I could see them putting a new wing, engines and Garmin garbage on the fat Challenger line and renaming it. Leaving it in it’s current form is likely a non-starter.

The 350 line would likely go away. Cessna already has the Longitude out which does almost the same role while the 350 is an almost two decade old frame now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 600 is too old for that—go back and restart the Hemisphere is a better idea. The 350 has a larger cabin and for options for growth than the Longitude, which stays might be a hard call. 800+ deliveries is a big base.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DashTrash wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.

I could see them putting a new wing, engines and Garmin garbage on the fat Challenger line and renaming it. Leaving it in it’s current form is likely a non-starter.

The 350 line would likely go away. Cessna already has the Longitude out which does almost the same role while the 350 is an almost two decade old frame now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The 600 is too old for that—go back and restart the Hemisphere is a better idea. The 350 has a larger cabin and for options for growth than the Longitude, which stays might be a hard call. 800+ deliveries is a big base.

The Chsllenger 6xx line needs CRJ production for economics of scale. I agree than a new Hemisphere is the path forward.

The 3xx line is an easy product to update. Wing, engines, avionics, and cabin are ripe for improvement. Err... Perhaps a new Hemisphere...

Drop the idea of a shrunk 7500 for range. The airframe should be PiP'd at the current length.

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trpmb6
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:11 pm

b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.


They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:48 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.


They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.

I want to expand on the Longitude's Hawker wing.

Textron, if they acquire Bombardier's business jet line will mix and match cockpits, landing gear, doors, cross sections, wings, and tails to minimize development cost. Since the 777 has a 767 cockpit/nose, why not?

For certain Cessna want to keep Challenger customers.

This also gives Textron leverage on engines. The weakest link on the Challenger 350 is engine fuel burn. GE, RR, Pratt, and Honeywell will much more serious with a healthy airframer.

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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:09 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
...At most, this is gonna raise $2B...

Benoit Poirier, analyst from Desjardins, expects the business aircraft division to fetch between US$6.1B and US$6.9B .

He also said that BBD first priority will be to buy back the Caisse de Depot et de Placement $2B position in BBD Transport (me: which is costing BBD a 15% special dividends per year). Then apply the remaining proceeds to the debt.

FWIW, that same analyst correctly predicted the $$ proceeds from the Short's Belfast (& Morrocco) asset sale.

Source: "Bombardier à la croisée des chemins" https://lp.ca/el3naC (In french)
 
YULobserver
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The Chsllenger 6xx line needs CRJ production for economics of scale. I agree than a new Hemisphere is the path forward.
Lightsaber



The 605 and 650 has been self sustained since 2007ish. There used to be major commonality with the CRJ200 back in the CL604 days.
There is close to zero commonality left with current production CRJs.
I agree the CL60X design seems to be really close to obsolescence. A new wing is needed (Bombardier has known this for years) but the development and cert costs put it really close to favor a new design from scratch.

lightsaber wrote:
The 3xx line is an easy product to update. Wing, engines, avionics, and cabin are ripe for improvement. Err... Perhaps a new Hemisphere...
Lightsaber


I was working for BBD in the past, drawing were ready for new avionics suite (PL21 to Fusion), Autothrottle, synthetic vision, etc. UPdate was needed as everyone was catching up. This has been the best seller in its class for 15 years. This was slated to be flying sometime this year or early next year.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:55 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
...At most, this is gonna raise $2B...

Benoit Poirier, analyst from Desjardins, expects the business aircraft division to fetch between US$6.1B and US$6.9B .

He also said that BBD first priority will be to buy back the Caisse de Depot et de Placement $2B position in BBD Transport (me: which is costing BBD a 15% special dividends per year). Then apply the remaining proceeds to the debt.

FWIW, that same analyst correctly predicted the $$ proceeds from the Short's Belfast (& Morrocco) asset sale.

Source: "Bombardier à la croisée des chemins" https://lp.ca/el3naC (In french)


WHAT?!?!?!

That is miles above where I thought it would be.

Not alone either - a quick search around produced:

https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... extron-wsj

Sheila Kahyaoglu, an analyst at Jefferies, valued Bombardier’s private-jet business at US$6.7 billion.


I don't think its worth that - but I'm not the one that would be best placed to value it.

But $6.7B on a business that is operating on a 5% margin doesn't look great to me.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:07 pm

Desjardins was mentionning a 7% margin - despite the recent G7500 production delays. Then you add the economy of scale that Textron (by example) would obtain.

As BBD's costs of borrowing are currently way north of 7%, its assets can be more profitable under a different owner, like Textron.

If BBD successfully sells one of its division, we may pretend that its costs of borrowing (lifting from junk grade to acceptable?) could be lowered enough to make BBD profitable again.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:22 pm

How much do you divide that margin by for BBD making the books look as rosy as possible?

Although I suppose, given they want trains to look as enticing as possible to Alstom, maybe they've nowhere to hide bad numbers.


BBD are so badly run - over decades - that I wouldn't lend them the steam off my piss. So can't see their costs of borrowing plummet.

I also cannot see Alstom actually wanting a merger - why bother with the risk when you can likely (cherry) pick over the bones in a year or two?
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:45 pm

I wouldn't say "over decades", but let's say it started off when Laurent Beaudoin left as CEO.

And despite all the above, they still made an excellent run with the CRJs, the Globals, the Challengers (3xx and 6xx) and what not. They locally invested tremendously in R&D, and designed fantastic products. All this aerospace cluster in now well embedded in Montréal, and is here to stay. It basiccally attracted Airbus, and Mitsubishi more recently. -->> And more announcements are coming soon that will make us forget this assets sale.

So yes, BBD is now getting at the end of its life cycle. But hey, that was worth it big time - from a local economy perspective. Let's just say we obtained way more bang for the buck (and in R&D) for the gvt $ invested, than the Chrysler / GM bailout - where almost no R&D is performed in Canada.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.


They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.

I want to expand on the Longitude's Hawker wing.

Textron, if they acquire Bombardier's business jet line will mix and match cockpits, landing gear, doors, cross sections, wings, and tails to minimize development cost. Since the 777 has a 767 cockpit/nose, why not?

For certain Cessna want to keep Challenger customers.

This also gives Textron leverage on engines. The weakest link on the Challenger 350 is engine fuel burn. GE, RR, Pratt, and Honeywell will much more serious with a healthy airframer.

Lightsaber


Exactly. Txt has wanted to get into the larger jet, higher margins, business for a long time but they don't want to spend a ton developing it at this point. It's a good fit and mix for them. They can keep customers by doing block points that are badly needed on the bombardier side. Like a wing upgrade etc.

Learn is a dead brand though. Only worth the price of aftermarket now.

I'd value the transaction in the 2 to 3 billion range. Probably on the higher side. I just don't know where txt would get the cash for such an acquisition.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 26109
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:40 pm

Interesting tweet captures the situation pretty accurately:

Scott Hamilton
@LeehamNews

Richard Aboulafia, commenting on @Bombardier decline: it was like take a suicide pill to collect on an insurance policy. @PNAAlliance

Ref: https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 5934234624
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:47 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.


They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.


I agree. The Citation M2 is a favorite entry level bizjet for small/medium-sized businesses. This gets them hooked on the convienience factor of business jet ownership. Textron's marketing people know that M2 buyers will be wanting to step up in a couple of years of flying around in a cramped, lavatory-less, range-restricted jet. Also, their insurers tend to frown on allowing the businesses' clients flying around on a single-pilot, owner-flown jet, even if it is legal under FAR Part 91.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:56 pm

Heck, there is, or was, an owner-flown Global-hubby and wife.

The future 6xx replacement is a Global 7500 barrel, cockpit and FBW controls with a fuselage length of about 24” longer than the present 6xx cabin. The 350 has a little room for improvement-not going Fusion when the 350 came out was a bit bad economy. Auto throttle have been an issue as the Lear designed center pedestal won’t allow moving throttles like every other BBD design. The G5500/6500 is going to need a renewal to add in FBW. Not sure if that can be done on the present frame or so expensive an entire new frame is better. The size is right and it’s fairly efficient.

Problem is bizjets are so specific, it’s hard to derivative design. A shortened 7500 would be massively overbuilt as a 4500 or 5500.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:35 pm

I would be really surprised if the business aircraft unit wasn't the last thing they sold. It's been referred to as the "crown jewel" for the Bombardiers (the family, not the company). Despite all this talk my bet is the trains still go first.
 
DashTrash
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
b764 wrote:
It makes perfect sense for Textron/Cessna. Since they halted further development of the Hemisphere, the Challenger 650 can fill it's role. Then you have the Global 5500, 6500 and 7500 to offer your high-end customers. Lear seems like the casualty in all this. I don't see it sticking around when you can offer the Latitude.

Line Up:
M2 = 1,550 nm
CJ3+ = 2,040 nm
CJ4 = 2,165 nm
XLS+ = 2,100 nm
Latitude = 2,700 nm
Sovereign+ = 3,200 nm
Challenger 350 = 3,200 nm
Longitude = 3,500 nm
Challenger 650 = 4,00 nm
Challenger 5000 = 5,200 nm
Challenger 5500 = 5,900 nm
Challenger 6000 = 6,000 nm
Challenger 6500 = 6,600 nm
Challenger 7500 = 7.700 nm
Challenger 8000 = 7,900 nm

Sell the M2 to Cirrus. Then you have a line-up: CJ3+ or CJ4, Latitude, 350, Longitude, 650, 5500, 6500, 7500 then 8000 if needed.


They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.

I want to expand on the Longitude's Hawker wing.

Textron, if they acquire Bombardier's business jet line will mix and match cockpits, landing gear, doors, cross sections, wings, and tails to minimize development cost. Since the 777 has a 767 cockpit/nose, why not?

For certain Cessna want to keep Challenger customers.

This also gives Textron leverage on engines. The weakest link on the Challenger 350 is engine fuel burn. GE, RR, Pratt, and Honeywell will much more serious with a healthy airframer.

Lightsaber

350 fuel burn? Same engine as the Longitude. Now what the Long burns per hour I don’t know, but around 2200-2000 in the 350.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:16 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
I would be really surprised if the business aircraft unit wasn't the last thing they sold. It's been referred to as the "crown jewel" for the Bombardiers (the family, not the company). Despite all this talk my bet is the trains still go first.



I tend to agree. And in truth, I'm not sure anyone should be too excited by additional consolidation. A word of caution out there, Beechcraft is basically nothing more than a name on Cessna buildings. It's kind of like the Boeing - Mcdonnell Douglas type of acquisition, only worse. Very few of the former Beechcraft people remain.

If they were to relocate BBD to Wichita, it'd be even worse.

There's long been talk that this may happen some day. I just don't think Textron has the cash to meet what BBD thinks they're worth.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7589
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:29 pm

DashTrash wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

They wouldn't divest the M2.

Textron acquiring BBD's business jet business has been the talk for several years. They would not divest lear. They want the aftermarket and they want to do what they did with Beechcraft owners: they want to lure them into their product line so they will keep the brand and try and throw them a bone like they did with the Longitude. Longitude is a hawker 4000 wing with a latitude fuselage. The perfect marrying of the brands.

I do wonder what they would do with production. I doubt they'd move it initially. Not much space in Wichita really.

I want to expand on the Longitude's Hawker wing.

Textron, if they acquire Bombardier's business jet line will mix and match cockpits, landing gear, doors, cross sections, wings, and tails to minimize development cost. Since the 777 has a 767 cockpit/nose, why not?

For certain Cessna want to keep Challenger customers.

This also gives Textron leverage on engines. The weakest link on the Challenger 350 is engine fuel burn. GE, RR, Pratt, and Honeywell will much more serious with a healthy airframer.

Lightsaber

350 fuel burn? Same engine as the Longitude. Now what the Long burns per hour I don’t know, but around 2200-2000 in the 350.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually more like 2800 the first hour and 1800 per hour at cruise M.80 at 430 or 450. Even a CL 605 at 38000# won’t burn 2200 pph
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1649
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:31 pm

If they did buy BBD, would Textron dip their toes in the regional jet market down the road?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7589
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Bombardier in talks to sell business-jet unit to Textron

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:40 pm

Not a chance! Just look at the history of regional jets. The closest might be a pax version of the SkyCourier or maybe a new-design 1900

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