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ACCS300
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:25 pm

Although the 737-800 has higher landing speeds, small gear, less ability to flare I'm sure there's something 'off' with Pegasus' training for this airport as many other 737-800s from other carriers don't seem to have this problem at SAW.
 
kayik
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:26 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Although the 737-800 has higher landing speeds, small gear, less ability to flare I'm sure there's something 'off' with Pegasus' training for this airport as many other 737-800s from other carriers don't seem to have this problem at SAW.


SAW is the Pegasus hub.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:29 pm

bgm wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
This has nothing to do with Boeing but rather safety culture and unfortunate situations. Any attempt to just blame Team B and 737 is getting old.

Hope everyone survives.


The 737NG has a significantly higher approach speed vs other aircraft, and given the tiny landing gear and risk of tail strike, has much less room to flare on touchdown. That combined with bad weather or poor pilot skills (which seems to be commonplace in Turkey) puts this aircraft type at a much higher risk of events like these.



They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:36 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
bgm wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
This has nothing to do with Boeing but rather safety culture and unfortunate situations. Any attempt to just blame Team B and 737 is getting old.

Hope everyone survives.


The 737NG has a significantly higher approach speed vs other aircraft, and given the tiny landing gear and risk of tail strike, has much less room to flare on touchdown. That combined with bad weather or poor pilot skills (which seems to be commonplace in Turkey) puts this aircraft type at a much higher risk of events like these.



They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Why didn't they request an approach with headwind? Can a pilot request that or is it the airport that decides which direction a plane lands?
Also, it must have been quite clear that they were not going to stop before the end of the runway, why didn't they perform a go-around?
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gokmengs
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:41 pm

+1 Seriously there is a time when the classic anet jokes are super timeless to the point of being disrespectful to souls on board and their kin.


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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:43 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
bgm wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
This has nothing to do with Boeing but rather safety culture and unfortunate situations. Any attempt to just blame Team B and 737 is getting old.

Hope everyone survives.


The 737NG has a significantly higher approach speed vs other aircraft, and given the tiny landing gear and risk of tail strike, has much less room to flare on touchdown. That combined with bad weather or poor pilot skills (which seems to be commonplace in Turkey) puts this aircraft type at a much higher risk of events like these.



They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


And gusts up to 37+ knots. Just way too high for a wet landing.
Good moaning!
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:43 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
bgm wrote:

The 737NG has a significantly higher approach speed vs other aircraft, and given the tiny landing gear and risk of tail strike, has much less room to flare on touchdown. That combined with bad weather or poor pilot skills (which seems to be commonplace in Turkey) puts this aircraft type at a much higher risk of events like these.



They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Why didn't they request an approach with headwind? Can a pilot request that or is it the airport that decides which direction a plane lands?
Also, it must have been quite clear that they were not going to stop before the end of the runway, why didn't they perform a go-around?


The crew can absolutely refuse to accept an approach/landing for winds out of limits. I've done it more than a few times. You may end up holding for a while, or if there isn't another suitable approach or runway you may have to divert to an alternate.

The policy at every airline I've flown for is once you deploy the thrust reversers, you are committed to landing. By the time you figure out you wont be able to stop on the runway remaining, it's probably too late to conduct a successful go around. I'd rather go off the end at 60 knots in full reverse, instead of 100+ knots and TOGA.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:44 pm

Quick comment.

Casualty typically include injuries along with deaths.

Fatality is just deaths.

As for the breaking of he sections.

Typically, you see these fuselage break at the section joints. This is where the fastener lines are. Sometime if you beef up the joint enough, you can drive the failure away from the joint, but not too far off.

Note that for hard vertical landing, he nose and the tail will see the most dynamic movement being cantilevered farest from the main gear. That is where most of the injury would occur. In this case the nose gear would change that dynamic a somewhat.

bt

From the photos, my comment above is off. Looks like the plane broke in the middle of the sections.
Last edited by bikerthai on Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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TK787
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:44 pm

Just listened to the one of the final conversations between the pilots and the tower. Looks like the tower were about to change from 06 operations to Runway 24 operations. This could have been the last flight landing at 06 :( when there was 22 gusting to 37K winds from 270.
 
NeperQiell
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:47 pm

The last plane to have attempted a landing a couple of minutes before the incident was another 737 operated by Turkish, which made a go around.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:50 pm

More info; looks like there were two dozen foreign nationals on board; including 4 US nationals.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:52 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Wind was 290/22 with a QDM of 059, would be 14 tail, excluding gusts.

The ILS is a 3.5 degree path, 3000 m runway, with cautions about fluctuations in the G/S down low.

Image
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buzzard302
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:54 pm

Another poor decision by pilots. Unfortunately, most accidents are due to poor training/decisions. Hope everyone comes away from this without loss of life, and more lessons are learned for the future.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:55 pm

I have two questions
1) What is the max tailwind allowed for the aircraft? I think I've read it's 10 knots, with a possible 15 know customer option, but want to confirm that.
2) Why would they be landing in that direction given the weather? From google maps, clearly they land on that end more often based on rubber on the runway, but it's also clear they use the other end sometimes, and this certainly seems like it should have been a time to be doing that.
 
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:


They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Why didn't they request an approach with headwind? Can a pilot request that or is it the airport that decides which direction a plane lands?
Also, it must have been quite clear that they were not going to stop before the end of the runway, why didn't they perform a go-around?


The crew can absolutely refuse to accept an approach/landing for winds out of limits. I've done it more than a few times. You may end up holding for a while, or if there isn't another suitable approach or runway you may have to divert to an alternate.

The policy at every airline I've flown for is once you deploy the thrust reversers, you are committed to landing. By the time you figure out you wont be able to stop on the runway remaining, it's probably too late to conduct a successful go around. I'd rather go off the end at 60 knots in full reverse, instead of 100+ knots and TOGA.


Interesting insight. I'm surprised they attempted to land in those conditions. Just a couple months ago, I was on a DL 738 landing in Denver, when the captain initiated a go around and later told us it was specifically because there was a 20kt tail wind and it's illegal at DL to land when tailwinds climb above 10kts.
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm

[quote="flight152"][quote="sonicruiser"]Pretty sure this is a writeoff[/quote]
Why this this even said? It’s not funny really; especially when there could very well be casualties.[/quote]


Probably because as horrific as loss of life is, there has already been mentioned multiple times that there is infact a VERY GOOD chance that not 1 single death has occured in this incident But god forbid there is one or multiple,, again horrific BUT any deaths or injuries will be talked about,,, and being that its an aviation forum ( or use to be ),, talking about whats happening with the aircraft itself seems 100% completely logical. :?
 
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:59 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

1-2 casualties? Were you thinking about pilots losing their jobs? If so, then yes.
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:59 pm

This is now the third runway excursion in two years and the second really worse runway excursion. The one, which has nearly ended in the Black Sea and this one now; it is and will be a miracle, that no one has be killed (Let us hope, the two pilots in critical conditions will survive). This was and is against all odds.

But with an airline with just little less than 40 B737-800NG (+ others) and three runway excursions with one type of aircraft in just two years: this incident rate is too high. It is much higher than can be expected by chance, this will have to be checked in detail and a possible general root cause has to be identified or excluded.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:00 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
2) Why would they be landing in that direction given the weather? From google maps, clearly they land on that end more often based on rubber on the runway, but it's also clear they use the other end sometimes, and this certainly seems like it should have been a time to be doing that.


ATC were in the process of doing a runway direction change as two aircraft went around due tailwind.
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:02 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
When is building a runway at the edge of a cliff ever a good idea?


To build a runway you have to find or create an area of flat land. The surrounding terrain is still going to have the same characteristics it had before, unless you decide to flatten or raise that area as well, which is very expensive and would require also purchasing that land. This is not always possible and in this case it appears that there is a road. Outside of the runway itself there normally is an area that is also kept flat, but there are limits to how much can be done. Not every airport has a lot of space or is surrounded by flat land, although of course that would be ideal. The airlines and pilots have to take into account the runway available and base their operations on that (including a safety margin).
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:02 pm

zeke wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Wind was 290/22 with a QDM of 059, would be 14 tail, excluding gusts.

The ILS is a 3.5 degree path, 3000 m runway, with cautions about fluctuations in the G/S down low.

Image


Based on the METAR you posted earlier, 290/22G37. At my airline, and the others I'm familiar with we re required to use any gusts to full value in landing distance calculations. When I plug those numbers in my landing distance calculator for the 737, I get 23 knots tailwind and 28 knots cross wind. If the winds were 270 as posted above, it's 32 knots tailwind, 18 knots cross wind. My calculator wont even generate a landing distance, because the winds are so far out of limits.

I'd imagine with that tailwind, on a 3.5% glide slope, the required descent rate would probably exceed our stabilized approach criteria as well.



zuckie13 wrote:
I have two questions
1) What is the max tailwind allowed for the aircraft? I think I've read it's 10 knots, with a possible 15 know customer option, but want to confirm that.
2) Why would they be landing in that direction given the weather? From google maps, clearly they land on that end more often based on rubber on the runway, but it's also clear they use the other end sometimes, and this certainly seems like it should have been a time to be doing that.


Thats is correct.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:03 pm

The problem isn't really landing in a tailwind. On a dry runway its fine.

The problem is landing in a tailwind on a wet runway. This could've happened even without a tailwind on a wet runway if the plane came in too fast.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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acavpics
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:12 pm

And how many times has this happened to Pegasus Airlines so far?
 
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:15 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Pretty sure this is a writeoff


Ahh, they'll turn it into a -700 model.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:16 pm

Video here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51384667

Glad there was no englufing fire.
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Flow2706
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:17 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
zeke wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
They tried to land on a wet runway, with a 20+ knot tailwind. That wouldn't be legal at my airline for a 737, I doubt it is there either.


Wind was 290/22 with a QDM of 059, would be 14 tail, excluding gusts.

The ILS is a 3.5 degree path, 3000 m runway, with cautions about fluctuations in the G/S down low.

Image


Based on the METAR you posted earlier, 290/22G37. At my airline, and the others I'm familiar with we re required to use any gusts to full value in landing distance calculations. When I plug those numbers in my landing distance calculator for the 737, I get 23 knots tailwind and 28 knots cross wind. If the winds were 270 as posted above, it's 32 knots tailwind, 18 knots cross wind. My calculator wont even generate a landing distance, because the winds are so far out of limits.

I'd imagine with that tailwind, on a 3.5% glide slope, the required descent rate would probably exceed our stabilized approach criteria as well.



zuckie13 wrote:
I have two questions
1) What is the max tailwind allowed for the aircraft? I think I've read it's 10 knots, with a possible 15 know customer option, but want to confirm that.
2) Why would they be landing in that direction given the weather? From google maps, clearly they land on that end more often based on rubber on the runway, but it's also clear they use the other end sometimes, and this certainly seems like it should have been a time to be doing that.


Thats is correct.

Assuming a wind of 290/22G37 the tailwind component is 14kts and the crosswind 29kts. I don't have access to a landing distance calculator for the 737, but for an A320 with 66t LW (MLW) with the 15kts tailwind option this landing would have been legal, even with auto brake low and assuming a wet runway (braking action good). For the aircraft certified for 10kts only this landing would not have been legal due to tailwind being out of limits. (Did a quick FlySmart calculation)
Last edited by Flow2706 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:26 pm

I am glad everyone survived.

Please do not turn this A v B, A is safer than B and all that crap, thread.

We are not children.
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:27 pm

Turkish TV just showed a video of the accident shot from a cellphone from the tarmac.
Looks like a fire ball on the left side of the plane, maybe the engine on fire, or the front gear.
EDIT: a.net member "baha" on live TV, suggest that might not be fire, but just the landing lights seem like fire from a distance on cell phone video.
And could not stop at the end of the runway and slides down the hill. Not too fast but still 60-80mph. I'll try to find a link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEJM4Hcgd3M
Last edited by TK787 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
Assuming a wind of 290/22G37 the tailwind component is 14kts and the crosswind 29kts.


Not quite sure of your math there. A 22 knot wind from 290 on a heading of 059 is a 14 knot tailwind and a 17 knot crosswind.

Crosswind can never be higher than total wind. Unless you're counting gust in the crosswind, but not the tailwind. (But then it'd be a 32 knot crosswind, not 29.)

Just correcting that because a 29 (or 32) knot crosswind is pretty significant, while a 17 knot crosswind is not really a big deal. Though I've heard different things about including gusts... where I am, we use a gust factor that's half the total gust, the thinking being that gusts are by nature temporary, so it doesn't really make sense to consider them constant winds. Your calculations will be incorrect.
Last edited by spacecadet on Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AABusDrvr
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:37 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
zeke wrote:

Wind was 290/22 with a QDM of 059, would be 14 tail, excluding gusts.

The ILS is a 3.5 degree path, 3000 m runway, with cautions about fluctuations in the G/S down low.

Image


Based on the METAR you posted earlier, 290/22G37. At my airline, and the others I'm familiar with we re required to use any gusts to full value in landing distance calculations. When I plug those numbers in my landing distance calculator for the 737, I get 23 knots tailwind and 28 knots cross wind. If the winds were 270 as posted above, it's 32 knots tailwind, 18 knots cross wind. My calculator wont even generate a landing distance, because the winds are so far out of limits.

I'd imagine with that tailwind, on a 3.5% glide slope, the required descent rate would probably exceed our stabilized approach criteria as well.



zuckie13 wrote:
I have two questions
1) What is the max tailwind allowed for the aircraft? I think I've read it's 10 knots, with a possible 15 know customer option, but want to confirm that.
2) Why would they be landing in that direction given the weather? From google maps, clearly they land on that end more often based on rubber on the runway, but it's also clear they use the other end sometimes, and this certainly seems like it should have been a time to be doing that.


Thats is correct.

Assuming a wind of 290/22G37 the tailwind component is 14kts and the crosswind 29kts. I don't have access to a landing distance calculator for the 737, but for an A320 with 66t LW (MLW) with the 15kts tailwind option this landing would have been legal, even with auto brake low and assuming a wet runway (braking action good). For the aircraft certified for 10kts only this landing would not have been legal due to tailwind being out of limits. (Did a quick FlySmart calculation)



Not including the gusts, you are correct, a 14kt tailwind. I can only speak for my shop, but we are required to use the full gust as if it were steady state wind for any inflight performance calculations. Thats also in the limitations section, but it's not stated if thats a Boeing or company limitation. IMHO, you would be crazy not to plan on the full reported gust factor in any crosswind or tailwind performance calculations.
 
devron
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:44 pm

This needs to stop. More training for crews asap and turkish airlines in particular.

Posting a link to this tread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438079
and to this one

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438549&p=21911089#p21911089

Both are about the previous runway overruns from turkish airlines.

bgm posted this below overview of TK landing /runway accidents. Pegasus also had a previous runway excursion.

http://avherald.com/img/turkish_b738_tc ... 0225_1.jpg

All these incidents have several backgrounds and causes but one really wonders if there need to be a increased focus on safety at some turkish airlines.

bgm wrote:
 
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TK787
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:50 pm

Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:53 pm

TK787 wrote:
Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA


Am I crazy for thinking the plane seems to be at a relatively low speed in this clip?
 
Kikko19
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:59 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
TK787 wrote:
Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA


Am I crazy for thinking the plane seems to be at a relatively low speed in this clip?

slow speed? maybe 60 km or even 70 km per hour. i'd say very fast. they deceleration should have been really hard for the paxes. the black boxes will tell the real data.
 
acavpics
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:03 pm

WIederling wrote:
acavpics wrote:
And how many times has this happened to Pegasus Airlines so far?


3 : Jan 2018, Jan 2020, Feb 2020 ( NG fleet : 37 )


3 within the span of 2 years.... Yeah Something is terribly wrong in Pegasus's management/safety culture.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:05 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
TK787 wrote:
Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA


Am I crazy for thinking the plane seems to be at a relatively low speed in this clip?

slow speed? maybe 60 km or even 70 km per hour. i'd say very fast. they deceleration should have been really hard for the paxes. the black boxes will tell the real data.


I’m just looking from my small phone screen currently it was definitely fast for being at that stage of the runway but didn’t seem to be braking very hard or moving too quickly. Regardless the whole story isn’t known yet so time will tell.
 
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:08 pm

TK787 wrote:
Both pilots in critical condition. Some reports suggest that in the cockpit there were one Turkish and one South Korean pilot.


I hope those pilots will recover :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

A388
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:09 pm

It takes a certain type of idiocy and incompetence to attempt a landing on a wet runway with a 14 kts + gust tailwind component, regardless of aircraft type. Sadly, but to the surprise of nobody with inside knowledge of the industry, it comes as absolutely no surprise it was PGS who displayed such a blatant disregard for even the most simple of safety precautions. Landing a 737-800 in such conditions would likely result in a Vref touching, if not exceeding, 160 kts. The level of incompetence needed to pull this is quite frankly baffling, and one wonders how those two pilots ever managed to get anywhere near the controls of an aircraft.

I'd venture the proposition PGS ought to have their AOC pulled, but seriously doubt the Turkish authorities have the testicular fortitude to effect such an action. In the absence of that, and in view of the constant stream of accidents this airline brings upon itself due to utter incompetence, they should be banned from EU airspace.

To the OP who asked if the 737 is built to break in 3 parts: No, it's not. It's simply a consequence of being certified to far lower standards than more modern types. Witness the A321 which went off-roading in Russia; fuselage still fully intact.
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Virtual737
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:10 pm

acavpics wrote:
3 within the span of 2 years.... Yeah Something is terribly wrong in Pegasus's management/safety culture.


It is interesting that the "correlation does not imply causation" brigade have not flagged that comment as they did the ones earlier concerning the 737, as it could equally apply.

Having said that, in an industry that (at least says it) has a safety first culture, the phrase should never be uttered as it is as dangerous as it is accurate when used to close a discussion.

Regardless, absolutely mindblowing (and equally welcome) that no fatalities as of yet given the damage to that aircraft.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:11 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Video here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51384667

Glad there was no englufing fire.


This footage shows the front sectioned fuselage upside down and fairly crushed. Impressive. Hopefully all the people in there will make it.
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zeke
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:11 pm

TK787 wrote:
Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA


Does that look like it bounced a little and then the nose gear collapsed before going off the runway ?
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stl07
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:15 pm

Anyone who has flown Pegasis knows that they are an accident waiting to happen. They make G4's MD-80s look good.
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stl07
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:16 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
acavpics wrote:
3 within the span of 2 years.... Yeah Something is terribly wrong in Pegasus's management/safety culture.


It is interesting that the "correlation does not imply causation" brigade have not flagged that comment as they did the ones earlier concerning the 737, as it could equally apply.

Having said that, in an industry that (at least says it) has a safety first culture, the phrase should never be uttered as it is as dangerous as it is accurate when used to close a discussion.

Regardless, absolutely mindblowing (and equally welcome) that no fatalities as of yet given the damage to that aircraft.

It's a little different this time. Pegasus has a really bad culture of safety. Now, of course the 737 max cheerleaders probably don't know that, but I'm just putting it out there.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:20 pm

Sounds like not only the crew made a poor choice, but even the tower did too. Those tail winds were no joke.

Praying all will recover.

What can be done to fix the end of that runway? Can they fill in that area so it's not such a drop off? I am looking at maps, and it looks like it could be done. At least put an additional 1/4 of a mile of dirt or something.
Last edited by F9Animal on Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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NeperQiell
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:20 pm

stl07 wrote:
Anyone who has flown Pegasis knows that they are an accident waiting to happen. They make G4's MD-80s look good.

I have personally flown them and had very pleasant flights.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:20 pm

zeke wrote:
TK787 wrote:
Here is that video of the plane trying to stop on the runway:
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA


Does that look like it bounced a little and then the nose gear collapsed before going off the runway ?


That’s probably the aircraft hitting the wall at the end of the runway.
 
marcelh
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:21 pm

acavpics wrote:
WIederling wrote:
acavpics wrote:
And how many times has this happened to Pegasus Airlines so far?


3 : Jan 2018, Jan 2020, Feb 2020 ( NG fleet : 37 )


3 within the span of 2 years.... Yeah Something is terribly wrong in Pegasus's management/safety culture.


According to airfleets the B737 fleet had already shrunk to 32, while replaced by A320. Their A320 fleet consists of 15 ceo and 28 neo.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:26 pm

stl07 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
acavpics wrote:
3 within the span of 2 years.... Yeah Something is terribly wrong in Pegasus's management/safety culture.


It is interesting that the "correlation does not imply causation" brigade have not flagged that comment as they did the ones earlier concerning the 737, as it could equally apply.

Having said that, in an industry that (at least says it) has a safety first culture, the phrase should never be uttered as it is as dangerous as it is accurate when used to close a discussion.

Regardless, absolutely mindblowing (and equally welcome) that no fatalities as of yet given the damage to that aircraft.

It's a little different this time. Pegasus has a really bad culture of safety. Now, of course the 737 max cheerleaders probably don't know that, but I'm just putting it out there.


Actually I agree with you. However we should first look for any and all ways to stop incidents like this happening rather than first looking for the one not to look at.

An example which I hope will not raise an us vs them debate...

There are 2 cars which both pass regulations for legal sale. Car X has anti-lock breaks. Car Y doesn't. A highly skilled driver can actually stop car Y in less distance than any driver can stop car X for reasons that we don't need to go in to and the manufacturer of car Y states that all drivers should be trained to that very high standard. However there have been a number of incidents of cars rear ending others at traffic lights and most of them are car Y. The main cause might well be insufficient training of the car Y drivers, but that does not mean that the manufacturers could not do something to make their cars safer in similar situations.

A casual observer says that car Y is involved in more incidents like this than car X. The car Y supporters point out that a highly skilled driver can actually stop car Y in less distance than car X and correlation does not imply causation, so it's nothing to do with the car. We should only be looking at the drivers.

How did that make cars safer?
 
F9Animal
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm

kayik wrote:
The cliff at the end of the runway is quite steep. right after the runway there is concrete bank for landing lights, followed by a road, another concrete wall, construction road, a ditch and the highway wall. Probably the plane came to an halt by the wall.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQBnUxbXsAI ... ame=medium


I just don't get why that area can't be developed further! Fill in those cliffs with something like dirt? That airport isn't very friendly for a runway overrun. This would be an area that could use the concrete arrestor system?
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litz
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:32 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Video here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51384667

Glad there was no englufing fire.


Just realized ... it's not immediately apparent from the pictures, but the nose section is upside down ...

Man there are a lot of very, very lucky people there ...

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