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Blerg
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:34 pm

How does insurance work when the plane is being written off? What do they have to pay and who do they pay to? The leasing company or...? Do they also cover medical expenses in such circumstances?
 
NonTechAvLover
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:46 pm

B777LRF wrote:
I'd venture the proposition PGS ought to have their AOC pulled, but seriously doubt the Turkish authorities have the testicular fortitude to effect such an action. In the absence of that, and in view of the constant stream of accidents this airline brings upon itself due to utter incompetence, they should be banned from EU airspace.


I am not sure that one has to rely exclusively on the kindness of Turkish testicles here. PGS flies to EU countries, EASA can ban them from flying into the EU for safety reasons (as it has done with other airlines) and I am sure that would be a very strong incentive for PGS to stop treating its planes like amusement park ride vehicles. I do not care about the plane type, I have flown PGS and my experience was positive, but this is just one too many. I hope EASA looks into this for the sake of the carrier as well as others.
 
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stl07
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:46 pm

NeperQiell wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Anyone who has flown Pegasis knows that they are an accident waiting to happen. They make G4's MD-80s look good.

I have personally flown them and had very pleasant flights.

Sure, I'm not saying they are a bad airline, just that they have a bad safety culture.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
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morrisond
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:04 pm

bgm wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
This has nothing to do with Boeing but rather safety culture and unfortunate situations. Any attempt to just blame Team B and 737 is getting old.

Hope everyone survives.


The 737NG has a significantly higher approach speed vs other aircraft, and given the tiny landing gear and risk of tail strike, has much less room to flare on touchdown. That combined with bad weather or poor pilot skills (which seems to be commonplace in Turkey) puts this aircraft type at a much higher risk of events like these.


How much higher? I think you will find it is not that significantly higher than others. This is a 738 as well - tail strike is not so big an issue.

The biggest factor will be the Tailwind - that is stupid landing with a tailwind like that in those conditions.
 
kraz911
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:05 pm

Hello all,
I truly hope that all abort this flight were not killed and hopefully not seriously injured. It must have been quite the experience for the pilots and everyone seated in the front of the aircraft going off the runway and becoming inverted. my question is that pax evacuated in the video from the port overwing emergency exits and a breach in the fuselage at the rear. Since it was landing and the doors were armed for the landing, why the port rearmost door wasn't open with the slide deployed. Was the door inop due to the severity of the damage of the post landing crash damage? Its too early to know if they landed long or too quickly. It could have been a major disaster...
 
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Carlos01
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:10 pm

According to this tweet, they are still trying to get people out of the wreckage:

https://twitter.com/delmirodebarrio/sta ... 18784?s=21

It seems it wasn’t such a clear ”everybody ok!” after all..
 
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zeke
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:22 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
That’s probably the aircraft hitting the wall at the end of the runway.


The mods deleted my post with the screen shots from the videos, looks like I was correct. They issued a NOTAM to say the runway is crap (the official ICAO term ;) )

LTFJ-A7513/19
From: 28/12/2019 08:05 UTC
To: 28/3/2020 12:00 UTC
THERE ARE SURFACE IRREGULARITIES ON RWY 06/24, DECREASING RIDE
QUALITY.
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Gingersnap
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:36 pm

I've seen a few rumblings of at least 1 deceased passenger so far.

I'll try and find a reliable source.

Edit: The Turkish Health Minister has announced the death supposedly.
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T4thH
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:06 pm

Sad to hear, that there is now one fatality. I was surprised, that there were no fatalities at the begin. If I see this wreck, only one dead is still good.
 
asuflyer
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:12 pm

The capitan was Turkish and the FO was Dutch-Indonesian. They are both severely injured.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:20 pm

zeke wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
That’s probably the aircraft hitting the wall at the end of the runway.


The mods deleted my post with the screen shots from the videos, looks like I was correct. They issued a NOTAM to say the runway is crap (the official ICAO term ;) )

LTFJ-A7513/19
From: 28/12/2019 08:05 UTC
To: 28/3/2020 12:00 UTC
THERE ARE SURFACE IRREGULARITIES ON RWY 06/24, DECREASING RIDE
QUALITY.


Boy that runway must be more than crap for that type of bouncing, sheesh.
 
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OA940
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:28 pm

Landing 2/3 down the runway with a 16 knot tailwind.... genius. Gives off Air India Express 812 vibes... too bad it cost a life
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aviatorcraig
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:34 pm

I really, really, really don't want to feed all the A vs B crap, which so detracts from A.net as I believe both companies make excellent products, but...
given those variables, Brake to Vacate would basically say "You are having a laugh mate!" Does B have any plans for a similar system?
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:01 pm

B777LRF wrote:
It takes a certain type of idiocy and incompetence to attempt a landing on a wet runway with a 14 kts + gust tailwind component, regardless of aircraft type. Sadly, but to the surprise of nobody with inside knowledge of the industry, it comes as absolutely no surprise it was PGS who displayed such a blatant disregard for even the most simple of safety precautions. Landing a 737-800 in such conditions would likely result in a Vref touching, if not exceeding, 160 kts. The level of incompetence needed to pull this is quite frankly baffling, and one wonders how those two pilots ever managed to get anywhere near the controls of an aircraft.

I'd venture the proposition PGS ought to have their AOC pulled, but seriously doubt the Turkish authorities have the testicular fortitude to effect such an action. In the absence of that, and in view of the constant stream of accidents this airline brings upon itself due to utter incompetence, they should be banned from EU airspace.

To the OP who asked if the 737 is built to break in 3 parts: No, it's not. It's simply a consequence of being certified to far lower standards than more modern types. Witness the A321 which went off-roading in Russia; fuselage still fully intact.


And you already know the G loads both the a321 and this 737 sustained to make such a claim?
 
DUSdude
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:03 pm

Blerg wrote:
How does insurance work when the plane is being written off? What do they have to pay and who do they pay to? The leasing company or...? Do they also cover medical expenses in such circumstances?


There are two types of insurance at issue here. One is hull risk insurance which insures the aircraft itself. If the plane is financed, the insurance proceeds first go to pay the balance of the debt, the remainder then goes to the legal owner, which may be a leasing company if the aircraft is leased. This is usually done on an agreed value basis. If there is any excess beyond that, that would then go to the airline. The second is liability insurance, which goes to cover any liability towards passengers and third parties who may have been injured. This will depend on the claims the injured parties will make against the airline. But liability insurance limits are usually for an amount in the hundreds of millions for a commercial airliner. That will hardly be exhausted here.
 
runway23
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:34 pm

I hope this is the crash too many that causes EASA to look into Turkish operators and their safety culture.

Seems like there is something going amiss either because pilots are discouraged to go around, attempting to land in impossible conditions, poorly trained, communicating badly or too confident.

Hopefully this is fixed before more people get injured and/or die in similar conditions.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:40 pm

Warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riQqNP2liIQ appears to be fake news, it shows TC-AMP as registration whereas TC-IZK is the aircraft in this incident.

Ref: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20200205-0
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AR385
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:46 pm

There are three dead so far.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:46 pm

runway23 wrote:
I hope this is the crash too many that causes EASA to look into Turkish operators and their safety culture.

Seems like there is something going amiss either because pilots are discouraged to go around, attempting to land in impossible conditions, poorly trained, communicating badly or too confident.

Hopefully this is fixed before more people get injured and/or die in similar conditions.


I hope that this is the crash that gets EASA to look into the number of 737 runway incidents that result in the aircraft splitting into 3 pieces and killing people.
BV
 
asdf
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 pm

bx737 wrote:
Just out of curiosity are the 737-800s designed to break at specific zones in the aircraft. There are similarities with this one, the Caribbean Airlines one in Guyana; the American Airlines one in Jamaica; Turkish Airlines Amsterdam, Lion Air in Bali. In most of these listed, casualties were very low, despite the damage


the737 all break at the same zone
but well .... design ..... not really
 
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:50 pm

Gingersnap wrote:
I've seen a few rumblings of at least 1 deceased passenger so far.

I'll try and find a reliable source.

Edit: The Turkish Health Minister has announced the death supposedly.

The BBC link earlier was updated with:

Health Minister Fahrettin Koca confirmed a Turkish citizen had died and 157 other people had been injured. He said none of the wounded people were in a critical condition.
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kayik
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:51 pm

3 deceased.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:56 pm

stl07 wrote:
NeperQiell wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Anyone who has flown Pegasis knows that they are an accident waiting to happen. They make G4's MD-80s look good.

I have personally flown them and had very pleasant flights.

Sure, I'm not saying they are a bad airline, just that they have a bad safety culture.

If they can’t guarantee safe transport, they’re a bad airline. I don’t see how you can exempt the most basic criteria when judging this airline. “Food and service was great but the passengers were incinerated in the arrival runway.” Yeah I’ll stick with BA Qantas JAL and the rest of the grown ups thanks.
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Revelation
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:02 am

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 19771.html now says:

Three people have died after a plane broke into three pieces during a rough landing at a Turkish airport.

The Pegasus Airlines aircraft skidded off the runway at Istanbul Sabiha Gokcen airport on landing, crashing into a road. Footage showed serious damage to the plane’s fuselage, which appears to be cracked in three places.

Turkey’s health minister, Fahrettin Koca, said three person had died in the incident, while 179 of the 183 passengers and crew on board were being treated in hospitals across the region.

RIP.
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asdf
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:12 am

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
It takes a certain type of idiocy and incompetence to attempt a landing on a wet runway with a 14 kts + gust tailwind component, regardless of aircraft type. Sadly, but to the surprise of nobody with inside knowledge of the industry, it comes as absolutely no surprise it was PGS who displayed such a blatant disregard for even the most simple of safety precautions. Landing a 737-800 in such conditions would likely result in a Vref touching, if not exceeding, 160 kts. The level of incompetence needed to pull this is quite frankly baffling, and one wonders how those two pilots ever managed to get anywhere near the controls of an aircraft.

I'd venture the proposition PGS ought to have their AOC pulled, but seriously doubt the Turkish authorities have the testicular fortitude to effect such an action. In the absence of that, and in view of the constant stream of accidents this airline brings upon itself due to utter incompetence, they should be banned from EU airspace.

To the OP who asked if the 737 is built to break in 3 parts: No, it's not. It's simply a consequence of being certified to far lower standards than more modern types. Witness the A321 which went off-roading in Russia; fuselage still fully intact.


And you already know the G loads both the a321 and this 737 sustained to make such a claim?


the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull
 
ozglobal
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:23 am

Here's an explanation as to why B737NG's repeatedly break into 3 pieces when they should NOT on hard landings and runway overruns from this 2010 report.

This is 10 years before the 737 MAX scandal. We all should have seen it coming...

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/pe ... 01849.html
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:28 am

Flightaware shows PC2193 was at 193mph right before touchdown, way too fast:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PGT2193

It was at 270mph at 2500 feet, way above normal also. It had to hold east of the airport, presumably b/c rain or wind.
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morrisond
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:36 am

asdf wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
It takes a certain type of idiocy and incompetence to attempt a landing on a wet runway with a 14 kts + gust tailwind component, regardless of aircraft type. Sadly, but to the surprise of nobody with inside knowledge of the industry, it comes as absolutely no surprise it was PGS who displayed such a blatant disregard for even the most simple of safety precautions. Landing a 737-800 in such conditions would likely result in a Vref touching, if not exceeding, 160 kts. The level of incompetence needed to pull this is quite frankly baffling, and one wonders how those two pilots ever managed to get anywhere near the controls of an aircraft.

I'd venture the proposition PGS ought to have their AOC pulled, but seriously doubt the Turkish authorities have the testicular fortitude to effect such an action. In the absence of that, and in view of the constant stream of accidents this airline brings upon itself due to utter incompetence, they should be banned from EU airspace.

To the OP who asked if the 737 is built to break in 3 parts: No, it's not. It's simply a consequence of being certified to far lower standards than more modern types. Witness the A321 which went off-roading in Russia; fuselage still fully intact.


And you already know the G loads both the a321 and this 737 sustained to make such a claim?


the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull


That is false - the 16G rule is in relation to the seats - it's nothing to do with the hull.

Google and you can find images of A320'S breaking into three pieces as well.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:50 am

Even if this accident has nothing to do with Boeing, I would absolutely hate to be in charge of 737 PR right now.

737's reputation is destroyed regardless of it was at fault or not. How many accidents has it been involved in the past year? I get that it is unlikely the plane was at fault but that doesn't change the fact it was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Images of a destroyed Boeing plane on TV however it happened is not a good look for Boeing, this is not something that can be spun in a good way.

I am not someone who believes in any kind of superstition but it is undeniable that anything this plane touches has had bad luck recently.

The only thing the toxic reputation of the 737 is good for is Boeing's stock price.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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zkncj
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:55 am

kraz911 wrote:
Hello all,
I truly hope that all abort this flight were not killed and hopefully not seriously injured. It must have been quite the experience for the pilots and everyone seated in the front of the aircraft going off the runway and becoming inverted. my question is that pax evacuated in the video from the port overwing emergency exits and a breach in the fuselage at the rear. Since it was landing and the doors were armed for the landing, why the port rearmost door wasn't open with the slide deployed. Was the door inop due to the severity of the damage of the post landing crash damage? Its too early to know if they landed long or too quickly. It could have been a major disaster...


It’s like due to force of the impact, it renders these doors un use able.

Bare in mind the 737 doors are an very old design, which requires allot of movement for them to move out.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:57 am

How many million safe landings have 737NGs seen?

You can bust up any plane when flown improperly. See Asiana 214,

or WN 345 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/qu ... -1.1474479

or AA 1420. https://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/03/us/9 ... storm.html

The problem here isn't the aircraft.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:02 am

I wonder if there’s a training issue for the flight crews of this airline given the string of accidents.
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CO764
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:31 am

Looks like the airport has been reopened and flights are now landing.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:35 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
How many million safe landings have 737NGs seen?

You can bust up any plane when flown improperly. See Asiana 214,

or WN 345 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/qu ... -1.1474479

or AA 1420. https://www.nytimes.com/1999/06/03/us/9 ... storm.html

The problem here isn't the aircraft.
The 777 can stay intact after doing a cartwheel but a 737 falls apart after a heavy landing and runway overrun. Something is wrong here.

The cause of the crash looks like pilot error, though.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:35 am

Yet again another 737 that breaks in the same 2 places into the same 3 pieces. Now more people are dead (not saying that the breaking specifically did cause that, but it’s highly possible).
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PlymSpotter
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:48 am

Sad as it is, I still think three dead is a minor miracle for this accident. So much for there being no further critical casualties after the first death was announced - so I'm not exactly confident this won't rise further.

And I agree that the safety culture at Pegasus and Turkish airlines as a whole needs urgent attention - one of them is going to have a major mass fatality accident soon.

morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:
Spetsnaz55 wrote:

And you already know the G loads both the a321 and this 737 sustained to make such a claim?


the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull


That is false - the 16G rule is in relation to the seats - it's nothing to do with the hull.

Google and you can find images of A320'S breaking into three pieces as well.


See I did, and I can't find those images. The nearest I came was the TACA accident where they broke it into two pieces. I can't see any other crashes as you describe - so am I missing something here... perhaps you can't direct us to those incidents you refer to?
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
maint123
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:22 am

In 2019 the number of 737s involved in mishaps seem to be pretty high. Could be a consequence of more of them flying but the number of Airbus planes in the sky are increasing at a higher rate. It seems that if you are flying a boeing , the tolerance for error is very low. Airbus neo planes have had scores of problems with mid flight engine issues- PW- in the last couple of years, but the factor of safety is higher, so no accidents.
 
Passedv1
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:24 am

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Opps


You're going to have to explain this one. O--P-P's, Are you quoting Naughty-By-Nature? if so what does that have to do with this crash?
 
danvs
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Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:26 am

Back in the 90s, I read about an emergency landing of a 737-200 with a hydraulic failure. They had to land without flaps, and the crew allegedly veered off the runway on purpose (into the grass) not to overrun it. I wonder if the outcome in this case would have been different, had the pilots decided to veer off to the right...

F9Animal wrote:
I just don't get why that area can't be developed further! Fill in those cliffs with something like dirt? That airport isn't very friendly for a runway overrun. This would be an area that could use the concrete arrestor system?

Exactly, that's what EMAS are for... Just for an example, JFK's EMAS have a length of about 117m (384 ft) each.
Sabiha Gökcen (SAW) has a 3,000 m (9,843 ft) runway. Even if SAW does not develop the area around it, it could install EMAS at both thresholds and the remaining runway would still be around 2,750 m (9,000 ft) in length, perfectly fine for an airport at an altitude of 300 ft and where virtually all commercial airplanes using it are narrowbodies (737s and A32Ss).
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:27 am

PlymSpotter wrote:
Sad as it is, I still think three dead is a minor miracle for this accident. So much for there being no further critical casualties after the first death was announced - so I'm not exactly confident this won't rise further.

And I agree that the safety culture at Pegasus and Turkish airlines as a whole needs urgent attention - one of them is going to have a major mass fatality accident soon.

morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:

the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull


That is false - the 16G rule is in relation to the seats - it's nothing to do with the hull.

Google and you can find images of A320'S breaking into three pieces as well.


See I did, and I can't find those images. The nearest I came was the TACA accident where they broke it into two pieces. I can't see any other crashes as you describe - so am I missing something here... perhaps you can't direct us to those incidents you refer to?


Nope, I haven't seen them either, but 737 break up pictures, many, many, many of those. At some point a regulator or statisticians are going to look at 737 runway incidents as a whole, there seem to be many more such incidents than with A320's. The propensity for 737 break ups is ridiculous, how much longer can it be justified to keep producing an aircraft that kills people in incidents that would have been survivable in other aircraft in the same class?
BV
 
Flow2706
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:46 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:

Based on the METAR you posted earlier, 290/22G37. At my airline, and the others I'm familiar with we re required to use any gusts to full value in landing distance calculations. When I plug those numbers in my landing distance calculator for the 737, I get 23 knots tailwind and 28 knots cross wind. If the winds were 270 as posted above, it's 32 knots tailwind, 18 knots cross wind. My calculator wont even generate a landing distance, because the winds are so far out of limits.

I'd imagine with that tailwind, on a 3.5% glide slope, the required descent rate would probably exceed our stabilized approach criteria as well.





Thats is correct.

Assuming a wind of 290/22G37 the tailwind component is 14kts and the crosswind 29kts. I don't have access to a landing distance calculator for the 737, but for an A320 with 66t LW (MLW) with the 15kts tailwind option this landing would have been legal, even with auto brake low and assuming a wet runway (braking action good). For the aircraft certified for 10kts only this landing would not have been legal due to tailwind being out of limits. (Did a quick FlySmart calculation)



Not including the gusts, you are correct, a 14kt tailwind. I can only speak for my shop, but we are required to use the full gust as if it were steady state wind for any inflight performance calculations. Thats also in the limitations section, but it's not stated if thats a Boeing or company limitation. IMHO, you would be crazy not to plan on the full reported gust factor in any crosswind or tailwind performance calculations.

I just used the values that FlySmart was putting out when entering the METAR and the last runway. It’s not a very smart decision to start that approach at all, I would also factor in the gusts (have to check later if we have a black and white policy on that in our OM later...) and not attempt that approach, however just pointing out the FlySmart calculation with gives a margin of around 100m (low autobrake).
 
SGAviation
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:05 am

Revelation wrote:
Warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riQqNP2liIQ appears to be fake news, it shows TC-AMP as registration whereas TC-IZK is the aircraft in this incident.

Ref: https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20200205-0


That is from Microsoft Flight Simulator.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:16 am

asdf wrote:
the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull


Just another example of using or manipulating data out of context.

All commercial passenger liner must meet the same ditching requirements.

9G crash load applies to all commodity on the main passenger deck. The seats have an additional 16G dynamic load applies.

Anything in the lower lobe not attached to the passenger floor beams have lower ditching load requirement. Maybe this is where the 5g came from.

The requirement for 9g is a straight ahead with perhaps a slight angle. G loads for side way ditching is lower.

I believe, if the plane happened to turned 180 degrees and crash tail first, the load requirement is even lower.

No aircraft is design to run off a cliff or hit a wall.

Any aircraft designed not to break apart in an incident like this would be too heavy to fly economically. Recall even that Asians 777 crack the fuselage when the tail hit the runway wall.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:32 am

Wow, just saw a photo of the crash site from the Independent web site. If you drive 50 different models of cars of that cliff at 60 kph, how many in those cars would survive?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:54 am

bikerthai wrote:
asdf wrote:
the A320 is a 16G hull
the 737 is a 5G hull


Just another example of using or manipulating data out of context.

All commercial passenger liner must meet the same ditching requirements.

9G crash load applies to all commodity on the main passenger deck. The seats have an additional 16G dynamic load applies.

Anything in the lower lobe not attached to the passenger floor beams have lower ditching load requirement. Maybe this is where the 5g came from.

The requirement for 9g is a straight ahead with perhaps a slight angle. G loads for side way ditching is lower.

I believe, if the plane happened to turned 180 degrees and crash tail first, the load requirement is even lower.

No aircraft is design to run off a cliff or hit a wall.

Any aircraft designed not to break apart in an incident like this would be too heavy to fly economically. Recall even that Asians 777 crack the fuselage when the tail hit the runway wall.

bt


Any aircraft would lose its back end in that kind of collision
 
Chemist
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: PC2193 runway overrun at Instanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:02 am

asdf wrote:
bx737 wrote:
Just out of curiosity are the 737-800s designed to break at specific zones in the aircraft. There are similarities with this one, the Caribbean Airlines one in Guyana; the American Airlines one in Jamaica; Turkish Airlines Amsterdam, Lion Air in Bali. In most of these listed, casualties were very low, despite the damage


the737 all break at the same zone
but well .... design ..... not really


I know we have a lot of Boeing haters on here, but every aircraft is going to have its weakest points.
This particular one apparently hit two concrete structures.
You can't compare any accident with any other one. The Airbus planes also have their weakest points and that is where they would break. Who knows what would have happened if an A320 had hit two concrete structures under the same circumstances? I don't, and I'm certain that you don't, either.
 
THY748i
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:51 am

Anyone with more insights into PGS safety culture? 3 planes in 2 years is a lot but it was 0 planes in nearly 30 years before that. While I do actually prefer TK for my flights to Turkey, PC was supposed to be the safe one, statistically speaking. Fast expansion at the cost of safety?

Edit: RIP to the deceased :(
 
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zeke
Posts: 14952
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:00 am

aviatorcraig wrote:
Brake to Vacate would basically say "You are having a laugh mate!" Does B have any plans for a similar system?


ROW/ROP are Airbus patented products that they have offered to Boeing however they have declined. Honeywell does have SmartRunway and SmartLanding that is available for the 737 however is not as effective. That is the system EK have on their 777s and told them to go around as they landed 1000 into 4100 m runway. Yes is was a deep landing, however 3100 m is more than enough room to landed a 777 even above maximum landing weight.

bikerthai wrote:
Any aircraft designed not to break apart in an incident like this would be too heavy to fly economically. Recall even that Asians 777 crack the fuselage when the tail hit the runway wall.


I agree there are some significant vertical drops here, similar drops off the runway like the AF 340 at Toronto, or the TACA A320 at Tegucigalpa demonstrate that aircraft do not need to break up. However the milder inked like AA331 in Miami or BW523 at Georgetown did result in the fuselage failing. They all seem to fail at a similar fuselage locations, I am guessing this maybe a join the barrel ?

The mods have deleted my post showing screen shots of the aircraft landing, it appeared to me to be bouncing, and the possibly sliding along its nose after a nose gear collapse before it left the runway.

Have a look at the video yourself to see
https://www.ntv.com.tr/video/turkiye/sa ... d9V58d8ZGA
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
asdf
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Pegasus Airlines Flight PC2193 Runway Overrun at Istanbul (SAW)

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:32 am

BoeingVista wrote:
Nope, I haven't seen them either, but 737 break up pictures, many, many, many of those. At some point a regulator or statisticians are going to look at 737 runway incidents as a whole, there seem to be many more such incidents than with A320's. The propensity for 737 break ups is ridiculous, how much longer can it be justified to keep producing an aircraft that kills people in incidents that would have been survivable in other aircraft in the same class?


there was nothing wrong with building those crafts in the sixties and seventies
that was the state of the art technologies at that time

what the real question is ..... is it really worth to use questionable regulations and still build them NOW?
this will push the same hull problems up in the 2060ies ....

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