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INFINITI329
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UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:22 pm

United has agreed to purchase Westwind School of Aeronautics in Phoenix, Arizona

I believe this is a step in the right direction to ensure staffing at their regional operators.

https://www.businessinsider.com/united- ... m=referral
 
toltommy
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:37 pm

But United doesn't own their regional operators... (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
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Polot
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:58 pm

toltommy wrote:
But United doesn't own their regional operators... (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

Not directly, but they effectively control ExpressJet via ManaAir
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:47 pm

I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:33 am

maybe there is some analogy to doctors in that the supply has been artificially constrained with silly regulatory mechanisms that are bought and paid for by the professionals in those fields. In airline pilots case, the 1500 hour rule has no safety rationale. That is the only reason there is any difficulty hiring legal first officers to pilot RJs. They are pretty good jobs that would not go unfilled. Medicine is a similar situation really. Very few jobs including doctorate level jobs really need to pay over 250k cash. When they do, it is either a Special talent or a special license situation (a racket) for the most part.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:42 am

LCDFlight wrote:
maybe there is some analogy to doctors in that the supply has been artificially constrained with silly regulatory mechanisms that are bought and paid for by the professionals in those fields. In airline pilots case, the 1500 hour rule has no safety rationale. That is the only reason there is any difficulty hiring legal first officers to pilot RJs. They are pretty good jobs that would not go unfilled. Medicine is a similar situation really. Very few jobs including doctorate level jobs really need to pay over 250k cash. When they do, it is either a Special talent or a special license situation (a racket) for the most part.


Would you have a surgeon who had 9 month’s experience operating on your spine where a mistake will leave you dead on the table? I didn’t think so
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:52 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:01 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Would you have a surgeon who had 9 month’s experience operating on your spine where a mistake will leave you dead on the table? I didn’t think so


Well that depends, what has more margin for error, flying a plane or spinal surgery?
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
alasizon
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:07 am

SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


The problem is not getting them into school, its any combined student debt of flight school plus the bachelors (if they have one) and being able to afford living as a CFI/early RJ pilot. Those who always had being a pilot as a dream job will find a way but many simply give up and drop out.

There isn't a shortage of people wanting to be pilots, its a shortage of those being able to afford it. Personally I had to stop at about 700 hours because it just didn't make financial sense to keep continuing and I have plenty of co-workers that are in the same boat.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
CWL757
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:11 am

A C172 in the new UA Livery wouldn’t go amiss :D
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:14 am

alasizon wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


The problem is not getting them into school, its any combined student debt of flight school plus the bachelors (if they have one) and being able to afford living as a CFI/early RJ pilot. Those who always had being a pilot as a dream job will find a way but many simply give up and drop out.

There isn't a shortage of people wanting to be pilots, its a shortage of those being able to afford it. Personally I had to stop at about 700 hours because it just didn't make financial sense to keep continuing and I have plenty of co-workers that are in the same boat.


I agree that's why companies are dumping money into streamlining the process from zero to hero with a defined path to a major so it makes flight school more financially sensible. If this is anything like the previous Aviate at ATCA Goodyear, these pilots will go directly to United and not have to deal with the regional life.

I know that this specific program is designed to increase diversity in the pilot ranks so I could see some sort of financial aid becoming a reality for the select few hired into the program.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:19 am

toltommy wrote:
But United doesn't own their regional operators... (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
E170

you're right. United only owned ZW (Air Wisconsin) which they bought then "Gutted" Getting rid of the BAE146, and the BAE ATP, Air Wiskey didn't make it any easier by taunting United saying they were going to leave their agreement with United to go fly with American, Off of United's Terminal At ORD no less.
United retaliated pretty Harshly by buying ZW and cutting them up like swiss cheese and they still haven't really let them back into the fold as the majority if not all of the E170 and E175's are flown by other regionals Under the UAX banner when ZW was the original UAX Airline.
 
KFTG
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:21 am

If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:34 am

SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


Let’s not kid ourselves with piloting being an attractive career field. Unless you live in base, pilots are often away from home for a few days at a time, more with certain ops. It’s not the most conducive towards building a family.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:45 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


Let’s not kid ourselves with piloting being an attractive career field. Unless you live in base, pilots are often away from home for a few days at a time, more with certain ops. It’s not the most conducive towards building a family.


I think that is solely your opinion, I haven't found anyone in person that believes it isn't an attractive career field. We can debate the family aspects of being gone until our faces are blue but as someone that is involved and works at the school that does the training for most of these American zero to hero program, these spots are highly highly highly competitive.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
maybe there is some analogy to doctors in that the supply has been artificially constrained with silly regulatory mechanisms that are bought and paid for by the professionals in those fields. In airline pilots case, the 1500 hour rule has no safety rationale. That is the only reason there is any difficulty hiring legal first officers to pilot RJs. They are pretty good jobs that would not go unfilled. Medicine is a similar situation really. Very few jobs including doctorate level jobs really need to pay over 250k cash. When they do, it is either a Special talent or a special license situation (a racket) for the most part.


Would you have a surgeon who had 9 month’s experience operating on your spine where a mistake will leave you dead on the table? I didn’t think so


These guys with 'Blakely had logged a total of 11,172 flight hours, including 1,252 hours on the Boeing 767, Aska had logged 5,073 flight hours with 520 of them on the Boeing 767 ', shouldn't have been flying without more training and I wouldn't want to be on a aircraft with, let alone have them perform spinal surgery, versus a pilot with 1499 hours who shows good piloting skills, which I would take. Even 500 hours would do, if the guy had good piloting skills......

https://time.com/5753435/amazon-atlas-air-cargo-crash/
You are here.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:51 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


Let’s not kid ourselves with piloting being an attractive career field. Unless you live in base, pilots are often away from home for a few days at a time, more with certain ops. It’s not the most conducive towards building a family.


Being a pilot is great for raising a family. I’m home 16-17 days a month. That’s home not doing any work whatsoever. Even when I was doing domestic flying I was home 14-15 dats a month. 4 - 4 day trips equals 12 nights away from home and only 8 full day’s. I have never missed an important event with my kids.
 
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Acey559
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:19 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:

Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


Let’s not kid ourselves with piloting being an attractive career field. Unless you live in base, pilots are often away from home for a few days at a time, more with certain ops. It’s not the most conducive towards building a family.


Being a pilot is great for raising a family. I’m home 16-17 days a month. That’s home not doing any work whatsoever. Even when I was doing domestic flying I was home 14-15 dats a month. 4 - 4 day trips equals 12 nights away from home and only 8 full day’s. I have never missed an important event with my kids.


Thank you! I bet most/all of our 1K or GS passengers are on the road more than we are but people don’t tend to bat an eye at that. Seems to me that the “experts” here are always the ones who aren’t even in the industry or doing the job.

I flew for an ACMI before United and the 16 days away was difficult but doable. I was able to have 12-14 uninterrupted days at home to fully devote to my family. At UA I am rarely gone more than 4 days and again, my time at home is mine, not the company’s. Plus my wife and kids sometimes visit on layovers, especially the good ones like LIH, etc. I’d recommend this career to anyone. It’s not perfect, but nothing is. I love my job and my wife and I both feel very fortunate with our situation.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:02 am

A fair point raised by others, and I withdraw my argument. But I rest my case that the personal commitment and the strains being a commercial pilot can place on one's relations are much higher than your typical worker. And that for various reasons, without intervention, less and less young people are willing to enter the cockpit.
 
slider
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:15 pm

KFTG wrote:
If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.


All airlines have been, including the RAA pretty intently. And numerous flight schools and universities.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:50 pm

I know this thread is about the UA flight school, but the military is a way to get your requirements for free (actually, you get paid,) and current military aviators are leaving for the airlines in droves.

A lot of motivated young people are skipping the tens of thousands of dollars of debt and tough lifestyle for the military (which is tough in its own sense but they at least have a lot more exciting flying)
 
N353SK
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:53 pm

KFTG wrote:
If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.



Taking over a flight school shows that they are very serious about this issue. Currently, legacy airlines are hiring pilots with either high-quality military flight training or thousands of hours of civilian flight time. Either way, a proven track record. A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.
 
KFTG
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:22 pm

N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?
 
highflier92660
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:26 pm

Hasn't Lufthansa had a flight school for years? This is a smart decision on the part of United . But for the students dreaming of boring holes in the skies, an aviation career has to be a calculated and sobering life-choice. Frequently when I talk to college-age people, they believe they will navigate through flight training and regional airline flying with a minimum of turbulence, magically being hired-on to a legacy carrier by age 25. Then the real world intervenes.
 
bigb
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:41 pm

KFTG wrote:
N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:13 pm

The medical school model of living off student loans (and, to a lesser degree the law school model) works because lenders are pretty much assured the student will in very short order draw a healthy salary and be able to begin paying down the debt pretty quickly. And while flight school isn't as costly as medical school, the guarantee of near-immediate six figure incomes isn't there. And not just anyone can decide to get free flight training in the military.
 
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Acey559
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:20 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
A fair point raised by others, and I withdraw my argument. But I rest my case that the personal commitment and the strains being a commercial pilot can place on one's relations are much higher than your typical worker. And that for various reasons, without intervention, less and less young people are willing to enter the cockpit.


You’re absolutely correct about the commitment and the career isn’t for everyone. It works for me and many others but not so for others. I’m fortunate to have a very understanding and supportive wife and that’s huge. I hope this program pans out and is worth the company’s investment. I have flown with a few captains that have been paired with some of the folks from the old CFI to UA program and many found challenges with that way of doing things. But being able to control the product from beginning to end will hopefully provide us with competent aviators and enjoyable coworkers.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
OB1504
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:48 pm

bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....


The military lets pilots fly fighters and bombers with much less than 1,500 hours of experience. The difference is the quality of training.

Remember how many flight hours the Colgan crew had?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6113
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:35 pm

OB1504 wrote:
bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....


The military lets pilots fly fighters and bombers with much less than 1,500 hours of experience. The difference is the quality of training.

Remember how many flight hours the Colgan crew had?


IIRC, one of the Somali C-5 tank lifts after the Blackhawk Down episode was captained out of DOV with three pilots with a total of about 3,000 hours between them. Four air refuelings, one of which they put together enroute from the third refueling, plain old triple INS for navigation, engines running off-load in a hot combat zone, depart for Cairo West in all one duty period. There’s no airline flight that would compare in difficulty, complexity and hand flying skills.

It can be done, but requires lots of training and commitment to excellence
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5186
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:17 pm

bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....


Why does everyone seem to assume it's 1500 or 250? To that end, if 1500 really is the magic number, why are regionals allowed to hire graduates of certain programs at 1000 or 1250 (depending on degree)? That to me has always been an acknowledgement that training > time.

slider wrote:
KFTG wrote:
If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.


All airlines have been, including the RAA pretty intently. And numerous flight schools and universities.


All Chuck Schumer would need to do to stop it dead in its tracks would be to drag the Colgan families out in front of a camera again.
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bigb
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:33 pm

OB1504 wrote:
bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....


The military lets pilots fly fighters and bombers with much less than 1,500 hours of experience. The difference is the quality of training.

Remember how many flight hours the Colgan crew had?


No comparison, the military has much tighter training standards starting out from Zero vs Civilian trainee pilot.
 
N353SK
Posts: 1021
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:46 am

KFTG wrote:
N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. I agree completely that the American legacy airlines’ ability today to hire pilots who have either proven themselves over thousands of hours of part 121 time or received top notch military flight training is the best answer. However, we cannot ignore the fact that going forward there may not be an adequate supply of hireable applicants with the quality resumes to which legacy airlines are accustomed.
 
Passedv1
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:58 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater airliners and/or full automation before he/she ages out at 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program will end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associate's degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.


Schools are packed with new kids wanting to become pilots or career changers that are trying to get in the game along with FAA examiners being backed up for months in some places in order to get a checkride done. It is an attractive career field (just look on Twitter with the reaction to Pilot Pete) and with the streamlining of the process from 0 hours to making 200k-400k a year at United , it'll be a very easy sell to college-educated kids that have iffy career prospects with whatever their bachelors are in.

The programs for the other majors have been spooling up with sub 15% percent acceptance rate because of the thousands of apps they get and that's just for a blue ULCC carrier.


Let’s not kid ourselves with piloting being an attractive career field. Unless you live in base, pilots are often away from home for a few days at a time, more with certain ops. It’s not the most conducive to building a family.


Sorry, but there are only a handful of career fields that are even comparable to a major airline pilot to take care of a family and still have the luxury of working for somebody else so that your time off is really your time off and the big problems that crop up day to day are not your problem.

Not that money is everything, but it sure helps a lot in taking care of a family. $300k for a Captain and $150k for a First Officer is typical for a US medium carrier and up. Nobody is paying you that outside of being a pilot/doctor unless you are grinding 60-90 hours a week and expected to be a phone call away and reply to e-mails practically immediately. Now that I am older and know a lot more professionals, If Iifestyle was #1 I should have considered being a plastic surgeon, dermatologist, or dentist, but I was never good in Biology and I get squeamish with bodily fluids.

If you're a young person contemplating this career, just consider that these ed-loan numbers look huge but 100K to track down a 7 or 8 million dollar career is worth it. Much more worth it then people paying similar money to be an attorney or a chef. Just keep grinding and stay out of trouble. You'll get there one day.
 
toltommy
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:06 am

Polot wrote:
Not directly, but they effectively control ExpressJet via ManaAir


Your sarcasm detector has been MEL'd....
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KFTG
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:05 am

bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
N353SK wrote:
A 1,500 hour pilot is still very inexperienced. United is demonstrating that they want their future pilots trained their way, the right way, from day one since someday soon there won’t be a lot of applicants left with 5,000+ hours of experience.

You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....

I noticed you didn’t answer my question at all.
 
bigb
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:10 am

KFTG wrote:
bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....

I noticed you didn’t answer my question at all.

Sorry, been a busy day trying to commute with the weather the east coast. They had quite a bit of hours quite frankly. I would like to add the fact that the Captain had multiple training failures that Colgan swept under the rug and both crew members were fatigued hence our Far 117 rules now.
 
KFTG
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:22 am

While we’re on the subject, how many hours did the Atlas F/O have?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:23 am

At least 1500, but I think was in the 6,000 range. But, multiple busts, terminations for cause and failure to progress in training. Plus, apparently, the captain wasn’t the strongest either, as he had some difficulty in upgrading, but overcame that.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:43 pm

Just announced Wednesday, Western Michigan University is teaming up with United to fast-track pilot careers: WMU's College of Aviation is located W K Kellogg Airport (Battle Creek, MI- BTL)
https://wwmt.com/news/local/wmu-teams-u ... ot-careers

Delta has had a similar arrangement with WMU since 2018:
https://wmich.edu/news/2018/07/47954
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 317
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:28 am

Passedv1 wrote:
If you're a young person contemplating this career, just consider that these ed-loan numbers look huge but 100K to track down a 7 or 8 million dollar career is worth it. Much more worth it then people paying similar money to be an attorney or a chef. Just keep grinding and stay out of trouble. You'll get there one day.


Also keep in mind that the next time there's a 9/11 type event or the economy takes a fart, you could be out on your ass with a six figure lifestyle and the only thing you know how to do is fly a plane. I highly recommend getting a degree in anything other than professional aviation and having a side gig that can support you if you need it to.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:10 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
I still question the realism of the so called “pilot shortage” that every airline and flight school in the USA is blathering on about. Other fields like healthcare have so called shortages in the amount of qualified doctors and nurses, but realistically the openings are only for bottom of the barrel institutions that most will end up gladly leaving after 2-3 years at most. Maybe its the same?

Regardless, if the shortage is REAL, then I doubt that young Americans will provide enough feed. Flying isn’t glamorous and isn’t a dream job to today’s youth as it once was for generations past. I would take pause at telling a 17 year old to start working on his/her ratings to become a career pilot, as I’m pretty sure he/she will be furloughed by 1 seater I've hadand/or full automation before he/she ages out ain the wingst 65 (assuming he/she can hold an ATP medical)

Plus I’m pretty sure that this program wiland operating philosophiesl end up costing a student almost 100K after cost of living. As they’re billing this a Zero hours -> ATP ready to fly for a regional, you’ll probably need an associates degree to be considered, plus you’ll end up getting a bachelors while at the regional, since all majors mandate a BSc/BA.

I suspect that the supply of US Military Pilots could be getting Thin at some point ad if United Want's pilots? They'll have to start training them in the way they want them to operate by having United Approved procedures and operating Philosophies from Ab Inito to 777. It's unrealistic to think United will always have pilots in the wings unless they want to train them because over the years I've seen Pilots who didn't want to follow the line and were let go. I've talked to pilots who had their OWN Ideas about how we did things and thought thety could do as they pleased, Which wasn't so... I've had crews that called me for help then fought me at every turn, Including Demanding I sign a maintenance release for airplanes so they could get home when they were the ones reporting the Discrepency I had to take the airplane out of service FOR.. So? If United Trains them the way they want them to operate?? Then they'll have troops who operate their plan... It's done that way in every other department. Why not Flight ops? People come to United with a wealth of Experiences But the operative word is Experiences. Ab Inito Pilots might come with little or No Experience, But? It the training is there? Then you get them in the Line much Quicker and already cool with he process. there is no room for a Maverick flying passengers.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:18 am

The 1500 hour rule is a good rule because it almost necessitates you holding aviation employment as a pilot prior to flying for the airlines. 135, 91, banner towing, instructing all teach valuable things about how work and flying mix.

Prior to the 1500 hour rule, we had kids with 250hrs of mom and dad's money getting their first job of any kind ever as an airline pilot. That was a bad recipe.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:01 am

KFTG wrote:
If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.

United is in no position to Face off with the FAA nor the DOT , And Neither would ALPA even go to bat for them as this could cut their Throats.
Look at what happened to the 737Max.
Those African Captains has pretty low time relative to any USA Captain, Do you think t was any wonder why the ICAO had to appeal directly to President Trump to get him to Ground all the USA 737 MAX airplanes? Granted Boeing "Screwed the Pooch" with that stall system that was half baked and REALLY half Assed. But they would have had to install new operating patches anyway. Now? They're doing it under Duress. But the Experience and training of the US Pilots precluded anyone in the USA Augering into the ground. So I attribute this to Training! No USA Arline can scrimp on Maintenance training nor Flight training as either one could get a bunch of folks Killed. Boeing has had a couple of shortcomings before. Things that seemed like a good Idea but later turned out to be really bad so the President was right in siding with EASA and ICAO over Boeing. Maybe Boeing will condu0 better design reviews in the future,, But United, American , Delta and Southwest being he 4 largest USA Majors? May all have to look out for their Futures and Having pilots? Is one of them
Colleges and Business Schools are full of hired Guns. Tech schools and Flying Schools? Not so much. I know it seems to some like United might be going after Minorites and Womes but? I think United is in the market for the Best they can get and Race? Really ain't important. In coming years? They'll need the people who can and are willing to hang in there. I'm Black and I KNEW good ad damn well I was in the right place at United. I was paid well and always had a chance to learn. Yeah I worked Crappy hours and a LOT of Weekends and Holidays but 0ade Really good money and I traveled my ass off! Hell! I've been Drunk in places men only DREAM about! I put my kids through college and didn't have to borrow a Nickel to I finally fgah working 4 years on Midnights and 13 years on sing shift, then 17 years working Rotating shifts? It was worth it! For Me and My family. My biggest complaint? I sleep at Odd Hours and eat at odd hours. I finally got to see my second full season of NFL football this past season. I would say? It's all been worth it! But after 44 years total in commercial Aviation? I can't complain bout much...
 
KFTG
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:49 am

strfyr51 wrote:
United is in no position to Face off with the FAA nor the DOT

If you think United (or any other major US carrier, for that matter) does not have the ability to lobby lawmakers to enact change, you are grossly mistaken.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2673
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:46 am

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Passedv1 wrote:
If you're a young person contemplating this career, just consider that these ed-loan numbers look huge but 100K to track down a 7 or 8 million dollar career is worth it. Much more worth it then people paying similar money to be an attorney or a chef. Just keep grinding and stay out of trouble. You'll get there one day.


Also keep in mind that the next time there's a 9/11 type event or the economy takes a fart, you could be out on your ass with a six figure lifestyle and the only thing you know how to do is fly a plane. I highly recommend getting a degree in anything other than professional aviation and having a side gig that can support you if you need it to.



Which is exactly what I would tell my kids too. Aviation (Whether Flight Ops, Engineering, or a combination) is great, and no doubt, will drop its share of panties wherever you go. But that is only good for about ten years or so in the best of circumstances. After a while, the hours and relatively low pay (400/a may look nice, but for the skill set and medical requirements, it really is not exceptional) add up. I used to think it was awesome everyday. Now, the best I can muster is being proud of my patents... I have been in about fifteen years now, and am actively transiting out. My plan is to be all the way done by Nov of 2021.

It is definitely important to have more skills than that.

strfyr51 wrote:
I've been Drunk in places men only DREAM about!


You have been intoxicated in Bridgette Fonda? I am impressed! :duck:
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:43 am

KFTG wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
United is in no position to Face off with the FAA nor the DOT

If you think United (or any other major US carrier, for that matter) does not have the ability to lobby lawmakers to enact change, you are grossly mistaken.


Well If that was the Case? Then why hasn't American, Delta or Southwest already done it? I think United might NOT want to Piss off ALPA. They've got prsce with them now for the longest time since 1984 that I know of, Why then would they Rock the Boat when tgere is no real impending doom the befall them? Right now? They can GET pilots.
But who is to say what the case will be down the Road? Because United want's A FLIGHT SCHOOL? Does NOT mean that every student Trained there will become a United Pilot now does it? obviously you weren't there for the ALPA strike in 1985 as the ill will lasted for YEARS after the strike and forced out more than ONE CEO!
Trying to work with Surly Pilots might not be an Issue for you, But it is damn sure an issue for the Maintenance and operations guys who have to work with them when they're hacked off as they can and will make your work life MISERABLE !!
Might not seem like much to you from your arm chair, But having worked in Maintenance control through the Strike AND Bankruptcy? I'd rather have the Harmony ..
United is doing this a is and I'm Pretty sure UA-ALPA is on Board with it as the guys coming down the pipeline? Will be trained to operate the way United and ALPA want them to, And they very well might have access to DEN-TK the United pilot training center if they're promising candidates, Nothing wrong with that..
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4993
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:55 am

KFTG wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
United is in no position to Face off with the FAA nor the DOT

If you think United (or any other major US carrier, for that matter) does not have the ability to lobby lawmakers to enact change, you are grossly mistaken.

Since the grounding was a presidential Decree? Do you really think the President would go back on his secretary of Transportation and the FAA to break them down? For united or Anybody Else? Elaine Chow is the Sec of Transportation. United is Strong, But I DOUBT that Strong.. Especially since they'll get pilots and have announced a Vehicle by which to do so..
 
B777LRF
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:38 am

Just about every single new-hire FO in EASA land has around 250 hours TT before strapping themselves into the sharp end of a 737 or A320. Statistically speaking, then, it makes absolutely sod-all difference and just goes to prove the FAA 1500 hour rule is nothing but window dressing.

LH and KL have operated their own flight schools for decades, taking highly motivated and skilled guys and girls and and providing them what is among the best training programs in the world. After that they're hired onto the fleet with around 250 hours. Remind us, if you please, about the number of accidents that has befallen LH and KL over the years, and how many of them involved crews with less than 1.500 hours. I'll spare you the effort; the answer is zero.

Logging 1.250 hours bashing around the circuits in a C-172 does not make you and more or less ready for the airlines. It's the initial training up to the 250 hours that counts, all the rest has basically zero value. Let's not pretend the introduction of that rule was anything but an opportunity for imbecilic politicians to do a bit of grandstanding, attempting to appease a voter base who seems to struggle with IQ's above room temperature numbers.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 148
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Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:34 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Just about every single new-hire FO in EASA land has around 250 hours TT before strapping themselves into the sharp end of a 737 or A320. Statistically speaking, then, it makes absolutely sod-all difference and just goes to prove the FAA 1500 hour rule is nothing but window dressing.

LH and KL have operated their own flight schools for decades, taking highly motivated and skilled guys and girls and and providing them what is among the best training programs in the world. After that they're hired onto the fleet with around 250 hours. Remind us, if you please, about the number of accidents that has befallen LH and KL over the years, and how many of them involved crews with less than 1.500 hours. I'll spare you the effort; the answer is zero.

Logging 1.250 hours bashing around the circuits in a C-172 does not make you and more or less ready for the airlines. It's the initial training up to the 250 hours that counts, all the rest has basically zero value. Let's not pretend the introduction of that rule was anything but an opportunity for imbecilic politicians to do a bit of grandstanding, attempting to appease a voter base who seems to struggle with IQ's above room temperature numbers.


Any honest effort to change it will easily be defeated in the court of public opinion and then die in the crib in government. All the unions have to do is stick a famous pilot like Captain Sully (who is an outspoken defender of the 1500TT rule and calls the 250TT setup in EASA land “insane”) in front of the cameras of the major cable and traditional TV news networks.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:07 am

B777LRF wrote:
Just about every single new-hire FO in EASA land has around 250 hours TT before strapping themselves into the sharp end of a 737 or A320. Statistically speaking, then, it makes absolutely sod-all difference and just goes to prove the FAA 1500 hour rule is nothing but window dressing.


I flew a jet at 250hrs in the US, and it was frankly dangerous as hell. You have no situational awareness at that experience level and are of little to no assistance to the captain in an emergency.

The 1500hrs rule creates a hard line airlines cannot cross. History tells us the airlines will stop at nothing to make an extra dollar, even dead bodies.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos