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Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:11 am

OB1504 wrote:
bigb wrote:
KFTG wrote:
You must own stock in a flight school or something. Tell me, what was the total number of hours in the cockpit of OZ214 when it was barrel rolling in the grass at SFO? Or perhaps the total number of hours in the cockpit of AF447 when it impacted the ocean belly first?


OZ214 was clauses by the lack of CRM in the Asian airline culture to bring up issue or question the Captain. Pretty sure there was a check airman onboard he didn’t even say a single thing... That’s something you don’t find in the US flight deck CRM culture.

AF447 was just the FO bad reaction to keep pulling g the nose up in a stalled situation (wrong reaction to stalled situation). That might be a bad training philosophy that the FO picked up on.

1500 hours is a good number before stepping into the in the flight deck. Learning to fly a jet is a handful . 1500 rule, gives pilots a chance to gain experience in areas such as decision making, CRM, IFR operations. All skill sets that aren’t developed at 250 hours....


The military lets pilots fly fighters and bombers with much less than 1,500 hours of experience. The difference is the quality of training.

Remember how many flight hours the Colgan crew had?


The Colgan crew was hired into the airline environment at 250hrs. When you are building your time, you are really conditioning your reactions to airplane energy states. By entering the airline environment early (autopilot everywhere, going fast, IMC, heavy turbulence, night, complex mechanical problems) your energy state awareness and reactions are poorly trained.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2223
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:15 am

B777LRF wrote:
Just about every single new-hire FO in EASA land has around 250 hours TT before strapping themselves into the sharp end of a 737 or A320. Statistically speaking, then, it makes absolutely sod-all difference and just goes to prove the FAA 1500 hour rule is nothing but window dressing.

LH and KL have operated their own flight schools for decades, taking highly motivated and skilled guys and girls and and providing them what is among the best training programs in the world. After that they're hired onto the fleet with around 250 hours. Remind us, if you please, about the number of accidents that has befallen LH and KL over the years, and how many of them involved crews with less than 1.500 hours. I'll spare you the effort; the answer is zero.

Logging 1.250 hours bashing around the circuits in a C-172 does not make you and more or less ready for the airlines. It's the initial training up to the 250 hours that counts, all the rest has basically zero value. Let's not pretend the introduction of that rule was anything but an opportunity for imbecilic politicians to do a bit of grandstanding, attempting to appease a voter base who seems to struggle with IQ's above room temperature numbers.


Go to PPRUNE and ask the captains of KLM and LH that have to fly with the 250hr wonders what it's like. Their first hand experience doesn't match your narrative.

Also 250hr pilots have insanely high failure rates in new hire airline training (north of 50% is not unusual). In Europe this is no sweat, as jobs are crap and the pilots are forced to pay for their own type ratings, in the US the airlines foot the bill for that and the expense adds up.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3565
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The Colgan crew was hired into the airline environment at 250hrs. When you are building your time, you are really conditioning your reactions to airplane energy states. By entering the airline environment early (autopilot everywhere, going fast, IMC, heavy turbulence, night, complex mechanical problems) your energy state awareness and reactions are poorly trained.


Couple things here. First, you're not getting any actual training from 250 to 1500 hours. By then you have your certs and you're doing whatever you need to on your own to get to 1500 hours. You are just gaining experience. That's worth something, but it is not "training". Your training stays exactly the same over that time, and in fact you probably forget whatever training you're not actually specializing in to gain your hours. For example, if you are building time as a single engine CFI, you are going to forget a lot of your multi-engine training by the 1500 hour mark. Ditto for instrument training (vs. building time VFR), automation training (vs. hand flying), etc.

Second, the experience you're gaining is most likely going to be in the same type of plane you trained in, which will probably not have autopilot or even be a complex airplane with landing gear. This does depend on how you trained to begin with and what you end up doing to build your hours, but that just points out how poorly-considered the 1500 hour requirement is. Someone may come out of that with 1500 hours of complex, multi-engine, autopilot experience flying into Class B airports, while someone else may come out of it with 1500 hours of single engine, non-complex, 100% hand-flown experience flying into untowered Class E airports. The former may have some relevance to airline flying; the latter will not. Both will probably pass an ATP, but the latter has probably spent about 1250 hours doing busywork that has no relation to what he/she will be doing at an airline.

I'm not saying we should kill the reg and take pilots at 250 hours. What I am saying is that an extra 1250 hours hand-flying a single engine Cessna - which is all that the regs require - is not going to prepare you at all for flying an airliner. Taking pilots at 500 hours, if that second 250 hours was spent on actual training that's relevant for airline flying, would be safer and would help alleviate the pilot shortage, which has the potential in itself for making flying less safe by forcing airlines to take even the least qualified, most poorly performing pilots. Remove some of the barriers of entry and you may make the pilot profession more competitive again, so that only the best need be considered by the airlines.

This isn't 1960 and the industry isn't small enough anymore to be able to pick and choose its pilots. At the same time, the requirements have ballooned to where almost nobody can afford to become a pilot anymore, despite those requirements having nothing much to do with flying for the airlines. The question is how can you best ensure safety while also ensuring a steady supply of well-trained pilots? The current system is not doing it. At some point you're going to see an airline accident caused by a new-hire pilot with 1500 hours of single-engine flying who failed 5 checkrides over his training period but who the airline hired because they were just desperate for pilots, and then this debate's going to take on more urgency.
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B-HOP
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 8:09 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:08 pm

Apart from Europe, most Asian operators have young man/woman flying at the sharp end at 250 hours, many on structured program, with multiple interviews and test before getting in, China takes staggering number of 250 hours every year and on a number of hours basis, are very safe, although they have significant, close to insane restriction on giving the poor FO a sector (weather etc) and severe punishment for any deficiencies. You also have KA, CX, SQ, MH etc train based on the old UK CAA syllabus with tight scrutiny from the operator throughout the course, with those whom have no potential removed, again, quite different from one you paid for the course at your own pace, they even have restrictions from those who acquired their license and making converting their license from non-approved schools/course difficult. CX, QF, KL, NZ, PR etc uses fresh 250hours pilots as non-take off/landing relief pilots, to get them know the system first, those who fail monthly sims would be asked to leave. Taiwan have quite a few young man/woman who acquired their license, mainly in US, but were simply un-employable in the cockpit, CI, BR et al simply prefers either cadets under their own watch or from candidates with good reports from good schools. Those in Asia who passed these huddles are reasonably successful in their local carrier's cockpit.
Easyjet, with a huge 250 hour pilot population, managed reasonably well, in most other parts of the world, GA are simply not big enough to absorb everyone to do their 1500 hours internship. UK's old system 'self improver route' allows CPL holders to work towards 700 hours doing instructing, banner towing etc but they follows the JAA system now

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KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:19 am

How soon will United pull the plug on this flight school.

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation fellows.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
mcdu
Posts: 1625
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:17 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
How soon will United pull the plug on this flight school.

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation fellows.


It would greatly depend on the long term effects of the current crisis. Airlines will still need pilots and the fact it still takes years to get to the qualification level needed to join a major carrier the flight school is a good hedge on the future.

The world is clamoring for a vaccine to Coved19 yet we have vaccines for measles that kills larger numbers and a mass of people that don’t want to risk taking a vaccine for that illness. Coved is not cancer. It is not a death sentence. Hopefully there will be some rationalized thinking on this matter and we can move on to the next crisis.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8020
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:38 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
How soon will United pull the plug on this flight school.

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation fellows.


Have a look at the schedule of mandatory pilot retirements: https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... d_airlines

If UA sees a future where it needs 3,000 fewer pilots than it has today they'd better be prepping the Chapter 11 filing.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 147
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:23 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
How soon will United pull the plug on this flight school.

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation fellows.


It takes the better part of 2 years, often times more than that to get an eligible person off the street and into the right seat of a regional. Even with it being brought in house (the extent is still TBD), I doubt that someone starting in UA's program on day one will sit in a mainline aircraft until the late part of the decade. However any hopeful airline pilot should take pause - a career changer should examine other avenues, a youth should probably get a bachelors and experience in a wholly unrelated field.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Tue May 05, 2020 11:32 pm

As RJ pilots have transitioned thru the regionals we have seen many instances, particularly on the 737-900s, where they never adapted proficiently to swept wing aircraft. Here’s a newbie scenario: a -900 6 miles from the runway in a crosswind with the controls all crossed up, but the nose is darn sure lined up with the runway just like they were taught on a PA28. That’s how tail strikes occur. Scenario 2, same scenario, visual, and a “duck under” the vasi at 400 AGL... now the a/c floats past the touchdown zone with the extra energy; not good (27R at ORD comes to mind)... at any rate new hires at the majors need time in the forgiving smaller RJs to progress to the majors. Buying a flight school was therefore a social issue and not a qualified pilot source issue. Have no idea what that fiasco cost...
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4975
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed May 06, 2020 1:52 am

KFTG wrote:
If they were serious about this issue, they’d be lobbying Congress to do away with the 1500 hour rule.

that would stir up REAL bad blood between United and ALPA. Nobody would benefit!
 
trueblew
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: UA is acquiring a flight school

Wed May 06, 2020 5:42 am

I'd wager this won't be an issue for anywhere from three to 10 years from now.

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