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vinaixa
Topic Author
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Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:03 am

Hello everyone!

I’ve seen someone mention this in the Chicago aviation thread but there wasn’t really any discussion on it. Why aren’t there any flights between MXP and ORD? They are both large metro areas and the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million... (Source: encyclopedia).

FCO and VCE only see seasonal flights, while there are cities like KRK that are able to sustain year-round service...

What could explain this? Thanks
 
Ishrion
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:06 am

Air Italy was supposed to begin MXP-ORD but dropped out before it began.

LOT can sustain ORD-KRK year-round because of the Polish population I’m assuming, with around 900,000 in the area.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:09 am

vinaixa wrote:
Hello everyone!

I’ve seen someone mention this in the Chicago aviation thread but there wasn’t really any discussion on it. Why aren’t there any flights between MXP and ORD? They are both large metro areas and the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million... (Source: encyclopedia).

FCO and VCE only see seasonal flights, while there are cities like KRK that are able to sustain year-round service...

What could explain this? Thanks


Besides Greece, Italy is the most seasonal destination in Europe.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:15 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Besides Greece, Italy is the most seasonal destination in Europe.


Something I wouldn't expect from the world's 9th largest economy! (12th in PPP terms.) I would have thought that Italy would have attracted lots of business traffic based on its population size and economy alone.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:23 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Besides Greece, Italy is the most seasonal destination in Europe.


Something I wouldn't expect from the world's 9th largest economy! (12th in PPP terms.) I would have thought that Italy would have attracted lots of business traffic based on its population size and economy alone.


Business is concentrated to NYC and Miami, the only cities that have year-round to both MXP and Rome besides Atlanta.
a.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:27 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Business is concentrated to NYC and Miami, the only cities that have year-round to both MXP and Rome besides Atlanta.


Oh, you mean most seasonal in terms of U.S.-Europe traffic?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:31 am

Because Alitalia struggles to get out of bed and even put on its pants every day, so Italian POS is weak?
 
Sydscott
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:54 am

vinaixa wrote:
Hello everyone!

I’ve seen someone mention this in the Chicago aviation thread but there wasn’t really any discussion on it. Why aren’t there any flights between MXP and ORD? They are both large metro areas and the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million... (Source: encyclopedia).

FCO and VCE only see seasonal flights, while there are cities like KRK that are able to sustain year-round service...

What could explain this? Thanks


Given what AA has been doing at ORD in terms of seasonal routes I'd assume at some point that they will try a Summar ORD-MXP service to see how it goes. If there is potential it would expand from there as other AA ORD seasonal services have across the Atlantic.
 
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Coal
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:17 am

AA used to fly ORD-MXP in the late 90s / early 00s. I flew nonrev ORD-MXP in 2001 (I think pre-9/11).
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PlymSpotter
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:59 am

The majority of Italians migrated to Chicago during the late 1800s and early 1900s. In turn, the majority came from rural areas in Central and Southern Italy, so a flight into the MIL area would be of little use to those returning home for visits or business.
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ScottB
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:00 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
Something I wouldn't expect from the world's 9th largest economy! (12th in PPP terms.) I would have thought that Italy would have attracted lots of business traffic based on its population size and economy alone.


Italy punches a bit lower than that as far as trade with the U.S. goes -- about 15th for imports from the U.S. and 10th for exports to the U.S. And keep in mind that much larger trading partners like the U.K. and France have relatively limited year-round business-oriented service from airports other than their main legacy national carrier hubs. Much of the U.S. service from LGW and MAN, for example, is heavily geared toward Britons going on holiday.

And Milan's key economic sectors -- fashion, automobiles, and chemicals -- aren't that well-aligned with the regional economy in Chicago.

MXP isn't a hub for Alitalia anymore, and AZ is a basket case in any event.

vinaixa wrote:
the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million


So, the greatest part of immigration from Italy occurred over a century ago. While there is great pride in Italian-American heritage, the connections between families have inevitably weakened over the years. Moreover, the majority of Italian immigrants to the U.S. came from the relatively impoverished South, not the wealthier North of which Milan is the economic capital. I'd expect more demand to NAP, PMO, or CTA for visiting distant cousins or ancestral hometowns.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:02 am

Easy connections at YYZ and EWR, I remember at MXP that the AC MXP-YYZ had a UA codeshare meaning they connect to UA ORD flights at YYZ for example.
 
luckyone
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:03 am

vinaixa wrote:
Hello everyone!

I’ve seen someone mention this in the Chicago aviation thread but there wasn’t really any discussion on it. Why aren’t there any flights between MXP and ORD? They are both large metro areas and the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million... (Source: encyclopedia).

FCO and VCE only see seasonal flights, while there are cities like KRK that are able to sustain year-round service...

What could explain this? Thanks

The "Italian community" in Chicago is also largely 2nd and 3rd generation and then some by this point-- the bulk of the migration came before the 1930s. Those folks don't go back to the motherland with the same frequency as immigrants and 1st generation, and most of them don't speak Italian. Also, most of the Italian immigrants to the US in general came from the South of Italy--Milan being in the North of Italy wouldn't get much VFR from these folks anyway.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:04 am

American airlines stated that it wishes to start another flight to MXP in addition to its JFK and MIA services with the rumors being PHL and not ORD according to Aeroporti Lombardi (In Italian):

http://www.mxpairport.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12480
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jfk777
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:36 am

Many people going to Milan fly to Linate airport via another European hub Like CDG, AMS, ZRH or FRA. Milan is a great city for feed to other hubs since people hate Malpensa.
 
vinaixa
Topic Author
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:36 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Besides Greece, Italy is the most seasonal destination in Europe.


Something I wouldn't expect from the world's 9th largest economy! (12th in PPP terms.) I would have thought that Italy would have attracted lots of business traffic based on its population size and economy alone.



I thought so too. I would think BCN and ATH are somewhat seasonal destinations too ( the two are served from Chicago during the northern summer months). Yet MXP, as a late commercial and manufacturing centre, cannot sustain seasonal ORD flights.

Perhaps it's due to Alitalia not being strong enough in MXP and Delta not having a hub in ORD. But who knows.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:03 am

I think the Chicagoans of Italian descent is a bit of a red herring, they’ve been there for generations and their connections to the old country at this point are reduced to a slight sentimental feeling, nothing more. Language, culinary, cultural links have atrophied. They’re just Americans whose family name ends in a vowel. They’re probably good for one trip to Italy in a lifetime, which is on a par with the number of Italian vacations the Katzenburgs or the Rogans down the street might take.
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usflyer msp
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:32 pm

Sydscott wrote:
vinaixa wrote:
Hello everyone!

I’ve seen someone mention this in the Chicago aviation thread but there wasn’t really any discussion on it. Why aren’t there any flights between MXP and ORD? They are both large metro areas and the Italian community in Chicago as of 2000 was of around half a million... (Source: encyclopedia).

FCO and VCE only see seasonal flights, while there are cities like KRK that are able to sustain year-round service...

What could explain this? Thanks


Given what AA has been doing at ORD in terms of seasonal routes I'd assume at some point that they will try a Summar ORD-MXP service to see how it goes. If there is potential it would expand from there as other AA ORD seasonal services have across the Atlantic.


I wouldn't could on that. Milan really is not very touristy and lacks cruise traffic like BCN and VCE
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:47 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Many people going to Milan fly to Linate airport via another European hub Like CDG, AMS, ZRH or FRA. Milan is a great city for feed to other hubs since people hate Malpensa.

I doubt this is the reason for ORD not having Milan service, most people couldn't/wouldn't care about liking an airport for choosing their destination
 
Ishrion
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:04 pm

lesfalls wrote:
American airlines stated that it wishes to start another flight to MXP in addition to its JFK and MIA services with the rumors being PHL and not ORD according to Aeroporti Lombardi (In Italian):

http://www.mxpairport.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12480


That's from February 2019 though. I believe that was in response to Air Italy's massive transatlantic expansion which hasn't been doing so well.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:03 pm

My understanding is that while there is traffic to support USA-Italy routes in winter, the Yield/RASM is incredibly low, the aircraft can be used on other higher yielding routes during those times, which is what most airlines choose to do during winter season.
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MikeMidd2001
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:41 pm

Loads of reasons:

There's a big difference between Italian-Americans and newly arrived Italian immigrants. Many Italian-Americans will have emotional connections to Italy but no actual familial contacts.

Italy may export a lot of products to the USA, but that doesn't mean that it results in business travel. Wine, cheese, etc., don't involve the same degree of corporate travel as financial services, pharma, automotive, etc., the way the UK and Germany do with the USA. Especially to Milan, which is a hub for industries without strong ties to Chicago (like fashion) or that are Europe-focused (like Milan's finance industry, which is less global than London or Zurich).

Italian tourism isn't focused on Milan. Americans visiting Italy tend to do multiple cities at once, meaning flying into Rome and going to multiple cities by train before return to Rome is pretty common, to less of a need to head to Milan specifically. And Milan itself isn't seen as a popular tourist destination the way Rome, Venice, Florence and others are.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:27 pm

Here are the numbers for foreign born Italians as of 2018 by metro area:

New York: 118483
Chicago: 19671
Boston: 15535
Miami: 14848
Philadelphia: 12675
Los Angeles: 11182
Detroit: 7750
San Francisco: 6432
Hartford: 6336
Bridgeport, CT: 5402
Washington DC: 5219
New Haven, CT: 4852
Pittsburgh: 4150
San Diego: 4117
Cleveland: 3703

With the exception of NYC, none of those numbers are big at all. Certainly not enough to warrant air service year round.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:27 am

Coal wrote:
AA used to fly ORD-MXP in the late 90s / early 00s. I flew nonrev ORD-MXP in 2001 (I think pre-9/11).

Yes, AA flew to MXP along with AZ. So there were actually 2 airlines flying the route, although AZ only did it 3 a week and then 4 a week to FCO IIRC. Both airlines dropped MXP around the same time which I think was just after 9/11.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:50 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Air Italy was supposed to begin MXP-ORD but dropped out before it began.

LOT can sustain ORD-KRK year-round because of the Polish population I’m assuming, with around 900,000 in the area.


Also, LOT is in Star Alliance, and ORD is a major Star hub.

If Alitalia were in Star or One World, they probably would have flights from FCO and MXP to ORD, but because SkyTeam is the weakest of the three alliances in Chicago, AZ does not get any feed in Chicago.
 
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jaybird
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Re: Italy service out of ORD: why is MXP nonexistent and FCO seasonal?

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:18 pm

yo! Emirates! Need a new spoke out of Milan? Chicago is calling!

:-)

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