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trees
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri May 01, 2020 8:46 pm

 
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fraspotter
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Sat May 02, 2020 5:08 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
Have Alitalia run it! What could go wrong?


I can just imagine Italian taxpayers looking at the situation and saying to themselves "so the government withholding funds and letting a basket case of an airline fail is an option here?" :scratchchin:
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
evanb
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Sat May 02, 2020 8:05 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Anyways, what I think we will end up seeing is an outside airline brought in under contract to set up a "new" SA, in much the same way as UL did, in fact, EK would probably be the go to IMHO, in normal times EK was flying 2x380, 1 x 777 into JNB, that's a lot of pax taken from SA. While SA certainly has a number of issues, the SA government allowed the competition to trample them, maybe by having one of the competition having some skin in the game a little pressure could be relieved.


I think this narrative that EK, QR, TK, EY, ET and the like are the cause of SAA's demise it far off the money. Firstly, South Africa's liberalized market is meant to promote tourism and business travel, i.e. the economy as a whole, not protect SAA. It has achieved this.

But further to this, it hasn't stoped BA operating up to 6x daily to South Africa in peak season, or LH flying up to 3x daily, AF/KL 4x daily. All these airlines have much higher cost structures than SAA, yet they thrive and SAA decline. The long haul market to South Africa is large, and SAA's portion of the long haul business has been declining constantly since the early 90s. That tells us that it's systematic SAA issues rather than simply competition from the ME3+. These issues have been well described over a number of years and fundamentally stem from corruption, mismanagement and political interference. This has paralyze the organization financially over a number of years which has led to poor strategy and lack of a modern business model. They're playing with an early 2000s airline and business model in 2020.
 
mr02
Posts: 190
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Sun May 03, 2020 5:05 pm

evanb wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
Anyways, what I think we will end up seeing is an outside airline brought in under contract to set up a "new" SA, in much the same way as UL did, in fact, EK would probably be the go to IMHO, in normal times EK was flying 2x380, 1 x 777 into JNB, that's a lot of pax taken from SA. While SA certainly has a number of issues, the SA government allowed the competition to trample them, maybe by having one of the competition having some skin in the game a little pressure could be relieved.


I think this narrative that EK, QR, TK, EY, ET and the like are the cause of SAA's demise it far off the money. Firstly, South Africa's liberalized market is meant to promote tourism and business travel, i.e. the economy as a whole, not protect SAA. It has achieved this.

But further to this, it hasn't stoped BA operating up to 6x daily to South Africa in peak season, or LH flying up to 3x daily, AF/KL 4x daily. All these airlines have much higher cost structures than SAA, yet they thrive and SAA decline. The long haul market to South Africa is large, and SAA's portion of the long haul business has been declining constantly since the early 90s. That tells us that it's systematic SAA issues rather than simply competition from the ME3+. These issues have been well described over a number of years and fundamentally stem from corruption, mismanagement and political interference. This has paralyze the organization financially over a number of years which has led to poor strategy and lack of a modern business model. They're playing with an early 2000s airline and business model in 2020.

So SAA's failure/demise was systematic? When would you say the decline started exactly? I've heard people say that SAA's problems started when Coleman Andrews started working at SA and sold SAA's aircraft and leased them back from a company he had close ties to.
 
danipawa
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun May 03, 2020 6:05 pm

They are going to use metal from SAA?

https://simpleflying.com/south-africa-n ... l-airline/
 
evanb
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Sun May 03, 2020 9:15 pm

mr02 wrote:
So SAA's failure/demise was systematic? When would you say the decline started exactly? I've heard people say that SAA's problems started when Coleman Andrews started working at SA and sold SAA's aircraft and leased them back from a company he had close ties to.


I think it's complicated. Andrews dramatically modernized SAA and evolved its business model to adapt to the post Apartheid world. He evolved the domestic regional business model to focus on frequency rather than just capacity. He began to develop partnerships and codeshares with foreign carriers to adjust to the hub model. He also had a mandate to expand and he didn't have the fleet to do this, particularly in the short haul business. He needed to raise money for this and refinancing some of the fleet was a means to do this (it was about four aircraft only that he did this to). Was he corrupt? Not sure. Was he unpopular with staff? Yes.

The political interference and corruption has been systematic and endemic for at last a decade (maybe decade and a half). Before then it had its problems, but certainly not in a catastrophic manner.
 
mr02
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Mon May 04, 2020 1:58 pm

evanb wrote:
mr02 wrote:
So SAA's failure/demise was systematic? When would you say the decline started exactly? I've heard people say that SAA's problems started when Coleman Andrews started working at SA and sold SAA's aircraft and leased them back from a company he had close ties to.


I think it's complicated. Andrews dramatically modernized SAA and evolved its business model to adapt to the post Apartheid world. He evolved the domestic regional business model to focus on frequency rather than just capacity. He began to develop partnerships and codeshares with foreign carriers to adjust to the hub model. He also had a mandate to expand and he didn't have the fleet to do this, particularly in the short haul business. He needed to raise money for this and refinancing some of the fleet was a means to do this (it was about four aircraft only that he did this to). Was he corrupt? Not sure. Was he unpopular with staff? Yes.

The political interference and corruption has been systematic and endemic for at last a decade (maybe decade and a half). Before then it had its problems, but certainly not in a catastrophic manner.

How was the service of SAA in apartheid compared to Andrews tenure and after his departure? I've heard people complain and say it was better in apartheid but I find it good(I am not one to complain). Another thing,would you say that SAA should completely leave the domestic market and let Mango take over it,that's assuming Mango will still be part of the "new" SAA group.
 
evanb
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Tue May 05, 2020 6:41 am

mr02 wrote:
How was the service of SAA in apartheid compared to Andrews tenure and after his departure? I've heard people complain and say it was betterin apartheid but I find it good(I am not one to complain). Another thing,would you say that SAA should completely leave the domestic market and let Mango take over it,that's assuming Mango will still be part of the "new" SAA group.


SAA during the 80s was an excellent carrier in terms of its operations and on board product. However, it wasn't a conventional airline. It was part of the state apparatus and its goal was to help mitigate South Africa's economic, social and cultural isolation. As such, there was no expense spared in furthering this.

It's difficult to speculate about the future. There is just so much uncertainty in the market to predict anything. But all bets are off, and no bets are off at the same time.
 
mr02
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Tue May 05, 2020 7:19 am

evanb wrote:
mr02 wrote:
How was the service of SAA in apartheid compared to Andrews tenure and after his departure? I've heard people complain and say it was betterin apartheid but I find it good(I am not one to complain). Another thing,would you say that SAA should completely leave the domestic market and let Mango take over it,that's assuming Mango will still be part of the "new" SAA group.


SAA during the 80s was an excellent carrier in terms of its operations and on board product. However, it wasn't a conventional airline. It was part of the state apparatus and its goal was to help mitigate South Africa's economic, social and cultural isolation. As such, there was no expense spared in furthering this.

It's difficult to speculate about the future. There is just so much uncertainty in the market to predict anything. But all bets are off, and no bets are off at the same time.

So SAA was heavily subsidized? I must have been expensive to fly around Africa the whole time. Also,did SAA have competition on international flight or were other airlines not allowed to fly into South Africa by the government? As far as I know SAA was the only airline allowed to operate in South Africa(domestically) with Trek Airways being an exception on international flights.
 
CometOrbit
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Tue May 05, 2020 8:06 am

mr02 wrote:
So SAA was heavily subsidized? I must have been expensive to fly around Africa the whole time. Also,did SAA have competition on international flight or were other airlines not allowed to fly into South Africa by the government? As far as I know SAA was the only airline allowed to operate in South Africa(domestically) with Trek Airways being an exception on international flights.


In the 1980s SAA could only operate to destinations where the government had not cut ties with South Africa because of UN sanctions.
SAA flew to London, New York, Lisbon, Tel Aviv (all these via Cape Verde, as they could not overfly the African mainland), Taipei and Sydney (via Perth) and a few others.
Regionally they had Windhoek, Lusaka and Harare but no further north.
Most foreign airlines cut or diverted their routes, eg Qantas flew across the Indian Ocean to Harare not to Johannesburg.
There was international business travel to SA but very little tourism.
BA was about the only foreign airline which maintained daily services to SA, and no doubt the operation was pooled in some way with SAA (ie not in competition).
For instance I think BA flew from LHR to DUR, while SAA flew LHR to CPT, with both flying to JNB.
The political and economic picture changed completely when apartheid ended and the country opened up.
South Africa was dominated then (and still is to some extent) by what are called parastatals, enterprises which are largely in government ownership/control, and "too big to fail".
SAA was one of those.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue May 05, 2020 10:33 am

I have different memories of the old SAA and don't remember them being that good.

As for foreign competition, yes QF and PA suspended their JNB flights, but if you look at departedflights.com there was still plenty of European carriers operating during apartheid.
 
andz
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Tue May 05, 2020 2:25 pm

mr02 wrote:
I've heard people say that SAA's problems started when Coleman Andrews started working at SA and sold SAA's aircraft and leased them back from a company he had close ties to.


evanb wrote:
Was he corrupt?

see above

evanb wrote:
Was he unpopular with staff? Yes.

Understatement of the year but he set the tone for pretty much every CEO who followed, each one worse than the predecessor. There were a very few exceptions in top management, most notably Kyrl Acton who spent 6 months as COO and is probably the only one in recent memory who knew anything about an airline. Unfortunately he was working under probably the most incompetent CEO of the lot, Khaya Ngqula.

link to an old article:
https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/e ... ave-737165
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 11, 2020 12:34 pm

This is just being dragged out more and more now and the employees are facing an even longer wait for any kind of payout, never mind that they won't receive a salary for May.

First the labour court ruled that the retrenchment process cannot go ahead without a business plan.
https://www.enca.com/news/labour-court- ... renchments

This was after the employees had been given an extension to the deadline to sign a voluntary retrenchment agreement
https://www.enca.com/news/saa-staff-giv ... agreements

Now the BRPs have started an appeal against the labour court judgment.

SAA have also frozen all redemption activity on the Voyager program
https://www.businessinsider.co.za/saa-v ... s-2020-5-2
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Thu May 14, 2020 5:54 pm

Aircastle says it expects to take back all four A330-200s on lease with SAA during May 2020.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
imag
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat May 16, 2020 10:11 am

LAXintl wrote:
Aircastle says it expects to take back all four A330-200s on lease with SAA during May 2020.


There are currently four A332’s enroute to JNB to GRU under SA4701/3/5/7 flight numbers (16 May). They could be repatriation or freight, but SAA have mostly been using the A346 for freight and repatriations. I know one of the 332’s was returned to Newquay previously.
 
trees
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat May 16, 2020 10:20 am

imag wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Aircastle says it expects to take back all four A330-200s on lease with SAA during May 2020.


There are currently four A332’s enroute to JNB to GRU under SA4701/3/5/7 flight numbers (16 May). They could be repatriation or freight, but SAA have mostly been using the A346 for freight and repatriations. I know one of the 332’s was returned to Newquay previously.


They are on their way to PHX being returned to lessor
 
danipawa
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat May 16, 2020 3:07 pm

Airbus A330 -243 1191 ZS-SXZ South African Airways ferried 16may20 JNB-GRU on return to lessor (+ 1210 ZS-SXY, + 1223 ZS-SXX, + 1236 ZS-SXW)

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 6:39 am

May 18, 2020: The four retired SAA A330-200 aircraft have now left GRU after an overnight stay, and seem to be heading - flying in trail - for a parking spot in the USA??

- SA4701 GRU 01:00 - XXX A330-243 ZS-SXZ
- SA4703 GRU 23:04 - XXX A330-243 ZS-SXX
- SA4705 GRU 23:57 - XXX A330-243 ZS-SXW
- SA4707 GRU 02:15 - XXX A330-243 ZS-SXY

https://www.flightradar24.com/SAA4701/2484dd5d
https://www.flightradar24.com/SAA4703/2484ccfa
https://www.flightradar24.com/SAA4705/2484d555
https://www.flightradar24.com/SAA4707/2484eaa3
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 8:46 am

factsonly wrote:
May 18, 2020: The four retired SAA A330-200 aircraft have now left GRU after an overnight stay, and seem to be heading - flying in trail - for a parking spot in the USA??



Keep an eye on Tuscon...
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 11:26 am

andz wrote:
Keep an eye on Tuscon...


Sorry I meant Tucson
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 1:58 pm

SA did 4 ferry flights GRU-TUS last night.
3 of them still airborne.
All A332, probably storage/returning to lessors.
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 2:16 pm

the second one just landed, can someone get a pic of all four parked together? They are about an hour apart.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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EddieMunster
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Mon May 18, 2020 2:20 pm

evanb wrote:
mr02 wrote:

The political interference and corruption has been systematic and endemic for at last a decade (maybe decade and a half). Before then it had its problems, but certainly not in a catastrophic manner.


I’ve flown SAA long-haul in J a number of times over the past decade, mostly JNB-LHR, IAD, and PER, and while not up to SQ or even BA standards, I was generally happy with the service. From all accounts it was always the premier African carrier in terms of global reach, professionalism and service. So it’s very sad to see such a historic and once-proud legacy flag carrier bite the dust. I’ve also dealt with Eskom a fair amount, and have some insight into how the one-party misrule and corruption of the ANC can cause so many problems for the economy in South Africa, as well as for those SOEs.

Can you provide more details about the exact sort of government corruption that helped doom SAA? Was it interference in business planning, such as forcing them to fly certain unprofitable routes? Or overstuffing the company with do-nothing patronage jobs for key ANC vote-hustlers? Or outright theft and phony kickback contracts for jet fuel or other things, where the graft ended up in Zuma’s pockets? All of the above? I’m curious, because it’s such a beautiful country with so many resources and so much much potential, and yet looks to be on the road to becoming just another African failed state looted by the corruption of the Big Men.
 
trees
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 5:13 pm

You won’t see all four together on the ground as some have already departed to MZJ. There were only two on the ground at a time.
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 5:21 pm

trees wrote:
You won’t see all four together on the ground as some have already departed to MZJ. There were only two on the ground at a time.

yes I noticed that.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Williamsb747
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Mon May 18, 2020 5:34 pm

EddieMunster wrote:
evanb wrote:
mr02 wrote:

The political interference and corruption has been systematic and endemic for at last a decade (maybe decade and a half). Before then it had its problems, but certainly not in a catastrophic manner.


I’ve flown SAA long-haul in J a number of times over the past decade, mostly JNB-LHR, IAD, and PER, and while not up to SQ or even BA standards, I was generally happy with the service. From all accounts it was always the premier African carrier in terms of global reach, professionalism and service. So it’s very sad to see such a historic and once-proud legacy flag carrier bite the dust. I’ve also dealt with Eskom a fair amount, and have some insight into how the one-party misrule and corruption of the ANC can cause so many problems for the economy in South Africa, as well as for those SOEs.

Can you provide more details about the exact sort of government corruption that helped doom SAA? Was it interference in business planning, such as forcing them to fly certain unprofitable routes? Or overstuffing the company with do-nothing patronage jobs for key ANC vote-hustlers? Or outright theft and phony kickback contracts for jet fuel or other things, where the graft ended up in Zuma’s pockets? All of the above? I’m curious, because it’s such a beautiful country with so many resources and so much much potential, and yet looks to be on the road to becoming just another African failed state looted by the corruption of the Big Men.


All of the above.
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
T54A
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 18, 2020 8:04 pm

ojjunior wrote:
SA did 4 ferry flights GRU-TUS last night.
3 of them still airborne.
All A332, probably storage/returning to lessors.


Correct
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
evanb
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Wed May 20, 2020 9:50 am

EddieMunster wrote:
Can you provide more details about the exact sort of government corruption that helped doom SAA? Was it interference in business planning, such as forcing them to fly certain unprofitable routes? Or overstuffing the company with do-nothing patronage jobs for key ANC vote-hustlers? Or outright theft and phony kickback contracts for jet fuel or other things, where the graft ended up in Zuma’s pockets? All of the above? I’m curious, because it’s such a beautiful country with so many resources and so much much potential, and yet looks to be on the road to becoming just another African failed state looted by the corruption of the Big Men.


I'd put things into two buckets, corruption/theft and the paralysis of the business due to corrupt leaders. In the first case, we've seen corruption in procurement, particularly in consumables like catering, newspapers, advertising, financial advisory, fuel, ground handling and spares, going so far as widespread theft. There are stories of whole engines and landing gears going missing. Almost everything over the last 10 years has been driven by corruption. Big ticket items like aircraft orders become wedge issues since people in government tried to push back. This often left SAA in paralysis and getting nothing, missing out on important fleet decisions.

In terms of the latter, the business became paralyzed. As the business has shrunk over the last 5 plus years they have not been able to reduce staff numbers due to political paralysis. Also, they have not been able to evolve the business model as the global market has changed since corruption became the nexus of everything. For example, they were on the cusp of a JV with Emirates which got scrapped at the last minute due to people wanting to get their hand in the cookie jar.
 
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cv990Coronado
Posts: 378
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Wed May 20, 2020 12:35 pm

evanb wrote:
EddieMunster wrote:
Can you provide more details about the exact sort of government corruption that helped doom SAA? Was it interference in business planning, such as forcing them to fly certain unprofitable routes? Or overstuffing the company with do-nothing patronage jobs for key ANC vote-hustlers? Or outright theft and phony kickback contracts for jet fuel or other things, where the graft ended up in Zuma’s pockets? All of the above? I’m curious, because it’s such a beautiful country with so many resources and so much much potential, and yet looks to be on the road to becoming just another African failed state looted by the corruption of the Big Men.


I'd put things into two buckets, corruption/theft and the paralysis of the business due to corrupt leaders. In the first case, we've seen corruption in procurement, particularly in consumables like catering, newspapers, advertising, financial advisory, fuel, ground handling and spares, going so far as widespread theft. There are stories of whole engines and landing gears going missing. Almost everything over the last 10 years has been driven by corruption. Big ticket items like aircraft orders become wedge issues since people in government tried to push back. This often left SAA in paralysis and getting nothing, missing out on important fleet decisions.

In terms of the latter, the business became paralyzed. As the business has shrunk over the last 5 plus years they have not been able to reduce staff numbers due to political paralysis. Also, they have not been able to evolve the business model as the global market has changed since corruption became the nexus of everything. For example, they were on the cusp of a JV with Emirates which got scrapped at the last minute due to people wanting to get their hand in the cookie jar.


You have summed it up completely, what a sad state of affairs. The question is will the government let it die? By dying, so will all the 'commissions' and many jobs for union/ANC voters. That is why we keep hearing about the 'new' company. In a normal situation post-Covid-19, a new airline couldn't be created but ANC South Africa is not a normal situation, therefore the bets are off.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
trees
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Wed May 20, 2020 4:15 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
The question is will the government let it die?


It would appear not... https://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2020-05-20-saa-gets-r38bn-eskom-r33bn-as-covid-19-ups-soes-financial-woes/
 
evanb
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Re: SAA to be liquidated!

Wed May 20, 2020 4:17 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
You have summed it up completely, what a sad state of affairs. The question is will the government let it die? By dying, so will all the 'commissions' and many jobs for union/ANC voters. That is why we keep hearing about the 'new' company. In a normal situation post-Covid-19, a new airline couldn't be created but ANC South Africa is not a normal situation, therefore the bets are off.


If it were not for COVID, they'd now let it die. The guys who now hold the purse strings have too much sense. However, COVID has complicated things and given cover to other voices in the party and government. It will live at least another year I suspect.
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed May 20, 2020 4:21 pm

Check out this article and the related stories linked on this page.

"It seems the struggles of the entire industry, including its biggest commercial rival and owner of Kulula.com, Comair, has sparked ideas of consolidation in Pravin Gordhan, the minister of the department of public enterprises.

Last week, Comair, which has the licence to fly under the British Airways brand in SA, joined the national airline in moving into business rescue.

While briefing parliament on the state of affairs at SAA, Gordhan spoke of the creation of a new SAA. One of his slides highlighted the words "consolidation" and "Comair", though he himself did not mention the JSE-listed company by name."


https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Industr ... 20200514-2
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 25, 2020 8:10 am

London had one of the A340-600s over the weekend. Presumably for cargo or repatriation.

https://flic.kr/p/2j5fEgA
 
andz
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed May 27, 2020 5:09 pm

This is like closing the gate after the horse has bolted but anyway...

Former chairperson of SAA Dudu Myeni has been declared "delinquent for life" as a company director and ordered to pay costs after a court case lasting several weeks. The judgment has been referred to the National Prosecuting Authority for further action.

Myeni was the one responsible for scuppering the Emirates JV and acted with a level of impunity not seen in any other head of the airline which is saying something.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article ... lic-funds/
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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JFKJets
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Sources: South African Airways Bailout Agreement

Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:59 pm

Seems like the South African Government has warmed to the idea of keeping SAA alive.


https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/leaked-document-states-south-african-airways-bailout-agreed/
 
factsonly
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Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:10 pm

9 June, 2020:

Three SAA A319 aircraft are being ferried from JNB to Accra and beyond........

1. SA4702 A319 ZS-SFI
2. SA4701 A319 ZS-SFG
3. SA4703 A319 ZS-SFM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfi
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfg
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfm
 
AF022
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:18 pm

factsonly wrote:
9 June, 2020:

Three SAA A319 aircraft are being ferried from JNB to Accra and beyond........

1. SA4702 A319 ZS-SFI
2. SA4701 A319 ZS-SFG
3. SA4703 A319 ZS-SFM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfi
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfg
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfm


Cheaper to park in ACC?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10510
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:22 pm

AF022 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
9 June, 2020:

Three SAA A319 aircraft are being ferried from JNB to Accra and beyond........

1. SA4702 A319 ZS-SFI
2. SA4701 A319 ZS-SFG
3. SA4703 A319 ZS-SFM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfi
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfg
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfm


Cheaper to park in ACC?

Probably a temporary stop before they head up to Europe or a North American desert.
 
T54A
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:47 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:54 pm

factsonly wrote:
9 June, 2020:

Three SAA A319 aircraft are being ferried from JNB to Accra and beyond........

1. SA4702 A319 ZS-SFI
2. SA4701 A319 ZS-SFG
3. SA4703 A319 ZS-SFM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfi
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfg
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfm


Return to lessor
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
User avatar
albertocsc
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:09 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:06 pm

factsonly wrote:
9 June, 2020:

Three SAA A319 aircraft are being ferried from JNB to Accra and beyond........

1. SA4702 A319 ZS-SFI
2. SA4701 A319 ZS-SFG
3. SA4703 A319 ZS-SFM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfi
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfg
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zs-sfm


They have ended up in:
1. Ciudad Real CQM
2. Shannon SNN
3. Lourdes-Tarbes LDE

+ ZS-SFH ended up in Kaunas KUN, via Cairo
 
louA340
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:19 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:16 pm

 
seat64k
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Sources: South African Airways Bailout Agreement

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:11 am

JFKJets wrote:
Seems like the South African Government has warmed to the idea of keeping SAA alive.


"Warmed to"? They never had any other position.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13201
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Sources: South African Airways Bailout Agreement

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:12 am

seat64k wrote:
JFKJets wrote:
Seems like the South African Government has warmed to the idea of keeping SAA alive.

"Warmed to"? They never had any other position.

^This.

Who ACTUALLY believed that they'd really let it go?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:20 am

What's really stopping the Govt from letting SAA fail, persuading Comair to drop the BA branding, and turning Comair into the country's main airline ? Many of the missing long haul routes would be picked up by other airlines within 18 months.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:51 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
What's really stopping the Govt from letting SAA fail, persuading Comair to drop the BA branding, and turning Comair into the country's main airline ? Many of the missing long haul routes would be picked up by other airlines within 18 months.


Have you not been reading the posts on this thread? SAA is mired in political interference and corruption.

If SAA falls over, it will expose the Government for the mismanagement, mishandling and corruption the have endured over the recent years. Moreover, it would be a political headache of enormous proportions - the loss of jobs, for one thing, let alone the damage to national pride.

The only way SAA will fail, is if there is a change Government.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:05 am

I know there's corruption - but I thought eventually the Govt would decide that throwing public cash into a money pit when the country desperately needs funds spent on other things would make them end the subsidy
 
A330Inter
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:00 am

I think they are doing the best they can do for now while dealing the corruptible interference:
- Reduce long haul to the bare minimum: LHR, FRA, NYC (I would venture for GRU/HKG, I don't think it's needed, maybe SIN)
- Keep minimum of african routes under SAA brand (longer than 3hrs): ACC, ADD, CAI - leverage Star Alliance partnership there
- Everything else to be shifted to Airlink or LCC
 
andz
Posts: 7692
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:08 pm

vhtje wrote:
If SAA falls over, it will expose the Government for the mismanagement, mishandling and corruption the have endured over the recent years. Moreover, it would be a political headache of enormous proportions - the loss of jobs, for one thing, let alone the damage to national pride.


This is exactly why BRPs were appointed, so that when the jobs go and the airline is liquidated/wound up the ANC government can put their corrupt hands up and say "it wasn't us".

The exposure is already there for all to see.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:24 am

SA A346 ZS-SNC (Star Alliance livery) is about lo land at EZE from GRU

SA2953 from Sao Paulo https://fr24.com/SAA2953/24b5373b

Cargo?
 
braniff2hav
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:20 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:37 am

ojjunior wrote:
SA A346 ZS-SNC (Star Alliance livery) is about lo land at EZE from GRU

SA2953 from Sao Paulo https://fr24.com/SAA2953/24b5373b

Cargo?

Has to be cargo as Argentina has suspended all commerical/passenger aviation. Unless it is perhaps repatriation service.

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