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andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:26 pm

Has anyone been keeping track of what is left of the fleet with all these one way flights recently?

My wife finished on Monday after over 41 years with SAA so I can't ask her to check.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
ScottB
Posts: 7293
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:29 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Just wondering how many routes / frequencies they can maintain with just 88 pilots. Doesn't seem like a lot, certainly not many intercontinental. Unless they wants to wet-lease aircraft, which doesn't seem the most cost effective to me, but I'm not an expert.


I don't quite see what they can do with that few pilots, either. Delta at the end of 2019 had just over 13,000 pilots for a fleet of just under 900 mainline aircraft -- or about 14 pilots per frame. I chose Delta as an example of a mixed fleet with a broad portfolio of flights ranging from short domestic sectors to long-haul intercontinental markets. At a similar ratio, SA could have maybe 7 or 8 aircraft, although my understanding is they plan to resume flying with 6.

But the whole plan seems completely ridiculous. The state wants 10 billion ZAR -- $600 million -- for an airline that would operate 6 used planes and maybe owns 9 airworthy frames total. You could start a new airline from scratch for a fraction of that and not have to deal with all of SA's baggage.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:06 pm

ScottB wrote:
The state wants 10 billion ZAR -- $600 million -- for an airline that would operate 6 used planes and maybe owns 9 airworthy frames total. You could start a new airline from scratch for a fraction of that and not have to deal with all of SA's baggage.

That money includes the severance packages for the 3000+ staff they're laying off as well as paying debts.

What's with the continuous references to "airworthy"?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
bennett123
Posts: 10729
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:20 pm

A319
ZS-SFG RTL 2020
ZS-SFH RTL 2020
ZS-SFI RTL 2020
ZS-SFJ
ZS-SFK
ZS-SFL
ZS-SFM RTL 2020

A320
ZS-SZA RTL 2020
ZS-SZB RTL 2020
ZS-SZC RTL 2020
ZS-SZD RTL 2020
ZS-SZE RTL 2020
ZS-SZF RTL 2020
ZS-SZG RTL 2020
ZS-SGI RTL 2020
ZS-SGJ

A330
ZS-SXI RTL 2020
ZS-SXJ RTL 2020
ZS-SXK
ZS-SXL RTL 2020
ZS-SXM RTL 2020
ZS-SXU RTL 2020
ZS-SXV
ZS-SXW RTL 2020
ZS-SXX RTL 2020
ZS-SXY RTL 2020
ZS-SXZ RTL 2020

A340-300
ZS-SXA
ZS-SXB
ZS-SXC
ZS-SXD
ZS-SXE
ZS-SXF
ZS-SXG
ZS-SXH Stored 2017

A340-600
ZS-SNA Stored 2018
ZS-SNB Stored 2018
ZS-SNC
ZS-SND
ZS-SNE
ZS-SNF
ZS-SNG Stored 2019-2020
ZS-SNH
ZS-SNI

A350

ZS-SDC RTL 2020
ZS-SDD RTL 2020
ZS-SDE RTL 2020
ZS-SDF RTL 2020

B737
ZS-SBA
ZS-SBB

This is my record, not sure about some of the A340's.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:44 pm

bennett123 wrote:
A319
ZS-SFG RTL 2020
ZS-SFH RTL 2020
ZS-SFI RTL 2020
ZS-SFJ
ZS-SFK
ZS-SFL
ZS-SFM RTL 2020

A320
ZS-SZA RTL 2020
ZS-SZB RTL 2020
ZS-SZC RTL 2020
ZS-SZD RTL 2020
ZS-SZE RTL 2020
ZS-SZF RTL 2020
ZS-SZG RTL 2020
ZS-SGI RTL 2020
ZS-SGJ

A330
ZS-SXI RTL 2020
ZS-SXJ RTL 2020
ZS-SXK
ZS-SXL RTL 2020
ZS-SXM RTL 2020
ZS-SXU RTL 2020
ZS-SXV
ZS-SXW RTL 2020
ZS-SXX RTL 2020
ZS-SXY RTL 2020
ZS-SXZ RTL 2020

A340-300
ZS-SXA
ZS-SXB
ZS-SXC
ZS-SXD
ZS-SXE
ZS-SXF
ZS-SXG
ZS-SXH Stored 2017

A340-600
ZS-SNA Stored 2018
ZS-SNB Stored 2018
ZS-SNC
ZS-SND
ZS-SNE
ZS-SNF
ZS-SNG Stored 2019-2020
ZS-SNH
ZS-SNI

A350

ZS-SDC RTL 2020
ZS-SDD RTL 2020
ZS-SDE RTL 2020
ZS-SDF RTL 2020

B737
ZS-SBA
ZS-SBB

This is my record, not sure about some of the A340's.


To the best of my knowledge SA own 7 aircraft which they have been unsuccessful in selling, 4 A340-600 and 3 A340-300. All other aircraft are leases, which as noted in your list, a majority have been RTL. Any other aircraft are likely stored at JNB on behalf of the owners subject to finding new clients to lease them to.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7293
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:22 pm

andz wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The state wants 10 billion ZAR -- $600 million -- for an airline that would operate 6 used planes and maybe owns 9 airworthy frames total. You could start a new airline from scratch for a fraction of that and not have to deal with all of SA's baggage.

That money includes the severance packages for the 3000+ staff they're laying off as well as paying debts.

What's with the continuous references to "airworthy"?


Right, but that's part of the "baggage" (along with government meddling) to which I was referring. In today's market, $600 million would easily buy more aircraft of the same vintage as SA's fleet and cover the startup costs of a new airline. So if you're a potential private investor, why would you pay all that money to cover debts which are the responsibility of the government shareholder which managed SA into the ground?
 
trees
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:52 am

bennett123 wrote:
A319
ZS-SFG RTL 2020
ZS-SFH RTL 2020
ZS-SFI RTL 2020
ZS-SFJ
ZS-SFK
ZS-SFL
ZS-SFM RTL 2020

A320
ZS-SZA RTL 2020
ZS-SZB RTL 2020
ZS-SZC RTL 2020
ZS-SZD RTL 2020
ZS-SZE RTL 2020
ZS-SZF RTL 2020
ZS-SZG RTL 2020
ZS-SGI RTL 2020
ZS-SGJ

A330
ZS-SXI RTL 2020
ZS-SXJ RTL 2020
ZS-SXK
ZS-SXL RTL 2020
ZS-SXM RTL 2020
ZS-SXU RTL 2020
ZS-SXV
ZS-SXW RTL 2020
ZS-SXX RTL 2020
ZS-SXY RTL 2020
ZS-SXZ RTL 2020

A340-300
ZS-SXA
ZS-SXB
ZS-SXC
ZS-SXD
ZS-SXE
ZS-SXF
ZS-SXG
ZS-SXH Stored 2017

A340-600
ZS-SNA Stored 2018
ZS-SNB Stored 2018
ZS-SNC
ZS-SND
ZS-SNE
ZS-SNF
ZS-SNG Stored 2019-2020
ZS-SNH
ZS-SNI

A350

ZS-SDC RTL 2020
ZS-SDD RTL 2020
ZS-SDE RTL 2020
ZS-SDF RTL 2020

B737
ZS-SBA
ZS-SBB

This is my record, not sure about some of the A340's.


ZS-SFJ/K/L are wfu, assuming they will be returned at some point.

ZS-SZI/J remain in the fleet

ZS-SXK/V have been returned
ZS-SXM is yet to be returned

ZS-SXA/B/C were returned in June
ZS-SXD was wfu in November last year
ZS-SXH was wfu in 2017. Pretty sure it was eventually used as a parts donor

ZS-SNA/B were wfu in 2018
ZS-SNE/H/I were returned in Jan/Feb

ZS-SBA/B are also wfu
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:31 pm

trees wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
A319
ZS-SFG RTL 2020
ZS-SFH RTL 2020
ZS-SFI RTL 2020
ZS-SFJ
ZS-SFK
ZS-SFL
ZS-SFM RTL 2020

A320
ZS-SZA RTL 2020
ZS-SZB RTL 2020
ZS-SZC RTL 2020
ZS-SZD RTL 2020
ZS-SZE RTL 2020
ZS-SZF RTL 2020
ZS-SZG RTL 2020
ZS-SGI RTL 2020
ZS-SGJ

A330
ZS-SXI RTL 2020
ZS-SXJ RTL 2020
ZS-SXK
ZS-SXL RTL 2020
ZS-SXM RTL 2020
ZS-SXU RTL 2020
ZS-SXV
ZS-SXW RTL 2020
ZS-SXX RTL 2020
ZS-SXY RTL 2020
ZS-SXZ RTL 2020

A340-300
ZS-SXA
ZS-SXB
ZS-SXC
ZS-SXD
ZS-SXE
ZS-SXF
ZS-SXG
ZS-SXH Stored 2017

A340-600
ZS-SNA Stored 2018
ZS-SNB Stored 2018
ZS-SNC
ZS-SND
ZS-SNE
ZS-SNF
ZS-SNG Stored 2019-2020
ZS-SNH
ZS-SNI

A350

ZS-SDC RTL 2020
ZS-SDD RTL 2020
ZS-SDE RTL 2020
ZS-SDF RTL 2020

B737
ZS-SBA
ZS-SBB

This is my record, not sure about some of the A340's.


ZS-SFJ/K/L are wfu, assuming they will be returned at some point.

ZS-SZI/J remain in the fleet

ZS-SXK/V have been returned
ZS-SXM is yet to be returned

ZS-SXA/B/C were returned in June
ZS-SXD was wfu in November last year
ZS-SXH was wfu in 2017. Pretty sure it was eventually used as a parts donor

ZS-SNA/B were wfu in 2018
ZS-SNE/H/I were returned in Jan/Feb

ZS-SBA/B are also wfu


So, 2 A320, some of the 8 A343 and 3 A346 remain available for use?
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10729
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:05 pm

trees

Thanks for the update.

However, with only 88 pilots, they will need to reduce further.
 
trees
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:34 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
trees wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
A319
ZS-SFG RTL 2020
ZS-SFH RTL 2020
ZS-SFI RTL 2020
ZS-SFJ
ZS-SFK
ZS-SFL
ZS-SFM RTL 2020

A320
ZS-SZA RTL 2020
ZS-SZB RTL 2020
ZS-SZC RTL 2020
ZS-SZD RTL 2020
ZS-SZE RTL 2020
ZS-SZF RTL 2020
ZS-SZG RTL 2020
ZS-SGI RTL 2020
ZS-SGJ

A330
ZS-SXI RTL 2020
ZS-SXJ RTL 2020
ZS-SXK
ZS-SXL RTL 2020
ZS-SXM RTL 2020
ZS-SXU RTL 2020
ZS-SXV
ZS-SXW RTL 2020
ZS-SXX RTL 2020
ZS-SXY RTL 2020
ZS-SXZ RTL 2020

A340-300
ZS-SXA
ZS-SXB
ZS-SXC
ZS-SXD
ZS-SXE
ZS-SXF
ZS-SXG
ZS-SXH Stored 2017

A340-600
ZS-SNA Stored 2018
ZS-SNB Stored 2018
ZS-SNC
ZS-SND
ZS-SNE
ZS-SNF
ZS-SNG Stored 2019-2020
ZS-SNH
ZS-SNI

A350

ZS-SDC RTL 2020
ZS-SDD RTL 2020
ZS-SDE RTL 2020
ZS-SDF RTL 2020

B737
ZS-SBA
ZS-SBB

This is my record, not sure about some of the A340's.


ZS-SFJ/K/L are wfu, assuming they will be returned at some point.

ZS-SZI/J remain in the fleet

ZS-SXK/V have been returned
ZS-SXM is yet to be returned

ZS-SXA/B/C were returned in June
ZS-SXD was wfu in November last year
ZS-SXH was wfu in 2017. Pretty sure it was eventually used as a parts donor

ZS-SNA/B were wfu in 2018
ZS-SNE/H/I were returned in Jan/Feb

ZS-SBA/B are also wfu


So, 2 A320, some of the 8 A343 and 3 A346 remain available for use?


Yes, 2 A320’s remain and are flying. Of the A343’s 3 remain but only 2 have flown within the last months. And 4 A346’s also still remain. So that makes up a fleet of 9 (or 8, depending on SXG’s status).
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:55 am

trees wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
trees wrote:

ZS-SFJ/K/L are wfu, assuming they will be returned at some point.

ZS-SZI/J remain in the fleet

ZS-SXK/V have been returned
ZS-SXM is yet to be returned

ZS-SXA/B/C were returned in June
ZS-SXD was wfu in November last year
ZS-SXH was wfu in 2017. Pretty sure it was eventually used as a parts donor

ZS-SNA/B were wfu in 2018
ZS-SNE/H/I were returned in Jan/Feb

ZS-SBA/B are also wfu


So, 2 A320, some of the 8 A343 and 3 A346 remain available for use?


Yes, 2 A320’s remain and are flying. Of the A343’s 3 remain but only 2 have flown within the last months. And 4 A346’s also still remain. So that makes up a fleet of 9 (or 8, depending on SXG’s status).


That clears it, thank you.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:45 am

SAA Technical has now withdrawn services to SAA due to unpaid bills.

This will potentially ground the few flights that SAA are operating, freight and repatriation.

Mango seems to be unaffected for now and is operating as normal.

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/c ... 9a2e9226e4
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
grjplanes
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:52 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:35 pm

andz wrote:
SAA Technical has now withdrawn services to SAA due to unpaid bills.

This will potentially ground the few flights that SAA are operating, freight and repatriation.

Mango seems to be unaffected for now and is operating as normal.

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/c ... 9a2e9226e4


Mango is in fact worst affected at the moment...as they are actually in operation, while SAA isn't operating besides few cargo and repat flights.

Mango 737-800 fleet has been grounded since Saturday, they're using Global's A320s to do their scheduled flights (also at much lower frequency of course)
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

grjplanes wrote:
Mango 737-800 fleet has been grounded since Saturday, they're using Global's A320s to do their scheduled flights (also at much lower frequency of course)


Thanks I didn't know that.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
shankly
Posts: 1405
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:27 pm

SAA's death by a 1,000 cuts continues

The appointed business rescue practitioners have put SAA under "care and maintenance" until funding for a restructuring plan can be found....the Govt having failed to find the ZAR10.5bn needed to support the restructuring plan....now there is a surprise.
L1011 - P F M
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:50 pm

shankly wrote:
SAA's death by a 1,000 cuts continues

The appointed business rescue practitioners have put SAA under "care and maintenance" until funding for a restructuring plan can be found....the Govt having failed to find the ZAR10.5bn needed to support the restructuring plan....now there is a surprise.


What a painful death. I do wonder if certain elements in the government cannot come to terms with the fact that it's over and don't want to admit their failure. Honestly, they should cut their losses and leave it to the private sector.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:28 pm

Well, whatever SAA was still doing has now ground to a halt.

South African Airways has suspended all airline operations while its rescuers assess options to obtain urgent funding for the embattled flag-carrier.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/s ... 88.article
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:56 pm

It looks like everyone else here has lost interest in SAA.

In an assessment dated 4th October it is advised that the South African government should pursue a relationship with Ethiopian to have any future for SAA.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ts-airline
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
User avatar
metalinyoni
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:16 pm

With no effective state owned airlines in RSA, Zim and Zambia, time is ripe to start talking about an open skies agreement in SADC. Air Botswana and Air Namibia still operate I think, as SOE’s but they are not major concerns in either country so the govts may not be precious about them. Not sure about Mozambique and LAM.

Discussion for another thread I suppose.
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:24 pm

andz wrote:
It looks like everyone else here has lost interest in SAA.

In an assessment dated 4th October it is advised that the South African government should pursue a relationship with Ethiopian to have any future for SAA.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ts-airline


It's my personal view that some sort of partnership with ET is the way forward. The SA of the past is gone for good.
 
User avatar
75driver
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:08 am

andz wrote:
It looks like everyone else here has lost interest in SAA.

In an assessment dated 4th October it is advised that the South African government should pursue a relationship with Ethiopian to have any future for SAA.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ts-airline


Not sure what the point is. SAA as we knew it is no longer a going concern. What’s there to be interested in? A dead airline with no hope of resurrection? Better to start talking about their asset distribution instead of an airline with no future.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:29 am

andz wrote:
It looks like everyone else here has lost interest in SAA.


No, just haven't posted anything but still reading. Despite the news not being that great.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5376
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:18 am

metalinyoni wrote:
With no effective state owned airlines in RSA, Zim and Zambia, time is ripe to start talking about an open skies agreement in SADC. Air Botswana and Air Namibia still operate I think, as SOE’s but they are not major concerns in either country so the govts may not be precious about them. Not sure about Mozambique and LAM.

Discussion for another thread I suppose.

Air Namibia is certainly an SOE but one with as many problems as SAA.
 
danipawa
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:48 pm

Airbus A320 -232 6439 ZS-SZI South African Airways ferried 10oct20 JNB-DAR on return to Pembroke Group (+ 6478 ZS-SZJ) ex F-WWBF

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2
 
airlinepeanuts
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:49 pm

Wonder what will become or the US office in FLL
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:09 pm

SAA was granted R10.5 billion in today's medium term budget to implement the business rescue plan.

Hopefully my wife will get the severance package she deserves after over 41 years' service.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
shankly
Posts: 1405
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm

The 10.5Bn was borrowed by the SA state

andz, I wish your missus well after such sterling service....but the SA tax payer just keeps picking up the tab for this mess
L1011 - P F M
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4047
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:43 pm

10.5B ZAR is 643M USD, that is alot of money so spend on a carrier in the shape that SAA is. It seems like this money would be better spent on a new flag carrier or even investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:39 pm

Unbelievable. An airline that was already days away from dying when “corona” was still known as a drink. Now a year and billions of Rands later they are still not done flushing more money down the toilet. Let South African Airways die and stop wasting money!
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:05 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.

You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4047
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:23 pm

andz wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.

You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.


Comair isn't in business rescue because of decades of poor management like SAA. It had been profitable for 74 years straight.
It was a confluence of external issues - SAA owes then 1.1B ZAR, they had to deal with the 737MAX debacle and then COVID-19 shut the country down on top of all that.

That said, I hope your wife gets the payments she is due. The SAA staff should be made whole for the labor they performed.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:46 pm

andz wrote:
SAA was granted R10.5 billion in today's medium term budget to implement the business rescue plan.

Hopefully my wife will get the severance package she deserves after over 41 years' service.

Most State and private rescue plans exclude paying out staff, unless there is a risk they can frustrate or bring down the rescue.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:09 pm

I see the $10.5 billion being just the initial funding required to avoid liquidation. How much more will be needed to restart operations with essentially no fleet during a pandemic. The aviation industry is not expecting things to return to 2019 levels for a few more years. The SAA we once knew is gone and the future airline will unless privatized without government interference continue to require bailouts. To me, the whole thing smacks of a vanity project.
The aviation market in SA can be successfully served by private domestic operators such as Safair and Airlink. It will require Comair to resume operations to meet near-term domestic demand increases. International foreign carriers can easily fill the void left by SAA. Mango should be privatized as well.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:26 pm

smartplane wrote:
andz wrote:
SAA was granted R10.5 billion in today's medium term budget to implement the business rescue plan.

Hopefully my wife will get the severance package she deserves after over 41 years' service.

Most State and private rescue plans exclude paying out staff, unless there is a risk they can frustrate or bring down the rescue.

By law here if you are retrenched you are due a minimum of one week's salary per year of service, plus payout for untaken leave and possible other factors.

That said it depends on the company having the funds to pay, if liquidated, tough shit.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:50 pm

andz wrote:
smartplane wrote:
andz wrote:
SAA was granted R10.5 billion in today's medium term budget to implement the business rescue plan.

Hopefully my wife will get the severance package she deserves after over 41 years' service.

Most State and private rescue plans exclude paying out staff, unless there is a risk they can frustrate or bring down the rescue.

By law here if you are retrenched you are due a minimum of one week's salary per year of service, plus payout for untaken leave and possible other factors.

That said it depends on the company having the funds to pay, if liquidated, tough shit.


As much as I've stated a number of times that I'm against any further bailouts for SAA, I would like to think your other half will receive the severance package.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:07 pm

The only guarantee about living in South Africa is that nothing is guaranteed.

SAA workers will have to wait a little while longer for their voluntary severance packages.

The R10,5 billion promised to SAA in the finance minister's medium-term budget speech will only be granted in January, meaning the government needs bridging capital from the banks.

https://www.enca.com/news/Billions-prom ... ed-january
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
9252fly
Posts: 1115
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:43 pm

andz wrote:
The only guarantee about living in South Africa is that nothing is guaranteed.

SAA workers will have to wait a little while longer for their voluntary severance packages.

The R10,5 billion promised to SAA in the finance minister's medium-term budget speech will only be granted in January, meaning the government needs bridging capital from the banks.

https://www.enca.com/news/Billions-prom ... ed-january


I was from media reports getting the impression that banks have so far told the government that they see lending any money to SAA as being for lack of a better word toxic. Yeah, what you said about living in South Africa is true.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:52 pm

Today is exactly a year since I was told by my former company that my position was being made redundant.

I got 2 weeks salary per year of service plus untaken leave plus an extra 6 weeks salary for taking voluntary redundancy (paid in December 2019), I still got my performance bonus for 2019 (hit 5 of 6 KPIs, no the redundancy "wasn't performance related" ) paid in March 2020, this is the difference between a global entity and a corrupt nepotistic disaster where all the SAA "top jobs" starting with Coleman Andrews walked away with millions while the workers get F* all.

Yeah, I'm pissed off.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:46 am

andz wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.

You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.


That's quite a low blow considering the facts. Those two airlines aren't really comparable Andz and I think you probably know it.

All SAA employees also rode the gravy train so long. Just look at the SAA salaries and benefits vs any other airline in SA. It was never sustainable. Not even in a parallel universe with management who were competent, Ever.

For (some of the) employees who's job is to identify and recognise, isolate and mitigate threats, they really fell short on their performance here. The mine shaft they were flying down came with a huge warning at the entrance. Blind is one thing, blaming and deflecting all others is another when no plan B was in place.

Add COVID to the mix and thus the entire lot is on it's arse,
 
trees
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:35 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
andz wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.

You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.


That's quite a low blow considering the facts. Those two airlines aren't really comparable Andz and I think you probably know it.



No it wasn't. Comair was mismanaged straight into business rescue, obviously nowhere near on the scale of SAA but they would not have made it through COVID.

KingOrGod wrote:

All SAA employees also rode the gravy train so long. Just look at the SAA salaries and benefits vs any other airline in SA. It was never sustainable. Not even in a parallel universe with management who were competent, Ever.



You say the two airlines aren't really comparable, which is correct. But then you go ahead and make an even more unfair comparison anyway, so let's reiterate - you cannot compare SAA crew salaries to the other low-cost airlines in SA. SAA is (was) the only airline in the country to operate full service, and long haul international flights on the same scale as other legacies. Making a fair comparison to those carriers would actually reveal that SAA crew were paid less than their overseas counterparts. And those carriers made it work profitably for years before covid.

Saying that all SAA employees have simply "rode the gravy train" where in reality they haven't been paid since March. Not only is it incorrect, it is also ignorant, and definitely the lowest of blows.
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:11 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
andz wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
investing in a competently managed carrier like Conair.

You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.


That's quite a low blow considering the facts. Those two airlines aren't really comparable Andz and I think you probably know it.

All SAA employees also rode the gravy train so long. Just look at the SAA salaries and benefits vs any other airline in SA. It was never sustainable. Not even in a parallel universe with management who were competent, Ever.

For (some of the) employees who's job is to identify and recognise, isolate and mitigate threats, they really fell short on their performance here. The mine shaft they were flying down came with a huge warning at the entrance. Blind is one thing, blaming and deflecting all others is another when no plan B was in place.

Add COVID to the mix and thus the entire lot is on it's arse,

Wait, what? Gravy train? Believe me, if there was a gravy train my wife wasn't on it.

Salary was crap and the "benefits" if we ever got to use them were dodgy at best. ID tickets were always on standby and after the last time we used them 5 years ago to FRA and got boarded by the skin of our teeth we resorted to flying EK and paying full fare.

The incompetent management that ran that airline into the ground were on the gravy train but the regular employees, the ones who are losing their houses because the airline can't pay the severance packages, they are suffering.

Edit to agree 1000% with what Trees said in the post above.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:19 pm

andz wrote:
Wait, what? Gravy train? Believe me, if there was a gravy train my wife wasn't on it.

Salary was crap and the "benefits" if we ever got to use them were dodgy at best. ID tickets were always on standby and after the last time we used them 5 years ago to FRA and got boarded by the skin of our teeth we resorted to flying EK and paying full fare.

The incompetent management that ran that airline into the ground were on the gravy train but the regular employees, the ones who are losing their houses because the airline can't pay the severance packages, they are suffering.

Edit to agree 1000% with what Trees said in the post above.

Sorry but need to disagree with you here. You know the rules of ID tickets-it's always standby. If you want to travel during peak periods or on popular routes you need to do your research carefully about loads or fly to somewhere nearby less popular (hypothetical example: ZRH instead of FRA).
 
andz
Posts: 7772
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:37 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Sorry but need to disagree with you here. You know the rules of ID tickets-it's always standby. If you want to travel during peak periods or on popular routes you need to do your research carefully about loads or fly to somewhere nearby less popular (hypothetical example: ZRH instead of FRA).

Actually no, if you had an ID00 ticket on SA it was "supposed" to be confirmed 72 hours before departure but that never worked.

The point is, the assertion that SAA staff lived high on the horse is total BS.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:40 pm

You should have bought an ID90 that way valid on multiple carriers that have the same ZED agreement. Eh ID00- see my previous comments.
 
evanb
Posts: 932
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:21 am

trees wrote:
No it wasn't. Comair was mismanaged straight into business rescue, obviously nowhere near on the scale of SAA but they would not have made it through COVID.


Correct. Comair had a horrible 18 months before COVID which left them in a poor position to deal with COVID. Had they not had that horrible 18 months things probably would have been very different. Erik Venter left (or got fired depending on who you talk to) as CEO in May 2019 following several months of infighting. Several Directors left before and after Erik did. Erik was replaced by joint CEOs, Wrenelle Stander and Glenn Orsmond, only for Glenn to go the same way as Erik a few months later. It really wasn't great timing.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:21 pm

andz wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
Sorry but need to disagree with you here. You know the rules of ID tickets-it's always standby. If you want to travel during peak periods or on popular routes you need to do your research carefully about loads or fly to somewhere nearby less popular (hypothetical example: ZRH instead of FRA).

Actually no, if you had an ID00 ticket on SA it was "supposed" to be confirmed 72 hours before departure but that never worked.

The point is, the assertion that SAA staff lived high on the horse is total BS.


Isn't that a matter of perspective? I am sure for many South Africans air travel is still a distant ambition? So having the ability (and means) for international travel on nominal fare or free tickets surely feels like a life of luxury to many of your compatriots?
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:59 pm

trees wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
andz wrote:
You mean Comair who are also in business rescue.


That's quite a low blow considering the facts. Those two airlines aren't really comparable Andz and I think you probably know it.



No it wasn't. Comair was mismanaged straight into business rescue, obviously nowhere near on the scale of SAA but they would not have made it through COVID.

KingOrGod wrote:

All SAA employees also rode the gravy train so long. Just look at the SAA salaries and benefits vs any other airline in SA. It was never sustainable. Not even in a parallel universe with management who were competent, Ever.



You say the two airlines aren't really comparable, which is correct. But then you go ahead and make an even more unfair comparison anyway, so let's reiterate - you cannot compare SAA crew salaries to the other low-cost airlines in SA. SAA is (was) the only airline in the country to operate full service, and long haul international flights on the same scale as other legacies. Making a fair comparison to those carriers would actually reveal that SAA crew were paid less than their overseas counterparts. And those carriers made it work profitably for years before covid.

Saying that all SAA employees have simply "rode the gravy train" where in reality they haven't been paid since March. Not only is it incorrect, it is also ignorant, and definitely the lowest of blows.


Ignorant, no. Perspective, yes. Let's not drag corona into the demise of spoories and salaries not being paid. That's global at the moment, maybe you haven't heard corona is in countries other than RSA. (I couldn't pay my mortgage three months this year either - I had to adapt and find other avenues of revenue. Corona bit a lot of people in the ass - savings only go so far). It may be on SAA's death certificate, but the cANCer had been at an advanced stage for a LONG time. Maybe you didn't hear about all the billions of Rands spoories were getting every year or three? In which universe does this not trigger alarm bells?

I wasn't comparing SAA to Kulula, (or Nationwide, or SunAir, or FliteStar, or 1time, or any other airline that... oh you get the picture, you know, that had to turn a profit to exist instead of getting nearly annual billions in handouts). I know people who work(ed) for both SAA and over at CAW. Nevermind cockpit crew, as far as I know, any salaried person at SAA got more than the equivalent over at CAW. And last I flew, I got full service on CAW/BA, so I call BS on you there that your beloved SAA was the "only full service carrier". Kulula no, but CAW/BA yes. Who cares if they flew long haul, and even then, on a scale of which legacy exactly? and what does that even matter? They may have burned JetA1 long haul, but at who's expense?

So I guess you're right, gravy PLANE is more apt. Did you ever take a LOOK at ORTIA with open eyes. And see how many springbok outfits walking or sitting around doing NOTHING? After spending some time in Europe and their airports it was a sight to behold landing in JNB. You may not like the observations, but that's how it is. And I know enough crew who regularly made use of the 00 confirmed tickets. Obviously if you're going to FRA at Christmas for example, on a 00 for example is a touch dof.

You cannot splash "18 bad months of CAW" to whitewash over the 20-odd bad YEARS over at SAA. Staff got sucked down the tube I will agree. My point is the writing was on the wall for a long time at spoories my friend. So it was great when it was going well, and now others are ignorant when it isn't?

Also, don't drag international carriers into it, go work for one then - and you'll see what efficiency is. Comparing/converting Rand to Dollar/Euro/Pound is a pointless exercise. I earn less than most other international people in my field. But where I live, I get enough. I cannot bitch about or use their salaries in an argument when I don't (a) work for them, or (b) live in their country. The local market is the local market.
 
shankly
Posts: 1405
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:39 am

So the madness rolls on

Pravn Gordhan announced yesterday that the 10.5Bn Rand bailout would probably rise by about 4Bn Rand "The total cost of restructuring is 14Bn Rand". Notable that the Rand tanked yesterday wiping out recent steady gains.

If this were a Netflex series people would have started turning it off, as its too far fetched now
L1011 - P F M
 
trees
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:58 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
trees wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:

That's quite a low blow considering the facts. Those two airlines aren't really comparable Andz and I think you probably know it.



No it wasn't. Comair was mismanaged straight into business rescue, obviously nowhere near on the scale of SAA but they would not have made it through COVID.

KingOrGod wrote:

All SAA employees also rode the gravy train so long. Just look at the SAA salaries and benefits vs any other airline in SA. It was never sustainable. Not even in a parallel universe with management who were competent, Ever.



You say the two airlines aren't really comparable, which is correct. But then you go ahead and make an even more unfair comparison anyway, so let's reiterate - you cannot compare SAA crew salaries to the other low-cost airlines in SA. SAA is (was) the only airline in the country to operate full service, and long haul international flights on the same scale as other legacies. Making a fair comparison to those carriers would actually reveal that SAA crew were paid less than their overseas counterparts. And those carriers made it work profitably for years before covid.

Saying that all SAA employees have simply "rode the gravy train" where in reality they haven't been paid since March. Not only is it incorrect, it is also ignorant, and definitely the lowest of blows.


I wasn't comparing SAA to Kulula, (or Nationwide, or SunAir, or FliteStar, or 1time, or any other airline that... oh you get the picture, you know, that had to turn a profit to exist instead of getting nearly annual billions in handouts). I know people who work(ed) for both SAA and over at CAW. Nevermind cockpit crew, as far as I know, any salaried person at SAA got more than the equivalent over at CAW. And last I flew, I got full service on CAW/BA, so I call BS on you there that your beloved SAA was the "only full service carrier". Kulula no, but CAW/BA yes. Who cares if they flew long haul, and even then, on a scale of which legacy exactly? and what does that even matter? They may have burned JetA1 long haul, but at who's expense?


Alright, there is a lot to unpack here so lets take it step-by-step.

You are correct that SAA and Comair are both full service airlines, but as I said Comair does not operate long haul services. Yes SAA pays better than Comair, but those airlines don't operate on the same scale. SAA competes with other legacies such as Lufthansa, British Airways, Delta, and Qantas etc. on their long haul routes, their salaries are benchmarked against those airlines, and are lower.

KingOrGod wrote:
So I guess you're right, gravy PLANE is more apt. Did you ever take a LOOK at ORTIA with open eyes. And see how many springbok outfits walking or sitting around doing NOTHING? After spending some time in Europe and their airports it was a sight to behold landing in JNB. You may not like the observations, but that's how it is. And I know enough crew who regularly made use of the 00 confirmed tickets. Obviously if you're going to FRA at Christmas for example, on a 00 for example is a touch dof.


You seem to have a strong emotional reaction to what's happening at SAA without looking at facts. Observing JNB and seeing lots of SAA staff is not a keen observation, being the largest carrier based at JNB one should expect that. It is also not a secret that SAA is overstaffed. You should not be attacking the staff, but government policies and management for letting the company shrink to a point where it became overstaffed to the level it is now.

KingOrGod wrote:
You cannot splash "18 bad months of CAW" to whitewash over the 20-odd bad YEARS over at SAA. Staff got sucked down the tube I will agree. My point is the writing was on the wall for a long time at spoories my friend. So it was great when it was going well, and now others are ignorant when it isn't?


Well 18 Months is all it took for Comair... And I don't think I need to explain to you why SAA has survived so long with their bad management and inefficiencies.
SAAPA have been instrumental in fighting corruption and mismanagement at the airline and have made huge strides in winning their case against ex-chair Dudu Myeni. Calling them part of the "Gravy Plane" is indeed ignorant.

KingOrGod wrote:
Also, don't drag international carriers into it, go work for one then - and you'll see what efficiency is. Comparing/converting Rand to Dollar/Euro/Pound is a pointless exercise. I earn less than most other international people in my field. But where I live, I get enough. I cannot bitch about or use their salaries in an argument when I don't (a) work for them, or (b) live in their country. The local market is the local market.


SAA is an international carrier, operating in international markets, against other international carriers. Why not drag international carriers into it? Airlines benchmark against each other all the time, its industry practice.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25248
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Updated: SAA shrinks even further, laying off staff

Mon May 03, 2021 3:15 pm

SAA exits administration after 17 months.

South Africa's struggling national airline South African Airways (SAA) on Friday exited a local form of bankruptcy protection called business rescue after roughly 17 months.

Its administrators said in a statement that they had filed a notice of "substantial implementation" of a business rescue plan with South Africa's Companies and Intellectual Property Commission.

That meant they had "effectively discharged the business rescue and handed over the operations of SAA back to its board and executive team", adding SAA was now solvent.


https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/so ... 021-05-01/
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