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Midwestindy
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British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:09 pm

https://viewfromthewing.com/post-brexit ... ic-routes/

"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco. Are we going to get that? There is no chance the Americans are going to give us those rights to allow British carriers to break into the US domestic market, which is fantastically lucrative."


While it is HIGHLY unlikely that US would allow a deal to allow BA to operate domestic flights, it certainly is an interesting topic to consider since the UK is negotiating a new trade agreement with the US. The need for such flights is also negated by the fact that they have the AA partnership in place....
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Ishrion
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:11 pm

Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:13 pm

There are a lot of international airlines that would love to fly US domestic. That doesn’t mean it will happen.

Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:23 pm

So we're supposed to take the musings of a former Ambassador and Zoology student seriously?

I think he should stick to pissing off Donald Trump, he was clearly better at doing that.
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MIflyer12
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:25 pm

Don't underestimate the Trump administration's petty readiness to slap down (unionized) U.S. carriers. You're right about the U.K. having nothing comparable to offer.
 
CALMSP
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:26 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Don't underestimate the Trump administration's petty readiness to slap down (unionized) U.S. carriers. You're right about the U.K. having nothing comparable to offer.


considering this administration is about its people first, there's no way this would ever happen.
 
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:27 pm

Hahahahahahahahaha
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chepos
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:31 pm

The title of this thread seems a bit misleading, considering this is a former UK ambassador who appears to be quoted in the article (from what I read).


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ChrisNH38
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:38 pm

This would make the ME3 kerfuffle look like a game of checkers.
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MaverickM11
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:49 pm

No they're not. The end.
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reltney
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:49 pm

It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..
Noun....the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

Just to help...

First Freedom of the Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to fly across its territory without landing (also known as a First Freedom Right).

Second Freedom of the Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State or States to land in its territory for non-traffic purposes (also known as a Second Freedom Right).

Third Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from the home State of the carrier (also known as a Third Freedom Right).

Fourth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic destined for the home State of the carrier (also known as a Fourth Freedom Right).

Fifth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down and to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from or destined to a third State (also known as a Fifth Freedom Right).

ICAO characterizes all "freedoms" beyond the Fifth as "so-called" because only the first five "freedoms" have been officially recognized as such by international treaty.

Sixth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting, via the home State of the carrier, traffic moving between two other States (also known as a Sixth Freedom Right). The so-called Sixth Freedom of the Air, unlike the first five freedoms, is not incorporated as such into any widely recognized air service agreements such as the "Five Freedoms Agreement".

Seventh Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State, of transporting traffic between the territory of the granting State and any third State with no requirement to include on such operation any point in the territory of the recipient State, i.e the service need not connect to or be an extension of any service to/from the home State of the carrier.

Eighth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State (also known as a Eighth Freedom Right or "consecutive cabotage").

Ninth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege of transporting cabotage traffic of the granting State on a service performed entirely within the territory of the granting State (also known as a Ninth Freedom Right or "stand alone" cabotage).

There you have it....

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airbazar
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:53 pm

BA can already do that, just like QF currently does it between LAX and JFK. The key word in that statement is "them", as in the passengers that originate in London. They don't do it because there's no market for it. There is absolutely nothing stopping BA from flying LHR-BOS-STL-BOS-LHR.
"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco."
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..

It's an ironic statement since so many European countries currently allow cabotage and Ryanair is one of the biggest benefactors of cabotage rights :)
 
jetwet1
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:00 pm

There is no way this is happening, but, would BA use it's widebody aircraft for these flights or base narrowbodies over here ?

And can you imagine the look on the faces of the people booked in C/J when they see the Euro business cabin on the narrowbodies.
 
TC957
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:05 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.

Don't worry - you're not missing much.
 
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:07 pm

TC957 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.

Don't worry - you're not missing much.



You beat me too it..!!!!!
 
StTim
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:09 pm

Many yeasr ago I used to fly BA to Chicago regularly. I remember there were three flights back to LHR each evening. One of these flights originated in Houston, Flew up to Chicago and then back to LHR.
 
Bluegrass60
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:14 pm

I could see this happening with secondary markets....and it would be welcomed. example: LHR-SDF-STL-MCI-STL-SDF-LHR
 
tonystan
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:19 pm

BA has operated US domestic routes off and on a number of times over the years just minus pick up rights. DTW-IAH, ORD-IAH, PHX-SAN or just the ones that come to mind.
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Don't underestimate the Trump administration's petty readiness to slap down (unionized) U.S. carriers. You're right about the U.K. having nothing comparable to offer.


Not only that, they also have an interest in destabilizing the EU since they prefer bilateral trade agreements (where they will almost certainly have more financial = negotiating power) over agreements with groups of states (where such an imbalance may not be given).

Therefore, by granting such freedoms, they could set an example for incentives they have to offer to states that have left the EU and now negotiate individual trading and traffic conditions with the US.
Needless to say, this would likely remain a one-off (especially given the US-UK "special relationship"), but obviously there's nothing stopping this administration from plainly lying and advertising similar advantages to other EU-skeptic governments.
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Don't underestimate the Trump administration's petty readiness to slap down (unionized) U.S. carriers. You're right about the U.K. having nothing comparable to offer.

Such a proposal would die in Congress a quick death.
 
richierich
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:25 pm

StTim wrote:
Many yeasr ago I used to fly BA to Chicago regularly. I remember there were three flights back to LHR each evening. One of these flights originated in Houston, Flew up to Chicago and then back to LHR.


Correct! I think ended about a decade ago. [I always wondered what those ORD-DFW flights were like - did BA serve snacks in Economy? Why did they do this add-on when DFW was already served directly?]

Of course, these sorts of routes used to exist many years ago. A long time ago, when I was a very young richierich, I flew LHR-BOS-PHL on a BA B741, and I'm guessing this was not the only add-ons they flew in North America. As fuel became a lot more expensive, aircraft became better tailored for medium-haul flights to smaller markets (such as the B767), and airline coalitions/alliances became a reality, these flights have became unnecessary. It's expensive to fly a less-than-full aircraft on a segment of any length.

Qantas only does it to JFK because that's the only realistic way they can serve New York. Once there is an aircraft capable of flying JFK-SYD non-stop, without any significant restrictions, the US transcon flights will cease immediately.
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braniff2hav
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:27 pm

I find no appeal of flying BA within the US. I mean essentially it's already like flying AA. There is no difference in my eyes or heart that I see with BA. Blah.
 
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:28 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
I could see this happening with secondary markets....and it would be welcomed. example: LHR-SDF-STL-MCI-STL-SDF-LHR


London to SDF? Then two add-on flights? Even with pick-up rights, keep dreaming...there is zero chance that routing would ever happen.
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2travel2know2
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:34 pm

BA flying robin-pattern flights in the States to add U.S. major secondary markets - possible and feasible.
BA flying cabotage flight in the States - absurd, unless UK and the States negotiate the same kind of aviation agreement UK had with the European Union.
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ScottB
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:35 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.


And if you want an experience comparable to BA's short-haul product, just get on NK, F9, or G4.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:35 pm

This will happen the same time EasyJet start flying A380s on domestic routes in the UK. In other words, never!
 
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eta unknown
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:37 pm

DID ANYBODY ACTUALLY READ THE ARTICLE?!? The person clearly says BA would love to fly US domestic routes AND ALSO SAYS it will never happen because of cabotage.

BA LHR-ORD-IAH only existed as a creative way of linking IAH and LHR under the Bermuda II bilateral. Remember the nonstop IAH flights had to use LGW.
 
D L X
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:41 pm

First, let's use the actual source, not Gary Leff.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ambassador

Second, Nope. Unless BA is talking about taking passengers from outside the US on a leg within the US, this will never happen. But I'm assuming that this is not what BA is talking about -- they (according to this ex-ambassador) want into the US domestic market. That's a big fat nope. Not for BA, not for AF, not for SQ, not for KE, not for even Air Canada. And if not for AC, not for anyone.
 
ual763
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:42 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://viewfromthewing.com/post-brexit-the-u-k-wants-british-airways-to-fly-u-s-domestic-routes/

"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco. Are we going to get that? There is no chance the Americans are going to give us those rights to allow British carriers to break into the US domestic market, which is fantastically lucrative."


While it is HIGHLY unlikely that US would allow a deal to allow BA to operate domestic flights, it certainly is an interesting topic to consider since the UK is negotiating a new trade agreement with the US. The need for such flights is also negated by the fact that they have the AA partnership in place....


Well, will they allow US based citizen pilots to operate them? If so, then cool.
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ual763
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:45 pm

Polot wrote:
There are a lot of international airlines that would love to fly US domestic. That doesn’t mean it will happen.

Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


Could they not offer slots at LHR to places other than the US?
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hiflyeras
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:47 pm

When hell freezes over. What is this, April Fool's Day?
 
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calstanford
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:00 pm

Why would Americans want to fly "British" Airways. It's not exactly a top airline by any means. No better than the US domestic ones. And they'd never have the same frequency as a US domestic airline, so then why bother?
 
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ua900
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:00 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
There is no way this is happening, but, would BA use it's widebody aircraft for these flights or base narrowbodies over here ?

And can you imagine the look on the faces of the people booked in C/J when they see the Euro business cabin on the narrowbodies.


Safe to say it won't be the Concorde. Maybe the Boom Technology Overture for Premium Transcons *if* they commit to fund it :-) Package deal with special Cabotage rights since they'd be investing billions and billions in U.S. jobs and technology. Secondary tier US cities could be served by used 319s / 320s with Euro Business and hot water for sale, and if some of these are super successful they could get ex-BMI 321s with flatbeds. Not sure if Brits could warm up to the term "unsweet tea", but I'm sure they could try provided their hot water sales go really well.

Boom Technology Overture might could be a good A318 replacement as well, especially if the LCY runway could be lengthened to 10,000 ft, going across Connaught and Redgrave and crossing the Thames (Kinda like GIB, except with a bridge) into that useless park across the river.

airbazar wrote:
BA can already do that, just like QF currently does it between LAX and JFK. The key word in that statement is "them", as in the passengers that originate in London. They don't do it because there's no market for it. There is absolutely nothing stopping BA from flying LHR-BOS-STL-BOS-LHR.
"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco."
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..

It's an ironic statement since so many European countries currently allow cabotage and Ryanair is one of the biggest benefactors of cabotage rights :)


...and given who they are, how they fly, how they pay their crews, and so much more, is exactly why you won't see cabotage in the US. You won't see Interjet or Volaris flying domestic US flights either.

hiflyeras wrote:
When hell freezes over. What is this, April Fool's Day?


Much like Halloween starting right after Labor Day, April Fools might come around earlier with each year as well. IMO they could have waited until *after* Valentine's Day though :-)
Last edited by ua900 on Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChrisEtihad272
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:03 pm

this would mean the US would finally have 4* airline doing domestic routes ;)
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:04 pm

ual763 wrote:
Polot wrote:
There are a lot of international airlines that would love to fly US domestic. That doesn’t mean it will happen.

Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


Could they not offer slots at LHR to places other than the US?

US carriers already have 5th freedom rights out of LHR.
 
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nighthawk
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:18 pm

I can see this happening eventually... but only after the UK removes ownership restrictions for US based companies. It may be British Airways on the side, but will be owned by AA...
 
dstblj52
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:23 pm

nighthawk wrote:
I can see this happening eventually... but only after the UK removes ownership restrictions for US based companies. It may be British Airways on the side, but will be owned by AA...

The only way that happens is if it's a bilateral but I do suspect it will eventually go that way globally just like it went with the shipping lines
 
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:25 pm

braniff2hav wrote:
I find no appeal of flying BA within the US. I mean essentially it's already like flying AA. There is no difference in my eyes or heart that I see with BA. Blah.


BA's domestic/Euro hard product (as is the case with most European legacies) is far inferior to the US3. 30-inch pitch (or very close to that) all the way back, no E+ or even domestic F seats.
 
jetwet1
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:28 pm

Polot wrote:
US carriers already have 5th freedom rights out of LHR.


I just had that pop into my head as well, I can't think of any routes being operated now, but could the UK threaten to revoke those rights unless the US let's BA in ?

Not that that would persuade the US to open up.
 
alfa164
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:29 pm

TC957 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.

Don't worry - you're not missing much.


If my BA flight from LHR to BRU was any indication....you would probably choose Spirit over BA...

;)
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:36 pm

maybe to serve two unserved routes but they would never be allowed to carry people on MCO-JFK-LHR. Even STL-BUF-LHR i can't see there being a real chance.
 
airbazar
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:46 pm

ua900 wrote:

hiflyeras wrote:
When hell freezes over. What is this, April Fool's Day?


Much like Halloween starting right after Labor Day, April Fools might come around earlier with each year as well. IMO they could have waited until *after* Valentine's Day though :-)


Be careful. We had Virgin [America] flying in the U.S. for a while. Yes their ownership structure was different but there was no denying who was really in charge and they proved that there are ways around it. David Neeleman now is part owner of a EU carrier and nothing stopping him from becoming a majority owner. Bottom line is, if a foreign airline really wants to setup a U.S. domestic operation, it's not that difficult to find a few surrogate "investors" with American citizenship.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:47 pm

Not gonna happen, Elvis is far too busy doing come back tours to pilot the plane.
Last edited by readytotaxi on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chunhimlai
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:54 pm

Some possible ways:
1. What QF operated in LAX, but in much larger scale.
2. Start a business called British Airway American like Comair
Last edited by chunhimlai on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:55 pm

BA's short haul service in Europe is pretty horrible. Charge for afternoon tea and drinks. But if they fly in the U.S., it might be considered an "international flight" with better food and drinks.
 
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LH748
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:56 pm

Makes absolutely no sense
They can serve every destination very well with the AA codeshare flights
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yowza
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:04 pm

Though the US government at present does appear to be - how do I put this - more malleable/manipulatable than previous administrations in regards to foreign interests and flexible in assessing their own conflicts of interest I don't see going anywhere. Maybe at a real stretch there could be a replica of the Comair model as applied in South Africa with BA having a minority interest with people stateside owning the bulk (BA America operated by Trump Shuttle anyone?) but I think we're getting pretty divorced from reality...

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JetBuddy
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
BA can already do that, just like QF currently does it between LAX and JFK. The key word in that statement is "them", as in the passengers that originate in London. They don't do it because there's no market for it. There is absolutely nothing stopping BA from flying LHR-BOS-STL-BOS-LHR.
"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco."
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..

It's an ironic statement since so many European countries currently allow cabotage and Ryanair is one of the biggest benefactors of cabotage rights :)


Exactly. This is already happening. Europe allows it. And the US allows Pacific/Oceanic carriers to do it.

Boris and Donald will be hatching out a new trade deal soon, so who knows. The UK will be looking to strengthen ties across the Atlantic, and vice versa.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8787
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:15 pm

Lots of (deliberate) mischaracterising of BA short haul on here. They do buy-on-board in economy, and have (like all European carriers) economy style seating in Club Europe (with a blocked middle seat) because their average flight time is an hour (and max three hours — ATH, DME) and the competition is easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian, all LCCs who not only do buy-on-board but charge for boarding passes and hand luggage. BA are in the business of separating customers from their money. If the market had any interest in gourmet food in economy (Club Europe food btw is excellent) or big laz-e-boy seats at the front, they’d provide it. The idea that they’re a “bad” airline because they respond to market demand is ridiculous.

Re BA‘s old US domestic tag ons, they used to fly LHR-ORD-IAH because nonstop IAH services had to go to LGW due to the bilateral at the time (UK wouldn’t allow new US carriers into LHR so the US wouldn’t allow the UK new US gateways); by operating IAH as a tag on a LHR flight (eg ORD), they could offer Houstonites a LHR option (albeit with a stop enroute) as well as a nonstop LGW.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:18 pm

I heard that Virgin Atlantic is interested in flying to the moon. Unfortunately reality gets in the way sometimes...

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