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Northpole
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:23 pm

airbazar wrote:
BA can already do that, just like QF currently does it between LAX and JFK. The key word in that statement is "them", as in the passengers that originate in London. They don't do it because there's no market for it. There is absolutely nothing stopping BA from flying LHR-BOS-STL-BOS-LHR.
"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco."
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..

It's an ironic statement since so many European countries currently allow cabotage and Ryanair is one of the biggest benefactors of cabotage rights :)


Most likely not ironi - probably someone who thinks Europe is one nation - cabotage is common in Europe as far as passenger-transports as well as cargo is concerned.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:27 pm

Love to Britain and the British. But entertaining the topic: is British Airways or England on record fighting for the US3 against the ME3? Doubt it. A prerequisite to even entertain a grain of sand of cabotage must be the consideration of that airline's country's historical stance on fighting for U.S. aviation interests. But the day this is allowed is the day the U.S. doesn't care about national security. The airline industry in effect is an extension of our armed forces in many ways.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:27 pm

I love how discussions on cabotage completely ignore consumers - and the pros and cons for them.

Makes you wonder if airlines exist to serve consumers, or if consumers exist to serve airlines (like some kind of giant government enforced welfare scheme).
 
ElPistolero
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:32 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Love to Britain and the British. But entertaining the topic: is British Airways or England on record fighting for the US3 against the ME3? Doubt it. A prerequisite to even entertain a grain of sand of cabotage must be the consideration of that airline's country's historical stance on fighting for U.S. aviation interests. But the day this is allowed is the day the U.S. doesn't care about national security. The airline industry in effect is an extension of our armed forces in many ways.


Define “US Aviation Interests”. Does it include everyone who benefits from aviation (including non-aviation companies and consumers), or is it limited to US airlines and their employees?
 
Arion640
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:40 pm

Fake news. Misleading thread title, could this be changed mods?
 
WAC
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:51 pm

Brexit Britain going back to the times pre 1973 economy, infrastructure and aviation transportation...back to the good days where you could fly "British" every and anywhere.
 
alfa164
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:53 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of (deliberate) mischaracterising of BA short haul on here.


No mischaracterization - deliberate or otherwise - when even you admit BA is scraping the bottom-of-the-barrell in its intra-Europe flights:

cedarjet wrote:
They do buy-on-board in economy, and have (like all European carriers) economy style seating in Club Europe (with a blocked middle seat) because their average flight time is an hour (and max three hours — ATH, DME) and the competition is easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian,


And yet, on the route I flew, the competition is not "easyJet, Ryanair, and Norwegian"; it was Brussels Airlines, which, unfortunately, was full... and BA had lots of open seats. That tells a story in itself...

:roll:


ScottB wrote:
And if you want an experience comparable to BA's short-haul product, just get on NK, F9, or G4.


:checkmark:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:59 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
No they're not. The end.


Exactly! That's what the AA partnership is for. BA doesn't even want to expand their Manchester operation, let alone start up a domestic US operation.

Load of nonsense!
 
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airzim
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:04 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Lots of (deliberate) mischaracterising of BA short haul on here. They do buy-on-board in economy, and have (like all European carriers) economy style seating in Club Europe (with a blocked middle seat) because their average flight time is an hour (and max three hours — ATH, DME) and the competition is easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian, all LCCs who not only do buy-on-board but charge for boarding passes and hand luggage. BA are in the business of separating customers from their money. If the market had any interest in gourmet food in economy (Club Europe food btw is excellent) or big laz-e-boy seats at the front, they’d provide it. The idea that they’re a “bad” airline because they respond to market demand is ridiculous.

Re BA‘s old US domestic tag ons, they used to fly LHR-ORD-IAH because nonstop IAH services had to go to LGW due to the bilateral at the time (UK wouldn’t allow new US carriers into LHR so the US wouldn’t allow the UK new US gateways); by operating IAH as a tag on a LHR flight (eg ORD), they could offer Houstonites a LHR option (albeit with a stop enroute) as well as a nonstop LGW.


I had the unfortunate experience flying BA from LHR-ATH connecting from a US long haul. Closer to 4 hours. I will never fly BA intra-Europe again. They charge for water and coffee (expensive too). Recently flew LH and AF and they are drastically different. You even get a small snack, and wine/beer for no charge.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:10 pm

Compass (Airlines) d/b/a as British Airways has a nice ring!

Comair-i-fication maybe, and I don’t mean the CVG Comair!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
jfk777
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:16 pm

In these days of 787 such topics are silly. The 787 has allowed BA to fly to Charleston, Nashville, Pittsburgh and Portland. Why would BA even want to fly to JFK on go on to St. Louis and San Francisco. The 787 allows no stops to STL and BA has been flying double daily to SFO with even A380.
 
BA777FO
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:17 pm

airzim wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Lots of (deliberate) mischaracterising of BA short haul on here. They do buy-on-board in economy, and have (like all European carriers) economy style seating in Club Europe (with a blocked middle seat) because their average flight time is an hour (and max three hours — ATH, DME) and the competition is easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian, all LCCs who not only do buy-on-board but charge for boarding passes and hand luggage. BA are in the business of separating customers from their money. If the market had any interest in gourmet food in economy (Club Europe food btw is excellent) or big laz-e-boy seats at the front, they’d provide it. The idea that they’re a “bad” airline because they respond to market demand is ridiculous.

Re BA‘s old US domestic tag ons, they used to fly LHR-ORD-IAH because nonstop IAH services had to go to LGW due to the bilateral at the time (UK wouldn’t allow new US carriers into LHR so the US wouldn’t allow the UK new US gateways); by operating IAH as a tag on a LHR flight (eg ORD), they could offer Houstonites a LHR option (albeit with a stop enroute) as well as a nonstop LGW.


I had the unfortunate experience flying BA from LHR-ATH connecting from a US long haul. Closer to 4 hours. I will never fly BA intra-Europe again. They charge for water and coffee (expensive too). Recently flew LH and AF and they are drastically different. You even get a small snack, and wine/beer for no charge.


They charge you for a bottle of Highland Spring (or is it Harrogate Spring now?) But you can request a cup of potable water and it will be provided free of charge. The coffee is no more expensive than at Costa or Starbucks. In fact it's usually cheaper.

The difference comes down to competition. London is the most competitive aviation market in the world. BA has competition on virtually all of ita short haul routes from Heathrow or another London airport by another airline. How much competition does Delta face on its nonstop routes out of Detroit or Minneapolis? Or American from DFW? Most of the competition involves a connection. The prices of US domestic flying are considerably higher too - I can often get return fares to/from Heathrow to Europe for under £100 return. In the US I've struggled to get between Dallas and Houston for much under 3 times the price.

The typical European consumer, especially millenials, are often willing to forgo an inch or two of seat pitch and a vegan wrap in order to save themselves another £5. The US market hasn't quite reached that point yet, especially as the US is at least a decade ahead in terms of consolidation, something Europe has only really started to embark upon and still has many more major carriers than the US.
 
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OA412
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:24 pm

Access to the US domestic market has long been sought by the UK side. Before EU/US open skies, the UK repeatedly tried to tie expanded access to LHR with UK carrier access to the domestic US market. It's not going to happen. And frankly, I don't see why UK carriers would even want access considering they'll never have economies of scale to actually make any money in the domestic US market.
TC957 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Avgeek perspective, this would be an amazing opportunity to fly on BA if they’re given rights to transport passengers within the states.

Don't worry - you're not missing much.

Indeed, BAs intra-Europe service is terrible and worse than the US3, WN, B6, and AS. It's only the US ULCCs that offer service levels comparable to BA intra-Europe service.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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par13del
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:28 pm

jfk777 wrote:
In these days of 787 such topics are silly. The 787 has allowed BA to fly to Charleston, Nashville, Pittsburgh and Portland. Why would BA even want to fly to JFK on go on to St. Louis and San Francisco. The 787 allows no stops to STL and BA has been flying double daily to SFO with even A380.

Well let's take this example, BA operate 2 morning flights into JFK and BOS using two slots at LHR.
If they combine both flights into 1 A380 which does JFK then BOS they free up a LHR slot for some other destination, any local traffic between JFK and BOS is just additional income and the entire trip does not have to involve sharing income with any partner.

Other destinations for which that could work is MIA, TPA, MCO, SFO, LAX, DFW, the sky is the limit, BA would be able to hit much more USA destination while using less LHR slots.
Who knows, this may be the issue to resurrect the A380 or give it a BA secondary market.

Now will something like this happen, I would hope not, but from a technical point, I can see where there would be interest.
 
747megatop
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:33 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://viewfromthewing.com/post-brexit-the-u-k-wants-british-airways-to-fly-u-s-domestic-routes/

"British Airways would love to be able to pick up passengers in London, fly them to, say, New York or Boston, and fly them on to St Louis and finish up with them in San Francisco. Are we going to get that? There is no chance the Americans are going to give us those rights to allow British carriers to break into the US domestic market, which is fantastically lucrative."


While it is HIGHLY unlikely that US would allow a deal to allow BA to operate domestic flights, it certainly is an interesting topic to consider since the UK is negotiating a new trade agreement with the US. The need for such flights is also negated by the fact that they have the AA partnership in place....

Not going to happen. It's a pipe dream.
 
Flaps
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:03 pm

Its not really as ridiculous an idea as it was in the past. Unlikely, yes, as illustrated by many above. While they will certainly never be able to operate freely within the US, its not entirely inconceivable that they wouldn't be able to operate domestic tags to combine international flights. Especially so if AA could code share and revenue share on the domestic leg. For example BA could do MSY-PIT-LHR and AA could sell domestic seats on the MSY-PIT leg. Its not possible now but.....With Brexit and some parties looking to expanded economic relations between the US, UK and Canada we could see some interesting things that would have been inconceivable in the past.

Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? Maybe not entirely.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Kind of might add it’s been done before, minus the paint!

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Compass (Airlines) d/b/a as British Airways has a nice ring!

Comair-i-fication maybe, and I don’t mean the CVG Comair!




Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
SueD
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:17 pm

Limited cabotage demands have been part of the UK demands for more than thirty years . The key bargaining chip in bilateral negotiations was given away for virtually nothing that of unfettered US. carrier access to Heathrow . Cabotage was supposed to form apart of the second stage of the open sky’s treaty but quietly got canned

The UK position hasn’t changed through
 
N292UX
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:30 pm

They're already (basically do it). Call themselves "American Airlines" and have 9 hubs at DFW, CLT, ORD, PHL, MIA, PHX, DCA, LAX, LGA, and JFK.
 
vedatil4
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:56 pm

reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..
Noun....the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

Cheers..


Since we're on this subject of cabotage, there's an international "in-transit" terminal currently under construction at the Tijuana Airport south of San Diego which can easily be accessed from the US side of the border using the CBX bridge. There was an entire thread about the possibility of "almost cabotage" that could happen there: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1431465&p=21671953&hilit=CBX#p21671953 It should be completed by the end of 2022.

British Airways might be able to fly LHR-JFK-TIJ or TIJ-JFK-LHR in about two to three years. People on the San Diego side of the border could possibly use a British carrier (or some other non-US carrier) to effectively fly to New York and back someday.

I doubt BA would act on that opportunity but another carrier such as Norwegian might. Flights in/out of TIJ are already being marketed as being for San Diego w/CBX.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:01 pm

As I got to thinking about this, the British Airways is well known and a very respected brand across the world and the United States.

Because the US has been a virtual sieve of legal and illegal foreign national entry for the last 15 years or more... BA seeking to capitalize upon their brand makes total sense in English speaking North America and very North American savvy Mexico.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:08 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..
Noun....the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

Cheers..


Since we're on this subject of cabotage, there's an international "in-transit" terminal currently under construction at the Tijuana Airport south of San Diego which can easily be accessed from the US side of the border using the CBX bridge. There was an entire thread about the possibility of "almost cabotage" that could happen there: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1431465&p=21671953&hilit=CBX#p21671953 It should be completed by the end of 2022.

British Airways might be able to fly LHR-JFK-TIJ or TIJ-JFK-LHR in about two to three years. People on the San Diego side of the border could possibly use a British carrier (or some other non-US carrier) to effectively fly to New York and back someday.

I doubt BA would act on that opportunity but another carrier such as Norwegian might. Flights in/out of TIJ are already being marketed as being for San Diego w/CBX.

As pointed out repeatedly in your linked thread that is still an international flight, and would require passing through US customs/immigration on arrival at both TIJ (if trying to enter US side) and the US port (eg JFK). Nobody in San Diego is going to go through all that when they can just take a no hassle domestic flight from SAN. The “in transit” facility is to avoid having to go through Mexican customs/immigration if your intention is to cross the bridge over to the US.
 
cedarjet
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:20 pm

alfa164 wrote:
And yet, on the route I flew, the competition is not "easyJet, Ryanair, and Norwegian"; it was Brussels Airlines, which, unfortunately, was full... and BA had lots of open seats. That tells a story in itself...

Brussels Airways who have about 20 planes and can’t make a penny in profit with any of them are not the competition
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
afgeneral
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:22 pm

maybe they can exchange 9th freedom rights for chlorinated chicken
 
cedarjet
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:43 pm

afgeneral wrote:
maybe they can exchange 9th freedom rights for chlorinated chicken

Not going to have a choice on the chicken, GM food and sky high drug prices alas
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
3AWM
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:58 pm

Polot wrote:
Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


After Brexit the UK will become a 3rd country and a comprehensive open skies agreement already exists between the US and EU allowing stops at intermediate points. As I understand it if a suitable open skies agreement was formed between the US and UK any US airline could serve any EU country via a stop in the UK. This would include the right to transfer to different (smaller?) aircraft in the UK. This would add up to a US airline being able to set up a defacto Euro hub in the UK which could be attractive to US airlines, it might also be attractive to the UK government wanting to promote international routes out of secondary airports.
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:08 pm

3AWM wrote:
Polot wrote:
Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


After Brexit the UK will become a 3rd country and a comprehensive open skies agreement already exists between the US and EU allowing stops at intermediate points. As I understand it if a suitable open skies agreement was formed between the US and UK any US airline could serve any EU country via a stop in the UK. This would include the right to transfer to different (smaller?) aircraft in the UK. This would add up to a US airline being able to set up a defacto Euro hub in the UK which could be attractive to US airlines, it might also be attractive to the UK government wanting to promote international routes out of secondary airports.

US airlines had have full 5th freedom rights from the UL as part of the US/EU open skies for over a decade now. That means they can fly between EU countries with full traffic flights (just not within one country). Note how many 5th freedom routes they actually operate. No US airline is going to want to set up a to hub in the U.K. serving the rest of the EU. The US3 all have European partners. US LCCs would have no desire to join the European low cost bloodbath against Ryanair, Easyjet, and Wizzair.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cedarjet
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:09 pm

3AWM wrote:
Polot wrote:
Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


After Brexit the UK will become a 3rd country and a comprehensive open skies agreement already exists between the US and EU allowing stops at intermediate points. As I understand it if a suitable open skies agreement was formed between the US and UK any US airline could serve any EU country via a stop in the UK. This would include the right to transfer to different (smaller?) aircraft in the UK. This would add up to a US airline being able to set up a defacto Euro hub in the UK which could be attractive to US airlines, it might also be attractive to the UK government wanting to promote international routes out of secondary airports.

First of all there’s no reason for the EU to grant rights from the UK to the EU for USA carriers. And US carriers don’t want that anyway, remember both Pan Am and TWA used to have short haul hubs at LHR, and FRA (PA) and CDG (TW); when UA and AA took over their euro ops, they couldn’t dump those unprofitable and clunky tag ons fast enough. And pax would rather fly nonstop, which on most city pairs, they can.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
TYWoolman
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:14 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Love to Britain and the British. But entertaining the topic: is British Airways or England on record fighting for the US3 against the ME3? Doubt it. A prerequisite to even entertain a grain of sand of cabotage must be the consideration of that airline's country's historical stance on fighting for U.S. aviation interests. But the day this is allowed is the day the U.S. doesn't care about national security. The airline industry in effect is an extension of our armed forces in many ways.


Define “US Aviation Interests”. Does it include everyone who benefits from aviation (including non-aviation companies and consumers), or is it limited to US airlines and their employees?


Strong U.S. airlines benefit everyone. I don't see how cabotage can benefit the U.S. that deregulation itself can't do and has done better.
 
vedatil4
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:15 pm

Polot wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
reltney wrote:
It’s called cabotage it will not be allowed in the US. It’s an unfair trade practice. Do you think Ryan Air would like Jet blue, or spirit to come to Ireland...
Cabotage..
Noun....the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.

Cheers..


Since we're on this subject of cabotage, there's an international "in-transit" terminal currently under construction at the Tijuana Airport south of San Diego which can easily be accessed from the US side of the border using the CBX bridge. There was an entire thread about the possibility of "almost cabotage" that could happen there: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1431465&p=21671953&hilit=CBX#p21671953 It should be completed by the end of 2022.

British Airways might be able to fly LHR-JFK-TIJ or TIJ-JFK-LHR in about two to three years. People on the San Diego side of the border could possibly use a British carrier (or some other non-US carrier) to effectively fly to New York and back someday.

I doubt BA would act on that opportunity but another carrier such as Norwegian might. Flights in/out of TIJ are already being marketed as being for San Diego w/CBX.

As pointed out repeatedly in your linked thread that is still an international flight, and would require passing through US customs/immigration on arrival at both TIJ (if trying to enter US side) and the US port (eg JFK). Nobody in San Diego is going to go through all that when they can just take a no hassle domestic flight from SAN. The “in transit” facility is to avoid having to go through Mexican customs/immigration if your intention is to cross the bridge over to the US.


You're right. A person coming from London heading to San Diego via TIJ would go through double US immigration check. But a San Diego person heading to JFK through TIJ on BA (or more likely Volaris) only once at JFK. Only once on JFK-TIJ return also.

The terminal is being built. So we'll find out which airlines will take advantage in the fall of 2022. Of course I doubt BA since they already fly direct to SAN.
 
3AWM
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:26 pm

cedarjet wrote:
First of all there’s no reason for the EU to grant rights from the UK to the EU for USA carriers.


They already have as after Brexit the UK will be a third country not a member state and treated as an intermediate point in the US-EU openskies agreement.

cedarjet wrote:
And US carriers don’t want that anyway, remember both Pan Am and TWA used to have short haul hubs at LHR, and FRA (PA) and CDG (TW); when UA and AA took over their euro ops, they couldn’t dump those unprofitable and clunky tag ons fast enough. And pax would rather fly nonstop, which on most city pairs, they can.


Different times, but there are many cities in the EU that don't have direct service nor are big enough to get the required widebody service so are served via a codeshare with an EU carrier.
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:32 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
Polot wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:

Since we're on this subject of cabotage, there's an international "in-transit" terminal currently under construction at the Tijuana Airport south of San Diego which can easily be accessed from the US side of the border using the CBX bridge. There was an entire thread about the possibility of "almost cabotage" that could happen there: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1431465&p=21671953&hilit=CBX#p21671953 It should be completed by the end of 2022.

British Airways might be able to fly LHR-JFK-TIJ or TIJ-JFK-LHR in about two to three years. People on the San Diego side of the border could possibly use a British carrier (or some other non-US carrier) to effectively fly to New York and back someday.

I doubt BA would act on that opportunity but another carrier such as Norwegian might. Flights in/out of TIJ are already being marketed as being for San Diego w/CBX.

As pointed out repeatedly in your linked thread that is still an international flight, and would require passing through US customs/immigration on arrival at both TIJ (if trying to enter US side) and the US port (eg JFK). Nobody in San Diego is going to go through all that when they can just take a no hassle domestic flight from SAN. The “in transit” facility is to avoid having to go through Mexican customs/immigration if your intention is to cross the bridge over to the US.


You're right. A person coming from London heading to San Diego via TIJ would go through double US immigration check. But a San Diego person heading to JFK through TIJ on BA (or more likely Volaris) only once at JFK. Only once on JFK-TIJ return also.

The terminal is being built. So we'll find out which airlines will take advantage in the fall of 2022. Of course I doubt BA since they already fly direct to SAN.

And they have to go through zero international checks on SAN-JFK. And won’t require a passport. Guess which airport San Diegans will choose to get to JFK?

The terminal is to facilitate more nonstop international (that is, non-US) flights by taking advantage of San Diego’s stronger international O&D, not for American destinations where SAN will always win out over TIJ (not just because of the whole passport/FIS thing, but because domestic flights are cheaper than international ones with international fees)
 
alfa164
Posts: 3518
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:06 pm

cedarjet wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
And yet, on the route I flew, the competition is not "easyJet, Ryanair, and Norwegian"; it was Brussels Airlines, which, unfortunately, was full... and BA had lots of open seats. That tells a story in itself...

Brussels Airways who have about 20 planes and can’t make a penny in profit with any of them are not the competition


So two European airlines, flying an identical route, are "not the competition"? Some people have a strange definition of competition...

:roll:

And, for the benefit of the ill-informed (or perhaps someone trying to deceive us), Brussels Airlines flies 48 places - well more than twice what you claim. It must be embarrassing to lie about facts that are easily discovered.
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Arion640
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:19 pm

If america opened up like Europe did to airlines, you would all enjoy higher standards of service, more flights and cheaper air fares. I think volaris USA would work wonders for passenger traffic.
 
DAL763ER
Posts: 531
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Lots of (deliberate) mischaracterising of BA short haul on here.


No mischaracterization - deliberate or otherwise - when even you admit BA is scraping the bottom-of-the-barrell in its intra-Europe flights:

cedarjet wrote:
They do buy-on-board in economy, and have (like all European carriers) economy style seating in Club Europe (with a blocked middle seat) because their average flight time is an hour (and max three hours — ATH, DME) and the competition is easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian,


And yet, on the route I flew, the competition is not "easyJet, Ryanair, and Norwegian"; it was Brussels Airlines, which, unfortunately, was full... and BA had lots of open seats. That tells a story in itself...

:roll:


ScottB wrote:
And if you want an experience comparable to BA's short-haul product, just get on NK, F9, or G4.


:checkmark:


You know which part of the story you're leaving out? Brussels Airlines has 2-3 flights a day, BA has 4-6. Implying that a few empty seats on a flight means people aren't flying BA for their service is ridiculous.

You also forgot to mention when you flew to BRU...if in winter, flights aren't all that full in Europe...
 
vedatil4
Posts: 118
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:22 pm

Polot wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Polot wrote:
As pointed out repeatedly in your linked thread that is still an international flight, and would require passing through US customs/immigration on arrival at both TIJ (if trying to enter US side) and the US port (eg JFK). Nobody in San Diego is going to go through all that when they can just take a no hassle domestic flight from SAN. The “in transit” facility is to avoid having to go through Mexican customs/immigration if your intention is to cross the bridge over to the US.


You're right. A person coming from London heading to San Diego via TIJ would go through double US immigration check. But a San Diego person heading to JFK through TIJ on BA (or more likely Volaris) only once at JFK. Only once on JFK-TIJ return also.

The terminal is being built. So we'll find out which airlines will take advantage in the fall of 2022. Of course I doubt BA since they already fly direct to SAN.

And they have to go through zero international checks on SAN-JFK. And won’t require a passport. Guess which airport San Diegans will choose to get to JFK?

The terminal is to facilitate more nonstop international (that is, non-US) flights by taking advantage of San Diego’s stronger international O&D, not for American destinations where SAN will always win out over TIJ (not just because of the whole passport/FIS thing, but because domestic flights are cheaper than international ones with international fees)


I agree on both points you raised.

I'm hoping for a side effect of "effectively cabotage" flights out of TIJ during SAN's overnight curfew time when you can't fly out of San Diego. I'm OK with the passport requirement, extra US immigration check, and a foreign carrier taking me to the east coast if the total cost is cheaper (including the international fees) or if the flight times are better. I know it won't be for most.

To get back to topic, after Brexit, I think the British may be OK with more immigration and customs checks during their travels. Double US immigration and customs check may be OK with that crowd to get to San Diego? If there's an empty seat on a hypothetical TIJ-JFK or JFK-TIJ segment, it could be filled by someone from southern California.
 
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Polot
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:25 pm

Arion640 wrote:
If america opened up like Europe did to airlines, you would all enjoy higher standards of service, more flights and cheaper air fares. I think volaris USA would work wonders for passenger traffic.

“Volaris USA” is Frontier. Indigo Partners is not going to open up a new airline in competition with themselves.
 
lx2iah
Posts: 79
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:27 pm

BA “technically” does this via their oneworld partner American Airlines (via their BA/AA codeshare flight number).
 
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GlobalAirways
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:31 pm

Maybe the sky will be red... Maybe I'll win the Lottery too!
There is little difference in people, but that little difference makes a big difference. The little difference is attitude. The big difference is whether it is positive or negative. ~ W. Clement Stone
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 242
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Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:44 pm

I finished my career with a Jones Act ship owner. Don't kid yourself. They want the same thing for shipping too. That is the ability to carry cargo (passengers in your case) between 2 US Ports. Right now the Jones Act requires that cargo has to be carried on US built and US crewed vessels. They want to use most likely Chinese built ships (cause the Brits don't build freighters anymore) with a hand full of European Officers (maybe) and the rest of the crew from who knows where. They would not have the same regulatory oversight and tax liability that US companies must comply with. After shipping and airlines, what next? Truck drivers from wherever at $10 a day?
Try competing against that.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    csgnyc
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:48 pm

    Cabotage issues aside, isn't this basically a maneuver for BA to try to take over AA? Why else would they need to fly JFK-STL, for example -- they have a joint venture that covers LHR-JFK-STL. Is there any money to be made by flying JFK-STL on their own metal? Would they keep a fleet of narrowbodies or regionals at JFK to fly roundtrips to the STL, MSP, MCIs of the world? Keep in mind that if they pick up domestic passengers, the LHR-JFK-STL passengers would have to disembark and clear customs and immigration at JFK.

    Assuming BA doesh't try to takeover AA, the only markets BA could potentially do profitably would be the nonstop transcontinental flights, for which a widebody is at least feasible and some people would pay for a real BA premium class.
     
    MonAmQB
    Posts: 29
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:10 pm

    One solution if BA really wants to do so... Britain can join the US to form the United States of Atlantic (another "USA"). Then BA can fly in the new USA without all this Cabotage discussion.
    Last edited by MonAmQB on Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    KlimaBXsst
    Posts: 841
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:10 pm

    Airline Lebensraum

    With a tacit okay from AA! Cause what is good for BA domestically is good for AA internationally.
    Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
     
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    par13del
    Posts: 10263
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:15 pm

    Arion640 wrote:
    If america opened up like Europe did to airlines, you would all enjoy higher standards of service, more flights and cheaper air fares. I think volaris USA would work wonders for passenger traffic.

    So who is always driving this USA issue, the consumers in the USA or the foreign carriers who see the USA carriers making so much money on their domestic routes versus international?
     
    Kilopond
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:24 pm

    reltney wrote:
    [...]
    Cabotage..
    Noun....the right to operate sea, air, or other transport services within a particular territory.
    restriction of the operation of sea, air, or other transport services within or into a particular country to that country's own transport services.[...]


    This cabotage had been executed in Europe for a long time as far as railways and ships are concerned. For instance, rivers like Danube, Rhine or Elbe are de facto international, free-for-all waterways.
     
    KlimaBXsst
    Posts: 841
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:29 pm

    par13del wrote:
    Arion640 wrote:
    If america opened up like Europe did to airlines, you would all enjoy higher standards of service, more flights and cheaper air fares. I think volaris USA would work wonders for passenger traffic.

    So who is always driving this USA issue, the consumers in the USA or the foreign carriers who see the USA carriers making so much money on their domestic routes versus international?


    Cabotage:

    No way
    “OHell” no
    and NOT ever in any ones right or left mind.

    JV’s and partial ownership of regionals is about as far as this CABOTAGE sabotage idea of our domestic airline economy will ever get.
    Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
     
    airzona11
    Posts: 1745
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:33 pm

    Everyone wants access to the largest/most established domestic market in the world. With JV flying, the international flying is bluring together. As airlines look to growth, domestically/short haul EU, it is a crowed space with LCC, and the airlines have done rounds of cost cutting, need to find areas to grown revenue.

    Arion640 wrote:
    If america opened up like Europe did to airlines, you would all enjoy higher standards of service, more flights and cheaper air fares. I think volaris USA would work wonders for passenger traffic.


    Have you flown mainline US carriers and compared the offering? Free sandwich is the only item I can think of that one could interpret as superior. Onboard entertainment, leg room, Economy Plus, First Class, etc are all more favorable in the USv s EU. That is an illusion. The cheaper flights and alternatives exist as well.
     
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    FlyCaledonian
    Posts: 1974
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:50 pm

    The BA of Lord King and Sir Colin Marshall would have loved to fly US domestic. Hence attempts to merge/acquire UA and CO before they settled for a 25% stake in US.

    The BA of Willie Walsh has no interest in US domestic. The former ambassador is talking rubbish.
    Let's Go British Caledonian!
     
    alfa164
    Posts: 3518
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:11 am

    DAL763ER wrote:
    You also forgot to mention when you flew to BRU...if in winter, flights aren't all that full in Europe...


    Some are: the Brussels Airlines flights were full, the BA flights were half-empty. That tells the story.
    I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
    I have decided to be cremated....
     
    crownvic
    Posts: 2664
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    Re: British Airways interested in flying US Domestic Routes

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:14 am

    Polot wrote:
    There are a lot of international airlines that would love to fly US domestic. That doesn’t mean it will happen.

    Brexit actually weakens UK’s chances of that ever happening. What would the UK offer in return for the US that is near comparable? UK domestic rights lol?


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