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cirrusdragoon
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Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:52 pm

It appears Air Georgian is on a bad trajectory course .

How sad for the employees, if only another Canadian carrier could potentially sign a capacity purchase agreement with them to expand their presence in central Canada and keep them afloat. On the other hand perhaps this is just a chapter in Canadian aviation that has to close for another to start. Wishing all the affected employees luck in their future endeavours.

https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... protection
Last edited by cirrusdragoon on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:58 pm

Not surprised given the AC decision to remove them as a branded feeder carrier
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:48 pm

The CPA business is cutthroat low margin work that makes you entirely dependent on the mainline carrier for survival.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:04 pm

The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:25 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D


If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.
 
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GCT64
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:58 pm

In general if you are a business that has only one customer (or one customer accounts for 90%+ of your revenue) and they stop using you, then you're pretty much dead as a business. I doubt that many companies could recover from that.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D


If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?
 
EFHK
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:50 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D


If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


The ones that actually have the demand to fill up the 19 seats of a B1900D for 300$+ one-way each
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:01 pm

EFHK wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


The ones that actually have the demand to fill up the 19 seats of a B1900D for 300$+ one-way each


an airline does not need to fill all 19 seats to turn a profit with 1900 ... all of these communities had service to Toronto in the past
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7418
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:07 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D


If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


Having done a lot of 1900 flights, BDL-YUL, it’s better to drive. It takes as long, the fares are ridiculous—$800+ and the reliability was terrible. The last time I did it—it cancelled in snow (YUL origination); next day, sold out, rebooked thru YYZ. Missed and TWO connect due to customs and security. That was the last flight out, so booked to BOS with company-provided car service to the office. 15 hours in transit which I could easily beat even in a snow storm.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


Having done a lot of 1900 flights, BDL-YUL, it’s better to drive. It takes as long, the fares are ridiculous—$800+ and the reliability was terrible. The last time I did it—it cancelled in snow (YUL origination); next day, sold out, rebooked thru YYZ. Missed and TWO connect due to customs and security. That was the last flight out, so booked to BOS with company-provided car service to the office. 15 hours in transit which I could easily beat even in a snow storm.


Not sure why you are bringing up Montreal - Hartford service
 
jimbo737
Posts: 561
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:23 am

crjflyboy wrote:
EFHK wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:


The ones that actually have the demand to fill up the 19 seats of a B1900D for 300$+ one-way each


an airline does not need to fill all 19 seats to turn a profit with 1900 ... all of these communities had service to Toronto in the past



They could make money if they sold 1/19 seats on each 60 min flight they operate at $3,500 a seat.

Then again, they’d go bankrupt if they sold 19/19 seats at $150 a seat.

Loads mean nothing.

Local O&D requires a community of interest. Business, friends and family etc.

Poll 100 people on the street in Toronto asking if they have a business relationship or friends and family in Albany, Rochester or Syracuse.

Then ask about Windsor, Sault or Sudbury.

Big difference.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:14 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:


Having done a lot of 1900 flights, BDL-YUL, it’s better to drive. It takes as long, the fares are ridiculous—$800+ and the reliability was terrible. The last time I did it—it cancelled in snow (YUL origination); next day, sold out, rebooked thru YYZ. Missed and TWO connect due to customs and security. That was the last flight out, so booked to BOS with company-provided car service to the office. 15 hours in transit which I could easily beat even in a snow storm.


Not sure why you are bringing up Montreal - Hartford service


Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:39 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Having done a lot of 1900 flights, BDL-YUL, it’s better to drive. It takes as long, the fares are ridiculous—$800+ and the reliability was terrible. The last time I did it—it cancelled in snow (YUL origination); next day, sold out, rebooked thru YYZ. Missed and TWO connect due to customs and security. That was the last flight out, so booked to BOS with company-provided car service to the office. 15 hours in transit which I could easily beat even in a snow storm.


Not sure why you are bringing up Montreal - Hartford service


Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport


Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?
 
Airontario
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:54 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Not sure why you are bringing up Montreal - Hartford service


Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport


Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?


Probably comperable to fares on routes Air Canada operates with no competitions. Eg. IND, MKE, STL, etc.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:01 am

Airontario wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport


Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?


Probably comperable to fares on routes Air Canada operates with no competitions. Eg. IND, MKE, STL, etc.


Those cities are much further distance by a factor of 2 or 3

no comparison
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7418
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:36 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Not sure why you are bringing up Montreal - Hartford service


Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport


Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?


BDL-YUL that’s about the normal fare for business travel. A friend just did it last week for that fare; I’ve seen $1200
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:41 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Like SYR, ALB, ROC; an airline must offer competitive service and it is hard to do over those distances to cities with little business connections. 300 mile flights at $800 simple can’t compete with surface transport


Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?


BDL-YUL that’s about the normal fare for business travel. A friend just did it last week for that fare; I’ve seen $1200


again ... why are you bringing up Hartford - Montreal ?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7418
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:52 am

Because it’s a city that is served by air and driving very nicely competes with it. ALB, SYR does NOT need service and probably couldn’t sustain as BDL has seen service reduced and there’s some actual aviation business reasons for it.

Air Georgian was the BDL-YUL carrier
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:54 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Because it’s a city that is served by air and driving very nicely competes with it. ALB, SYR does NOT need service and probably couldn’t sustain as BDL has seen service reduced and there’s some actual aviation business reasons for it.

Air Georgian was the BDL-YUL carrier


Who knew you were airport director for both SYR & ALB

ROC, SYR & ALB all have a giant body of water in front of them ... Lake Ontario
 
hz747300
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:09 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Airontario wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Where is the 800 dollar fare coming from ?


Probably comperable to fares on routes Air Canada operates with no competitions. Eg. IND, MKE, STL, etc.


Those cities are much further distance by a factor of 2 or 3

no comparison


I looked at the YYZ-ROC flight to visit family in the Rochester suburbs, and the prices were ridiculous for a family of five. It wasn't $800 but it was over $400 per ticket. Driving is the alternative, but a cross-border rental seemed complicated. Anyways, I doubt they can survive on their own, I can just hope they get "Swoop"-ed up.
Keep on truckin'...
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Having done a lot of 1900 flights, BDL-YUL, it’s better to drive. It takes as long, the fares are ridiculous—$800+ and the reliability was terrible. The last time I did it—it cancelled in snow (YUL origination); next day, sold out, rebooked thru YYZ. Missed and TWO connect due to customs and security. That was the last flight out, so booked to BOS with company-provided car service to the office. 15 hours in transit which I could easily beat even in a snow storm.

It depends. Like a lot of short-haul flying, when it works, it works and can be great and save a lot of time. But it's very sensitive to weather/IROPS and the short trips can turn into long journeys very quickly. Reliability is an issue. For whatever reason that flight seems to cancel at a much higher than average rate (based on my casual observations, at least once a week).

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Because it’s a city that is served by air and driving very nicely competes with it. ALB, SYR does NOT need service and probably couldn’t sustain as BDL has seen service reduced and there’s some actual aviation business reasons for it.

Air Georgian was the BDL-YUL carrier

The BDL route is hanging on with a Dash 8 now (1x daily as opposed to the old 3x B1900 service). Before I think it served high-yield O&D traffic, with three flights split throughout the day, but now I think its primary purpose is to feed AC's TATL flights. 1x daily in the middle of the day isn't going to work for a lot of O&D traffic.

Air Georgian flew YYZ-SYR and ROC up until very recently for AC. MDT and HPN are other short YYZ-US routes that have been dropped over the last several years by Air Georgian/AC. The former two routes really face competition from driving, but MDT and HPN are quite a bit further by car. But in those cases much larger nearby airports offered more options at much lower prices (at PHL and LGA, respectively).

ALB is the only one of the airports mentioned in this thread that has neither of those factors in play - it's far enough away from YYZ that driving isn't ideal for a lot of people, and there's no major airport within driving distance that would be an alternative departure point to get to YYZ. Though I do not have any recall of ALB-YYZ flights in recent memory. It's possible the local market just isn't there.
 
globetrotter29
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:53 pm

This summer AC switches to CRJs at BDL.
 
Oilman
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:42 pm

Why did Air Canada move away from Air Georgian?
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:15 pm

hz747300 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Airontario wrote:

Probably comperable to fares on routes Air Canada operates with no competitions. Eg. IND, MKE, STL, etc.


Those cities are much further distance by a factor of 2 or 3

no comparison


I looked at the YYZ-ROC flight to visit family in the Rochester suburbs, and the prices were ridiculous for a family of five. It wasn't $800 but it was over $400 per ticket. Driving is the alternative, but a cross-border rental seemed complicated. Anyways, I doubt they can survive on their own, I can just hope they get "Swoop"-ed up.


I never ever considered 1900 service to be used for tourists or family travel.

The main problem is the outrageous taxes and fees Canada imposes on airline tickets within, and to and from Canada.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:17 pm

Oilman wrote:
Why did Air Canada move away from Air Georgian?


Not known at this point ... assuming they just wanted to consolidate their regional feeders. US carriers have done the same for years.
 
uconn99
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:33 pm

globetrotter29 wrote:
This summer AC switches to CRJs at BDL.


This appears to be correct, May 1 BDL-YYZ 3x CRJ along with 1x BDL-YUL.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:25 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Those cities are much further distance by a factor of 2 or 3

no comparison


I looked at the YYZ-ROC flight to visit family in the Rochester suburbs, and the prices were ridiculous for a family of five. It wasn't $800 but it was over $400 per ticket. Driving is the alternative, but a cross-border rental seemed complicated. Anyways, I doubt they can survive on their own, I can just hope they get "Swoop"-ed up.


I never ever considered 1900 service to be used for tourists or family travel.

The main problem is the outrageous taxes and fees Canada imposes on airline tickets within, and to and from Canada.


The taxes really aren’t the problem. Look at WS trans border fares, where close-in tickets on short haul stuff can often be had for as little as $200 all-in. The problem is AC’s revenue management, which disincentivizes local traffic in order to funnel passengers onto its long haul services.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
crjflyboy
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:52 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
hz747300 wrote:

I looked at the YYZ-ROC flight to visit family in the Rochester suburbs, and the prices were ridiculous for a family of five. It wasn't $800 but it was over $400 per ticket. Driving is the alternative, but a cross-border rental seemed complicated. Anyways, I doubt they can survive on their own, I can just hope they get "Swoop"-ed up.


I never ever considered 1900 service to be used for tourists or family travel.

The main problem is the outrageous taxes and fees Canada imposes on airline tickets within, and to and from Canada.


The taxes really aren’t the problem. Look at WS trans border fares, where close-in tickets on short haul stuff can often be had for as little as $200 all-in. The problem is AC’s revenue management, which disincentivizes local traffic in order to funnel passengers onto its long haul services.


You do not know what you are talking about ....

https://www.flyporter.com/en/book-trave ... es-charges

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... ravellers/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 3616941712
 
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golfradio
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:24 pm

I remember the cadet program that was launched some time ago. If I remember, it was about 60K US for training and then transition to the right seat at AC express. I guess some of them must be worried now.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:09 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

I never ever considered 1900 service to be used for tourists or family travel.

The main problem is the outrageous taxes and fees Canada imposes on airline tickets within, and to and from Canada.


The taxes really aren’t the problem. Look at WS trans border fares, where close-in tickets on short haul stuff can often be had for as little as $200 all-in. The problem is AC’s revenue management, which disincentivizes local traffic in order to funnel passengers onto its long haul services.


You do not know what you are talking about ....

https://www.flyporter.com/en/book-trave ... es-charges

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... ravellers/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 3616941712


I’m quite familiar with the plethora of taxes and fees charged on both sides of the border. But when AC charges close to $1,000 one-way in the city pairs we are talking about here (which they do routinely), that’s not a tax or fee problem.

Heck, last summer on vacation with the family I flew UA YUL-ORD-BNA in F for about $100/person less than AC wanted for an unbundled coach fare with a connection in YYZ.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dr1980
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:28 am

Does anyone have a sense of why Georgian got pushed out of Atlantic Canada B1900 ops in favour of EVAS?
Dave/CYHZ
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:10 am

dr1980 wrote:
Does anyone have a sense of why Georgian got pushed out of Atlantic Canada B1900 ops in favour of EVAS?


Who knows, but based on what I’ve seen EVAS try and pull, Georgian would be my preference of the two. :o
Last edited by CFM565A1 on Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:15 am

I would think that they just have to pull the shutters at this point. Other than the management who seem destined to try to go down with this sinking ship, most of the employees have found work elsewhere contrary to reports. The pilots for example got a glorious (unfair) deal of retaining their seniority at Jazz.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:30 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why did Air Canada move away from Air Georgian?


Not known at this point ... assuming they just wanted to consolidate their regional feeders. US carriers have done the same for years.


From reading posts on AvCanada it seems like Georgian had a lot of staffing & management issues. They were constantly advertising for staff for oen thing. Whether that's why Air Canada pulled the pin I don't know but it's evidence of a less then healthy company. Not a lot of sadness being expressed over the end of Georgian.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:53 am

Canuck600 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why did Air Canada move away from Air Georgian?


Not known at this point ... assuming they just wanted to consolidate their regional feeders. US carriers have done the same for years.


From reading posts on AvCanada it seems like Georgian had a lot of staffing & management issues. They were constantly advertising for staff for oen thing. Whether that's why Air Canada pulled the pin I don't know but it's evidence of a less then healthy company. Not a lot of sadness being expressed over the end of Georgian.


Very much correct along with fleet MTC/reliability... I can’t count the amount of times I was called in to work to operate a flight that GGN couldn’t do for AC.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
StrandedAtMKG
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Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:13 am

crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
The only way for them to survive is to do cross border service from the USA to Toronto relying on O& D traffic using their 1900 D


If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:18 am

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


ExpressJet tried it for a while as well, when CO told them they didn't need all the lift, but XJT would be responsible for the leases on the planes anyway.
From my cold, dead hands
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:32 am

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

If that's the best plan they should go right into liquidation. There is no money to be made on transborder, non-interline traffic with a B1900 fleet. Every U.S. major destination within 90 minutes B1900 flying time has better, more frequent carriers with far superior equipment.


SYR has no service

https://syrairport.org/airport-guide/destinations/

ROC has no service

https://www2.monroecounty.gov/airport-airlines.php

ALB has no service

http://albanyairport.com/flights/airlines

How many more do you need ?


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes
 
kalvado
Posts: 3073
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:27 am

crjflyboy wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes

Upstate NY to YYZ/YUL/YOW has to compete with (a)driving, (b)train servcie, (c) bus service - and their combination.
On the same token, ALB-BUF air service may have a better chance of attracting customers - but doesn't actually operate for quite a while.
 
Canuck600
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:20 am

crjflyboy wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes


Ever think there is a reason nobody is flying these routes? Maybe because people with a actual idea of the costs involved & the potential market have looked at the #'s & decided it's not viable? If somebody isn't doing a route there is usually a pretty good reason why.
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:52 am

Canuck600 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes


Ever think there is a reason nobody is flying these routes? Maybe because people with a actual idea of the costs involved & the potential market have looked at the #'s & decided it's not viable? If somebody isn't doing a route there is usually a pretty good reason why.


Again correct, and in fact, the routes were served by GGN for AC in the past on the 1900 and were closed a long time ago.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:01 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why did Air Canada move away from Air Georgian?


Not known at this point ... assuming they just wanted to consolidate their regional feeders. US carriers have done the same for years.

I think it’s pretty well know why they ditched those guys as others have pointed out. Consistently inconsistent or not good. They couldn’t do their schedule half the time and had to get bailed out by the other guys like Jazz. With that Air Canada just saw them as a liability and a waste of money so why bother with that anymore.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
Flewthereyep
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:08 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:14 pm

They had the contract pulled because they couldn't commit to the simple act of signing a reasonable deal with their pilots. We were without a contract for over 2 years and within 48 hours of a legal strike position. Air Canada mainline pulled the plug to protect their stock prices and put GGN out of its sorry existence.

All who worked there have already moved on or will find far better work elsewhere.

Air Georgian was owned and run by a bunch of scumbag car salesmen sucking off the teet of a major airline looking to cut costs. Good riddance and better times for all involved coming!
 
Airontario
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:58 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:


Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes


You seem very worked up about this. The fact is AC had service to all these destinations in the past. First on Dash8s through Jazz/Air Ontario, and then with Georgian on B1900s. If AC couldn't make these work with the tremendous feed they have at YYZ, how do you think an independant carrier with limited to no feed at YYZ would do?

As has been mentioned before, if there was a business case for these routes to exist, they would.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14974
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:36 pm

Airontario wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Read up on the short and painful existence of Independence Air (formerly known as Atlantic Coast Airlines). They were a regional carrier for United, but UA dropped their contract. ACA had no choice but to turn around and reinvent themselves as an independent carrier, trying to carve out little niches like you're suggesting. It took 17 months for United (and Delta, American, and Northwest) to squash them like a bug. Being a regional carrier with a CPA with one of the legacies and then having that CPA pulled is essentially a death sentence.


LOL ... ARE YOU ON DRUGS ?

Their would be ZERO competition on these routes


You seem very worked up about this. The fact is AC had service to all these destinations in the past. First on Dash8s through Jazz/Air Ontario, and then with Georgian on B1900s. If AC couldn't make these work with the tremendous feed they have at YYZ, how do you think an independant carrier with limited to no feed at YYZ would do?

As has been mentioned before, if there was a business case for these routes to exist, they would.


I don't know if any or all of these routes would work with a focus on O&D traffic, but it's true that AC didn't really price them to maximize the size of the O&D market. So while it's true that AC couldn't make them work in its model for transborder, it does not necessarily follow that a carrier hyper-focused on O&D couldn't make them work. All of these routes leak a lot to cars, busses, and in some cases trains.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:19 pm

A lot of talk in here about Air Georgian just picking up a bunch of smaller cities and starting their own service. Remember, ZX doesn't have any ticket selling or commercial infrastructure of any kind. It's not a "Field of Dreams" situation where if you simply fly a route, people will buy tickets - selling your own seats is a major undertaking in itself, not something you can simply just "do".
 
raylee67
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:08 pm

Switching to become an independent carrier is a huge undertaking. It means building the infrastructure that the airline never had, with limited time and capital. To my memory, only one commuter carrier has made a real attempt to do this and that's ACA, after being dumped by United. It became Independence Air and did not survive much longer after becoming "independent". The cost and effort to become independent was just too huge and drained a lot of capital at the time the company needs to preserve cash.

But what about talking to WestJet and becoming a WestJet Link carrier? WestJet has a lot of gaps in its coverage east of Manitoba and it can really use some CRJs and 1900s to boost its network to cover smaller places in Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic region.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
User avatar
CFM565A1
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:50 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Switching to become an independent carrier is a huge undertaking. It means building the infrastructure that the airline never had, with limited time and capital. To my memory, only one commuter carrier has made a real attempt to do this and that's ACA, after being dumped by United. It became Independence Air and did not survive much longer after becoming "independent". The cost and effort to become independent was just too huge and drained a lot of capital at the time the company needs to preserve cash.

But what about talking to WestJet and becoming a WestJet Link carrier? WestJet has a lot of gaps in its coverage east of Manitoba and it can really use some CRJs and 1900s to boost its network to cover smaller places in Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic region.


They only have a few 1900s at this point with no staff to run the company for another CPA.

One of the reasons why AC cut ties with GGN is that they felt the 19 seater without an FA couldn’t compete against PASCO on the GGN routes.
C172-M/N/P/R/S , PA-28-180, P2006T, PA-34-200T, B1900D, DH8A/C ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER/M8, MD-82/83, 757-200/300, 767-300, A330-300, 787-9, 777-300ER, F28-4000.
 
raylee67
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Air Georgian heading towards bankruptcy protection in Canada

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:57 am

CFM565A1 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Switching to become an independent carrier is a huge undertaking. It means building the infrastructure that the airline never had, with limited time and capital. To my memory, only one commuter carrier has made a real attempt to do this and that's ACA, after being dumped by United. It became Independence Air and did not survive much longer after becoming "independent". The cost and effort to become independent was just too huge and drained a lot of capital at the time the company needs to preserve cash.

But what about talking to WestJet and becoming a WestJet Link carrier? WestJet has a lot of gaps in its coverage east of Manitoba and it can really use some CRJs and 1900s to boost its network to cover smaller places in Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic region.


They only have a few 1900s at this point with no staff to run the company for another CPA.

One of the reasons why AC cut ties with GGN is that they felt the 19 seater without an FA couldn’t compete against PASCO on the GGN routes.


Oh, they don't have the CRJ any more? Didn't know that. Thanks for the update. But even with just the 1900, that would be useful for Westjet to open up small destinations? Westjet Link on the west coast is only Saab 340.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS

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